Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> The reported 10KW utilizing 167 panels sounds off though

Someone donated to my church about sixty 2.2'x4' panels from the 1990's
and they only produce about 40W each.  Could be those were similar 60W
panels.  Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mike Scott via EV
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 9:56 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante
With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

This caught my eye:

"Ronald Reagan moves into
the White House and immediately has the Carter PV panels ripped off its
roof)."

Jimmie Carter installed 32 thermal panels that provided hot water for the
cafeteria, not electricity. Also, various accounts place the removal in
1986 before required roof repairs, after which they were not replaced.
Half of the actual panels are now at Maine's Unity College, the other half
are being donated to various institutions, such as The Smithsonian, The
Carter Library and, of all things, the Solar Science and Technology Museum
in Dezhou, China.

The first PV panels on the White House grounds were installed by the Park
Service while GW Bush was out of town. They are still there. (The reported
10KW utilizing 167 panels sounds off though.)

President Obama installed 6.3 KW of PV on the actual White House.

Here are some sources for part of this:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carter-white-house-solar-panel-
array/
https://understandsolar.com/white-house-solar-panels/

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Lee Hart via EV 
wrote:

> Paul Dove via EV wrote:
>
>> Many researchers have been attempting this. MIT claims 100% increase
>> in capacity.
>>
>
> It might help to put this in the perspective of research scientists.
> They look at some pair of reactants that look promising for a battery.
> They can calculate the voltage that would be produced. They can
> calculate how many electrons will be stored and released per atom.
> They know the atomic weight of the reactants, and so can figure out
> the theoretical watthour capacity and watts per kilogram.
>
> So they make a few laboratory tests, on a very small scale. Holy cow!
> It's twice as good as any existing battery! Call the patent attorneys!
>
> But... you haven't taken into account the current-carrying conductors
> to bring the power out. Or the separator, that has to keep the
> reactants apart (or your battery would be a short circuited). Or the
> packaging. All these add considerably to the size and weight.
>
> Then, how are you going to make it? And what will it cost? Things you
> can do in the laboratory by hand can be damnably difficult to scale up.
>
> These are the reasons why no real battery ever comes anywhere close to
> providing its theoretical yield.
>
> --
> "I've discovered a way to predict the winner of horse race! First, we
> assume the horses are spheres rolling on a frictionless track..."
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Mike Scott via EV]

This caught my eye:

"Ronald Reagan moves into
the White House and immediately has the Carter PV panels ripped off its
roof)."

Jimmie Carter installed 32 thermal panels that provided hot water for the
cafeteria, not electricity. Also, various accounts place the removal in
1986 before required roof repairs, after which they were not replaced. Half
of the actual panels are now at Maine's Unity College, the other half are
being donated to various institutions, such as The Smithsonian, The Carter
Library and, of all things, the Solar Science and Technology Museum in
Dezhou, China.

The first PV panels on the White House grounds were installed by the Park
Service while GW Bush was out of town. They are still there. (The reported
10KW utilizing 167 panels sounds off though.)

President Obama installed 6.3 KW of PV on the actual White House.

Here are some sources for part of this:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carter-white-house-solar-panel-array/
https://understandsolar.com/white-house-solar-panels/

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Paul Dove via EV wrote:
>
>> Many researchers have been attempting this. MIT claims 100% increase in
>> capacity.
>>
>
> It might help to put this in the perspective of research scientists. They
> look at some pair of reactants that look promising for a battery. They can
> calculate the voltage that would be produced. They can calculate how many
> electrons will be stored and released per atom. They know the atomic weight
> of the reactants, and so can figure out the theoretical watthour capacity
> and watts per kilogram.
>
> So they make a few laboratory tests, on a very small scale. Holy cow! It's
> twice as good as any existing battery! Call the patent attorneys!
>
> But... you haven't taken into account the current-carrying conductors to
> bring the power out. Or the separator, that has to keep the reactants apart
> (or your battery would be a short circuited). Or the packaging. All these
> add considerably to the size and weight.
>
> Then, how are you going to make it? And what will it cost? Things you can
> do in the laboratory by hand can be damnably difficult to scale up.
>
> These are the reasons why no real battery ever comes anywhere close to
> providing its theoretical yield.
>
> --
> "I've discovered a way to predict the winner of horse race! First, we
> assume the horses are spheres rolling on a frictionless track..."
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> /NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Lee Hart via EV]

Paul Dove via EV wrote:

Many researchers have been attempting this. MIT claims 100% increase in 
capacity.


It might help to put this in the perspective of research scientists. They look 
at some pair of reactants that look promising for a battery. They can calculate 
the voltage that would be produced. They can calculate how many electrons will 
be stored and released per atom. They know the atomic weight of the reactants, 
and so can figure out the theoretical watthour capacity and watts per kilogram.


So they make a few laboratory tests, on a very small scale. Holy cow! It's twice 
as good as any existing battery! Call the patent attorneys!


But... you haven't taken into account the current-carrying conductors to bring 
the power out. Or the separator, that has to keep the reactants apart (or your 
battery would be a short circuited). Or the packaging. All these add 
considerably to the size and weight.


Then, how are you going to make it? And what will it cost? Things you can do in 
the laboratory by hand can be damnably difficult to scale up.


These are the reasons why no real battery ever comes anywhere close to providing 
its theoretical yield.


--
"I've discovered a way to predict the winner of horse race! First, we assume the 
horses are spheres rolling on a frictionless track..."

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Paul Dove via EV]

Many researchers have been attempting this. MIT claims 100% increase in 
capacity.

http://news.mit.edu/2017/toward-solid-lithium-batteries-0202

Sent from my iPad

> On May 27, 2017, at 10:44 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> 
> The article was about battery researcher John Goodenough.
> 
> What was, in particular, causing my negative disposition was that the article
> 
> stated huge improvements, all simultaneously, of nearly every aspect of 
> battery performance.
> 
> That is just ridiculous, it is hard enough to improve just one performance 
> benchmark at a time.
> 
> If the claims are true, then it really would be a miracle battery.
> 
> Al
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 5/27/2017 12:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:
>> >>It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.<<
>> 
>> Totally agree, but what article(s) was Alan reading that caused his 
>> disposition to be negative?
>> 
>> I was curious to try to understand where he was coming from with respect to 
>> what he was reading.
>> 
>>> On 5/26/17, 7:03 PM, Michael Ross wrote:
>>> It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>>Alan,
>>> 
>>>What article are you referencing?
>>> 
>>>I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the
>>>form of a question:  "Is this another one?"
>>> 
>>>With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor,
>>>his or her reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to
>>>market.   It provides a better picture of the situation.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery
>>>breakthroughs" announced that never got into production.
>>> 
>>>This is another one. :-/
>>> 
>>> 
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>>>)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>>)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>>> Thomas A. Edison 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>>> *Warren Buffet*
>>> 
>>> Michael E. Ross
>>> (919) 585-6737 Land
>>> (919) 576-0824  Mobile and 
>>> Google Phone
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Hi Al,

I appreciate you replying.

I read a long time ago that the maximum potential for Lithium Ion 
batteries was between 1500 and 3000 whr/kg.  If "3 times the energy 
density" of this new battery is based on 150 whr/kg, then they are up in 
the 450 whr/kg area.


Goodenough and Braga are partnering with others to do testing and 
further development which is another good sign in that they have 
something instead of asking for investor money.


Considering their reputation(s),  I think I would give them more benefit 
of your doubt.  There are a lot of scams out there but this does not 
read like another one.


But we will see what the testers and developers determine.

I wish them good fortune.

On 5/27/17, 11:44 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

The article was about battery researcher John Goodenough.

What was, in particular, causing my negative disposition was that the 
article


stated huge improvements, all simultaneously, of nearly every aspect 
of battery performance.


That is just ridiculous, it is hard enough to improve just one 
performance benchmark at a time.


If the claims are true, then it really would be a miracle battery.

Al




On 5/27/2017 12:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:
>>It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. 
Goodenough.<<


Totally agree, but what article(s) was Alan reading that caused his 
disposition to be negative?


I was curious to try to understand where he was coming from with 
respect to what he was reading.


On 5/26/17, 7:03 PM, Michael Ross wrote:

It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:


Alan,

What article are you referencing?

I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the
form of a question:  "Is this another one?"

With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor,
his or her reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to
market.   It provides a better picture of the situation.



On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:


Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery
breakthroughs" announced that never got into production.

This is another one. :-/


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Thomas A. Edison 



A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  
Mobile and Google Phone


michael.e.r...@gmail.com 





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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Alan Arrison via EV]

The article was about battery researcher John Goodenough.

What was, in particular, causing my negative disposition was that the 
article


stated huge improvements, all simultaneously, of nearly every aspect of 
battery performance.


That is just ridiculous, it is hard enough to improve just one 
performance benchmark at a time.


If the claims are true, then it really would be a miracle battery.

Al




On 5/27/2017 12:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:
>>It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. 
Goodenough.<<


Totally agree, but what article(s) was Alan reading that caused his 
disposition to be negative?


I was curious to try to understand where he was coming from with 
respect to what he was reading.


On 5/26/17, 7:03 PM, Michael Ross wrote:

It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:


Alan,

What article are you referencing?

I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the
form of a question:  "Is this another one?"

With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor,
his or her reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to
market.   It provides a better picture of the situation.



On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:


Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery
breakthroughs" announced that never got into production.

This is another one. :-/


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--
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Thomas A. Edison 



A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile 
and Google Phone


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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[paul dove via EV]

The article referenced by the title of this thread

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 27, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV  wrote:
> 
> >>It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.<<
> 
> Totally agree, but what article(s) was Alan reading that caused his 
> disposition to be negative?
> 
> I was curious to try to understand where he was coming from with respect to 
> what he was reading.
> 
>> On 5/26/17, 7:03 PM, Michael Ross wrote:
>> It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.
>> 
>> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV > > wrote:
>> 
>>Alan,
>> 
>>What article are you referencing?
>> 
>>I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the
>>form of a question:  "Is this another one?"
>> 
>>With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor,
>>his or her reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to
>>market.   It provides a better picture of the situation.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery
>>breakthroughs" announced that never got into production.
>> 
>>This is another one. :-/
>> 
>> 
>>___
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>>
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>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA
>>)
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>>
>>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA
>>)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>> Thomas A. Edison 
>> 
>> 
>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>> *Warren Buffet*
>> 
>> Michael E. Ross
>> (919) 585-6737 Land
>> (919) 576-0824  Mobile and 
>> Google Phone
>> 
>> michael.e.r...@gmail.com 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

>>It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.<<

Totally agree, but what article(s) was Alan reading that caused his 
disposition to be negative?


I was curious to try to understand where he was coming from with respect 
to what he was reading.


On 5/26/17, 7:03 PM, Michael Ross wrote:

It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:


Alan,

What article are you referencing?

I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the
form of a question:  "Is this another one?"

With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor,
his or her reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to
market.   It provides a better picture of the situation.



On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:


Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery
breakthroughs" announced that never got into production.

This is another one. :-/


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To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison 



A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile 
and Google Phone


michael.e.r...@gmail.com 





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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[paul dove via EV]

While these things have occurred in the past. I believe the most important 
factor is the source of the claim. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 26, 2017, at 9:52 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>> what would [be Goodenough's] motivation to make an outrageous or bogus
>>> claim.  It is not like he is shopping his invention to venture
>>> capitalist.
>> 
>> I doubt that he's doing anything like that.  But all kinds of bad things can
>> nuke a promising product between the lab and the marketplace...
> 
> Thanks David, for an excellent summary. And these are just *some* of the ways 
> that promising new battery technologies have been kept from becoming 
> mainstream.
> 
> There are many more as well! Besides the ones David mentioned, here are a few 
> more examples that come to my mind: Bipolar lead-acid (Electrosource 
> Horizon), nickel-cadmium (several manufacturers), nickel-zinc (Evercel), 
> nickel-iron (Edison), and the zinc-chlorohydrate (Energy Development 
> Associates).
> 
>> The range numbers sound a lot like the Leaf's, don't they? It seems as if 20
>> years haven't really changed much in that respect, they've mostly just
>> brought the price down to affordable levels.
> 
> The price reduction is basically the result of manufacturing large enough 
> quantities. It can be argued that lithium "won" because manufacturers found 
> enough customers who were willing to pay an enormous price premium (laptop 
> computers). That attracted investors, and paid for the R&D and factories to 
> build them. Once this had been done, the price came down so they could expand 
> into other markets (EVs).
> 
> -- 
> Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
> violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
> in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Michael Ross via EV]

It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
wrote:

> Alan,
>
> What article are you referencing?
>
> I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the form of
> a question:  "Is this another one?"
>
> With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor, his or her
> reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to market.   It
> provides a better picture of the situation.
>
>
>
> On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>
>>
>> Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery breakthroughs"
>> announced that never got into production.
>>
>> This is another one. :-/
>>
>>
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>> /NEDRA)
>>
>>
>>
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>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile and
Google Phone

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

what would [be Goodenough's] motivation to make an outrageous or bogus
claim.  It is not like he is shopping his invention to venture
capitalist.


I doubt that he's doing anything like that.  But all kinds of bad things can
nuke a promising product between the lab and the marketplace...


Thanks David, for an excellent summary. And these are just *some* of the ways 
that promising new battery technologies have been kept from becoming mainstream.


There are many more as well! Besides the ones David mentioned, here are a few 
more examples that come to my mind: Bipolar lead-acid (Electrosource Horizon), 
nickel-cadmium (several manufacturers), nickel-zinc (Evercel), nickel-iron 
(Edison), and the zinc-chlorohydrate (Energy Development Associates).



The range numbers sound a lot like the Leaf's, don't they? It seems as if 20
years haven't really changed much in that respect, they've mostly just
brought the price down to affordable levels.


The price reduction is basically the result of manufacturing large enough 
quantities. It can be argued that lithium "won" because manufacturers found 
enough customers who were willing to pay an enormous price premium (laptop 
computers). That attracted investors, and paid for the R&D and factories to 
build them. Once this had been done, the price came down so they could expand 
into other markets (EVs).


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Alan,

What article are you referencing?

I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the form 
of a question:  "Is this another one?"


With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor, his or 
her reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to market.   It 
provides a better picture of the situation.




On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:


Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery breakthroughs" 
announced that never got into production.


This is another one. :-/


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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 May 2017 at 23:11, Brandon Hines via EV wrote:

> what would [be Goodenough's] motivation to make an outrageous or bogus
> claim.  It is not like he is shopping his invention to venture
> capitalist. 

I doubt that he's doing anything like that.  But all kinds of bad things can 
nuke a promising product between the lab and the marketplace.  

The development works in the lab model, but doesn't scale to a useful size.  
They can't find a way to produce it practically or affordably.  It needs 
some kind of material that only comes from politically unstable parts of the 
world.  A couple of prototypes blow up or burn, and the negative PR kills it 
(see: Ford Ecostar and the sodium sulfur battery*).  Something else better 
or cheaper comes along before it's developed, and grabs the potential 
market.  

They're working with public funding, and some rich person sees a threat to 
his established market and lobbies the government to take the funding away 
(see: Koch brothers and solar energy).  Or new politicians come along and 
take it away just because that's what they do (see: Ronald Reagan moves into 
the White House and immediately has the Carter PV panels ripped off its 
roof).  The market changes and the invention becomes a white elephant, at 
least in the short term (see: cheap fuel and late 1970s - early 1980s EV and 
battery research).

The developers team up with larger partners who argue over goals, push out 
the originators, bring in their own guys, and run it into the ground (see: 
Renaissance Cars Tropica / Zebra / Xebra).  Or the inventor sells the rights 
to some large corporation which then sits on it, or sells it someone else 
who sits on it (see Ovonics).  

The list goes on and on and on.  The system doesn't like change, and wires 
around it in any way it can.

Even when the system works, practical application can take a long time.  The 
first experimental lithium ion batteries were developed in 1980, IIRC.  The 
first commercial lithium ion battery was released 11 years later.  Lion 
didn't become all that common in (expensive) portable electronic gadgets 
until at least 1992 or 1993.

FWIW, the first Lion-powered EV I know of was the Altra EV, a rather sizable 
wagon based on a Japanese-market Nissan.  Nissan built 200 of them between 
1997 and 2001.  Some of our older California correspondents may remember the 
Altra.  I wouldn't be surprised if Bruce Parmentier got to drive one.  ;-) 

Altras used Sony lithium-cobalt and Hitachi lithium- manganese modules. The 
range was stated as "up to" 120 or 140 miles, with 70- 100 miles considered 
more realistic.  

The range numbers sound a lot loke the Leaf's, don't they? It seems as if 20 
years haven't really changed much in that respect, they've mostly just 
brought the price down to affordable levels.

*Ford developed the sodium-sulfur battery in 1965, but they didn't actually 
use it in an EV until 1991.  That was the Ecostar van.  Two of the pre-
production samples caught fire while charging.  That made a good excuse to 
abandon the project.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Brandon Hines via EV]

The difference is that this inventor is one of the few people on the
planet who has a track record of creating a "battery breakthrough" that
made it into production and revolutionized the world of energy storage. 
While the odds may still be against Goodenough's new invention, I think
that he has earned the right to be taken seriously. 

Also, what would hismotivation to make an outrageous or bogus claim.  It
is not like he is shopping his invention to venture capitalist.  He is a
researcher who has already solidified a name for himself in the annals
of history.  At this point any unfounded claims would do more to tarnish
his reputation than to bring him any benefits.


On 05/25/2017 09:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>
> Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery breakthroughs"
> announced that never got into production.
>
> This is another one. :-/
>
>
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Alan Arrison via EV]

Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery breakthroughs" 
announced that never got into production.


This is another one. :-/


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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 May 2017 at 10:35, len moskowitz via EV wrote:

> Energy density is what gives batteries its lifecycle between charges,
> so a battery with a very high energy density will, for example, allow
> an electric car to drive further between charges. 

Ignoring the twisted syntax in the sentence above ("what gives batteries 
its"?  Sheesh), both energy density and specific energy are important.  

So is a third unit.  What do you call the unit defining kWh per dollar or 
per euro?  

PS - Kudos to Goodenough.  I hope that I'm able to still do things that 
benefit society when I'm 94 years old.  I also hope this battery scales and 
can actually be affordably manufactured.  Over the years I've seen entirely 
too many "battery breakthroughs" announced that never got into production.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[paul dove via EV]

Great news but that story broke back in January.
I imagine we are years away from being able to purchase them but this is a game 
changer for sure.

  From: len moskowitz via EV 
 To: EVDL  
 Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 9:35 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With 
Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable
   
https://www.designnews.com/electronics-test/lithium-ion-battery-inventor-ups-ante-advanced-solid-state-rechargeable/8222876656822

-

Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State 
Rechargeable

The engineer who co-invented the lithium-ion battery has led a team of 
researchers that’s developed a solid-state battery cell that could be 
the answer to providing safe, fast-charging, and long-lasting 
rechargeable energy storage for a range of devices,

By: Elizabeth Montalbano
May 23, 2017

The engineer who co-invented the lithium-ion battery is set to 
revolutionize the field again. 94-year-old John Goodenough—professor in 
the Cockrell School of Engineering at The University of Texas at 
Austin--has led a team of researchers that’s developed a solid-state 
battery cell that could be the answer to providing safe, fast-charging, 
and long-lasting rechargeable energy storage for a range of devices, 
including electric vehicles (EVs).

Goodenough, along with Cockrell School senior research fellow Maria 
Helena Braga and researcher Andrew Murchison, have developed a 
noncombustible battery that has a long cycle life, high volumetric 
energy density, and fast rates of charge and discharge. The engineers 
describe their new technology in a recent paper published in the journal 
Energy & Environmental Science .

Murchison said it was Braga that was chiefly behind the new design, 
which has at least three times as much energy density as today’s 
lithium-ion batteries. Energy density is what gives batteries its 
lifecycle between charges, so a battery with a very high energy density 
will, for example, allow an electric car to drive further between 
charges.

  [Photo] John Goodenough
[Caption] 94-year-old John Goodenough (left), professor in the Cockrell 
School of Engineering at The University of Texas at Austin, has led a 
team of researchers that’s developed a solid-state battery cell that 
could be the answer to providing safe, fast-charging, and long-lasting 
rechargeable energy storage for a range of devices, including electric 
vehicles. Cockrell School senior research fellow Maria Helena Braga 
(center) and researcher Andrew Murchison (right) were pivotal members of 
the team. (Source: The University of Texas at Austin)

  The battery also allows for a greater number of charging and 
discharging cycles, which equates to longer-lasting batteries, as well 
as a faster rate of recharge that’s clocked in minutes rather than 
hours.
“Helena Braga is the really force behind all of this this,” he said, 
while Goodenough served as editor and writer of data, and Murchison 
himself the experimentalist.

Researchers used an alkali-metal anode—comprised of lithium, sodium or 
potassium--which increases the energy density of a cathode and delivers 
a long cycle life. In experiments, the researchers’ cells demonstrated 
more than 1,200 cycles with low cell resistance, they said.

The team chose a solid-state battery cell rather than a liquid one 
firstly because they are safer and don’t have the explosive potential 
that lithium-ion batteries have, Murchison said. Additionally, “lithium- 
and sodium-metal-based solid-state battery cells inherently have greater 
concentrations of active materials and therefore higher volumetric 
energy densities,” he said.

Today’s lithium-ion batteries use liquid electrolytes to transport the 
lithium ions between the anode and the cathode. If a battery cell is 
charged too quickly, it can cause what are called dendrites--or whiskers 
of metal--to form and cross through the liquid electrolytes, causing a 
short circuit that can lead to explosions and fires.

In the researchers’ design, the lithium-ion metal is plated on the 
cathode during discharge, which is different in a typical lithium-ion 
battery, in which the lithium is inserted in the cathode interstitial 
sites, Murchison said.

The battery design also differs from conventional batteries in other 
ways, he said. “Reversely to
lithium-ion batteries, the capacity of these cells will not depend on 
the cathode’s capacity but on the anodes--which is much greater,” 
Murchison said. “The solid-state glass electrolyte enables us to made a 
safer battery cell. Due to homogenous plating, no dendrites will be 
formed.”

The battery also can be used in higher temperatures—up to 200 degrees 
Celsius—which makes it well suited to providing the power source for 
EVs, he said.

“Today’s lithium batteries do not like heat,” he said. For example, 
early versions of the Nissan Leaf would not start in the mid-day heat of 
Phoenix in the summer because the battery was too hot after

[EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[len moskowitz via EV]

https://www.designnews.com/electronics-test/lithium-ion-battery-inventor-ups-ante-advanced-solid-state-rechargeable/8222876656822

-

Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State 
Rechargeable


The engineer who co-invented the lithium-ion battery has led a team of 
researchers that’s developed a solid-state battery cell that could be 
the answer to providing safe, fast-charging, and long-lasting 
rechargeable energy storage for a range of devices,


By: Elizabeth Montalbano
May 23, 2017

The engineer who co-invented the lithium-ion battery is set to 
revolutionize the field again. 94-year-old John Goodenough—professor in 
the Cockrell School of Engineering at The University of Texas at 
Austin--has led a team of researchers that’s developed a solid-state 
battery cell that could be the answer to providing safe, fast-charging, 
and long-lasting rechargeable energy storage for a range of devices, 
including electric vehicles (EVs).


Goodenough, along with Cockrell School senior research fellow Maria 
Helena Braga and researcher Andrew Murchison, have developed a 
noncombustible battery that has a long cycle life, high volumetric 
energy density, and fast rates of charge and discharge. The engineers 
describe their new technology in a recent paper published in the journal 
Energy & Environmental Science .


Murchison said it was Braga that was chiefly behind the new design, 
which has at least three times as much energy density as today’s 
lithium-ion batteries. Energy density is what gives batteries its 
lifecycle between charges, so a battery with a very high energy density 
will, for example, allow an electric car to drive further between 
charges.


 [Photo] John Goodenough
[Caption] 94-year-old John Goodenough (left), professor in the Cockrell 
School of Engineering at The University of Texas at Austin, has led a 
team of researchers that’s developed a solid-state battery cell that 
could be the answer to providing safe, fast-charging, and long-lasting 
rechargeable energy storage for a range of devices, including electric 
vehicles. Cockrell School senior research fellow Maria Helena Braga 
(center) and researcher Andrew Murchison (right) were pivotal members of 
the team. (Source: The University of Texas at Austin)


 The battery also allows for a greater number of charging and 
discharging cycles, which equates to longer-lasting batteries, as well 
as a faster rate of recharge that’s clocked in minutes rather than 
hours.
“Helena Braga is the really force behind all of this this,” he said, 
while Goodenough served as editor and writer of data, and Murchison 
himself the experimentalist.


Researchers used an alkali-metal anode—comprised of lithium, sodium or 
potassium--which increases the energy density of a cathode and delivers 
a long cycle life. In experiments, the researchers’ cells demonstrated 
more than 1,200 cycles with low cell resistance, they said.


The team chose a solid-state battery cell rather than a liquid one 
firstly because they are safer and don’t have the explosive potential 
that lithium-ion batteries have, Murchison said. Additionally, “lithium- 
and sodium-metal-based solid-state battery cells inherently have greater 
concentrations of active materials and therefore higher volumetric 
energy densities,” he said.


Today’s lithium-ion batteries use liquid electrolytes to transport the 
lithium ions between the anode and the cathode. If a battery cell is 
charged too quickly, it can cause what are called dendrites--or whiskers 
of metal--to form and cross through the liquid electrolytes, causing a 
short circuit that can lead to explosions and fires.


In the researchers’ design, the lithium-ion metal is plated on the 
cathode during discharge, which is different in a typical lithium-ion 
battery, in which the lithium is inserted in the cathode interstitial 
sites, Murchison said.


The battery design also differs from conventional batteries in other 
ways, he said. “Reversely to
lithium-ion batteries, the capacity of these cells will not depend on 
the cathode’s capacity but on the anodes--which is much greater,” 
Murchison said. “The solid-state glass electrolyte enables us to made a 
safer battery cell. Due to homogenous plating, no dendrites will be 
formed.”


The battery also can be used in higher temperatures—up to 200 degrees 
Celsius—which makes it well suited to providing the power source for 
EVs, he said.


“Today’s lithium batteries do not like heat,” he said. For example, 
early versions of the Nissan Leaf would not start in the mid-day heat of 
Phoenix in the summer because the battery was too hot after the car was 
turned off for several hours, Murchison said. A solution to that is that 
“air conditioning can be added to the battery pack, but this is 
expensive and heavy,” he added.


The new battery also is a “perfect fit” for compact, low-cost energy 
storage for devices like sensors, micro security cameras, displays, and 
other porta