Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-24 Thread Michael Ross via EV 
I think the average household uses 29kW hours a day.  My house did that
pre-PV installation.  So I will posit that my peak kW is also average.

Duke says I make peak (never seen higher), peak demand of 7.5 kW at some
time during a billing period.  Not sure what drives that, but I guess they
must be right, right?


On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 3:11 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 20 Nov 2014 at 13:42, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > Amen, at 100kW, a single Tesla charging demands the grid provide the
> > equivalent of ONE HUNDRED homes average power.
>
> Well, maybe that's what you get if you take the kWh consumed per month and
> divide by the number of hours in a month.  Maybe I'm missing something, but
> as I see it, that's not what matters.  It's about the peak load.
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-21 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
On 20 Nov 2014 at 13:42, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> Amen, at 100kW, a single Tesla charging demands the grid provide the
> equivalent of ONE HUNDRED homes average power.

Well, maybe that's what you get if you take the kWh consumed per month and 
divide by the number of hours in a month.  Maybe I'm missing something, but 
as I see it, that's not what matters.  It's about the peak load.

A house with just a few lights on might use only a few hundred or a few 
dozen watts.  One with aircon running flat out against a 115 degree day, or 
electric baseboards struggling to overcome a -20 night, of course needs 
more.  

You might have an electric water heater or clothes dryer or range running.  
How about when you're drying the table linens while you wash dishes in the 
dishwasher, cook thanksgiving dinner on all 4 surface units, and bake the 
turkey in the oven?  Now there's a peak load.  (Are you also charging your 
EV?)

The main electrical panel of most houses can supply as much as 48kW (200 
amps at 240 volts).  Some newer big houses have double that rating.  So we 
already have those potential loads of nearly 100kW connected to the grid.

Conversely, is that charging station filling up 100kW Teslas 24 hours a day? 
Probably not, at least not yet.  Like your home, its load varies with what 
it's charging.

A 100kW charge should also cost the EV driver significantly more per kWh 
than a 20kW charge, because (1) it costs the station more to supply it and 
(2) it's worth more to the customer.  These higher costs will naturally 
limit its use.

A reasonable (and affordable) high power charging station would also use 
load leveling strategies.  That way it could take energy from the grid at 
low peak (and low energy cost) times, and use it for charging EVs at other 
times.

If we get to where we're charging EVs at 100kW at a charging station that 
looks like the ICEV filling stations around here at rush hour - OK, that 
might be a problem.  (Talk about an EV adoption success!)  But I doubt that 
that's going to happen for a long, long time, if ever.

Or am I missing your point?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread Roland via EV 
   
Nothing new here.  

 

Sometime ago, I contacted a company in Europe that supplies supercapacitors 
that are use to run city buses.  The buses runs a 7 mile loop and can charge 
the capacitors back at the bus depot in 5 to 10 minutes or from a overhead 
power connection that the bus slides into at some bus stops. 

 

The capacitors fill the entire length of the bus in the compartments below the 
passenger compartment like are Greyhound buses have.  The capacitors slid in on 
a rail system like we use on equipment rack systems that plug into a power bus 
bar that runs down the center of the bus.

 

This installation system on these buses was first use with gel cells that plug 
into a track in the bottom of a battery box which also plug into the center bus 
bar. If any cell had a fault, it would eject upward off the track which a 
shorting bar that shunted the bad cell out.

 

Back at the bus barn, the cell it self can be replace, by just pulling it out 
and pushing in a new one, or the whole battery cell case can be slid out and 
replace. 

 

The supercapacitors uses the same method of installation and replacement.  

 

The factory cost back in the 80's that could replace my battery pack with the 
supercapacitors to the same voltage and equal ampere hour was $39,000.00 for 
about a 20 mile range.

 

Roland 

 

   


- Original Message - 

From: paul dove via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 10:35 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV



Nothing is impossible with enough time and money but as it stands today the 
current power distribution cannot supply the desired power.

You are also limited but the voltage of the car. 


My car for instance is max 160V. So you would need 100 Amps to charge it in an 
hour.
600 amps to charge in 10 minutes.

Even if the charge station could handle it my car wires won't.

Same with your example you would still need over 300 amps at 400 volts to 
charge a leaf in 10 minutes or am I missing something?
Or did I do the math wrong?




 From: Cor van de Water via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> 
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV
 

"cannot" is an absolute and dangerous statement. Incidentally it is
untrue,
but let's do some math first:

Presume that we *don't* use a buffer battery (AKA dump charge battery)
and all power is directly drawn from the local grid to show worst-case:

If a Leaf pulls up with a totally empty battery and needs to recharge to
80% (which is the max that you can do typically for fast-charge) then
you need less than 20kWh.
For that energy to be delivered in 10 mins, you need 120kW.
The standard mid-voltage overhead wiring that distributes power
throughout town typically works at voltages around 11-22kV, so you are
talking about a current of less than 11 Amp of mid-voltage supply. This
is a significant amount of power, but nothing difficult for the power
distribution, you just need a new tap directly from the mid-voltage to a
(new) transformer on the premises of the charging station. Similar to
what a commercial building would require. Or a new street with a few
dozen houses.

See - the fast charge stations that Tesla is putting in everywhere? They
draw about 100kW per charger, since they charge the Tesla pack in 1/2h
so if Tesla has already done this, why are you saying "cannot"?

In my opinion, it is simply an engineering question and as it appears,
it has already been solved.

Note that if you meant "cannot be done at home" then there is indeed the
issue of the power that a typical home is connected with, usually not
more than 25kW (240V 200Amp connections are common in USA, but the
typical "pole pig" transformer is only supposed to do 25kW continuously
een though it can be overloaded to 50kW without immediate problems) so
then you would require a dump pack if you "need" to charge faster than
in 1 hour.

In Europe a typical home is either connected to single phase 230V with
at least a 25Amp fuse, optionally upgraded to 35Amp or you can request
the power company to put in all 3 fuses to give you 400V (3-phase) at a
minimum of 25A, which would give you access to at minimum 5.7kW and for
3-phase it becomes at least 17kW (the 3-phase wiring is run to each
electricity meter inside a home, you only need to add the wiring from
meter to the 3-phase outlet and re-distribute the breakers across the 3
phases, then the power company will swap out the meter and you are set.
This is routinely done when you cook electric or use power tools).

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV 
Amen, at 100kW, a single Tesla charging demands the grid provide the
equivalent of ONE HUNDRED homes average power.  This is a ludicrous
investment in Copper wire, transformers and electrical distribution
equipment just to deliver in 20 minutes, what one home's wiring could
provide in one hour.

Such demand for triple the speed at ONE NUNDRED TIMES THE INFRASTRUCTURE
COST is not sustainable.  Hence, why such fast chargers are going to have to
eventually do their own energy storage on site to not place such peak
demands on the grid.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 7:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

The problem is not charging time. The problem is the electrical power grid
cannot supply the energy to charge a car in 10 minutes

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 20, 2014, at 3:54 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>
>
> http://paultan.org/2014/11/15/battery-free-electric-cars/
> Battery-free electric cars possible with graphene-based
> supercapacitors, according to research By Gregory Sze / 15 November
> 2014
>
> [image
> http://s2.paultan.org/image/2013/10/Tesla-Model-S-05.jpg
> Tesla Model S-05
> ]
>
> A study conducted by researchers at Rice University and the Queensland
> University of Technology have resulted in the creation of a
> graphene-based supercapacitor film that could possibly replace the
> need for a conventional battery in electric cars.
>
> Construction for the supercapacitor consists of two layers of graphene
> with an electrolyte layer sandwiched in the middle – creating a thin
> and durable film that is able to disperse large amounts of energy in a
> short amount of time. Being made from graphene allows for the layer of
> carbon to measure in at one atom thick.
>
> Naturally, this would help with the packaging of the vehicle as the
> film can be incorporated into different parts of the car – from the
> body panels to the roof and even the doors. Another added benefit is
> the fact that carbon is more easily sourced compared to lithium,
> allowing for lower entry costs in terms of manufacturing.
>
> Another immediate benefit of the supercapacitor film technology is
> apparent in charging time. According to the researchers, the system is
> able to achieve a full charge within minutes rather than the required
> few hours of a more conventional battery.
>
> With the inclusion of the film, researchers are aiming for a future
> where electric cars will no longer require a batter. Instead
> developing a system capable of a maximum range of 500 kilometres –
> more or less the same as a petrol-powered car.
>
> “In the future, it is hoped the supercapacitor will be developed to
> store more energy than a Li-Ion battery while retaining the ability to
> release its energy up to 10 times faster,” adds Jinzhang Liu, one of lead
> researchers.
> [© paultan.org]
> ...
> http://www.techtimes.com/articles/19844/20141110/lighweight-graphene-b
> ased-supercapacitors-may-boost-power-and-range-of-electric-cars.htm
> Lighweight, graphene-based supercapacitors may boost power and range
> of electric cars By Nicole Arce | November 10, 2014 ...
> http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/transportation/advanced-cars/graphe
> nebased-supercapacitors-take-another-crack-at-allelectric-vehicles
> Graphene-based Supercapacitors Take Another Crack at All-electric
> Vehicles By Dexter Johnson  7 Nov 2014 ...
> http://www.loadthegame.com/2014/11/13/battery-free-electric-cars-may-b
> ecome-real-5-years/ Battery-free electric cars may become real in 5
> years
> by: Emily Smith  November 13, 2014
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor
> Supercapacitors
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.j
> tp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVLN%2Bbrucedp2%26d
> ays%3D0%26sort%3Ddate
>
> http://www.ferret.com.au/articles/news/super-capacitor-breakthrough-to
> -boost-power-of-electric-cars-n2519064
> Super capacitor breakthrough to boost power of electric cars
>
> http://www.ecnmag.com/news/2014/11/supercapacitors-combine-regular-bat
> teries-boost-power-electric-cars "Supercapacitors" combine with
> batteries to boost the power of EVs ...
> http://gadgets.ndtv.com/science/news/electric-cars-could-soon-be-charg
> ed-by-their-own-bodies-617650
>
> http://www.ibtimes.com/wireless-electric-rail-begins-testing-kaohsiung
> -taiwan-worlds-first-completely-cable-1722488
> Taiwan's $.5B World's 1st Cable-Free Supercapacitor Light-rail System
> +
> EVLN: 123 N_American Soul EVs s

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread Lee Hart via EV 

The problem is not charging time. The problem is the electrical
power grid cannot supply the energy to charge a car in 10 minutes


Actually, the *real* problem is that this press release was only "idiot 
investor" bait. Every time anyone comes out with any improvement in 
battery technology, they automatically insert "will make electric cars 
practical" into their PR. It sucks in gullible investors.


Dozens of these "miracle battery breakthroughs" are announced every 
year. And have been for over 100 years! I'll bet you can't find *even 
one* that ever came true.


Put them in the same category as the ones that claim "miracle pill stops 
aging" and "vote for me and I'll fix the government".

--
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread Cor van de Water via EV 
The cable used for Fast Charging a Leaf uses 2 AWG conductors,
I have seen similar cable used to connect commercial (Hughes) EV motor
for the S10 truck, running 250 Amp for extended periods of time, so
apparently we are in the ballpark here.

I understand that if we would want to have a fast-charger on every city
block, the existing power grid would be loaded higher and needs
investment in more capacity.
That is why already today the power company wants people with EV to
register (when switching to ToU tariff) so they know where the load is
growing.
Besides, the power company is used to adding load in the form of new
subdivisions, so for them it is simply an engineering problem, nothing
they are not already doing.

If you are adding fast-charge capability, you'd need to bring out your
pack wiring in appropriately sized wires, so the charger can actually
dump all that current into your batteries instead of burning up
inadequate wiring that was never designed for this job. Your controller
probably draws the same current, so you are already running that wiring
in your EV - what is new, besides finding an appropriate connector and
installing the wiring?

As I said, it is an engineering challenge. Things change. My grandfather
was reading by candle light. It used to be not common that houses were
connected to the electric grid. Now you don't think about flipping a
switch and the light coming on. Fast charging is no different then the
next (small) step,
even though 99% of the time you don't need it and overnight
slow-charging from an outlet in your garage or a standard J1772 at work
can do the job.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via
EV
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 9:36 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their
7credit-EV

Nothing is impossible with enough time and money but as it stands today
the current power distribution cannot supply the desired power.

You are also limited but the voltage of the car. 


My car for instance is max 160V. So you would need 100 Amps to charge it
in an hour.
600 amps to charge in 10 minutes.

Even if the charge station could handle it my car wires won't.

Same with your example you would still need over 300 amps at 400 volts
to charge a leaf in 10 minutes or am I missing something?
Or did I do the math wrong?




 From: Cor van de Water via EV 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their
7credit-EV
 

"cannot" is an absolute and dangerous statement. Incidentally it is
untrue,
but let's do some math first:

Presume that we *don't* use a buffer battery (AKA dump charge battery)
and all power is directly drawn from the local grid to show worst-case:

If a Leaf pulls up with a totally empty battery and needs to recharge to
80% (which is the max that you can do typically for fast-charge) then
you need less than 20kWh.
For that energy to be delivered in 10 mins, you need 120kW.
The standard mid-voltage overhead wiring that distributes power
throughout town typically works at voltages around 11-22kV, so you are
talking about a current of less than 11 Amp of mid-voltage supply. This
is a significant amount of power, but nothing difficult for the power
distribution, you just need a new tap directly from the mid-voltage to a
(new) transformer on the premises of the charging station. Similar to
what a commercial building would require. Or a new street with a few
dozen houses.

See - the fast charge stations that Tesla is putting in everywhere? They
draw about 100kW per charger, since they charge the Tesla pack in 1/2h
so if Tesla has already done this, why are you saying "cannot"?

In my opinion, it is simply an engineering question and as it appears,
it has already been solved.

Note that if you meant "cannot be done at home" then there is indeed the
issue of the power that a typical home is connected with, usually not
more than 25kW (240V 200Amp connections are common in USA, but the
typical "pole pig" transformer is only supposed to do 25kW continuously
een though it can be overloaded to 50kW without immediate problems) so
then you would require a dump pack if you "need" to charge faster than
in 1 hour.

In Europe a typical home is either connected to single phase 230V with
at least a 25Amp fuse, optionally upgraded to 35Amp or you can request
the power company to put in all 3 fuses to give you 400V (3-phase) at a
minimum of 25A, which would give you access to at minimum 5.7kW and for
3-phase it becomes at least 17kW (the 3-phase wiring is run to eac

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread paul dove via EV 
Nothing is impossible with enough time and money but as it stands today the 
current power distribution cannot supply the desired power.

You are also limited but the voltage of the car. 


My car for instance is max 160V. So you would need 100 Amps to charge it in an 
hour.
600 amps to charge in 10 minutes.

Even if the charge station could handle it my car wires won't.

Same with your example you would still need over 300 amps at 400 volts to 
charge a leaf in 10 minutes or am I missing something?
Or did I do the math wrong?




 From: Cor van de Water via EV 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV
 

"cannot" is an absolute and dangerous statement. Incidentally it is
untrue,
but let's do some math first:

Presume that we *don't* use a buffer battery (AKA dump charge battery)
and all power is directly drawn from the local grid to show worst-case:

If a Leaf pulls up with a totally empty battery and needs to recharge to
80% (which is the max that you can do typically for fast-charge) then
you need less than 20kWh.
For that energy to be delivered in 10 mins, you need 120kW.
The standard mid-voltage overhead wiring that distributes power
throughout town typically works at voltages around 11-22kV, so you are
talking about a current of less than 11 Amp of mid-voltage supply. This
is a significant amount of power, but nothing difficult for the power
distribution, you just need a new tap directly from the mid-voltage to a
(new) transformer on the premises of the charging station. Similar to
what a commercial building would require. Or a new street with a few
dozen houses.

See - the fast charge stations that Tesla is putting in everywhere? They
draw about 100kW per charger, since they charge the Tesla pack in 1/2h
so if Tesla has already done this, why are you saying "cannot"?

In my opinion, it is simply an engineering question and as it appears,
it has already been solved.

Note that if you meant "cannot be done at home" then there is indeed the
issue of the power that a typical home is connected with, usually not
more than 25kW (240V 200Amp connections are common in USA, but the
typical "pole pig" transformer is only supposed to do 25kW continuously
een though it can be overloaded to 50kW without immediate problems) so
then you would require a dump pack if you "need" to charge faster than
in 1 hour.

In Europe a typical home is either connected to single phase 230V with
at least a 25Amp fuse, optionally upgraded to 35Amp or you can request
the power company to put in all 3 fuses to give you 400V (3-phase) at a
minimum of 25A, which would give you access to at minimum 5.7kW and for
3-phase it becomes at least 17kW (the 3-phase wiring is run to each
electricity meter inside a home, you only need to add the wiring from
meter to the 3-phase outlet and re-distribute the breakers across the 3
phases, then the power company will swap out the meter and you are set.
This is routinely done when you cook electric or use power tools).

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via
EV
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 4:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their
7credit-EV

The problem is not charging time. The problem is the electrical power
grid cannot supply the energy to charge a car in 10 minutes

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 20, 2014, at 3:54 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> http://paultan.org/2014/11/15/battery-free-electric-cars/
> Battery-free electric cars possible with graphene-based
supercapacitors,
> according to research
> By Gregory Sze / 15 November 2014 
> 
> [image  
> http://s2.paultan.org/image/2013/10/Tesla-Model-S-05.jpg
> Tesla Model S-05
> ]
> 
> A study conducted by researchers at Rice University and the Queensland
> University of Technology have resulted in the creation of a
graphene-based
> supercapacitor film that could possibly replace the need for a
conventional
> battery in electric cars.
> 
> Construction for the supercapacitor consists of two layers of graphene
with
> an electrolyte layer sandwiched in the middle - creating a thin and
durable
> film that is able to disperse large amounts of energy in a short
amount of
> time. Being made from graphene allows for the layer of carbon to
measure in
> at one atom thick.
> 
> Naturally, this would help with the packaging of the vehicle as the
film can
> be incorporated into different parts of the car - from the body panels
to
> th

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread Cor van de Water via EV 
"cannot" is an absolute and dangerous statement. Incidentally it is
untrue,
but let's do some math first:

Presume that we *don't* use a buffer battery (AKA dump charge battery)
and all power is directly drawn from the local grid to show worst-case:

If a Leaf pulls up with a totally empty battery and needs to recharge to
80% (which is the max that you can do typically for fast-charge) then
you need less than 20kWh.
For that energy to be delivered in 10 mins, you need 120kW.
The standard mid-voltage overhead wiring that distributes power
throughout town typically works at voltages around 11-22kV, so you are
talking about a current of less than 11 Amp of mid-voltage supply. This
is a significant amount of power, but nothing difficult for the power
distribution, you just need a new tap directly from the mid-voltage to a
(new) transformer on the premises of the charging station. Similar to
what a commercial building would require. Or a new street with a few
dozen houses.

See - the fast charge stations that Tesla is putting in everywhere? They
draw about 100kW per charger, since they charge the Tesla pack in 1/2h
so if Tesla has already done this, why are you saying "cannot"?

In my opinion, it is simply an engineering question and as it appears,
it has already been solved.

Note that if you meant "cannot be done at home" then there is indeed the
issue of the power that a typical home is connected with, usually not
more than 25kW (240V 200Amp connections are common in USA, but the
typical "pole pig" transformer is only supposed to do 25kW continuously
een though it can be overloaded to 50kW without immediate problems) so
then you would require a dump pack if you "need" to charge faster than
in 1 hour.

In Europe a typical home is either connected to single phase 230V with
at least a 25Amp fuse, optionally upgraded to 35Amp or you can request
the power company to put in all 3 fuses to give you 400V (3-phase) at a
minimum of 25A, which would give you access to at minimum 5.7kW and for
3-phase it becomes at least 17kW (the 3-phase wiring is run to each
electricity meter inside a home, you only need to add the wiring from
meter to the 3-phase outlet and re-distribute the breakers across the 3
phases, then the power company will swap out the meter and you are set.
This is routinely done when you cook electric or use power tools).

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via
EV
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 4:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their
7credit-EV

The problem is not charging time. The problem is the electrical power
grid cannot supply the energy to charge a car in 10 minutes

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 20, 2014, at 3:54 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> http://paultan.org/2014/11/15/battery-free-electric-cars/
> Battery-free electric cars possible with graphene-based
supercapacitors,
> according to research
> By Gregory Sze / 15 November 2014 
> 
> [image  
> http://s2.paultan.org/image/2013/10/Tesla-Model-S-05.jpg
> Tesla Model S-05
> ]
> 
> A study conducted by researchers at Rice University and the Queensland
> University of Technology have resulted in the creation of a
graphene-based
> supercapacitor film that could possibly replace the need for a
conventional
> battery in electric cars.
> 
> Construction for the supercapacitor consists of two layers of graphene
with
> an electrolyte layer sandwiched in the middle - creating a thin and
durable
> film that is able to disperse large amounts of energy in a short
amount of
> time. Being made from graphene allows for the layer of carbon to
measure in
> at one atom thick.
> 
> Naturally, this would help with the packaging of the vehicle as the
film can
> be incorporated into different parts of the car - from the body panels
to
> the roof and even the doors. Another added benefit is the fact that
carbon
> is more easily sourced compared to lithium, allowing for lower entry
costs
> in terms of manufacturing.
> 
> Another immediate benefit of the supercapacitor film technology is
apparent
> in charging time. According to the researchers, the system is able to
> achieve a full charge within minutes rather than the required few
hours of a
> more conventional battery.
> 
> With the inclusion of the film, researchers are aiming for a future
where
> electric cars will no longer require a batter. Instead developing a
system
> capable of a maximum range of 500 kilometres - more or less the same
as a
> petrol-powered car.
> 
> "In the future, it i

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread Ben Goren via EV 
On Nov 20, 2014, at 5:04 AM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

> The problem is not charging time. The problem is the electrical power grid 
> cannot supply the energy to charge a car in 10 minutes

I think we've already had this conversation. The brute force solution is to 
have a similar battery in the charging station that gets charged however fast 
the grid can charge it, and the battery in the charging station dumps its 
charge to the one on the vehicle as fast as those two can handle it.

It would only be of interest to homeowners if the off-car battery was used to 
store excess rooftop solar electricity generation and for grid power outages 
and the like -- not a very large market, at least for now.

But it would very much be of interest to roadside charging stations. It's not 
hard to imagine such a place ripping out the underground gas tanks and 
replacing them with a similar volume of banks of batteries. So long as the 
station's grid connection can handle the _average_ daily current draw, with 
enough batteries the station can supply _peak_ current draws well in excess of 
the grid can without any trouble. The station only has to provide that peak 
power for a minute or two at a time, after all, and has all the rest of the 
time until the next car pulls up to recharge its own batteries from the grid.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread Paul Dove via EV 
The problem is not charging time. The problem is the electrical power grid 
cannot supply the energy to charge a car in 10 minutes

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 20, 2014, at 3:54 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> http://paultan.org/2014/11/15/battery-free-electric-cars/
> Battery-free electric cars possible with graphene-based supercapacitors,
> according to research
> By Gregory Sze / 15 November 2014 
> 
> [image  
> http://s2.paultan.org/image/2013/10/Tesla-Model-S-05.jpg
> Tesla Model S-05
> ]
> 
> A study conducted by researchers at Rice University and the Queensland
> University of Technology have resulted in the creation of a graphene-based
> supercapacitor film that could possibly replace the need for a conventional
> battery in electric cars.
> 
> Construction for the supercapacitor consists of two layers of graphene with
> an electrolyte layer sandwiched in the middle – creating a thin and durable
> film that is able to disperse large amounts of energy in a short amount of
> time. Being made from graphene allows for the layer of carbon to measure in
> at one atom thick.
> 
> Naturally, this would help with the packaging of the vehicle as the film can
> be incorporated into different parts of the car – from the body panels to
> the roof and even the doors. Another added benefit is the fact that carbon
> is more easily sourced compared to lithium, allowing for lower entry costs
> in terms of manufacturing.
> 
> Another immediate benefit of the supercapacitor film technology is apparent
> in charging time. According to the researchers, the system is able to
> achieve a full charge within minutes rather than the required few hours of a
> more conventional battery.
> 
> With the inclusion of the film, researchers are aiming for a future where
> electric cars will no longer require a batter. Instead developing a system
> capable of a maximum range of 500 kilometres – more or less the same as a
> petrol-powered car.
> 
> “In the future, it is hoped the supercapacitor will be developed to store
> more energy than a Li-Ion battery while retaining the ability to release its
> energy up to 10 times faster,” adds Jinzhang Liu, one of lead researchers.
> [© paultan.org]
> ...
> http://www.techtimes.com/articles/19844/20141110/lighweight-graphene-based-supercapacitors-may-boost-power-and-range-of-electric-cars.htm
> Lighweight, graphene-based supercapacitors may boost power and range of
> electric cars
> By Nicole Arce | November 10, 2014
> ...
> http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/transportation/advanced-cars/graphenebased-supercapacitors-take-another-crack-at-allelectric-vehicles
> Graphene-based Supercapacitors Take Another Crack at All-electric Vehicles
> By Dexter Johnson  7 Nov 2014
> ...
> http://www.loadthegame.com/2014/11/13/battery-free-electric-cars-may-become-real-5-years/
> Battery-free electric cars may become real in 5 years
> by: Emily Smith  November 13, 2014
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor
> Supercapacitors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For EVLN posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVLN%2Bbrucedp2%26days%3D0%26sort%3Ddate
> 
> http://www.ferret.com.au/articles/news/super-capacitor-breakthrough-to-boost-power-of-electric-cars-n2519064
> Super capacitor breakthrough to boost power of electric cars
> 
> http://www.ecnmag.com/news/2014/11/supercapacitors-combine-regular-batteries-boost-power-electric-cars
> "Supercapacitors" combine with batteries to boost the power of EVs
> ...
> http://gadgets.ndtv.com/science/news/electric-cars-could-soon-be-charged-by-their-own-bodies-617650
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/wireless-electric-rail-begins-testing-kaohsiung-taiwan-worlds-first-completely-cable-1722488
> Taiwan's $.5B World's 1st Cable-Free Supercapacitor Light-rail System
> +
> EVLN: 123 N_American Soul EVs sold in Oct> Charges Quick, Longer-Range
> 
> 
> {brucedp.150m.com}
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Supercapacitors-could-get-Tesla-their-7credit-EV-tp4672702.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
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[EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV

2014-11-20 Thread brucedp5 via EV 


http://paultan.org/2014/11/15/battery-free-electric-cars/
Battery-free electric cars possible with graphene-based supercapacitors,
according to research
By Gregory Sze / 15 November 2014 

[image  
http://s2.paultan.org/image/2013/10/Tesla-Model-S-05.jpg
Tesla Model S-05
]

A study conducted by researchers at Rice University and the Queensland
University of Technology have resulted in the creation of a graphene-based
supercapacitor film that could possibly replace the need for a conventional
battery in electric cars.

Construction for the supercapacitor consists of two layers of graphene with
an electrolyte layer sandwiched in the middle – creating a thin and durable
film that is able to disperse large amounts of energy in a short amount of
time. Being made from graphene allows for the layer of carbon to measure in
at one atom thick.

Naturally, this would help with the packaging of the vehicle as the film can
be incorporated into different parts of the car – from the body panels to
the roof and even the doors. Another added benefit is the fact that carbon
is more easily sourced compared to lithium, allowing for lower entry costs
in terms of manufacturing.

Another immediate benefit of the supercapacitor film technology is apparent
in charging time. According to the researchers, the system is able to
achieve a full charge within minutes rather than the required few hours of a
more conventional battery.

With the inclusion of the film, researchers are aiming for a future where
electric cars will no longer require a batter. Instead developing a system
capable of a maximum range of 500 kilometres – more or less the same as a
petrol-powered car.

“In the future, it is hoped the supercapacitor will be developed to store
more energy than a Li-Ion battery while retaining the ability to release its
energy up to 10 times faster,” adds Jinzhang Liu, one of lead researchers.
[© paultan.org]
...
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/19844/20141110/lighweight-graphene-based-supercapacitors-may-boost-power-and-range-of-electric-cars.htm
Lighweight, graphene-based supercapacitors may boost power and range of
electric cars
By Nicole Arce | November 10, 2014
...
http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/transportation/advanced-cars/graphenebased-supercapacitors-take-another-crack-at-allelectric-vehicles
Graphene-based Supercapacitors Take Another Crack at All-electric Vehicles
By Dexter Johnson  7 Nov 2014
...
http://www.loadthegame.com/2014/11/13/battery-free-electric-cars-may-become-real-5-years/
Battery-free electric cars may become real in 5 years
by: Emily Smith  November 13, 2014
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor
Supercapacitors




For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVLN%2Bbrucedp2%26days%3D0%26sort%3Ddate

http://www.ferret.com.au/articles/news/super-capacitor-breakthrough-to-boost-power-of-electric-cars-n2519064
Super capacitor breakthrough to boost power of electric cars

http://www.ecnmag.com/news/2014/11/supercapacitors-combine-regular-batteries-boost-power-electric-cars
"Supercapacitors" combine with batteries to boost the power of EVs
...
http://gadgets.ndtv.com/science/news/electric-cars-could-soon-be-charged-by-their-own-bodies-617650

http://www.ibtimes.com/wireless-electric-rail-begins-testing-kaohsiung-taiwan-worlds-first-completely-cable-1722488
Taiwan's $.5B World's 1st Cable-Free Supercapacitor Light-rail System
+
EVLN: 123 N_American Soul EVs sold in Oct> Charges Quick, Longer-Range


{brucedp.150m.com}



--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Supercapacitors-could-get-Tesla-their-7credit-EV-tp4672702.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
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