[EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Ken Olum via EV]

At the end of June I bought the JuiceBox 40 Pro EVSE from Emotorwerks.
I paid $600, and I think that's enough that I'm entitled to a little
customer support.  But I've 4 sent requests to their support address and
never received a satisfactory answer.  In some cases I got a reply, but
the reply was "so-and-so is the expert on this and will get back to you
and answer your question" and then I never heard from so-and-so.

Before sending this message, I complained to them about the fact that I
wasn't getting any support, and that complaint also went unanswered.

So, at this point, I feel I should warn other EV drivers not to buy from
Emotorwerks if you want to be able to ask any questions or get any help
with your equipment.  I'm sorry to do it.  I thought this was a
promising company with an interesting piece of equipment at an
attractive price.

They are very proud of the fact that it's open source.  Anyone know
where to find the source?  I guess I should read it if I ever want to
get an answer to my main question, which is "How does the unit manage
the charging current limit in cases where the connection to
Emotorwerks's servers is not completely reliable?"

Ken Olum
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[EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Ken Olum via EV]

I found the source: http://emotorwerks.com/JuiceBox_Public
They only have through 8.10, whereas I have 8.12, but it is probably not
too different.  The code was readable, and if I understood it correctly, the
answer is that after 90 seconds without being able to communicate with
the emotorwerks server, the charging limit will be reset to maximum.
This makes setting the charging limit in this way not too much use,
because the only reason to do it is to keep from overloading some
circuit, and generally you would not like a two-minute loss of Internet
connectivity to cause the overload that you were trying to prevent.

So I changed to using the trimpot inside the box to control the current.

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Thanks for this.  I was getting ready to pull the trigger on a juicebox
myself.  As a perpetual electrical noob I can't afford an EVSE at an
attractive price that has no support.

Chris

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Ken Olum via EV  wrote:

> At the end of June I bought the JuiceBox 40 Pro EVSE from Emotorwerks.
> I paid $600, and I think that's enough that I'm entitled to a little
> customer support.  But I've 4 sent requests to their support address and
> never received a satisfactory answer.  In some cases I got a reply, but
> the reply was "so-and-so is the expert on this and will get back to you
> and answer your question" and then I never heard from so-and-so.
>
> Before sending this message, I complained to them about the fact that I
> wasn't getting any support, and that complaint also went unanswered.
>
> So, at this point, I feel I should warn other EV drivers not to buy from
> Emotorwerks if you want to be able to ask any questions or get any help
> with your equipment.  I'm sorry to do it.  I thought this was a
> promising company with an interesting piece of equipment at an
> attractive price.
>
> They are very proud of the fact that it's open source.  Anyone know
> where to find the source?  I guess I should read it if I ever want to
> get an answer to my main question, which is "How does the unit manage
> the charging current limit in cases where the connection to
> Emotorwerks's servers is not completely reliable?"
>
> Ken Olum
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Oct 2015 at 16:06, Ken Olum via EV wrote:

> main question ...  is "How does the unit manage the charging current
> limit in cases where the connection to Emotorwerks's servers is not
> completely reliable?" 

>From their webpage, this appears to be a home EVSE.  So it's not a matter of 
billing someone for electricity.  Given that, my questions would be:

1. Why does it need to talk to their servers at all?  
2. Why doesn't it have enough onboard processing power to charge an EV?
3. What happens to it if Emotorworks goes out of business?

IMO, if you "buy" a product that won't work properly without its 
manufacturer's servers being available to it online, you haven't bought it. 
You've bought a temporary, revocable right to use it as directed by the 
manufacturer, for as long as they want you to.  If they decide that the 
product is obsolete and they want you to buy a new one, they can just tell 
it to stop working.  If they go out of business, the gadget quits working 
regardless, at least at the feature level advertised.

If they've encrypted its software (many do) and you reverse-engineer it to 
get it working again, or to make it work the way you want it to, you're in 
violation of the DMCA and they can sic the law on you.

The nice thing about EV conversions is that they don't need fancy $600 
networked online charging cords.  They do just fine with a $50 SJ cord and 
plug, and a 240v or 120v receptacle.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Willie2 via EV]

On 10/15/2015 03:06 PM, Ken Olum via EV wrote:

Before sending this message, I complained to them about the fact that I
wasn't getting any support, and that complaint also went unanswered.

I now have four JuiceBoxes, two under the KickStarter project, as well 
as a 10kw charger.  I've had some trouble three or four times and also 
found their service lacking.  I've chalked it up to growing pains.  They 
have eventually fixed most of my problems.  I think I have wifi on all 
my JBs but I've given up trying to use it.  One major, for me, problem 
is that the display they use on chargers and the premium JBs is very 
difficult to read.  Very small and poor contrast.  The radio key fob 
required for configuring premium JBs seems like an almost certain future 
failure point.


All in all, I consider their products to be good values.

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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Ken Olum via EV]

   Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:38:03 -0400
   From: EVDL Administrator via EV 

   Given that, my questions would be:

   1. Why does it need to talk to their servers at all?  

I don't know why they did it this way.  I would be much happier if I could
communicate directly with the box, without going through their servers.

   3. What happens to it if Emotorworks goes out of business?

I think if Emotorwerks goes out of business, you either have to do a
bunch of technical work or your box has effectively been downgraded to
the model without digital communications, in which case you have wasted
$100.

   If they've encrypted its software (many do) and you reverse-engineer it to 
   get it working again, or to make it work the way you want it to, you're in 
   violation of the DMCA and they can sic the law on you.

They claim it is open source, so presumably there is no legal issue.  But
this claim does not seem to come with any actual access to the source,
so in terms of practical value it may be meaningless.

   The nice thing about EV conversions is that they don't need fancy $600 
   networked online charging cords.  They do just fine with a $50 SJ cord and 
   plug, and a 240v or 120v receptacle.

That's true, but on the other hand all J1772 chargers have to obey a
single standard for limiting the charging rate, whereas the chargers
used in conversions all have (or don't have) their own procedures for
doing this.

   Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 07:56:11 -0500
   From: Willie2 via EV 

   ...One major, for me, problem is that the display they use on
   chargers and the premium JBs is very difficult to read.

Fortunately (?) for me, my unit does not have the display.

   Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:37:01 -0400
   From: Jay Summet via EV 
   
   My understanding is that once you set the charging amp limit, it will 
   not change until you modify the setting again.

If this were true, I would not be having this problem.  The charging
limit is stored on the the server.  Once you set it, the server will
always remember it.  But under certain circumstances (I wish I knew
exactly which), when the box can't reach the server, it forgets the
limit.

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Cruisin via EV]

Drive down to their address and you will understand why there is no support,
RED FLAG.

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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Eh?
If you want to make accusations then please be specific
instead of vague insinuations that could just as well be
your interpretation of a particular problem.
I have been at their site, they lease a warehouse for their
stuff and their assembly staff, as they have grown way too
big to do everything on their original address.
What is the red flag you are talking about?
I also happen to talk to Valery at the EV show in Cupertino
which they visit (and have a stand at) every year.
They may be busy and not always responsive due to over-taxing
themselves with the projects they take on, but you can't
expect to grow or even survive in this market if you do not
challenge yourself, so I see nothing out of the ordinary there.
Please clarify.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com



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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cruisin via EV
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 2:02 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

Drive down to their address and you will understand why there is no support, 
RED FLAG.

--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Emotorworks-Juicebox-lack-of-customer-support-tp4678097p4678131.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Thanks for the link!
What about modding the code to not change the limit once it has communicated to 
the server?

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Ken Olum via EV  wrote:
> 
> I found the source: http://emotorwerks.com/JuiceBox_Public
> They only have through 8.10, whereas I have 8.12, but it is probably not
> too different.  The code was readable, and if I understood it correctly, the
> answer is that after 90 seconds without being able to communicate with
> the emotorwerks server, the charging limit will be reset to maximum.
> This makes setting the charging limit in this way not too much use,
> because the only reason to do it is to keep from overloading some
> circuit, and generally you would not like a two-minute loss of Internet
> connectivity to cause the overload that you were trying to prevent.
> 
> So I changed to using the trimpot inside the box to control the current.
> 
>Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Ken Olum via EV  wrote:

> At the end of June I bought the JuiceBox 40 Pro EVSE from Emotorwerks.
> I paid $600, and I think that's enough that I'm entitled to a little
> customer support.  But I've 4 sent requests to their support address and
> never received a satisfactory answer.  In some cases I got a reply, but
> the reply was "so-and-so is the expert on this and will get back to you
> and answer your question" and then I never heard from so-and-so.
>

​Thinking more about this, there are other products that have no official
tech support.  They rely ​on an active and enthusiastic online community,
sometimes backed up by a company representative or two.  I personally have
had fair-to-good results from this kind of arrangement (free antivirus
programs, etc.).  I see there is a Juicebox support thread on
DIYElectricCar.

​Has anyone had good or inadequate results with Juicebox support using this
approach?

Chris​
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Tom Jones via EV]

I received my Juicebox about eighteen months ago. Mine has the case that 
looks like a very big battery. I did make some small hardware and 
firmware changes but only because that's what I like to do. And Valery 
Miftakhov was very responsive and helpful when I had questions. In fact, 
I use Valery's code for the display in other projects.


My Juicebox has been working very well since I received it.

Tom Jones

On 10/17/2015 7:41 PM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Ken Olum via EV  wrote:


At the end of June I bought the JuiceBox 40 Pro EVSE from Emotorwerks.
I paid $600, and I think that's enough that I'm entitled to a little
customer support.  But I've 4 sent requests to their support address and
never received a satisfactory answer.  In some cases I got a reply, but
the reply was "so-and-so is the expert on this and will get back to you
and answer your question" and then I never heard from so-and-so.


​Thinking more about this, there are other products that have no official
tech support.  They rely ​on an active and enthusiastic online community,
sometimes backed up by a company representative or two.  I personally have
had fair-to-good results from this kind of arrangement (free antivirus
programs, etc.).  I see there is a Juicebox support thread on
DIYElectricCar.

​Has anyone had good or inadequate results with Juicebox support using this
approach?

Chris​
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