Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  Commercially available Sunpower cells. Panels will not work.


Well, they could. Some of Sunpower's panels are flexible. They also sell 
the cells separately, but using them is a LOT more work (the sort of 
things that the solar raycer teams will do). Sometimes the perfect is 
the enemy of the good enough. :-)


Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Re safety.
My original solar prius used 15 series panels to get to 240 VDC to parallel
into the HV DC system.
Worked great... BUT after a few years, I noticed that while washing the car
in the sun, I'd get little shocks each time my sponge went over the  edge
between adjacent fiberglass solar panels.  THey have been on the car for 13
years and "edge effects" show weather slowly weep[ing into the edges of the
panels.

Bob

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 5:07 PM jkenny23 via EV  wrote:

> I think what you're looking for is the Lightyear One.
> https://lightyear.one/
>
> A modern, amazingly efficient EV, with solar roof. But since it's so niche,
> as described before, it will cost you around $170k :)
>
> As for the original question of "faking out EV to accept solar input while
> driving" the easiest way of doing this is just connecting some wires
> directly to the HV battery +/-, with contactors (positive and negative),
> fuses (positive and negative), and your 400VDC CC-CV MPPT solar charge
> controller (likely custom required) with reverse current blocking, to your
> custom roof mounted solar panel. The car won't know any different, other
> than you're driving marginally more efficiently than normal. All
> precautions
> about dealing with 400VDC at lethal power levels (not just to you, but
> power
> levels that can literally explode metal if shorted) apply.
>
> Doesn't sound so easy now does it. Budget 6 months+ with lots of debug
> afterwards, and high likelihood of blowing up some electronics. All so you
> can get 13mi of range per day from the sun, on your car. There's a reason
> Elon and others think this is a dumb idea; just put solar panels on the
> roof
> of your house, carport, etc. and get 50% higher utilization of those same
> solar panels/cells, and power your house too when the car is full or
> absent.
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

The naysayers can always argue against anything that doesn't fit the usual 
paradigm of heavy = safe. But if you put the solar on your roof you are limited 
to that area and you can't gain energy while driving. What gives me hope 
instantly is 4 generations of this vehicle have be built and were winners. The 
last two generations were reduced in KW both in battery and panels because of 
the outstanding performance during the challenge. I suspect the basic design 
might be adopted as a van. Possibly a Van could be engineered to be light 
enough and big enough for the energy collected to be meaningful. The Stella 
vehicles can charge in 10 hours . They could gain 200 miles a day just sitting 
in one place then driven another 200 miles again and again. Or they could drive 
45 mph most of the day infinitely.  The other thing that gives me hope is every 
time I talk to one of my Tesla company friends(engineers)about the possibility 
of a solar car they clam up like their job was in danger. Musk has never talked 
about the practical aspects of producing a truly solar vehicle. Tesla and Musk 
are averse about their future projects. Talk about disruption. Imagine if a 
practical solar car could be built?  I want one. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lee Hart via EV]

jkenny23 via EV wrote:

I think what you're looking for is the Lightyear One. https://lightyear.one/

A modern, amazingly efficient EV, with solar roof. But since it's so niche,
as described before, it will cost you around $170k :)


Maybe more... or maybe less. It all depends on how many they can sell.


As for the original question of "faking out EV to accept solar input while
driving" the easiest way of doing this is just connecting some wires
directly to the HV battery +/-, with contactors (positive and negative),
fuses (positive and negative), and your 400VDC CC-CV MPPT solar charge
controller (likely custom required) with reverse current blocking, to your
custom roof mounted solar panel.


I don't think this would be easy; nor would it be safe. Too much risk of 
a shock hazard, since you'd have the pack's high voltage on the exterior 
panels.


I think an easier and safer approach would be to use low-voltage PV 
cells or panels to charge the 12v battery with an MPPT controller. It 
will get the most out of the panels, and also avoid overcharging the 
battery. These are common, commercially available products.


Then, use an isolated 12vdc inverter to step this up to charge the HVDC 
pack. This could be as simple as a standard 120vac inverter, with a 
voltage doubler or tripler on its output to convert it to DC and step it 
up to charge the pack. With the right choice of components, its voltage 
can be chosen to make it impossible to overcharge the pack.


Still, it's a niche solution. It would be better to leave the PV panels 
at home, if you live in a place where that's possible.


Lee Hart
--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[jkenny23 via EV]

I think what you're looking for is the Lightyear One. https://lightyear.one/

A modern, amazingly efficient EV, with solar roof. But since it's so niche,
as described before, it will cost you around $170k :)

As for the original question of "faking out EV to accept solar input while
driving" the easiest way of doing this is just connecting some wires
directly to the HV battery +/-, with contactors (positive and negative),
fuses (positive and negative), and your 400VDC CC-CV MPPT solar charge
controller (likely custom required) with reverse current blocking, to your
custom roof mounted solar panel. The car won't know any different, other
than you're driving marginally more efficiently than normal. All precautions
about dealing with 400VDC at lethal power levels (not just to you, but power
levels that can literally explode metal if shorted) apply. 

Doesn't sound so easy now does it. Budget 6 months+ with lots of debug
afterwards, and high likelihood of blowing up some electronics. All so you
can get 13mi of range per day from the sun, on your car. There's a reason
Elon and others think this is a dumb idea; just put solar panels on the roof
of your house, carport, etc. and get 50% higher utilization of those same
solar panels/cells, and power your house too when the car is full or absent.

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lee Hart via EV]

From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
> Lawrence, you really seem to be pining for a Stella Lux... It's clearly
> a technical tour de force, and I'd love to see it go into to production.
> However, I doubt very much that you or I will ever be able to buy one,
> or anything similar.

I agree with David, though not quite a stridently. After all, bicycles did take 
over in the 1890's world of horses and carriages. They were a highly disruptive 
technology that nevertheless took hold.

I could also point at the Swiss Twike; another highly efficient but very 
strange and expensive EV that nevertheless found its way to market.

Maybe some niche will be found for the Stella Lux. Maybe in some country other 
than the US, which seems to be stuck in the last century.

Lee Hart

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Jay Summet via EV]

I generally agree with David on the points below, but could think of a 
few ways the Stella Lux could be brought to market:


1) A niche/specialty product, sold to a small number of (rich) early 
adopters willing to pay $100,000 for a super environmental (and 
exclusive) vehicle.



2) If Tesla (or any other automaker) wanted to, I think they could 
manufacture and sell a very similar product at scale ("Tesla Lite") for 
$35,000-$45,000.  (All it would take is a way to mass-produce the carbon 
fiber body with integrated solar cells, everything else in the vehicle 
is COTS.)


However, Tesla is already selling the base model 3 in that price range, 
and combined with the supercharger network, it is more capable, safer, 
and has better performance than the Lux.


Jay

On 7/23/20 8:25 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Lawrence, you really seem to be pining for a Stella Lux.  I've lost count of
how many times you've brought it up.  Not that there's anything wrong with
that, mind you.

It's clearly a technical tour de force, and I'd love to see it go into to
production.  However, I doubt very much that you or I will ever be able to
buy one, or anything similar.

Vehicle buyers' habits have been carefully sculpted over the last century,
especially the last 40 years, and those habits are the exact antithsis of a
funky-looking car with racing seat belts and a solar skin.  It would take a
gargantuan advertising and PR blitz to develop any significant demand.

Then the vehicle itself, being so different from the mainstream, would need
years or maybe decades of subsidies from governments and the vehicle maker
itself before it could amortize its design costs and achieve economy of
scale.  That's not going to happen in our libertarian capitalist system.
Governments are too intent on cutting rich folks' taxes to spend that way,
and a vehicle maker who carried a money-loser for that long would face a
stockholder revolt.

Someone with a Bezos- or Gates-size fortune might be able to do it, but Elon
Musk notwithstanding, people like that don't usually have enough interest in
EVs to put a big part of their fortune into one.

I just don't see a business case for a vehicle like the Stella Lux.  I wish
I did.  But the landscape is already littered with hundreds of brilliant EV
ideas that should have made production and couldn't get there, from the
Aptera to the Solectria Sunrise.

I think that if you want a Stella Lux or something similar, you're going to
have to build it yourself from scratch.

Or maybe you could hire a couple members of the Stella team to build you
one, if you have something close to Elon Musk's fortune.  :-\

Or just do the sensible thing, and put the bloody PV on your house's roof.
That way it gets more sun more of the time, and you don't have to haul it
around on the car when it's not producing any significant energy.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
  How easy it is to make people believe a lie,
  and [how] hard it is to undo that work again!

  -- Mark Twain
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Lawrence, you really seem to be pining for a Stella Lux.  I've lost count of 
how many times you've brought it up.  Not that there's anything wrong with 
that, mind you.

It's clearly a technical tour de force, and I'd love to see it go into to 
production.  However, I doubt very much that you or I will ever be able to 
buy one, or anything similar.

Vehicle buyers' habits have been carefully sculpted over the last century, 
especially the last 40 years, and those habits are the exact antithsis of a 
funky-looking car with racing seat belts and a solar skin.  It would take a 
gargantuan advertising and PR blitz to develop any significant demand. 

Then the vehicle itself, being so different from the mainstream, would need 
years or maybe decades of subsidies from governments and the vehicle maker 
itself before it could amortize its design costs and achieve economy of 
scale.  That's not going to happen in our libertarian capitalist system.  
Governments are too intent on cutting rich folks' taxes to spend that way, 
and a vehicle maker who carried a money-loser for that long would face a 
stockholder revolt.

Someone with a Bezos- or Gates-size fortune might be able to do it, but Elon 
Musk notwithstanding, people like that don't usually have enough interest in 
EVs to put a big part of their fortune into one.

I just don't see a business case for a vehicle like the Stella Lux.  I wish 
I did.  But the landscape is already littered with hundreds of brilliant EV 
ideas that should have made production and couldn't get there, from the 
Aptera to the Solectria Sunrise.  

I think that if you want a Stella Lux or something similar, you're going to 
have to build it yourself from scratch.

Or maybe you could hire a couple members of the Stella team to build you 
one, if you have something close to Elon Musk's fortune.  :-\

Or just do the sensible thing, and put the bloody PV on your house's roof.  
That way it gets more sun more of the time, and you don't have to haul it 
around on the car when it's not producing any significant energy.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 How easy it is to make people believe a lie, 
 and [how] hard it is to undo that work again!

 -- Mark Twain
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Commercially available Sunpower cells. Panels will not work.  
https://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
 The cells are tightly spaced and the car is designed to be a platform for the 
cells. It is also more aerodynamic than any sedan or hatch back. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>> Cars can carry 1,500 watts of solar using Sunpower cells. That means
>> every spot. Hood, top and trunk...

Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

Where are you getting your cells, from NASA? You couldn't get 1500 watts
even if you covered the sides and all the windows too.


Sunpower Maxeon3 panels are 66" x 41", and claim 400w under standard 
conditions (22% efficiency). Four of them would be 1600w (best case), 
and measure 5.5 feet wide and 13.7 feet long; that's about the size of a 
normal car.


However, a normal car's hood+roof+trunk area isn't that big. You'd you'd 
have to put them on a van to have a big enough roof.


And, you won't get that peak output unless the car is tilted to exactly 
the right angle.


So it's theoretically possible. But in reality, you'd get maybe half 
that amount of power as your daily peak. :-)


Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Alan Arrison via EV]

Where are you getting your cells, from NASA? You couldn't get 1500 watts 
even if you covered the sides and all the windows too.


On 7/22/2020 1:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Cars can carry 1,500 watts of solar using Sunpower cells. That means every 
spot. Hood, top and trunk. Not panels but individual cells. Encapsulated by 
hand. When you add a light and long trailer, why not include living quarters. 
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Cars can carry 1,500 watts of solar using Sunpower cells. That means every 
spot. Hood, top and trunk. Not panels but individual cells. Encapsulated by 
hand. When you add a light and long trailer, why not include living quarters. 
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 21 Jul 2020 at 21:06, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> I was thinking directly hooking into the output of the regen system might be
> the best way for an EV pack to accept energy from other sources rather than
> the normal charging system.

IIRC, that's how most of the plug-in Prius hacks (Engineer and so on) 
worked. 

It'll be interesting to see whether it will work for real EVs.  I can see 
some of them choking on it if the computer looks at road speed and says 
"Huh? What's this?  Regen when I'm not moving?  Something's wrong! I'd 
better flip on the error light and disable the car."

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining. 
Even when it shines, it looks like rain. 

  -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs"
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

On my two solar prius and the Frankenvolt,(http://aprs.org/my-EVs.html)
about the most solar panels that will fit are about 240 watts.  Since the
volt is said to consume over 500 watts *just-being-on" the more interesting
question is where is all that going.  Are the CPUs all powered from the 12v
bus?  If so, then simply pushing the solar wattage into the 12v system
would seem to help.  But since the 12v system is maintained at 14v to keep
the 12v battery topped off, then there is no where for the current to go...

Unless the voltage rise from pushing in current will trigger the feedback
to reduce the 12v coming from the volt's DC/DC converter.

Would be nice to know.
bob

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 10:21 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> I was thinking directly hooking into the output of the regen system might
> be the best way for an EV pack to accept energy from other sources rather
> than the normal charging systemthat is...unprotected. I want to put
> panels on my roof and on a pop trailer as long as allowed by law...and
> don't say it's too heavy. That is not an issue as I will only build what
> will not exceed weight standards and the law. I want to mimic the regen
> system via the solar panels.   Lawrence Rhodes
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[EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I was thinking directly hooking into the output of the regen system might be 
the best way for an EV pack to accept energy from other sources rather than the 
normal charging systemthat is...unprotected. I want to put panels on my 
roof and on a pop trailer as long as allowed by law...and don't say it's too 
heavy. That is not an issue as I will only build what will not exceed weight 
standards and the law. I want to mimic the regen system via the solar panels.   
Lawrence Rhodes
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