Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Cor van de Water via EV]

My GE EV-100 / EVT-15 controller does something similar using
the battery contactor and the motor contactor:
Before closing the battery contactor it will check pre-charge and
battery voltage, then it will close the battery contactor and check the
motor output, which is attached to a pair of identical high value
resistors, one to battery + and one to battery - so that the open motor
output should be at 50% battery voltage unless either the IGBT is
leaking to - battery or the flyback diode is leaking to + battery.
If the motor output is not too much from a mid voltage, then the motor
contactor will close and the controller can drive the vehicle.
During operation it will also monitor for overcurrent and limit the
current, but if the IGBT shows de-saturation then it assumes a short
circuit is happening and it opens the contactors.
Note that this has prevented several run-away cases or blowing stuff up
when one component failed.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 12:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> I am sure that this test is done in software just to verify that
> everything works, just like there is a special relay that will
> *create* a GFCI event just to test the detection of GFCI before
> relying on it. Most standards actually do not specify what happens in
> transition (such as power up)

I agree. It is common practice for a product to test its own safety 
circuits automatically, one way or another. The standards were written 
to allow and even encourage this.

Relay contacts can stick closed. If you want to be sure a relay opens, 
then monitor its contacts and operate it.

I recall one product where it was vital that its AC output could be 
turned off in an emergency. So we had *two* relays, with their contacts 
in series (one switching one hot lead, the other switching the other). 
The safety test circuit closed and opened one relay while measuring its 
output to be sure it worked. Then it repeated this test with the other 
relay. Only if both passed did it turn on BOTH relays to power the load.
-- 
Knowledge is better than belief. Belief is when someone else does
your thinking.  -- anonymous
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Actually Cor, when I tested the Juicebox I had a meter in the J1772 Power pins
and it showed 240vac from the first thunk to the 2nd thunk, when the contactor
closed and when it opened. And the easiest way the contactor can be tested is to
put power thru it and that is what the Juicebox does.

Best to all

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via
EV
> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem
>
> I am sure that this test is done in software just to verify that everything
works, just like there
> is a special relay that will *create* a GFCI event just to test the detection
of GFCI before
> relying on it.
> Most standards actually do not specify what happens in transition (such as
power up) but if
> it is important - the software is open source so you can simply comment out
this test and if
> you want to still get the proper test results, you do the test at the (first)
plug-in event.
> Problem solved.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary
> information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this message in
error, please
> delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized use, disclosure,
distribution, or copying of
> any part of this message is prohibited.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ing. Marco Gaxiola
via EV
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 10:44 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem
>
> Well, according to the SAE-J1772 standard, the contactor shall not be
energized during a
> startup test nor any other condition than when plugging it to a car. Maybe
that is one of the
> reasons is not been approved.
>
>
> Marco Gaxiola
> CEO/Director
> Tel: +52(662)301.1070
> Skype: info.energyev
> www.energyev.com
>
>
>
> -Mensaje original-
> De: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] En nombre de Cruisin via EV Enviado
el:
> domingo, 31 de enero de 2016 01:44 p.m.
> Para: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Asunto: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem
>
> You can get support from the people who sold you the non approved charging
stations.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Juicebox-co
> ntac
> tor-problem-tp4680179p4680186.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I am sure that this test is done in software just to verify that
everything works, just like there is a special relay that will *create*
a GFCI event
just to test the detection of GFCI before relying on it.
Most standards actually do not specify what happens in transition (such
as power up) but if it is important - the software is open source so you
can simply comment out this test and if you want to still get the proper
test results, you do the test at the (first) plug-in event. Problem
solved.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ing. Marco
Gaxiola via EV
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 10:44 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

Well, according to the SAE-J1772 standard, the contactor shall not be
energized during a startup test nor any other condition than when
plugging
it to a car. Maybe that is one of the reasons is not been approved.


Marco Gaxiola
CEO/Director
Tel: +52(662)301.1070
Skype: info.energyev
www.energyev.com 



-Mensaje original-
De: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] En nombre de Cruisin via EV
Enviado el: domingo, 31 de enero de 2016 01:44 p.m.
Para: ev@lists.evdl.org
Asunto: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

You can get support from the people who sold you the non approved
charging
stations.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Juicebox-co
ntac
tor-problem-tp4680179p4680186.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

I am sure that this test is done in software just to verify that
everything works, just like there is a special relay that will
*create* a GFCI event just to test the detection of GFCI before
relying on it. Most standards actually do not specify what happens in
transition (such as power up)


I agree. It is common practice for a product to test its own safety 
circuits automatically, one way or another. The standards were written 
to allow and even encourage this.


Relay contacts can stick closed. If you want to be sure a relay opens, 
then monitor its contacts and operate it.


I recall one product where it was vital that its AC output could be 
turned off in an emergency. So we had *two* relays, with their contacts 
in series (one switching one hot lead, the other switching the other). 
The safety test circuit closed and opened one relay while measuring its 
output to be sure it worked. Then it repeated this test with the other 
relay. Only if both passed did it turn on BOTH relays to power the load.

--
Knowledge is better than belief. Belief is when someone else does
your thinking.  -- anonymous
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Oh that was clear from the beginning: energize the contactor and power
goes to the J1772 plug. What I meant was that the choice to energize the
contactor and measure the 240V output presence is a software
implementation.
Remove the lines of code that energize the contactor on startup and you
will not see 240V on the J1772 plug. This means that the test if the
contactor works must be postponed until the first plug-in event.
Probably the GFCI test requires the contactor closed as well, so that
test can then also only be done after an EV plugged in, not on power-up.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rush Dougherty
via EV
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 12:46 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

Actually Cor, when I tested the Juicebox I had a meter in the J1772
Power pins
and it showed 240vac from the first thunk to the 2nd thunk, when the
contactor
closed and when it opened. And the easiest way the contactor can be
tested is to
put power thru it and that is what the Juicebox does.

Best to all

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via
EV
> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem
>
> I am sure that this test is done in software just to verify that
everything
works, just like there
> is a special relay that will *create* a GFCI event just to test the
detection
of GFCI before
> relying on it.
> Most standards actually do not specify what happens in transition
(such as
power up) but if
> it is important - the software is open source so you can simply
comment out
this test and if
> you want to still get the proper test results, you do the test at the
(first)
plug-in event.
> Problem solved.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
and
proprietary
> information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this
message in
error, please
> delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized use, disclosure,
distribution, or copying of
> any part of this message is prohibited.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ing. Marco
Gaxiola
via EV
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 10:44 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem
>
> Well, according to the SAE-J1772 standard, the contactor shall not be
energized during a
> startup test nor any other condition than when plugging it to a car.
Maybe
that is one of the
> reasons is not been approved.
>
>
> Marco Gaxiola
> CEO/Director
> Tel: +52(662)301.1070
> Skype: info.energyev
> www.energyev.com
>
>
>
> -Mensaje original-
> De: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] En nombre de Cruisin via EV
Enviado
el:
> domingo, 31 de enero de 2016 01:44 p.m.
> Para: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Asunto: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem
>
> You can get support from the people who sold you the non approved
charging
stations.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Juicebox-co
> ntac
> tor-problem-tp4680179p4680186.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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racing
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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[EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Hi all,

A friend has a Juicebox, one of the earlier ones, and when he plugged the power
cord in, I heard a thunk, thunk, like the contactor was engaging and
disengaging. I asked him if that was new and he said nope, whenever I plug it in
it does that. So I guess it was doing a contactor test.

Then I thought, is the J1772 plug must be hot when that happens? I plugged my
meter into the hot leads of the J1772, plugged in the power cord and heard the
thunk, the meter jumped to 220, heard another thunk and the meter went back to
zero.

Do you people that have a Juicebox experience the same sequence of thunk, thunk
when you initially plug the EVSE into a power source?

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719




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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Tom Jones via EV]

I also have a JuiceBox and it has always cycled the main relay when you 
reset the unit, or apply power. The relay is closed for a very short 
time. The relay is cycled if the EVSE is connected to the car or not. 
Mine was a kit and I have had it for some time now but I recall that 
characteristic being mentioned in the kit documentation.


I look at it as a very simple functional test. Yes, the main relay can 
be activated, if you hear it close and open.


Tom

On 1/31/2016 9:49 AM, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:

Hi all,

A friend has a Juicebox, one of the earlier ones, and when he plugged the power
cord in, I heard a thunk, thunk, like the contactor was engaging and
disengaging. I asked him if that was new and he said nope, whenever I plug it in
it does that. So I guess it was doing a contactor test.

Then I thought, is the J1772 plug must be hot when that happens? I plugged my
meter into the hot leads of the J1772, plugged in the power cord and heard the
thunk, the meter jumped to 220, heard another thunk and the meter went back to
zero.

Do you people that have a Juicebox experience the same sequence of thunk, thunk
when you initially plug the EVSE into a power source?

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719




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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[corbin dunn via EV]

Yes, it does a power cycle test on plugin. That’s normal, and you can see it in 
their open source arduino code.

corbin

> On Jan 31, 2016, at 9:49 AM, Rush Dougherty via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> A friend has a Juicebox, one of the earlier ones, and when he plugged the 
> power
> cord in, I heard a thunk, thunk, like the contactor was engaging and
> disengaging. I asked him if that was new and he said nope, whenever I plug it 
> in
> it does that. So I guess it was doing a contactor test.
> 
> Then I thought, is the J1772 plug must be hot when that happens? I plugged my
> meter into the hot leads of the J1772, plugged in the power cord and heard the
> thunk, the meter jumped to 220, heard another thunk and the meter went back to
> zero.
> 
> Do you people that have a Juicebox experience the same sequence of thunk, 
> thunk
> when you initially plug the EVSE into a power source?
> 
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Cruisin via EV]

You can get support from the people who sold you the non approved charging
stations.

--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Juicebox-contactor-problem-tp4680179p4680186.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

[Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV]

Well, according to the SAE-J1772 standard, the contactor shall not be
energized during a startup test nor any other condition than when plugging
it to a car. Maybe that is one of the reasons is not been approved.


Marco Gaxiola
CEO/Director
Tel: +52(662)301.1070
Skype: info.energyev
www.energyev.com 



-Mensaje original-
De: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] En nombre de Cruisin via EV
Enviado el: domingo, 31 de enero de 2016 01:44 p.m.
Para: ev@lists.evdl.org
Asunto: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox contactor problem

You can get support from the people who sold you the non approved charging
stations.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Juicebox-contac
tor-problem-tp4680179p4680186.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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