Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I rather have someone who learns the hard way and posts about it, so everyone 
else who cares can avoid the mistakes he made, than someone who stays away from 
it all because it sounds too dangerous.
BTW, this will not count as a Tesla fire, it is a bunch of cells in an old 
buggy, nobody who watches the whole video will see this as Tesla fire, despite 
the title of the Youtube posting to get attention and use the familiar name….

I applaud him for being honest enough to admit the mistakes he made and show 
the consequences.
Also showing how, despite the battery fire, they managed to contain it to a 
damaged buggy and some scorch marks, no burned down buildings or loss of life 
and limb. Spectacular fireworks yes. Scary moments, certainly. Having a long, 
serious, conversation with the property owner – expected. But they 
(inadvertently) did a safety demonstration of what to do and what not, when 
encountering this type of (battery fire) situation. Great video and a great 
learning experience. 

I hope he continues with what he is already doing, with the increased knowledge.
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: - - via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 10:51 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: - -
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

I've watched some of the Rich Rebuilds videos.  I wouldn't characterize his 
style as being overly concerned with subtlety, care, or safety.

Some of the more scary points of the videos I watched:

  -  Disassembly of the car involving a sledge hammer.
  -  Dropping the pack to replace the contactors.  Reassembly consisted of 
lowering the car on the lift down to the pack, without checking fine alignment. 
 Of course, it wasn't aligned right, causing coolant to leak all over the 
floor, and who knows what other damage.

I would actually like to have more people taking apart their Tesla, and 
learning how they work to help expand the knowledge base, but I've put those 
videos on my list of "what not to do".

Unfortunately, this adds to the "another Tesla caught fire" swirl.

Mike

> On December 4, 2018 at 1:00 PM Damon Henry via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> I've never used a BMS on any of my setups.  It's true that this presents a 
> risk, but knowing your battery chemistry and charging parameters can go a 
> long way...  I have exploded batteries, but not in a way that a BMS would 
> detect.  I did it the old fashioned way... ignite the hydrogen 
> 
> Damon
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of Matthew Quitter via EV 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Matthew Quitter
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...
> 
> I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.
> 
> From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re 
> still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not 
> connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?
> 
> Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of 
> and tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules 
> sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!
> 
> Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic 
> casing and rested against something conductive?!
> 
> I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal 
> runaway.
> 
> Matthew
> 
> London Electric Cars
> 
> 
> > On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> > wrote:
> >
> > Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> > need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> > that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
> >
> > The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> > sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> > lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> > once.
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > EVDL Information: 
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evdl.org%2Fhelp%2F=02%7C01%7C%7C0ac2946696114272173308d65a0e2a79%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636795414215041255=1OX8Qxg2aifbfbvfZ%2Fgu1TdZs8Ht%2BIC8dRZ8mDp8e0w%3D=0
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> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> > reach me.  To send a private message, please 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[- - via EV]

I've watched some of the Rich Rebuilds videos.  I wouldn't characterize his 
style as being overly concerned with subtlety, care, or safety.

Some of the more scary points of the videos I watched:

  -  Disassembly of the car involving a sledge hammer.
  -  Dropping the pack to replace the contactors.  Reassembly consisted of 
lowering the car on the lift down to the pack, without checking fine alignment. 
 Of course, it wasn't aligned right, causing coolant to leak all over the 
floor, and who knows what other damage.

I would actually like to have more people taking apart their Tesla, and 
learning how they work to help expand the knowledge base, but I've put those 
videos on my list of "what not to do".

Unfortunately, this adds to the "another Tesla caught fire" swirl.

Mike

> On December 4, 2018 at 1:00 PM Damon Henry via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> I've never used a BMS on any of my setups.  It's true that this presents a 
> risk, but knowing your battery chemistry and charging parameters can go a 
> long way...  I have exploded batteries, but not in a way that a BMS would 
> detect.  I did it the old fashioned way... ignite the hydrogen 
> 
> Damon
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of Matthew Quitter via EV 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Matthew Quitter
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...
> 
> I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.
> 
> From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re 
> still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not 
> connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?
> 
> Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of 
> and tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules 
> sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!
> 
> Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic 
> casing and rested against something conductive?!
> 
> I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal 
> runaway.
> 
> Matthew
> 
> London Electric Cars
> 
> 
> > On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> > wrote:
> >
> > Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> > need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> > that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
> >
> > The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> > sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> > lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> > once.
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[Damon Henry via EV]

I've never used a BMS on any of my setups.  It's true that this presents a 
risk, but knowing your battery chemistry and charging parameters can go a long 
way...  I have exploded batteries, but not in a way that a BMS would detect.  I 
did it the old fashioned way... ignite the hydrogen 

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Matthew Quitter via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Matthew Quitter
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.

From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re 
still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not 
connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?

Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and 
tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules 
sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!

Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic 
casing and rested against something conductive?!

I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal 
runaway.

Matthew

London Electric Cars


> On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:
>
> Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
>
> The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> once.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[Cor van de Water via EV]

The video does not specify what went wrong to cause the first cell(s) into 
thermal runaway and catch on fire.
The Tesla Li cells may potentially do that if (internally) shorted due to 
manufacturing defect or failure to maintain them within required voltage range.
The cells may have been charged before placing them into the vehicle, 
especially if the pack was low beforehand it is tempting to put a charge on 
them for fear of them going dead, or the pack module may have rested on some 
metal parts (rear diff or frame support) that touched the pack in more than one 
place and shorted it. I hope Rich will post another update on the car to tell 
the whole story. 
It is easy for a dead pack (which has high internal resistance) to share 
charging voltage unevenly, causing some cells to get excessive voltage due to 
those cells being the *lowest* in Soc, highest in resistance and thus get the 
most charge voltage. The other thing of cause is that the pack may have 
discharged to the point that some cells were at zero (or even reversed, which 
is even more damaging) while still in the dead Tesla and then charged without 
BMS before being placed in the car. But that is all speculation right now. Fact 
is that at least 1 cell had a thermal runaway, started spitting fire and 
eventually the entirely of the two modules burned in a spectacular fireworks 
spitting burning cells in all directions…
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Matthew Quitter via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:40 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Matthew Quitter
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

I still don’t know what actually caused the fault. 

From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re 
still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not 
connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?

Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and 
tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules 
sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!

Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic 
casing and rested against something conductive?!

I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal 
runaway. 

Matthew

London Electric Cars


> On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:
> 
> Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't 
> need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of 
> that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
> 
> The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and 
> sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little 
> lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at 
> once.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[Matthew Quitter via EV]

I still don’t know what actually caused the fault. 

From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re 
still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not 
connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?

Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and 
tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules 
sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!

Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic 
casing and rested against something conductive?!

I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal 
runaway. 

Matthew

London Electric Cars


> On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:
> 
> Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't 
> need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of 
> that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
> 
> The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and 
> sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little 
> lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at 
> once.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't 
need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of 
that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.

The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and 
sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little 
lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at 
once.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I'm really surprised he didn't consider the risk. There have been so 
many li-ion battery fires and for so many years that it's hard to 
ignore.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" 
Sent: 04-Dec-18 3:39:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

He has a you tube channel called Rich Rebuilds where he documented the 
whole thing. They didn’t even tie the batteries down they were just 
laying in the back


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:57 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:


Listen especially to the end of that video.
Not only no BMS, but also no coolant, for which the Tesla pack was 
designed.

I presume it was (over) charging the cells when it went into runaway,
turning the cells into something resembling live ammo (per the 
question

from the FD).
Saw the burning cell bounce off the front of the fire truck?
Cor.

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 7:51 PM Jay Summet via EV wrote:


Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway
after being used to replace lead acid batteries.

It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into 
flames).


They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an
impressive show


https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[paul dove via EV]

He has a you tube channel called Rich Rebuilds where he documented the whole 
thing. They didn’t even tie the batteries down they were just laying in the back

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:57 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Listen especially to the end of that video.
> Not only no BMS, but also no coolant, for which the Tesla pack was designed.
> I presume it was (over) charging the cells when it went into runaway,
> turning the cells into something resembling live ammo (per the question
> from the FD).
> Saw the burning cell bounce off the front of the fire truck?
> Cor.
> 
>> On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 7:51 PM Jay Summet via EV > 
>> Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway
>> after being used to replace lead acid batteries.
>> 
>> It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into flames).
>> 
>> They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an
>> impressive show
>> 
>> 
>> https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/
>> 
>> 
>> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Listen especially to the end of that video.
Not only no BMS, but also no coolant, for which the Tesla pack was designed.
I presume it was (over) charging the cells when it went into runaway,
turning the cells into something resembling live ammo (per the question
from the FD).
Saw the burning cell bounce off the front of the fire truck?
Cor.

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 7:51 PM Jay Summet via EV  Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway
> after being used to replace lead acid batteries.
>
> It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into flames).
>
> They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an
> impressive show
>
>
> https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/
>
>
> Jay
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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[EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[Jay Summet via EV]

Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway 
after being used to replace lead acid batteries.


It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into flames).

They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an 
impressive show


https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/


Jay
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