Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

Hi Ed. Thank you for your kind comments!

I'll admit my post was a bit tongue in cheek; but my basic point remains. 
People tend to be lazy, and take the easy way out.
If you provide them with that easy way too soon, they are disinclined learn the 
basic principles of the subject at hand. They won't learn the principles of 
math, or how to write clearly, or drive safely.

I worry if you put young inexperienced drivers in a FSD car, they won't learn 
how to drive properly. They may be unfit to take control when something *does* 
go wrong (as it inevitably will). 

Maybe someday all cars will be self-driving, so nobody needs to ever drive 
themselves. But that day is a long way off.

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

A real life example just popped up

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8asrPCkYkIQ
Could it be that maybe...just maybe...we should take a little time to perfect 
it before deciding flood the cities with self driving taxis?



   On Sunday, May 5, 2024, 10:48:28 AM PDT, Lee Hart  
wrote:  
 
 
> Maybe the FSD starts taking more risks too...because the Tesla

> Overlords decide they like it that way and they want to test their

> new more edgy aggressive modes.   Maybe tailgating, or speeding,

> or passingall because FSD is just so much "better" than humans.

 

Aha! Let's start testing FSD in race cars! It can drive as aggressively as it 
wants, on a closed track with no risk to civilians. Americans love dem races 
(and crashes).

 

Lee

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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

> Maybe the FSD starts taking more risks too...because the Tesla
> Overlords decide they like it that way and they want to test their
> new more edgy aggressive modes.   Maybe tailgating, or speeding,
> or passingall because FSD is just so much "better" than humans.

Aha! Let's start testing FSD in race cars! It can drive as aggressively as it 
wants, on a closed track with no risk to civilians. Americans love dem races 
(and crashes).

Lee
--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Maybe the FSD starts taking more risks too...because the Tesla Overlords decide 
they like it that way and they want to test their new more edgy aggressive 
modes.   Maybe tailgating, or speeding, or passingall because FSD is just 
so much "better" than humans.
 

On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 09:31:09 AM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Guilty... I'm one of those "slow" drivers that generally drives at (or below) 
the speed limit. I often follow trucks at night or in bad weather, so I'm not 
the one that hits the deer or something else in the road that I can't see.

FSD is technically impressive; but I wonder about the unintended consequences.

- When people started using calculators, they could no longer do math in their 
heads.
- When they started depending on spell checkers, they stopped learning how to 
spell.
- When they depend on their cellphone for everything, they can't remember phone 
numbers or addresses.
- Features like antilock brakes and traction control already mean that most 
people can't drive in poor traction conditions without  it.

So, will all the features of FSD wind up "un-teaching" people how to drive? 
I.e. as the cars gets better, will the drivers get *worse*?

Lee
--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Ed Blackmond via EV]

Lee,

First, let me take this opportunity to thank you for all your informative posts 
to this list.  They have provided me with a tremendous learning experience 
showing me practical applications for much of the theory I learned in school.

Having said that, I have a different perspective on the points you make below.

> On May 4, 2024, at 9:06 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> FSD is technically impressive; but I wonder about the unintended consequences.
> 
> - When people started using calculators, they could no longer do math in 
> their heads.
Being able to do math (arithmetic?) in one's head is nowhere near as important 
as understanding what the math is modeling and how to use math to model a 
problem you are trying to solve.  Certainly, it is important to learn basic 
arithmetic and what it is used for, but I don’t think it is necessary to be 
able to multiply three digit numbers together one's head.  I do believe it is 
important to understand and be able to do enough in one’s head to make 
reasonable estimations.  I also think it is important to understand logarithms 
and trigonometric functions, but its not necessary to memorize the tables.  Oh, 
and of course significant figures must also be understood (calculators have 
really destroyed this).

> - When they started depending on spell checkers, they stopped learning how to 
> spell.
Similarly, being able to spell is nowhere near as important as being able to 
express complete thoughts coherently in full sentences and paragraphs.  It does 
not matter if it takes a spell checker to make sure words are spelled 
correctly.  It only matters that the words are spelled correctly so readers 
will pay attention to the thoughts being expressed.  However it is important to 
understand the differences between words like to, too, and two, or through and 
threw, or their, there, and they’re, and to use those words correctly.

> - When they depend on their cellphone for everything, they can't remember 
> phone numbers or addresses.
Memory is important, but from what I’ve read, remembering trivia such as 
somebody’s phone number or address does not positively impact the ability to 
think.  I used to get comments back on my tests telling me I didn’t have to 
derive the equation because it was covered it in class.  I could have just 
plugged the numbers from the problem statement into the equation.  However, for 
me, I remembered the theory behind the equation, not the equation itself, so I 
did have to derive the equation.

> - Features like antilock brakes and traction control already mean that most 
> people can't drive in poor traction conditions without  it.
I have never seen any studies on this topic, but I’m inclined to believe that 
these features were invented because most (at least very many) people had 
difficulty driving in poor traction conditions.  Seat belts, child car seats, 
and airbags were invented for similar reasons.

> 
> So, will all the features of FSD wind up "un-teaching" people how to drive? 
> I.e. as the cars gets better, will the drivers get *worse*?
If full self driving systems ever live up to their promise, will this matter?  
What happens between now and then is a different issue.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

Guilty... I'm one of those "slow" drivers that generally drives at (or below) 
the speed limit. I often follow trucks at night or in bad weather, so I'm not 
the one that hits the deer or something else in the road that I can't see.

FSD is technically impressive; but I wonder about the unintended consequences.

- When people started using calculators, they could no longer do math in their 
heads.
- When they started depending on spell checkers, they stopped learning how to 
spell.
- When they depend on their cellphone for everything, they can't remember phone 
numbers or addresses.
- Features like antilock brakes and traction control already mean that most 
people can't drive in poor traction conditions without  it.

So, will all the features of FSD wind up "un-teaching" people how to drive? 
I.e. as the cars gets better, will the drivers get *worse*?

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[George Mullineaux via EV]

How I guess they are not paying attention:
Driving in one of the 2 middle lanes of a 4 lane highway.
Cell phone on the steering wheel (I drive mostly at night so 
the glow is obvious).
Following at the minimum distance the adaptive cruise will 
probably allow.
Arriving on my rear bumper seemingly dropping out of light 
speed.
Staying behind me until I change lanes to exit, then they are 
off to the races again.
Doesn’t seem to be a lack of need for speed, just didn’t recognize that they 
were slowing down. With the cruise set for a farther following distance, it is 
easy to pay attention to the upcoming traffic to safely change lanes and 
continue on your merry way. Me personally, that involves traveling at the speed 
limit. I may not be in a hurry, but following closely is not my idea of safe 
driving, unless the speed has greatly decreased.

I believe that FSD may become a safer option opposed to error prone humans, but 
I personally just don’t care for it. Adaptive cruise is not even my preferred 
manner of driving. Simple cruise control is what I use in my vehicle. I have 
not yet become an EV driver, so I still drive older ice’s without the bells and 
whistles. I have been watching this list for a few years since my interest in 
EVs has been fanned by the Tesla craze. Hope to join the club of EV drivers 
soon.

George Mullineaux
3rd Shift Maintenace Technician
Pinnacle Corrugated, Landis, NC
[cid:image001.jpg@01DA9E71.3D5BCB50]

From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 3:42 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: EV List Lackey 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

On 4 May 2024 at 4:55, George Mullineaux via EV wrote: > I see too many drivers 
that get stuck behind a slower vehicle o͏​​‌͏
[External 
email]<https://summary.us1.defend.egress.com/v3/summary?ref=email=663690bc1a6964302c6048e8=en>
External email 
<https://summary.us1.defend.egress.com/v3/summary?ref=email=663690bc1a6964302c6048e8=en>
[External 
email]<https://summary.us1.defend.egress.com/v3/summary?ref=email=663690bc1a6964302c6048e8=en>


On 4 May 2024 at 4:55, George Mullineaux via EV wrote:



> I see too many drivers that get stuck behind a slower vehicle on the

> highway because their cruise control has slowed down their vehicle to

> match the leading one.



I wonder how you can tell the difference between a driver who isn't ;paying

attention, and one who's just satisfied with the speed and sees no need to

pass.



Actually, I don't see how one would dare not pay attention, even with fancy

cruise control.  You still have to steer, no?



Anyway, we're those folks who stay behind the slow traffic because we don't

want or need to go faster.  If we're not in a hurry, which is most of the

time, we'd rather go slower and save electricity, range, and battery life.



If we passed that slow traffic, we wouldn't want to go much over the speed

limit.  We'd have impatient drivers riding our bumper.  So we hang out in

the right lane with the relaxed crowd and life is good.



David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey



To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my

offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt



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 I don't want to live forever.  I just never want to die.



 -- Zack Weinersmith



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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Ed Blackmond via EV]

> On May 3, 2024, at 9:55 PM, George Mullineaux via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I see too many drivers that get stuck behind a slower vehicle on the highway 
> because their cruise control has slowed down their vehicle to match the 
> leading one. 

This reminds me of a story.  I used to be VP of engineering for a small 
computer company manufacturing thermal and kinetic ruggedized systems.  Our 
systems were mostly used in military applications, but we also met the 
requirements of companies developing automated driving systems.  Once on a 
visit to a customer site they related one of their current problems.  
Apparently their vehicles would navigate nicely, but when something like a 
delivery vehicle stopped in a driving lane because it couldn’t get to the curb, 
their vehicles would safely pull up behind it and wait for it to go.  They were 
attempting to train their software to navigate around the stopped vehicle.  I 
suggested that they just honk the horn.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 5/4/24 15:41, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:


Anyway, we're those folks who stay behind the slow traffic because we don't
want or need to go faster.  If we're not in a hurry, which is most of the
time, we'd rather go slower and save electricity, range, and battery life.


Heh, I guess I'm not the only one who sits well behind a slow semi 
truck, letting everyone behind me blame them for my slow speed, and 
knowing that anybody who whips around me to pass won't pull right in 
front of me because they don't want to be behind the semi truck


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 4 May 2024 at 4:55, George Mullineaux via EV wrote:

> I see too many drivers that get stuck behind a slower vehicle on the
> highway because their cruise control has slowed down their vehicle to
> match the leading one. 

I wonder how you can tell the difference between a driver who isn't ;paying 
attention, and one who's just satisfied with the speed and sees no need to 
pass.  

Actually, I don't see how one would dare not pay attention, even with fancy 
cruise control.  You still have to steer, no?

Anyway, we're those folks who stay behind the slow traffic because we don't 
want or need to go faster.  If we're not in a hurry, which is most of the 
time, we'd rather go slower and save electricity, range, and battery life.  

If we passed that slow traffic, we wouldn't want to go much over the speed 
limit.  We'd have impatient drivers riding our bumper.  So we hang out in 
the right lane with the relaxed crowd and life is good.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 I don't want to live forever.  I just never want to die.

 -- Zack Weinersmith

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[George Mullineaux via EV]

I do not know if there is any compilation of preferences on the topic of 
self-driving cars (not the truest description, but one that most people seem to 
use), but I would like to throw down 2 cents worth of opinion. I see too many 
drivers that get stuck behind a slower vehicle on the highway because their 
cruise control has slowed down their vehicle to match the leading one. 
Obviously, the driver is not paying any attention to what is going on around 
them. With that simple example of the car making decisions, it is not the 
“training of the AI” that is as important as the training of the humans. Or 
have the humans actually been trained to let the machine do all the work, and 
sit back, and enjoy the ride! So, I personally have no desire to have, let 
alone pay for that convenience. I even prefer manual transmissions (even at 67 
with bad knees).

George Mullineaux
3rd Shift Maintenace Technician
Pinnacle Corrugated, Landis, NC
[cid:image001.jpg@01DA9DBC.139E12B0]



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