Re: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

[ken via EV]

 I have the ev power moduals also . just HV/ LV make it hard to know whats
going on . I'd use water heater elements or dryer elements for the
draining/ testing . then use the volt meter when the LV comes and watch
the red/green lights .  my 24 cell scooter has gbs cells, so I got "cell
log 8 s"
with the logging and can ride download. I can also set it to alarm at semi
LV . all gets down to time n money .

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Re: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

I know exactly the problem that Mike B is having.  The older MiniBMS modules 
can indicate the cell having issues (green light goes out) but only when under 
load.  The newest modules latch the condition and keep the light off for some 
time, which is handy.

I may have some similar testing in my future.  Thanks for the information.

Mike


On June 23, 2016 12:32:11 PM MDT, Cor van de Water via EV  
wrote:
>Mike,
>there are two approaches if your BMS has no capability to tell you
>which
>cell is low,
>one is the scientific approach of using a dummy load and measuring
>time and voltage to minimum cutoff, this will give you numbers on the
>current capacity of your pack. Just in case I ever wanted to do this
>myself, I saved the heating element of a pool pump which is 240V 40A or
>so, so its resistance is about 6 Ohms and makes a nice dummy load for a
>host of tests.
>
>The other approach that is a lot less invasive and time consuming is to
>simply drive the vehicle until it throws the low cell alarm,
>park the car with the parking brake tightly set, hook up a voltmeter to
>a small group of cells and blip the trottle for a second.
>NOTE that when a DC motor can't turn, you must make sure it does not
>get
>loaded with high current for more than a few seconds or it will burn up
>the position that it is in!
>Since these are CALB cells (LiFePO4) all good cells will still sit at
>the default 3.2V while a low cell will fall through the  floor and dip
>below 2.5V so you can measure 10 groups of 4 cells and likely there
>will
>be 9 groups that stay pretty solid near 13V minus wire resistance drop
>and there will be one group that will drop closer to 12V minus wire
>drop.
>
>NOTE that a higher resistance wire connection *can* cause the BMS to
>see
>a low cell if it measures across cell + wire (which is common) so it
>might turn out to be 40 perfect cells and a corroded or loose terminal.
>
>Success!
>
>Cor van de Water 
>Chief Scientist 
>Proxim Wireless 
>  
>office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
>XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
>
>http://www.proxim.com
>
>This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>and
>proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>received
>this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>this message is prohibited.
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mike Beem via
>EV
>Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:03 AM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing
>
>I spent some time looking through the archive, but couldn't find what
>I'm
>looking for--> I think I have one weak cell in my 40 cell 100 Ah pack;
>I'm
>getting a low battery signal (mini BMS) under load when there is more
>than
>sufficient range left on the charge. These are CALB batteries which I
>installed in December 2012. I recently tried going through and
>individually
>charging each one to 3.5v (after charging the whole pack to shut-off
>point)
>with my variable power supply, and at 2 amps maximum, it took me almost
>2
>weeks of not driving the EV (http://www.evalbum.com/4181) to get all
>the
>way through, so I used a timer, which of course, would defeat the whole
>process by not being able to WAIT for 3.5v on every one...
>When I first started driving it with the new pack in 2012, it did have
>the
>40 mile range I aimed for when I put this together. I have only driven
>it
>to the limit of the pack once since then, and it was in a colder winter
>than we usually have, so I wasn't surprised to have much less range.
>I need an easy to put together load I can use with a voltmeter to test
>cells, and a range for what voltage drop on these CALB cells would be
>normal or weak. I got fairly good at this with lead acid, both flooded
>and
>AGM, but don't have the experience or science to know if, 1) this is a
>reasonable way to proceed, and, 2) what those voltage-drop decision
>points
>would be, and, 3) what components to use for the load?
>Thank you!
>Michael B
>-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

[Michael Ross via EV]

I have seen people use rebar, and welded wire fencing. The rebar guy laid
it on a bare sandy patch of ground, Jack Rickard bent a 20ft piece halfway
and hung it from his shop ceiling (put 1000A through it). The fence guy
rolled up the fencing and stood it in a trash can of water. I made an
accordion of rebar by welding 18in pieces together so it wouldn't take up
much space. I have not used it yet, but I can't see a problem with it. I
have a shunt and a JLD404 to measure it. This is for doing a pack but the
same hardware can work for cells.
On Jun 23, 2016 2:02 PM, "Mike Beem via EV"  wrote:

I spent some time looking through the archive, but couldn't find what I'm
looking for--> I think I have one weak cell in my 40 cell 100 Ah pack; I'm
getting a low battery signal (mini BMS) under load when there is more than
sufficient range left on the charge. These are CALB batteries which I
installed in December 2012. I recently tried going through and individually
charging each one to 3.5v (after charging the whole pack to shut-off point)
with my variable power supply, and at 2 amps maximum, it took me almost 2
weeks of not driving the EV (http://www.evalbum.com/4181) to get all the
way through, so I used a timer, which of course, would defeat the whole
process by not being able to WAIT for 3.5v on every one...
When I first started driving it with the new pack in 2012, it did have the
40 mile range I aimed for when I put this together. I have only driven it
to the limit of the pack once since then, and it was in a colder winter
than we usually have, so I wasn't surprised to have much less range.
I need an easy to put together load I can use with a voltmeter to test
cells, and a range for what voltage drop on these CALB cells would be
normal or weak. I got fairly good at this with lead acid, both flooded and
AGM, but don't have the experience or science to know if, 1) this is a
reasonable way to proceed, and, 2) what those voltage-drop decision points
would be, and, 3) what components to use for the load?
Thank you!
Michael B
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

For EV battery testing, I use heating coils from a derelict home heat pump 
as a dummy load.  I rigged a fan to blow over them.  It heats the garage a 
bit in the winter.

If you don't own a dummy load, you might try this: drive the car until it 
alarms.  Park it and turn on the heater.  Measure cell voltages.  

It's not very precise, but at least with lead batteries, sometimes the 
heater is enough of a load to show the culprit.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

[Gary Krysztopik via EV]

These little cell loggers work great - one logs and one just displays.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=celllog

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 1:21 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:

> I assume you want a way to discharge the cells to find the culprit?
> Get something like this.
> 250watt 0.1 ohm Resistorhttp://
> store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=250wresistor
> and one of these because you can hook up to a PC and record the data with
> time stamps.
> TekPower TP4000ZC PC based RS232-Interfaced Auto RangingDigital
> Multimeter, MS8220R Alikehttps://
> www.amazon.com/TekPower-TP4000ZC-RS232-Interfaced-Ranging-Multimeter/dp/B000OPDFLM
> You can do groups like Cor said to narrow it down. You should see a
> significant difference in voltage drop under load if you have a bad cell.
> You can also use this meter to easily calculate amp hours in or out since
> you can save the data to an spreadsheet format.
> You could also buy a powerlab 6 because they will discharge as well. Or a
> regular battery load tester.
> They make them for lithium chemistries. Something like this should work.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Intelligent-Capacity-Discharger-Resistance/dp/B0178P8H9U
>
> Unless I misunderstood what you are asking.
> In addition to how fast the voltage drops you can measure the resistance
> of the cells and the speed at which the cell recovers voltage after
> removing the load. You should be able to spot one out of family.
>
>
>
>   From: Mike Beem via EV 
>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>  Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 1:02 PM
>  Subject: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing
>
> I spent some time looking through the archive, but couldn't find what I'm
> looking for--> I think I have one weak cell in my 40 cell 100 Ah pack; I'm
> getting a low battery signal (mini BMS) under load when there is more than
> sufficient range left on the charge. These are CALB batteries which I
> installed in December 2012. I recently tried going through and individually
> charging each one to 3.5v (after charging the whole pack to shut-off point)
> with my variable power supply, and at 2 amps maximum, it took me almost 2
> weeks of not driving the EV (http://www.evalbum.com/4181) to get all the
> way through, so I used a timer, which of course, would defeat the whole
> process by not being able to WAIT for 3.5v on every one...
> When I first started driving it with the new pack in 2012, it did have the
> 40 mile range I aimed for when I put this together. I have only driven it
> to the limit of the pack once since then, and it was in a colder winter
> than we usually have, so I wasn't surprised to have much less range.
> I need an easy to put together load I can use with a voltmeter to test
> cells, and a range for what voltage drop on these CALB cells would be
> normal or weak. I got fairly good at this with lead acid, both flooded and
> AGM, but don't have the experience or science to know if, 1) this is a
> reasonable way to proceed, and, 2) what those voltage-drop decision points
> would be, and, 3) what components to use for the load?
> Thank you!
> Michael B
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

[paul dove via EV]

I assume you want a way to discharge the cells to find the culprit?
Get something like this.
250watt 0.1 ohm Resistorhttp://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=250wresistor
and one of these because you can hook up to a PC and record the data with time 
stamps.
TekPower TP4000ZC PC based RS232-Interfaced Auto RangingDigital Multimeter, 
MS8220R 
Alikehttps://www.amazon.com/TekPower-TP4000ZC-RS232-Interfaced-Ranging-Multimeter/dp/B000OPDFLM
You can do groups like Cor said to narrow it down. You should see a significant 
difference in voltage drop under load if you have a bad cell. You can also use 
this meter to easily calculate amp hours in or out since you can save the data 
to an spreadsheet format.
You could also buy a powerlab 6 because they will discharge as well. Or a 
regular battery load tester.
They make them for lithium chemistries. Something like this should work.
https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Intelligent-Capacity-Discharger-Resistance/dp/B0178P8H9U

Unless I misunderstood what you are asking.
In addition to how fast the voltage drops you can measure the resistance of the 
cells and the speed at which the cell recovers voltage after removing the load. 
You should be able to spot one out of family.



  From: Mike Beem via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 1:02 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing
   
I spent some time looking through the archive, but couldn't find what I'm
looking for--> I think I have one weak cell in my 40 cell 100 Ah pack; I'm
getting a low battery signal (mini BMS) under load when there is more than
sufficient range left on the charge. These are CALB batteries which I
installed in December 2012. I recently tried going through and individually
charging each one to 3.5v (after charging the whole pack to shut-off point)
with my variable power supply, and at 2 amps maximum, it took me almost 2
weeks of not driving the EV (http://www.evalbum.com/4181) to get all the
way through, so I used a timer, which of course, would defeat the whole
process by not being able to WAIT for 3.5v on every one...
When I first started driving it with the new pack in 2012, it did have the
40 mile range I aimed for when I put this together. I have only driven it
to the limit of the pack once since then, and it was in a colder winter
than we usually have, so I wasn't surprised to have much less range.
I need an easy to put together load I can use with a voltmeter to test
cells, and a range for what voltage drop on these CALB cells would be
normal or weak. I got fairly good at this with lead acid, both flooded and
AGM, but don't have the experience or science to know if, 1) this is a
reasonable way to proceed, and, 2) what those voltage-drop decision points
would be, and, 3) what components to use for the load?
Thank you!
Michael B
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

[Mike Beem via EV]

Thank you Cor! This is exactly what I needed to learn more than I do now.
This amazing group of EV creators has made it possible for me to drive
electric since 1999, and you are one of the members whose posts I always
read.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> Mike,
> there are two approaches if your BMS has no capability to tell you which
> cell is low,
> one is the scientific approach of using a dummy load and measuring
> time and voltage to minimum cutoff, this will give you numbers on the
> current capacity of your pack. Just in case I ever wanted to do this
> myself, I saved the heating element of a pool pump which is 240V 40A or
> so, so its resistance is about 6 Ohms and makes a nice dummy load for a
> host of tests.
>
> The other approach that is a lot less invasive and time consuming is to
> simply drive the vehicle until it throws the low cell alarm,
> park the car with the parking brake tightly set, hook up a voltmeter to
> a small group of cells and blip the trottle for a second.
> NOTE that when a DC motor can't turn, you must make sure it does not get
> loaded with high current for more than a few seconds or it will burn up
> the position that it is in!
> Since these are CALB cells (LiFePO4) all good cells will still sit at
> the default 3.2V while a low cell will fall through the  floor and dip
> below 2.5V so you can measure 10 groups of 4 cells and likely there will
> be 9 groups that stay pretty solid near 13V minus wire resistance drop
> and there will be one group that will drop closer to 12V minus wire
> drop.
>
> NOTE that a higher resistance wire connection *can* cause the BMS to see
> a low cell if it measures across cell + wire (which is common) so it
> might turn out to be 40 perfect cells and a corroded or loose terminal.
>
> Success!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mike Beem via
> EV
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing
>
> I spent some time looking through the archive, but couldn't find what
> I'm
> looking for--> I think I have one weak cell in my 40 cell 100 Ah pack;
> I'm
> getting a low battery signal (mini BMS) under load when there is more
> than
> sufficient range left on the charge. These are CALB batteries which I
> installed in December 2012. I recently tried going through and
> individually
> charging each one to 3.5v (after charging the whole pack to shut-off
> point)
> with my variable power supply, and at 2 amps maximum, it took me almost
> 2
> weeks of not driving the EV (http://www.evalbum.com/4181) to get all the
> way through, so I used a timer, which of course, would defeat the whole
> process by not being able to WAIT for 3.5v on every one...
> When I first started driving it with the new pack in 2012, it did have
> the
> 40 mile range I aimed for when I put this together. I have only driven
> it
> to the limit of the pack once since then, and it was in a colder winter
> than we usually have, so I wasn't surprised to have much less range.
> I need an easy to put together load I can use with a voltmeter to test
> cells, and a range for what voltage drop on these CALB cells would be
> normal or weak. I got fairly good at this with lead acid, both flooded
> and
> AGM, but don't have the experience or science to know if, 1) this is a
> reasonable way to proceed, and, 2) what those voltage-drop decision
> points
> would be, and, 3) what components to use for the load?
> Thank you!
> Michael B
> -- next part --
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Mike,
there are two approaches if your BMS has no capability to tell you which
cell is low,
one is the scientific approach of using a dummy load and measuring
time and voltage to minimum cutoff, this will give you numbers on the
current capacity of your pack. Just in case I ever wanted to do this
myself, I saved the heating element of a pool pump which is 240V 40A or
so, so its resistance is about 6 Ohms and makes a nice dummy load for a
host of tests.

The other approach that is a lot less invasive and time consuming is to
simply drive the vehicle until it throws the low cell alarm,
park the car with the parking brake tightly set, hook up a voltmeter to
a small group of cells and blip the trottle for a second.
NOTE that when a DC motor can't turn, you must make sure it does not get
loaded with high current for more than a few seconds or it will burn up
the position that it is in!
Since these are CALB cells (LiFePO4) all good cells will still sit at
the default 3.2V while a low cell will fall through the  floor and dip
below 2.5V so you can measure 10 groups of 4 cells and likely there will
be 9 groups that stay pretty solid near 13V minus wire resistance drop
and there will be one group that will drop closer to 12V minus wire
drop.

NOTE that a higher resistance wire connection *can* cause the BMS to see
a low cell if it measures across cell + wire (which is common) so it
might turn out to be 40 perfect cells and a corroded or loose terminal.

Success!

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mike Beem via
EV
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Lithium Battery Testing

I spent some time looking through the archive, but couldn't find what
I'm
looking for--> I think I have one weak cell in my 40 cell 100 Ah pack;
I'm
getting a low battery signal (mini BMS) under load when there is more
than
sufficient range left on the charge. These are CALB batteries which I
installed in December 2012. I recently tried going through and
individually
charging each one to 3.5v (after charging the whole pack to shut-off
point)
with my variable power supply, and at 2 amps maximum, it took me almost
2
weeks of not driving the EV (http://www.evalbum.com/4181) to get all the
way through, so I used a timer, which of course, would defeat the whole
process by not being able to WAIT for 3.5v on every one...
When I first started driving it with the new pack in 2012, it did have
the
40 mile range I aimed for when I put this together. I have only driven
it
to the limit of the pack once since then, and it was in a colder winter
than we usually have, so I wasn't surprised to have much less range.
I need an easy to put together load I can use with a voltmeter to test
cells, and a range for what voltage drop on these CALB cells would be
normal or weak. I got fairly good at this with lead acid, both flooded
and
AGM, but don't have the experience or science to know if, 1) this is a
reasonable way to proceed, and, 2) what those voltage-drop decision
points
would be, and, 3) what components to use for the load?
Thank you!
Michael B
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