date:20140624



On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:29, John Clark wrote:

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 3:02 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be  
wrote:



 according to you not believing in God is a variant of  
Christianity, and obviously believing in God is another variant of  
Christianity, therefore every human being who ever lived is a  
Christian except for those who don't believe in God AND don't don't  
believe in God. From this I conclude that one of the following  
statements must be true:


1) If ET exists then he's a Christian too.
2) Bruno Marchal is not a logician.

 Please focus on the logical point, and avoid ad hominem things.

The fact that you believe a purely logical analysis is a ad hominem  
only reinforces my point. But prove me wrong, show me the error in  
my logic.


Easy. You predict W  M. But none of the W-guy can confirm, as they  
know they must write the city they see from their first person views  
after the duplication, and both sees only one city, so both refute  
your prediction. Your error consists in describing the 3-view on the 1- 
views, when the 1-views itself are concerned.


Bruno






  John K Clark


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Re: Pluto bounces back!



On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:39, Richard Ruquist wrote:





On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be  
wrote:

Dear John,

 it is wasted time and effort to argue who is right in a question  
that raises 2 billion children in a 'faith' they will live by - AND  
such 'faith' does include the killing of 'infidels' (meaning: who  
do not share their faith to the last comma) and many more  
peculiarities which our part of the world would not accept anymore.  
There is no question about 'truth', believability, oracles and  
supernatural wisdom, there is a 1500 year old power over billions  
of people with no questions asking and willing to do whatever they  
believe has to be done.


It is the same problem with christianism, but such structure has  
shown to be able to evolve a bit. Then I would differentiate  
muslims, literalist muslim, and fanatics. Only the later are  
dangerous.


I think that Samiya is open to discussion, even if it is not clear  
how far she is to doubt the literal Quran, which of course is  
necessary at the start if only to see if it contains anything  
scientific (in physics, biology, ... but also theology).


This hides the real roots of fundamentalism which is that we have  
forbid the use of science (that is the skeptical spirit since well,  
indeed 1500 years.



Regarding skepticism, the High Holy Days service of Judaism contains  
a prayer for the value of doubt. Not sure how far back the origin of  
that prayer is in time, but it certainly contributes to regard that  
Jews have for science.


Interesting. In fact judaism; like taoism, and branches of buddhism  
encourage the comments to the sacred texts, and allow a sort of  
jurisprudence making possible some notion of amendment, and favorize  
the non literal reading of texts.




Google does not seem to know of its existence.


The net does not know everything, and contains a lot of propaganda of  
many kinds.


Bruno





Richard



There were argumentations a millennium ago, but the sword answered.
Wars and wars.
We have different vocabularies and both sides understand things  
differently.


Those are political, if not economical war, disguised in religious  
war.






I do not say which part is 'better-or-worse' I am just sorry for an  
advanced worldview getting erased by a violent ancient force that  
overwhelms our civilisation. (Q: are WE civil, indeed?)


An ancient force like fire can erase in few weeks what needed an  
incredibly long/deep history like a tree or a forest.


It is in the nature of wiseness and advanced mind to be the easy  
prey for violence.


Are we civil? Well, officially, the US is no more since the 31  
december 2011 (NDAA 12).  But the bad seed comes from something  
older than Kennedy's assassination.


There is a problem with radical islamism, but the real problem is in  
the exploitation of that problem by bandits to hide their lucrative  
criminal activities.


The war on drugs and the war on terror are de facto non stopping  
wars which constantly create and fuel its enemy.


The value of money is based on trust which needs *fair* competition,  
and a notion of genuine use, but the society get a cancer when money  
is used to create fake money, based on lies or on problems created  
for that purpose.


Bandits might be a progress compared to dictator using god to  
justify its job. So we are not civil, but still can become.


Virgin lôbian number seem civil at the start. Uncivilness seems to  
be only a bad habit, a passage similar to some dilemmas in game  
theory, when you can make a very big win by ceasing cooperation. May  
be that's a devil's temptation, or the fall from sane egoism into  
psychopathic or paranoid egocentrism.


Bruno



John M


On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be  
wrote:


On 29 May 2014, at 05:33, Samiya Illias wrote:




On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes  
te...@telmomenezes.com wrote:



Ok, so let's talk some specifics.

Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic  
expression. Famously on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and  
several people for drawing Mohammed. When I was living in Paris,  
the building of a small publication was bombed for publishing a  
drawing of Mohammed.


The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the  
company of those who blaspheme, till they do not change to another  
topic. It does not prescribe any of the above forms of punishment.


OK.






Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being  
raped, their husbands are allowed to beat them (against their  
will, I have nothing against consensual BDSM), they are sentenced  
to stoning to death for adultery (even when they were raped),  
they have to dress in a certain way and can be publicly lashed  
for not doing so and they are prevented from going to school.  
Even recently, young girls were attacked for attending school.



The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for

Re: American Intelligence


 

 On 24 Jun 2014, at 2:38 pm, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:
 
 Sure there are some A-holes in every bunch, but for the most part in my 
 experience people – everywhere -- are not the problem it is systems (be they 
 political, religious or economic) that dehumanize people till they march lock 
 step like programmed robots, following their deeply embedded unexamined 
 notions…. implanted deep into the wetware of their minds by practitioners of 
 the dark art of propaganda (e.g. marketing).

Who (or what) creates the systems? How can systems not be a people problem? 
Systems ARE people interacting in many ways and on many different levels. I've 
never met a system involving people that self-created. People ARE the problem! 
They invent the systems. Go figure.

Kim

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Re: Disproving physicalism from COMP

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



On 24 Jun 2014, at 07:04, meekerdb wrote:


On 6/22/2014 11:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 20 Jun 2014, at 01:20, Russell Standish wrote:


On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 07:53:55PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote:






And why do you say that anybody (whether zombie or not) can  
*prove*

the existence of primitive matter? We don't know that for a fact.


I played the devil advocate. I put my foot in Peter Jones' food,  
and

imagine he could convince us of the existence of primitive matter,
and from that I get a contradiction.

In the case such a valid proof exist, it is just trivial to  
make a

mechanical procedure to find it, that's why I said any zombie can
find it. Validity is a recursive/decidable/total-computable/sigma_0
notion, unlike provability, which is sigma_1 (partial-computable,
semi-decidable), and consistency, which is pi_1 (like Riemann
Hypothesis).



Ah, yes I see that now. I guess I was implicitly assuming that  
such a

proof didn't necessarily exist. Non-existence of the proof does not
entail that primitive matter doesn't exist.

But I understand you've now shown that such a proof cannot exist. I
wasn't party to your conversations with Peter Jones (I probably  
skipped

over them at the time when they got interminably long), so cannot
comment how that result fits in with that discussion. But I don't  
see

how you parlay this into a proof of step 8.


It's nice that the misunderstanding is cleared up.

I have to think more.

If primitive matter existed, and if it has a role for  
consciousness, or for consciousness instantiation, step 8, and the  
argument above, makes that role very mysterious, so much that it is  
not clear why we could still say yes to the doctor in virtue of  
correct digital rendering.


You can still say yes to the doctor because he is going to use  
matter to make your brain prosthesis.


Sure, but the step 8 shows that in such a case consciousness cannot  
rely on comp, but on some magical, non Turing emulable, and non FPI  
recoverable properties of matter. But that amount to say that comp is  
false, so why not test this, as such a test is offered by the  
reasoning. So, asking for primitive matter to refute the reasoning is  
making such notion of matter equivalent with don't ask. That is the  
point. You could use holly matter instead of primitive matter with the  
same effect. Materialist are doing the same error than the creationist  
here.
Keep in mind that primitive matter is a metaphysical notion, and  
nobody has ever try to define it, and of course nobody has ever seen  
it, or even define it. Actually UDA is the first to do that: provide a  
way to test it (assuming we are not dreaming).


Bruno






Brent



Then that primitive matter should be detectible by the comp  
argument, so the argument for reifying primitive matter is made  
into an argument of not searching to test its existence, which is  
unscientific.


But I have to clarify the relation between both arguments. No doubt.

Best,

Bruno


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RE: American Intelligence

-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kim Jones
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 12:47 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: American Intelligence

 On 24 Jun 2014, at 2:38 pm, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Sure there are some A-holes in every bunch, but for the most part in my 
 experience people – everywhere -- are not the problem it is systems (be they 
 political, religious or economic) that dehumanize people till they march lock 
 step like programmed robots, following their deeply embedded unexamined 
 notions…. implanted deep into the wetware of their minds by practitioners of 
 the dark art of propaganda (e.g. marketing).

Who (or what) creates the systems? How can systems not be a people problem? 
Systems ARE people interacting in many ways and on many different levels. I've 
never met a system involving people that self-created. People ARE the problem! 
They invent the systems. Go figure.

True perhaps, but systems take on a life and momentum of their own... go figure.
Chris

Kim

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Re: Germany sets record for peak energy use - 50 percent comes from solar (Update)

I just learned that this is the 351st consecutive month where the global
temperature was hotter than the 20th century average. (On the plus side, my
hot flushes can be explained...)

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Re: Germany sets record for peak energy use - 50 percent comes from solar (Update)

How do we go with Iceland's model? 100% renewables. Just a small countrybut 
they jailed the banksters. No one else did that.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Iceland

Kim

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Re: Disproving physicalism from COMP

On 24 June 2014 17:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


 If primitive matter existed, and if it has a role for consciousness, or
 for consciousness instantiation, step 8, and the argument above, makes that
 role very mysterious, so much that it is not clear why we could still say
 yes to the doctor in virtue of correct digital rendering.


 You can still say yes to the doctor because he is going to use matter to
 make your brain prosthesis.


Surely that will just be a copy that thinks it's you - it won't be you, so
if you are destroyed in the process of making the digital copy, you really
do die. While in comp the digital copy *is* you, by definition.

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Re: American Intelligence

Of course my founding post to this thread was racist. It was a clear attempt 
to label a box and to shove all Americans in there. Not very smart, you 
suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the inherent racism of what I 
said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that still racism? It's not that I am 
a racist, but I definitely felt there to be a point in saying something that 
might strike others as racist because this is a good way to put people on their 
toes. It was done for a purpose to do with creative thinking. That purpose is 
an operation known as provocation. I am provoking others to respond, in order 
to see the thinking. In fact I am not racist at all because I admire Americans 
greatly. How could one not. But I wrote something racist in order to see 
whether some others might see that they were being provoked. Provocation is 
sometimes necessary in order that people see things they feel they know very 
well in a new light. Creative thinking is taking existing information and 
extracting new value from it.

For example, had I said the following:

America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom the 
world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans are all 
natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive way better 
than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new idea in America 
because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it and help it to come to 
fruition, particularly if that idea helps support the cause of freedom and 
successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.

- would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical; I have 
a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should be clear: 
what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the thinker, and those 
values are based on their 1p experiences. 

That's what perception is. Perception is first order thinking which is to say 
more a statement about ourselves, not at all the thing we would like others to 
believe we are talking about. The very first thing we experience in any 
exchange or encounter with the outside world is not the outside world at all, 
but ourselves. We meet ourselves in everything we say and do. 

To continue with perception for a moment: I said above that Americans love 
freedom, America is the land of the free etc. All this is true. But it is true 
in only a limited sense. It is true in the sense that choices are able to be 
made without coercion or force being applied. For example, an man sits at a 
table in a restaraunt in France and is presented with a choice of beverages. 
There is wine, there is cognac, there is cider, there is champagne and there is 
Budweiser beer. The man freely chooses the beer. A free choice is made. But the 
choice is made not out of curiosity but out of familiarity. Is that still 
freedom of choice? If you are ignorant of the qualities of the various 
alternatives to your preferred choice, in what sense are you making a free 
choice? More likely you are shackled to your preference.

When we do creative thinking, we learn to take familiar situations and traverse 
a different path in thinking about them. This requires training and is not at 
all a natural habit of mind.

Kim

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Re: American Intelligence

2014-06-24 Thread Telmo Menezes

I have to say, I find it a bit silly when people identify too much with
their nationality (or profession, or gender...) to the point that they get
offended when a generic remark is made.

It is fairly obvious that Kim is not suggesting that Chris or Brent or any
other specific American in this list is a person of low intelligence. The
generalisation per se might be without merit, but even so it's perhaps a
good exercise in to learn to tolerate it.

We have more in common with each other than with the average citizen of any
of our respective countries.
Why care so much about imaginary lines in the ground?

Cheers,
Telmo.



On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote:

 Of course my founding post to this thread was racist. It was a clear
 attempt to label a box and to shove all Americans in there. Not very smart,
 you suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the inherent racism of
 what I said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that still racism? It's
 not that I am a racist, but I definitely felt there to be a point in saying
 something that might strike others as racist because this is a good way to
 put people on their toes. It was done for a purpose to do with creative
 thinking. That purpose is an operation known as provocation. I am
 provoking others to respond, in order to see the thinking. In fact I am not
 racist at all because I admire Americans greatly. How could one not. But I
 wrote something racist in order to see whether some others might see that
 they were being provoked. Provocation is sometimes necessary in order that
 people see things they feel they know very well in a new light. Creative
 thinking is taking existing information and extracting new value from it.

 For example, had I said the following:

 America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom
 the world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans
 are all natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive
 way better than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new
 idea in America because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it
 and help it to come to fruition, particularly if that idea helps support
 the cause of freedom and successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.

 - would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical; I
 have a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should be
 clear: what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the thinker,
 and those values are based on their 1p experiences.

 That's what perception is. Perception is first order thinking which is
 to say more a statement about ourselves, not at all the thing we would like
 others to believe we are talking about. The very first thing we experience
 in any exchange or encounter with the outside world is not the outside
 world at all, but ourselves. We meet ourselves in everything we say and do.

 To continue with perception for a moment: I said above that Americans love
 freedom, America is the land of the free etc. All this is true. But it is
 true in only a limited sense. It is true in the sense that choices are able
 to be made without coercion or force being applied. For example, an man
 sits at a table in a restaraunt in France and is presented with a choice of
 beverages. There is wine, there is cognac, there is cider, there is
 champagne and there is Budweiser beer. The man freely chooses the beer. A
 free choice is made. But the choice is made not out of curiosity but out of
 familiarity. Is that still freedom of choice? If you are ignorant of the
 qualities of the various alternatives to your preferred choice, in what
 sense are you making a free choice? More likely you are shackled to your
 preference.

 When we do creative thinking, we learn to take familiar situations and
 traverse a different path in thinking about them. This requires training
 and is not at all a natural habit of mind.

 Kim

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Re: American Intelligence

2014-06-24 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
wrote:

 I have to say, I find it a bit silly when people identify too much with
 their nationality (or profession, or gender...) to the point that they get
 offended when a generic remark is made.

 It is fairly obvious that Kim is not suggesting that Chris or Brent or any
 other specific American in this list is a person of low intelligence. The
 generalisation per se might be without merit, but even so it's perhaps a
 good exercise in to learn to tolerate it.

 We have more in common with each other than with the average citizen of
 any of our respective countries.
 Why care so much about imaginary lines in the ground?


Because without it, opium for the masses like FIFA world cup makes less
sense, and people would start to realize and have more time to ponder that
they are getting shafted... and by whom. Also we need to get rid of those
immigrants stealing all our jobs and vote hard right. At least that's what
civilized Europe is doing increasingly. So you're saying this, but really,
you are lamenting Portugal's performance ;-) PGC



 Cheers,
 Telmo.



 On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
 wrote:

 Of course my founding post to this thread was racist. It was a clear
 attempt to label a box and to shove all Americans in there. Not very smart,
 you suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the inherent racism of
 what I said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that still racism? It's
 not that I am a racist, but I definitely felt there to be a point in saying
 something that might strike others as racist because this is a good way to
 put people on their toes. It was done for a purpose to do with creative
 thinking. That purpose is an operation known as provocation. I am
 provoking others to respond, in order to see the thinking. In fact I am not
 racist at all because I admire Americans greatly. How could one not. But I
 wrote something racist in order to see whether some others might see that
 they were being provoked. Provocation is sometimes necessary in order that
 people see things they feel they know very well in a new light. Creative
 thinking is taking existing information and extracting new value from it.

 For example, had I said the following:

 America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom
 the world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans
 are all natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive
 way better than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new
 idea in America because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it
 and help it to come to fruition, particularly if that idea helps support
 the cause of freedom and successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.

 - would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical; I
 have a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should be
 clear: what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the thinker,
 and those values are based on their 1p experiences.

 That's what perception is. Perception is first order thinking which is
 to say more a statement about ourselves, not at all the thing we would like
 others to believe we are talking about. The very first thing we experience
 in any exchange or encounter with the outside world is not the outside
 world at all, but ourselves. We meet ourselves in everything we say and do.

 To continue with perception for a moment: I said above that Americans
 love freedom, America is the land of the free etc. All this is true. But it
 is true in only a limited sense. It is true in the sense that choices are
 able to be made without coercion or force being applied. For example, an
 man sits at a table in a restaraunt in France and is presented with a
 choice of beverages. There is wine, there is cognac, there is cider, there
 is champagne and there is Budweiser beer. The man freely chooses the beer.
 A free choice is made. But the choice is made not out of curiosity but out
 of familiarity. Is that still freedom of choice? If you are ignorant of the
 qualities of the various alternatives to your preferred choice, in what
 sense are you making a free choice? More likely you are shackled to your
 preference.

 When we do creative thinking, we learn to take familiar situations and
 traverse a different path in thinking about them. This requires training
 and is not at all a natural habit of mind.

 Kim

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Re: American Intelligence

2014-06-24 Thread Telmo Menezes

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy 
multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 wrote:

 I have to say, I find it a bit silly when people identify too much with
 their nationality (or profession, or gender...) to the point that they get
 offended when a generic remark is made.

 It is fairly obvious that Kim is not suggesting that Chris or Brent or
 any other specific American in this list is a person of low intelligence.
 The generalisation per se might be without merit, but even so it's perhaps
 a good exercise in to learn to tolerate it.

 We have more in common with each other than with the average citizen of
 any of our respective countries.
 Why care so much about imaginary lines in the ground?


 Because without it, opium for the masses like FIFA world cup makes less
 sense, and people would start to realize and have more time to ponder that
 they are getting shafted... and by whom.


Yup.


 Also we need to get rid of those immigrants stealing all our jobs and vote
 hard right. At least that's what civilized Europe is doing increasingly.


I want to believe that this is a passing fad of populism festering on the
economic recession.


 So you're saying this, but really, you are lamenting Portugal's
 performance ;-) PGC


Eheh. Hey, Ronaldo had the best haircut though :)

I can't resist sharing what my favourite comedian (American, btw) has to
say about nationalism and hating immigrants:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPDT5qHtZ4

Cheers
Telmo.





 Cheers,
 Telmo.



 On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
 wrote:

 Of course my founding post to this thread was racist. It was a clear
 attempt to label a box and to shove all Americans in there. Not very smart,
 you suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the inherent racism of
 what I said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that still racism? It's
 not that I am a racist, but I definitely felt there to be a point in saying
 something that might strike others as racist because this is a good way to
 put people on their toes. It was done for a purpose to do with creative
 thinking. That purpose is an operation known as provocation. I am
 provoking others to respond, in order to see the thinking. In fact I am not
 racist at all because I admire Americans greatly. How could one not. But I
 wrote something racist in order to see whether some others might see that
 they were being provoked. Provocation is sometimes necessary in order that
 people see things they feel they know very well in a new light. Creative
 thinking is taking existing information and extracting new value from it.

 For example, had I said the following:

 America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom
 the world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans
 are all natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive
 way better than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new
 idea in America because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it
 and help it to come to fruition, particularly if that idea helps support
 the cause of freedom and successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.

 - would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical;
 I have a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should
 be clear: what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the
 thinker, and those values are based on their 1p experiences.

 That's what perception is. Perception is first order thinking which is
 to say more a statement about ourselves, not at all the thing we would like
 others to believe we are talking about. The very first thing we experience
 in any exchange or encounter with the outside world is not the outside
 world at all, but ourselves. We meet ourselves in everything we say and do.

 To continue with perception for a moment: I said above that Americans
 love freedom, America is the land of the free etc. All this is true. But it
 is true in only a limited sense. It is true in the sense that choices are
 able to be made without coercion or force being applied. For example, an
 man sits at a table in a restaraunt in France and is presented with a
 choice of beverages. There is wine, there is cognac, there is cider, there
 is champagne and there is Budweiser beer. The man freely chooses the beer.
 A free choice is made. But the choice is made not out of curiosity but out
 of familiarity. Is that still freedom of choice? If you are ignorant of the
 qualities of the various alternatives to your preferred choice, in what
 sense are you making a free choice? More likely you are shackled to your
 preference.

 When we do creative thinking, we learn to take familiar situations and
 traverse a different path in thinking about them. This requires training
 and is not at all a natural habit of mind.

 Kim

 --
 You received this message because

Re: Disproving physicalism from COMP

2014-06-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 24 June 2014 17:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','meeke...@verizon.net'); wrote:


 If primitive matter existed, and if it has a role for consciousness, or
 for consciousness instantiation, step 8, and the argument above, makes that
 role very mysterious, so much that it is not clear why we could still say
 yes to the doctor in virtue of correct digital rendering.


 You can still say yes to the doctor because he is going to use matter to
 make your brain prosthesis.


 Surely that will just be a copy that thinks it's you - it won't be you, so
 if you are destroyed in the process of making the digital copy, you really
 do die. While in comp the digital copy *is* you, by definition.


It could be that comp is false, so it is impossible to make a digital copy
of your biological brain, but a biological copy would work just fine, and
really be you.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: Pluto bounces back!


What about this Irish Times article? It seems to be out of the box thinking. I 
don't know, if true, that it has any value for the human species? But it might 
in my imagination. My imagination, plus 3.50, can get me a coffee latte. Any 
thoughts, condemnatory or laudatory. 
 
 
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/what-if-god-were-part-of-the-natural-order-1.1836816
 

-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:39 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!




On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:39, Richard Ruquist wrote:







On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
 
Dear John,




 it is wasted time and effort to argue who is right in a question that raises 
2 billion children in a 'faith' they will live by - AND such 'faith' does 
include the killing of 'infidels' (meaning: who do not share their faith to the 
last comma) and many more peculiarities which our part of the world would not 
accept anymore. There is no question about 'truth', believability, oracles and 
supernatural wisdom, there is a 1500 year old power over billions of people 
with no questions asking and willing to do whatever they believe has to be 
done. 
 



It is the same problem with christianism, but such structure has shown to be 
able to evolve a bit. Then I would differentiate muslims, literalist muslim, 
and fanatics. Only the later are dangerous. 
 


I think that Samiya is open to discussion, even if it is not clear how far she 
is to doubt the literal Quran, which of course is necessary at the start if 
only to see if it contains anything scientific (in physics, biology, ... but 
also theology).
 


This hides the real roots of fundamentalism which is that we have forbid the 
use of science (that is the skeptical spirit since well, indeed 1500 years. 





 

Regarding skepticism, the High Holy Days service of Judaism contains a prayer 
for the value of doubt. Not sure how far back the origin of that prayer is in 
time, but it certainly contributes to regard that Jews have for science. 




Interesting. In fact judaism; like taoism, and branches of buddhism encourage 
the comments to the sacred texts, and allow a sort of jurisprudence making 
possible some notion of amendment, and favorize the non literal reading of 
texts.






Google does not seem to know of its existence.




The net does not know everything, and contains a lot of propaganda of many 
kinds.


Bruno









 
Richard 






 
 

There were argumentations a millennium ago, but the sword answered. 
Wars and wars. 
We have different vocabularies and both sides understand things differently. 

 



Those are political, if not economical war, disguised in religious war.










 I do not say which part is 'better-or-worse' I am just sorry for an advanced 
worldview getting erased by a violent ancient force that overwhelms our 
civilisation. (Q: are WE civil, indeed?) 

 



An ancient force like fire can erase in few weeks what needed an incredibly 
long/deep history like a tree or a forest. 


It is in the nature of wiseness and advanced mind to be the easy prey for 
violence.
 


Are we civil? Well, officially, the US is no more since the 31 december 2011 
(NDAA 12).  But the bad seed comes from something older than Kennedy's 
assassination. 


There is a problem with radical islamism, but the real problem is in the 
exploitation of that problem by bandits to hide their lucrative criminal 
activities.
 


The war on drugs and the war on terror are de facto non stopping wars which 
constantly create and fuel its enemy. 


The value of money is based on trust which needs *fair* competition, and a 
notion of genuine use, but the society get a cancer when money is used to 
create fake money, based on lies or on problems created for that purpose.
 


Bandits might be a progress compared to dictator using god to justify its job. 
So we are not civil, but still can become.


Virgin lôbian number seem civil at the start. Uncivilness seems to be only a 
bad habit, a passage similar to some dilemmas in game theory, when you can 
make a very big win by ceasing cooperation. May be that's a devil's temptation, 
or the fall from sane egoism into psychopathic or paranoid egocentrism. 
 


Bruno




 


John M





On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
 


On 29 May 2014, at 05:33, Samiya Illias wrote:


 



On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote:



 
Ok, so let's talk some specifics.


Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic expression. Famously on 
Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and several people for drawing Mohammed. 
When I was living in Paris, the building of a small publication was bombed for 
publishing a drawing of Mohammed. 
 


The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the company of those 
who blaspheme, till they do not change to another

RE: TRONNIES - SPACE

2014-06-24 Thread John Ross

The light reflected by the shell of our Universe is the cosmic background 
radiation that has been bouncing around our Universe since the Big Bang.  Radio 
wave radiation generated in our Universe reflects from the shell of our 
Universe in about the same manner that radio waves generated on earth reflect 
from the earth’s ionosphere.

 

The muon or its predecessor should be accelerated by the earth’s gravity.  If a 
canon ball is accelerated through space at the same rate as a feather, then a 
muon should be accelerated at the same rate as a cannon ball.

 

JR 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 3:05 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

 

On 24 June 2014 09:15, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

I don’t believe there are extra dimensions in our Universe.  There may be other 
universes outside of the shell of our Universe.  Or our shell may be thick 
enough to contain additional Universes.  Our shell is mostly an equal number of 
electrons and positrons that provide a perfect reflector of the cosmic 
background radiation, like the shell of an integrating sphere.

 

So where does this radiation come from, that it reflects? 

 

The muon may be more stable when traveling fast as compared to floating 
somewhere in a lab.  Or it or its predecessor may be traveling faster than the 
speed of light.  If a muon normally travels at the speed of light.  How fast 
would it travel if, in addition to its normal speed, it is subjected to the 
pull of earth’s gravity for a substantial period of time?

 

Muons travel slower than light.
 

JR

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:50 PM


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

 

On 24 June 2014 06:08, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

I agree that clock’s operate at different rates as space vehicles and high 
speed aircraft approach the speed of light or are located at different 
gravitational levels, but that does not prove that time passes at different 
rates.

 

Why not? 

 

Would a faraway galaxy compute the time since the Big Bang as a time other than 
about 13.8 billion years?

 

Generally speaking yes, however that doesn't prove what you think it does. This 
has been discussed extensively here...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/everything-list/block$20universe/everything-list/jFX-wTm_E_Q/lzJdRBAgPocJ

 

There are other logical explanations for muon’s longer life when traveling fast 
as compared to floating around a lab. 

 

Such as?

 

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Re: Disproving physicalism from COMP

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



On 24 Jun 2014, at 15:07, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:




On Tuesday, June 24, 2014, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
On 24 June 2014 17:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

If primitive matter existed, and if it has a role for consciousness,  
or for consciousness instantiation, step 8, and the argument above,  
makes that role very mysterious, so much that it is not clear why we  
could still say yes to the doctor in virtue of correct digital  
rendering.


You can still say yes to the doctor because he is going to use  
matter to make your brain prosthesis.


Surely that will just be a copy that thinks it's you - it won't be  
you, so if you are destroyed in the process of making the digital  
copy, you really do die. While in comp the digital copy is you, by  
definition.


It could be that comp is false, so it is impossible to make a  
digital copy of your biological brain, but a biological copy would  
work just fine, and really be you.


That is correct. In that case the biology of the brain has to be non  
Turing emulable. The brain would be an analog machine of a special  
kind (as most analog machines are Turing emulable). In fact such copy  
should be a quantum continuous duplication (like in continuous  
quantum teleportation).


I agree.  Comp is for 'computation' which is a notion relying  
fundamentally on digitalness, or discreteness, or integers. Only for  
those digital machines do we have an effective notion of universality,  
through the Church-Turing thesis.


Bruno






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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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RE: TRONNIES - SPACE

2014-06-24 Thread John Ross

“So what”.   My point is you cannot prove Einstein’s relativity theories are 
correct by citing small variations in the ticking of clocks.

 

You know of at least two explanations of gravity: Einstein’s and mine.  I 
assume you have read my Chapter XX, “Black Holes and Gravity”.  My explanation 
is enormously simpler than Albert’s.

 

John R.

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 3:03 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

 

 

 

On 24 June 2014 08:55, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

All of the GPS satellites know exactly where they are relative to some position 
here on earth.  They are all in communication with each other and they know how 
fast a radio beam travels.  It would be a simple matter to regularly adjust 
their clock speeds so all of the clocks operate at the same speed as a master 
clock here on earth.  My guess is that is exactly what they do.  I doubt if it 
is possible to construct a clock that keeps time infinitely correctly.

 

So what? 

 

I think you have said before that if two theories explain the same thing, it is 
more likely than not that the simplest theory is correct.  I see no reason why 
time should pass more slowly if we go fast or quicker if we are in a reduced 
gravity.  

 

So far I only know of one (relatively simple :-) theory that explains these 
observations. 

 

Here is a question for you:  We on a distance galaxy are watching a separate 
galaxy one light-year from a Monster Black Hole and speeding toward it at a 
speed of c.  A baby has just been born in the speeding galaxy.  How old will 
the baby be when the galaxy is consumed by the Monster Black Hole?  Our galaxy 
is stationary with respect to the Monster Black Hole.  My answer is the simple 
answer. 

 

What is your answer? 

 

JR  

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:21 PM


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

 

On 18 June 2014 08:43, jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

I understand clocks in satellites do not run at the same speed as clocks
here on earth.  However, I just can't understand why we would use
Einstein's equations to adjust the clocks on satellites when it would be
so easy to adjust them in accordance to the exact time here on earth.

 

That isn't the point. For all I know they may adjust them using clocks on 
Earth. The point is that the satellites provide yet another way to test special 
and general relativity, and since scientists are always trying to check their 
theories are correct, they consider it worthwhile to work out how fast or slow 
these theories say the satellites' clocks will run and compare this to the 
measured values. The results are in accordance with both theories - working out 
the time dilation due to the satellites' relative motion and their position in 
the Earth's gravity field gives the observed result.

Note that SR and GR give this result without needing any free parameters to be 
tweaked. SR involves simple geometry applied to 4 dimensional space-time; as 
far as I know the only free parameter is the speed of light. GR involves the 
gravitational constant (I think) but I'm told there are no simple ways in which 
the equations can be modified to give similar results. Hence the clock rate is 
forced to have a particular value in both theories - the result falls out 
naturally from the theories without any need to introduce any corrections that 
could equally well have given other results.

Here http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html  is a 
more detailed description of this effect.

 

If you have a theory that can give the same result (with a similar lack of 
wriggle room for adjusting free parameters) then you should get some serious 
interest from scientists.

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Re: American Intelligence






 From: Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
 

Of course my founding post to this thread was racist.

Yes... we agree, it was.

 It was a clear attempt to label a box and to shove all Americans in there. Not 
very smart, you suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the inherent 
racism of what I said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that still racism? 
It's not that I am a racist, but I definitely felt there to be a point in 
saying something that might strike others as racist because this is a good way 
to put people on their toes. It was done for a purpose to do with creative 
thinking. That purpose is an operation known as provocation. I am provoking 
others to respond, in order to see the thinking. In fact I am not racist at all 
because I admire Americans greatly. How could one not. But I wrote something 
racist in order to see whether some others might see that they were being 
provoked. Provocation is sometimes necessary in order that people see things 
they feel they know very well in a new light. Creative thinking is taking 
existing information and extracting new value
 from it.

For example, had I said the following:

America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom the 
world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans are 
all natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive way 
better than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new idea in 
America because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it and help it 
to come to fruition, particularly if that idea helps support the cause of 
freedom and successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.

If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world view 
exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox News corp 

- would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical; I 
have a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should be 
clear: what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the thinker, 
and those values are based on their 1p experiences. 

You would be guilty of reducing the complex tapestry of reality into the 
false order of prejudicial stereotyped mental superstructures that replace 
critical thinking with un-examined notions and pre-supplied  answers.

That's what perception is. Perception is first order thinking which is to 
say more a statement about ourselves, not at all the thing we would like 
others to believe we are talking about. The very first thing we experience in 
any exchange or encounter with the outside world is not the outside world 
at all, but ourselves. We meet ourselves in everything we say and do. 

Perception is the stream our senses impinge upon the inner reality of our 
massively parallel wetware. What we make of this stream of perception depends 
on whether we actually analyze it -- i.e. spend the time to think about it and 
ponder the complexity inherent in it... or whether on the other hand we supply 
a pre-made answer that boxes the stream into a pre-labeled phenomena... and 
in so doing reducing the true experience to a reified symbolic ready made stand 
in for the real thing.
While this is a useful trick -- and definitely has evolutionary advantages 
(don't waste a second pondering about the meaning of that moving grass -- act  
like it IS a saber tooth tiger... immediately) -- it also leads down the very 
blind alley of prejudicial mental constructs replacing actual thinking.

To continue with perception for a moment: I said above that Americans love 
freedom, America is the land of the free etc. All this is true. 

Says who? Not I for sure I live here and know better.

But it is true in only a limited sense. It is true in the sense that choices 
are able to be made without coercion or force being applied. For example, an 
man sits at a table in a restaraunt in France and is presented with a choice 
of beverages. There is wine, there is cognac, there is cider, there is 
champagne and there is Budweiser beer. The man freely chooses the beer. A 
free choice is made. But the choice is made not out of curiosity but out of 
familiarity. Is that still freedom of choice? If you are ignorant of the 
qualities of the various alternatives to your preferred choice, in what sense 
are you making a free choice? More likely you are shackled to your preference.

Who, among us is truly free? We are all of us creatures of habit on many 
levels... and that is fine as long as we also recognize this. Prejudicial 
mental processes short-circuit the actual working out of a situation; replacing 
true mental activity with ready made pre-determined answers. I see this kind of 
mental laziness as being at the root of most of our worlds problems and as the 
prime driver of our stupidity.

When we do creative thinking, we learn to take familiar situations and traverse 
a different path in thinking about them. This

Re: American Intelligence

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List






 From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 


I have to say, I find it a bit silly when people identify too much with their 
nationality (or profession, or gender...) to the point that they get offended 
when a generic remark is made.

Perhaps we disagree here, but I find the stereotyping of any group as being on 
the slippery slope down into the offensive. It is okay to some extent, in humor 
and jest perhaps, and in light fun, but when it invokes negative imagery and 
stamps this stereotyped form onto a large mass of individuals -- each with 
their own stories and experiences -- it is not only an act that becomes 
offensive; it is an act that is unwise.


It is fairly obvious that Kim is not suggesting that Chris or Brent or any 
other specific American in this list is a person of low intelligence. The 
generalisation per se might be without merit, but even so it's perhaps a good 
exercise in to learn to tolerate it.

SO -- then how about racial stereotypes.. should black people learn to tolerate 
racial prejudicial stereotypes... that may be without merit and are not 
precisely directed at the black man or woman who is reading the off color joke 
or stereotype? 

Isn't it better to recognize that stereotyping is an act of prejudicial mental 
laziness that replaces actual thinking with un-examined pre-supplied notions.


We have more in common with each other than with the average citizen of any of 
our respective countries.
Why care so much about imaginary lines in the ground?

I agree -- and I certainly don't care about nationalism, seeing it as just 
another way of imprisoning people into vast herds. 

I do however have a beef against prejudicial statements -- at whomever they are 
directed. In fact -- if you see some of my past posts I have gotten into it 
with some on thislist who entertain prejudicial attitudes towards the two 
billion or so people whom they see as being in some kind of monolithic Muslim 
caliphate or something clash of civilizations meme of that nature. Prejudice is 
hurtful, unwise and essentially ugly. There is really no good excuse for it -- 
and we are all guilty of it, myself included. I do try to work to detect when 
it goes operational within my mind though and attempt to replace it with actual 
thought processes.

Cheers,
Chris

Cheers,
Telmo.






On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote:

Of course my founding post to this thread was racist. It was a clear attempt 
to label a box and to shove all Americans in there. Not very smart, you 
suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the inherent racism of what I 
said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that still racism? It's not that I am 
a racist, but I definitely felt there to be a point in saying something that 
might strike others as racist because this is a good way to put people on their 
toes. It was done for a purpose to do with creative thinking. That purpose is 
an operation known as provocation. I am provoking others to respond, in order 
to see the thinking. In fact I am not racist at all because I admire Americans 
greatly. How could one not. But I wrote something racist in order to see 
whether some others might see that they were being provoked. Provocation is 
sometimes necessary in order that people see things they feel they know very 
well in a new light. Creative thinking is
 taking existing information and extracting new value from it.

For example, had I said the following:

America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom the 
world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans are all 
natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive way better 
than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new idea in America 
because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it and help it to come 
to fruition, particularly if that idea helps support the cause of freedom and 
successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.

- would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical; I have 
a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should be clear: 
what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the thinker, and those 
values are based on their 1p experiences.

That's what perception is. Perception is first order thinking which is to 
say more a statement about ourselves, not at all the thing we would like 
others to believe we are talking about. The very first thing we experience in 
any exchange or encounter with the outside world is not the outside world at 
all, but ourselves. We meet ourselves in everything we say and do.

To continue with perception for a moment: I said above that Americans love 
freedom, America is the land of the free etc. All this is true. But it is true 
in only a limited sense. It is true in the sense that choices are able to be 
made without coercion or force being applied. For example, an man

Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

So what is this photon reflector shell made from? Why wouldn't it absorb rather 
than reflect. 

-Original Message-
From: John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 12:47 pm
Subject: RE: TRONNIES - SPACE

The light reflected by the shell of our Universe is the cosmic background 
radiation that has been bouncing around our Universe since the Big Bang.  Radio 
wave radiation generated in our Universe reflects from the shell of our 
Universe in about the same manner that radio waves generated on earth reflect 
from the earth’s ionosphere.

The muon or its predecessor should be accelerated by the earth’s gravity.  If a 
canon ball is accelerated through space at the same rate as a feather, then a 
muon should be accelerated at the same rate as a cannon ball.

JR 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 3:05 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

On 24 June 2014 09:15, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

I don’t believe there are extra dimensions in our Universe.  There may be other 
universes outside of the shell of our Universe.  Or our shell may be thick 
enough to contain additional Universes.  Our shell is mostly an equal number of 
electrons and positrons that provide a perfect reflector of the cosmic 
background radiation, like the shell of an integrating sphere.

So where does this radiation come from, that it reflects? 

The muon may be more stable when traveling fast as compared to floating 
somewhere in a lab.  Or it or its predecessor may be traveling faster than the 
speed of light.  If a muon normally travels at the speed of light.  How fast 
would it travel if, in addition to its normal speed, it is subjected to the 
pull of earth’s gravity for a substantial period of time?

Muons travel slower than light.

JR

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:50 PM

To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

On 24 June 2014 06:08, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

I agree that clock’s operate at different rates as space vehicles and high 
speed aircraft approach the speed of light or are located at different 
gravitational levels, but that does not prove that time passes at different 
rates.

Why not? 

Would a faraway galaxy compute the time since the Big Bang as a time other than 
about 13.8 billion years?

Generally speaking yes, however that doesn't prove what you think it does. This 
has been discussed extensively here...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/everything-list/block$20universe/everything-list/jFX-wTm_E_Q/lzJdRBAgPocJ

There are other logical explanations for muon’s longer life when traveling fast 
as compared to floating around a lab. 

Such as?

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To post to this

Re: American Intelligence

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world view 
exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox News corp 
 
You ignore the news media owned and operated by liberals have never criticized 
the American president and are members of the president's party, and share his 
goals. Bush was never treated in this way. Why? But everyone knows why, because 
they are on the same team. Our president, since I am yank, is president of the 
so-called Democratic Party alone, and not all of America, which he and his 
party obviously hate. And I do mean hate. 

Secondly, Rupert Murdoch, head of Newscorp, is having a meeting with chief 
presidential advisor, Valerie Jarrett, over the topic of pushing through 
nationalizing illegals, and bringing in Tech workers who work cheap for the 
biggie corporations. The corporations benefit by low paid labor, both in tech, 
and in the factories and farms. The Dem party gets illegals in, to naturalize 
them, and thus, get votes; as home born yanks slowly get wise to how BHO and 
his party want the middle class destroyed. If they get Americans to vote for 
the dems, they'll just import foreigners, with no love of this country, who 
will. 

This will likely bring some sort of conflict, I am guessing. However, a 
destabilized, US, might be to your liking, emotionally, so as to fit your 
personal world view? In any case you can test out your national friendships 
with China, Russia, Iran, and maybe, ISIS? (That's a great name for a group-Ian 
Fleming couldn't have done better!). 


If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world view 
exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox News corp 


 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 1:36 pm
Subject: Re: American Intelligence







  
 
 
 
   From: Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
  
 

Of course my founding post to this thread was racist.


Yes... we agree, it was.


 It was a clear attempt to label a box and to shove all Americans in there. Not 
very smart, you suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the inherent 
racism of what I said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that still racism? 
It's not that I am a racist, but I definitely felt there to be a point in 
saying something that might strike others as racist because this is a good way 
to put people on their toes. It was done for a purpose to do with creative 
thinking. That purpose is an operation known as provocation. I am provoking 
others to respond, in order to see the thinking. In fact I am not racist at all 
because I admire Americans greatly. How could one not. But I wrote something 
racist in order to see whether some others might see that they were being 
provoked. Provocation is sometimes necessary in order that people see things 
they feel they know very well in a new light. Creative thinking is taking 
existing information and extracting new value from it.

For example, had I said the following:

America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom the 
world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans are 
all natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive way 
better than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new idea in 
America because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it and help it 
to come to fruition, particularly if that idea helps support the cause of 
freedom and successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.


If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world view 
exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox News corp 

- would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical; I 
have a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should be 
clear: what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the thinker, 
and those values are based on their 1p experiences. 


You would be guilty of reducing the complex tapestry of reality into the 
false order of prejudicial stereotyped mental superstructures that replace 
critical thinking with un-examined notions and pre-supplied  answers.

That's what perception is. Perception is first order thinking which is to 
say more a statement about ourselves, not at all the thing we would like 
others to believe we are talking about. The very first thing we experience in 
any exchange or encounter with the outside world is not the outside world 
at all, but ourselves. We meet ourselves in everything we say and do. 


Perception is the stream our senses impinge upon the inner reality of our 
massively parallel wetware. What we make of this stream of perception depends 
on whether we actually analyze it -- i.e. spend the time to think about it and 
ponder the complexity inherent in it... or whether on the other

Re: American Intelligence

2014-06-24 Thread Richard Ruquist

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 *If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world
 view exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox
 News corp*

 You ignore the news media owned and operated by liberals have *never*
 criticized the American president and are *members* of the president's
 party, and share his *goals*. Bush was never treated in this way. Why?
 But everyone *knows* why, because they are on the same team. Our
 president, since I am yank, is president of the so-called Democratic Party
 alone, and not all of America, which he and his party obviously hate. And I
 do mean hate.


Thank you for giving me the opportunity to calibrate the kind of boy that
you are.
Richard


 Secondly, Rupert Murdoch, head of *Newscorp*, is having a meeting with
 chief presidential advisor, Valerie Jarrett, over the topic of pushing
 through nationalizing illegals, and bringing in Tech workers who work cheap
 for the *biggie corporations*. The corporations benefit by low paid
 labor, both in tech, and in the factories and farms. The Dem party gets
 illegals in, to *naturalize *them, and thus, get votes; as home born
 yanks slowly get wise to how BHO and his party want the middle class
 destroyed. If they get Americans to vote for the dems, they'll just import
 foreigners, with no love of this country, who will.

 This will likely bring some sort of conflict, I am guessing. However, a
 destabilized, US, might be to your liking, emotionally, so as to fit your
 personal world view? In any case you can test out your national friendships
 with China, Russia, Iran, and maybe, ISIS? (That's a great name for a
 group-Ian Fleming couldn't have done better!).

 If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world view
 exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox News
 corp




 -Original Message-
 From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 1:36 pm
 Subject: Re: American Intelligence



   --
  *From:* Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au

 Of course my founding post to this thread was racist.

  Yes... we agree, it was.

   It was a clear attempt to label a box and to shove all Americans in
 there. Not very smart, you suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the
 inherent racism of what I said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that
 still racism? It's not that I am a racist, but I definitely felt there to
 be a point in saying something that might strike others as racist because
 this is a good way to put people on their toes. It was done for a purpose
 to do with creative thinking. That purpose is an operation known as
 provocation. I am provoking others to respond, in order to see the
 thinking. In fact I am not racist at all because I admire Americans
 greatly. How could one not. But I wrote something racist in order to see
 whether some others might see that they were being provoked. Provocation is
 sometimes necessary in order that people see things they feel they know
 very well in a new light. Creative thinking is taking existing information
 and extracting new value from it.

 For example, had I said the following:

 America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom
 the world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans
 are all natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive
 way better than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new
 idea in America because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it
 and help it to come to fruition, particularly if that idea helps support
 the cause of freedom and successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.

  If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world
 view exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox
 News corp

 - would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical;
 I have a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should
 be clear: what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the
 thinker, and those values are based on their 1p experiences.

  You would be guilty of reducing the complex tapestry of reality into the
 false order of prejudicial stereotyped mental superstructures that
 replace critical thinking with un-examined notions and pre-supplied
  answers.

 That's what perception is. Perception is first order thinking which is
 to say more a statement about ourselves, not at all the thing we would like
 others to believe we are talking about. The very first thing we experience
 in any exchange or encounter with the outside world is not the outside
 world at all, but ourselves. We meet ourselves in everything we say and do.

  Perception is the stream our senses impinge upon the

Re: American Intelligence






 From: spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com

This will likely bring some sort of conflict, I am guessing. However, a 
destabilized, US, might be to your liking, emotionally, so as to fit your 
personal world view? In any case you can test out your national friendships 
with China, Russia, Iran, and maybe, ISIS? (That's a great name for a 
group-Ian Fleming couldn't have done better!).

Where have I ever said that a destabilized America is to my liking? Never said 
anything remotely suggesting that. Does spudboi mean xenophobic potato head 
perchance?


Hopefully others will realize that Americans are not all like you spudboi, for 
you -- and your ilk - are the inspiration for a lot of the negative stereotypes 
people have formed about America.
Enjoy life a little potato head; stop being so tiresomely predictable.
Chris

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Re: American Intelligence

I assumed Kim's original post was intended partly ironically. Clearly there
are a lot of intelligent Americans, but there does seem to be a bit of a
dumbed down culture there at times.

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Re: American Intelligence


No problem, Richard. I voted for Al Gore in 2000 because he talked about 
hydrogen cars, and the other dude was an oil boy, so it was a cinch for me. By 
2004 I had changed my vote and allegiance's for some reason. Golly, I wonder 
what made the change in world view? My health is not bad, so it was nothing 
physiological. Maybe whatever happened demonstrated who you can trust, and who 
doesn't really care if this nation state dies? Na!

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to calibrate the kind of boy that you 
are.
Richard 

 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: American Intelligence







On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world view 
exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox News corp 
 
You ignore the news media owned and operated by liberals have never criticized 
the American president and are members of the president's party, and share his 
goals. Bush was never treated in this way. Why? But everyone knows why, because 
they are on the same team. Our president, since I am yank, is president of the 
so-called Democratic Party alone, and not all of America, which he and his 
party obviously hate. And I do mean hate.



Thank you for giving me the opportunity to calibrate the kind of boy that you 
are.
Richard 

 
 
Secondly, Rupert Murdoch, head of Newscorp, is having a meeting with chief 
presidential advisor, Valerie Jarrett, over the topic of pushing through 
nationalizing illegals, and bringing in Tech workers who work cheap for the 
biggie corporations. The corporations benefit by low paid labor, both in tech, 
and in the factories and farms. The Dem party gets illegals in, to naturalize 
them, and thus, get votes; as home born yanks slowly get wise to how BHO and 
his party want the middle class destroyed. If they get Americans to vote for 
the dems, they'll just import foreigners, with no love of this country, who 
will. 
 
This will likely bring some sort of conflict, I am guessing. However, a 
destabilized, US, might be to your liking, emotionally, so as to fit your 
personal world view? In any case you can test out your national friendships 
with China, Russia, Iran, and maybe, ISIS? (That's a great name for a group-Ian 
Fleming couldn't have done better!). 


If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world view 
exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox News corp 


 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 1:36 pm
Subject: Re: American Intelligence







  
 
 
 
   From: Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
  
 

Of course my founding post to this thread was racist.


Yes... we agree, it was.


 It was a clear attempt to label a box and to shove all Americans in there. Not 
very smart, you suppose. Not if I myself were unconscious of the inherent 
racism of what I said. But I was fully conscious of it. Is that still racism? 
It's not that I am a racist, but I definitely felt there to be a point in 
saying something that might strike others as racist because this is a good way 
to put people on their toes. It was done for a purpose to do with creative 
thinking. That purpose is an operation known as provocation. I am provoking 
others to respond, in order to see the thinking. In fact I am not racist at all 
because I admire Americans greatly. How could one not. But I wrote something 
racist in order to see whether some others might see that they were being 
provoked. Provocation is sometimes necessary in order that people see things 
they feel they know very well in a new light. Creative thinking is taking 
existing information and extracting new value from it.

For example, had I said the following:

America is the land of the free. America champions the cause of freedom the 
world over and will fight fiercely to maintain a free world. Americans are 
all natural-born entrepreneurs and understand business in an intuitive way 
better than anyone else on the planet. Anyone can succeed with a new idea in 
America because Americans love a new idea and will get behind it and help it 
to come to fruition, particularly if that idea helps support the cause of 
freedom and successful entrepreneurial business enterprises.


If you had said that I would think that you were informing your world view 
exclusively from the diet of flag wrapped drivel served up by the Fox News corp 

- would I still be guilty of racism? The mental operation is identical; I 
have a box and I am shoving an entire country into it. The point should be 
clear: what motivates all thinking are the values espoused by the thinker, 
and

Re: American Intelligence


To most liberals/progressive/Marxists is a wet dream, a fantasy come true for 
them. The boi thing is nice and I wish I thought of it. People are not 
xenophobic, if they actually have world, idiots actively seeing you go bye bye, 
Since the baddies have won the last US election, its their world now. However, 
I still suspect an X crossing Y point in the US, not went the 53% get angry, 
but when the 47% feels they have had enough. As far as who to like and hate in 
the world, there's nothing stopping any nationalist from working together on 
important trade, and technical pursuits. Race is no big deal as we are all 
related, seemingly, but, now, cultures are a wy, different thing, because 
it conveys who one identifies with, and what one values. That's where things 
are more nuanced. But even here, if the rewards are great enough, we can have 
enough incentive, for people to work together. But not if they're out to cut 
one's throat. 

Where have I ever said that a destabilized America is to my liking? Never said 
anything remotely suggesting that. Does spudboi mean xenophobic potato head 
perchance?

 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:37 pm
Subject: Re: American Intelligence







  
 
 
 
   From: spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com



This will likely bring some sort of conflict, I am guessing. However, a 
destabilized, US, might be to your liking, emotionally, so as to fit your 
personal world view? In any case you can test out your national friendships 
with China, Russia, Iran, and maybe, ISIS? (That's a great name for a 
group-Ian Fleming couldn't have done better!).


Where have I ever said that a destabilized America is to my liking? Never said 
anything remotely suggesting that. Does spudboi mean xenophobic potato head 
perchance?



Hopefully others will realize that Americans are not all like you spudboi, for 
you -- and your ilk - are the inspiration for a lot of the negative stereotypes 
people have formed about America.
Enjoy life a little potato head; stop being so tiresomely predictable.
Chris








 
 
  

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Mich: as long as the Faithful think of God in their (natural) mind the God
they think of IS natural. We cannot think of a supernatural with our
natural
mentality and limitations. Anything WE think about God is within the
(our!) natural order. Limited into our model of knowables.
We can TALK about supernatural - it is TALK (Blah Blah). Contentless.

Whoever 'created' - H E L L - was planning on uncontrollable sinners to
populate it. If it has been created for humans, our kind is imperfect and
uncontrollable and the 'final' judgement must be non-forgiving to put them
into Hell. Or is it a contract with Satan?
JM

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:34 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

What about this Irish Times article? It seems to be out of the box
thinking. I don't know, if true, that it has any value for the human
species? But it might in my imagination. My imagination, plus 3.50, can get
me a coffee latte. Any thoughts, condemnatory or laudatory.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/what-if-god-were-part-of-the-natural-order-1.1836816

-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:39 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!

On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:39, Richard Ruquist wrote:

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

Dear John,

it is wasted time and effort to argue who is right in a question
that raises 2 billion children in a 'faith' they will live by - AND such
'faith' does include the killing of 'infidels' (meaning: who do not share
their faith to the last comma) and many more peculiarities which our part
of the world would not accept anymore. There is no question about 'truth',
believability, oracles and supernatural wisdom, there is a 1500 year old
power over billions of people with no questions asking and willing to do
whatever they believe has to be done.

It is the same problem with christianism, but such structure has shown
to be able to evolve a bit. Then I would differentiate muslims, literalist
muslim, and fanatics. Only the later are dangerous.

I think that Samiya is open to discussion, even if it is not clear how
far she is to doubt the literal Quran, which of course is necessary at the
start if only to see if it contains anything scientific (in physics,
biology, ... but also theology).

This hides the real roots of fundamentalism which is that we have
forbid the use of science (that is the skeptical spirit since well, indeed
1500 years.

Regarding skepticism, the High Holy Days service of Judaism contains
a prayer for the value of doubt. Not sure how far back the origin of that
prayer is in time, but it certainly contributes to regard that Jews have
for science.

Interesting. In fact judaism; like taoism, and branches of buddhism
encourage the comments to the sacred texts, and allow a sort of
jurisprudence making possible some notion of amendment, and favorize the
non literal reading of texts.

Google does not seem to know of its existence.

The net does not know everything, and contains a lot of propaganda of
many kinds.

Bruno

Richard

There were argumentations a millennium ago, but the sword answered.
Wars and wars.
We have different vocabularies and both sides understand things
differently.

Those are political, if not economical war, disguised in religious war.

I do not say which part is 'better-or-worse' I am just sorry for an
advanced worldview getting erased by a violent ancient force that
overwhelms our civilisation. (Q: are WE civil, indeed?)

An ancient force like fire can erase in few weeks what needed an
incredibly long/deep history like a tree or a forest.

It is in the nature of wiseness and advanced mind to be the easy prey
for violence.

Are we civil? Well, officially, the US is no more since the 31 december
2011 (NDAA 12). But the bad seed comes from something older than Kennedy's
assassination.

There is a problem with radical islamism, but the real problem is in
the exploitation of that problem by bandits to hide their lucrative
criminal activities.

The war on drugs and the war on terror are de facto non stopping wars
which constantly create and fuel its enemy.

The value of money is based on trust which needs *fair* competition,
and a notion of genuine use, but the society get a cancer when money is
used to create fake money, based on lies or on problems created for that
purpose.

Bandits might be a progress compared to dictator using god to justify
its job. So we are not civil, but still can become.

Virgin lôbian number seem civil at the start. Uncivilness seems to be
only a bad habit, a passage similar to some dilemmas in game theory, when
you can make a very big win by ceasing cooperation. May be that's a devil's
temptation, or the fall from sane egoism into psychopathic

Re: American Intelligence


From one of my favorite films of all time. Idiocracy. It's on topic. 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBvIweCIgwk
 
 
-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:58 pm
Subject: Re: American Intelligence


I assumed Kim's original post was intended partly ironically. Clearly there are 
a lot of intelligent Americans, but there does seem to be a bit of a dumbed 
down culture there at times.

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Re: Solar power's bright future [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]

2014-06-24 Thread John Mikes

Russell:
you wrote:


*Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and UV*
*portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is
further absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively.*

Is ALL you do mean the SOLAR (!) spectrum we can detect with our
instruments?
Are you sure there is nothing else? Liz mentioned EM spectrum *total*. What
is included in it beyond the above (as part of our unknowables)?
John M


On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au
wrote:

 On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:19:24PM +1200, LizR wrote:
  Is it possible that plants are actually efficient in other parts of the
  spectrum that we can't see? Maybe they utilise a lot of infra red and
  ultraviolet, and the fact that there is a missed opportunity in visible
  green is a relatively insignificant blip?
 
  After all we only see less than one light octave. There's a LOT of EM
  radiation out there we can't detect.
 
  Or am I barking up the wrong tree? :-)
 

 Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and UV
 portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is
 further
 absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively.

 --


 
 Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
 Principal, High Performance Coders
 Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
 University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

  Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret
  (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html)

 

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Re: Pluto bounces back!


Yeah, I get the thing about religion and all that. This is a bit different 
since it speaks to inception (a decent movie) of the Hubble volume, and why 
things seem just so. I also like Everett's MWI. Maybe Hell was out-sourced to 
Bulgaria? I am guessing that God might be really good to talk with, if we can 
ever locate him/her, (sans prayer), because where'd he come up with the ideas, 
and how did It manage to do this? 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: John Mikes jami...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 4:23 pm
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!


Mich: as long as the Faithful think of God in their (natural) mind the God they 
think of IS natural. We cannot think of a supernatural with our natural 
 mentality and limitations. Anything   WE  think about God is within the 
(our!) natural order. Limited into our model of knowables. 
We can TALK about supernatural - it is TALK (Blah Blah). Contentless.


Whoever 'created'  -  H E L L  -  was planning on uncontrollable sinners to 
populate it. If it has been created for humans, our kind is imperfect and 
uncontrollable and the 'final' judgement must be non-forgiving to put them into 
Hell. Or is it a contract with Satan? 
JM




On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:34 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

What about this Irish Times article? It seems to be out of the box thinking. I 
don't know, if true, that it has any value for the human species? But it might 
in my imagination. My imagination, plus 3.50, can get me a coffee latte. Any 
thoughts, condemnatory or laudatory. 
 
 
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/what-if-god-were-part-of-the-natural-order-1.1836816
 
 

-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:39 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!






On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:39, Richard Ruquist wrote:







On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
 
Dear John,




 it is wasted time and effort to argue who is right in a question that raises 
2 billion children in a 'faith' they will live by - AND such 'faith' does 
include the killing of 'infidels' (meaning: who do not share their faith to the 
last comma) and many more peculiarities which our part of the world would not 
accept anymore. There is no question about 'truth', believability, oracles and 
supernatural wisdom, there is a 1500 year old power over billions of people 
with no questions asking and willing to do whatever they believe has to be 
done. 
 



It is the same problem with christianism, but such structure has shown to be 
able to evolve a bit. Then I would differentiate muslims, literalist muslim, 
and fanatics. Only the later are dangerous. 
 


I think that Samiya is open to discussion, even if it is not clear how far she 
is to doubt the literal Quran, which of course is necessary at the start if 
only to see if it contains anything scientific (in physics, biology, ... but 
also theology).
 


This hides the real roots of fundamentalism which is that we have forbid the 
use of science (that is the skeptical spirit since well, indeed 1500 years. 





 

Regarding skepticism, the High Holy Days service of Judaism contains a prayer 
for the value of doubt. Not sure how far back the origin of that prayer is in 
time, but it certainly contributes to regard that Jews have for science. 




Interesting. In fact judaism; like taoism, and branches of buddhism encourage 
the comments to the sacred texts, and allow a sort of jurisprudence making 
possible some notion of amendment, and favorize the non literal reading of 
texts.






Google does not seem to know of its existence.




The net does not know everything, and contains a lot of propaganda of many 
kinds.


Bruno









 
Richard 






 
 

There were argumentations a millennium ago, but the sword answered. 
Wars and wars. 
We have different vocabularies and both sides understand things differently. 

 



Those are political, if not economical war, disguised in religious war.










 I do not say which part is 'better-or-worse' I am just sorry for an advanced 
worldview getting erased by a violent ancient force that overwhelms our 
civilisation. (Q: are WE civil, indeed?) 

 



An ancient force like fire can erase in few weeks what needed an incredibly 
long/deep history like a tree or a forest. 


It is in the nature of wiseness and advanced mind to be the easy prey for 
violence.
 


Are we civil? Well, officially, the US is no more since the 31 december 2011 
(NDAA 12).  But the bad seed comes from something older than Kennedy's 
assassination. 


There is a problem with radical islamism, but the real problem is in the 
exploitation of that problem by bandits to hide their lucrative criminal 
activities.
 


The war on drugs and the war on terror are de facto non stopping wars which 
constantly create

Re: Quantum Logic as Classical Logic

2014-06-24 Thread John Mikes

Bruno Hi-Ho for your doctors to doctors. I have a pacemaker inserted by a
physician who is a physicist - or by a physicist who is a physician?
I try to find out behind your English gaffes what you wanted to write. Easy
for me: English is my 5th from 7 and have pitty for the bilinguists.
John M


On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 23 Jun 2014, at 03:59, LizR wrote:

 On 23 June 2014 04:51, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

 I apply math on the mathematician (the dreamer) like Everett applied
 physics on the physicians.


 I suspect you meant to say physicists. Physicians are doctors :-)



 Gosh. I stopped doing that one since long, but when my usual modern brain
 routines are tired, I guess the older subroutines came at the rescue.

 Also I apology for my I have explain which should always be read as a
 shorthand of I have explained.

 It is just that my poor brain is too slow, compared to my hands.

 Now, you raise (without intent) the interesting self-referential question
 should the doctor say yes to the doctor?

 Do you really believe that comp or quantum physics could be applied to
 physicists, and not to physicians?

 Well that should be testable. Let us study the collision of a physicist
 and a physician, and see what sort of tronnies we could get from there :)

 Bruno





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 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: American Intelligence


 On 25 Jun 2014, at 5:58 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I assumed Kim's original post was intended partly ironically. Clearly there 
 are a lot of intelligent Americans, but there does seem to be a bit of a 
 dumbed down culture there at times.

My original post was only apparently about Americans and their negative 
qualities. That was just some content by which to,articulate the main purpose 
of the thread: a demonstration of provocation which is a known thinking 
skill. 

You can be as racist as you want, just as long as the observations made are 
positive ones, which nobody feels hurt, rather flattered by; particularly if 
they happen to be American. I am showing the diference between real thinking, 
which is a emtal operation performed independently of one's personal values, 
and perception which is where we articulate our values and hence talk largely 
about ourselves and not the subject.

You have all been misled by the content of the post, and not the process 
embodied by the thinking, which is precisely what I expected would happen. 
Thank you for turning a discussion into an argumemt complete with the usual ad 
hominems and slanderous attacks. This is what happens when people place their 
values in front of their thinking. This is what is known as argument; it is 
the basis of most Western thinking and we are infected by it like a heliobactor 
pylori bacterium that never goes away.

To learn to think properly, there is a need to forget entirely about the 
importance of one's values and to concentrate on learning the PROCESS of 
thinking. Real thinking can make use of any content at all. All that is 
necessary is something to think about. The default tendency is for people to 
polarise their opinions into,a for and an against which is the nadir of 
true thinking. In true thinking there are a myriad points bewtween yes and 
no and discovering them is what I call creative thinking. You might have a 
bunch of data that supports your stance about something, but by using a process 
of creative thinking you might arrive at a different interpretation of that 
data.

Ths is what Bruno does and why he qualifies to my mind as a highly gifted 
creative thinker. He takes the existing ideas and runs a new filter over them 
and comes up with a new way of seeing them.

It is true that we are all born creative and that this is the default state of 
mind of the young child and that everything that happens from there on 
educates us to be uncreative. The child is Löbian or self-referentially 
correct. Adults rarely are.

Kim

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RE: TRONNIES - SPACE

2014-06-24 Thread John Ross

The shell is mostly an approximately equal number of very cold electrons and 
positrons, all traveling randomly at 2.19 X 106 m/s.  They are going too fast 
to combine as positronium. 

 

J Ross

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:34 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

 

So what is this photon reflector shell made from? Why wouldn't it absorb rather 
than reflect. 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 12:47 pm
Subject: RE: TRONNIES - SPACE

The light reflected by the shell of our Universe is the cosmic background 
radiation that has been bouncing around our Universe since the Big Bang.  Radio 
wave radiation generated in our Universe reflects from the shell of our 
Universe in about the same manner that radio waves generated on earth reflect 
from the earth’s ionosphere.

 

The muon or its predecessor should be accelerated by the earth’s gravity.  If a 
canon ball is accelerated through space at the same rate as a feather, then a 
muon should be accelerated at the same rate as a cannon ball.

 

JR 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 3:05 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

 

On 24 June 2014 09:15, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

I don’t believe there are extra dimensions in our Universe.  There may be other 
universes outside of the shell of our Universe.  Or our shell may be thick 
enough to contain additional Universes.  Our shell is mostly an equal number of 
electrons and positrons that provide a perfect reflector of the cosmic 
background radiation, like the shell of an integrating sphere.

 

So where does this radiation come from, that it reflects? 

 

The muon may be more stable when traveling fast as compared to floating 
somewhere in a lab.  Or it or its predecessor may be traveling faster than the 
speed of light.  If a muon normally travels at the speed of light.  How fast 
would it travel if, in addition to its normal speed, it is subjected to the 
pull of earth’s gravity for a substantial period of time?

 

Muons travel slower than light.
 

JR

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:50 PM


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

 

On 24 June 2014 06:08, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

I agree that clock’s operate at different rates as space vehicles and high 
speed aircraft approach the speed of light or are located at different 
gravitational levels, but that does not prove that time passes at different 
rates.

 

Why not? 

 

Would a faraway galaxy compute the time since the Big Bang as a time other than 
about 13.8 billion years?

 

Generally speaking yes, however that doesn't prove what you think it does. This 
has been discussed extensively here...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/everything-list/block$20universe/everything-list/jFX-wTm_E_Q/lzJdRBAgPocJ

 

There are other logical explanations for muon’s longer life when traveling fast 
as compared to floating around a lab. 

 

Such as?

 

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Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

On 25 June 2014 04:48, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

 The light reflected by the shell of our Universe is the cosmic background
 radiation that has been bouncing around our Universe since the Big Bang.
 Radio wave radiation generated in our Universe reflects from the shell of
 our Universe in about the same manner that radio waves generated on earth
 reflect from the earth’s ionosphere.


So is this shell expanding? Assuming that we are at an arbitrary point in
the universe and not at its exact centre, why don't we observe the shell to
be closed in one direction than another?



 The muon or its predecessor should be accelerated by the earth’s gravity.
 If a canon ball is accelerated through space at the same rate as a feather,
 then a muon should be accelerated at the same rate as a cannon ball.



Correct, but I don't see the relevance.

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Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

On 25 June 2014 05:07, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

 “So what”.   My point is you cannot prove Einstein’s relativity theories
 are correct by citing small variations in the ticking of clocks.


You can't prove any theory is correct by any observation, you can only
disprove theories. In this case the point is that the variations in clock
rates are consistent with the theory that time dilation occurs (some of the
variations are huge, in the case of particles in accelerators).



 You know of at least two explanations of gravity: Einstein’s and mine.  I
 assume you have read my Chapter XX, “Black Holes and Gravity”.  My
 explanation is enormously simpler than Albert’s.


 It isn't a theory, only a hunch, until you provide equations and show
their derivation.

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Re: TRONNIES - SPACE

On 25 June 2014 09:22, John Ross jr...@trexenterprises.com wrote:

 The shell is mostly an approximately equal number of very cold electrons
 and positrons, all traveling randomly at 2.19 X 106 m/s.  They are going
 too fast to combine as positronium.


Why is a particle moving too fast to combine into positronium - at about
1% of lightspeed - described as very cold ? Temperature is an emergent
property of the average kinetic energy of particles!

And why don't these particles collide and annihilate , which would give
rise to a background radiation of the specific wavelength equivalent to the
masses involved (corrected for doppler shift if the shell is receeding) ?

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RE: TRONNIES - SPACE

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



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Re: American Intelligence






 From: spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
 


To most liberals/progressive/Marxists is a wet dream, a fantasy come true for 
them. The boi thing is nice and I wish I thought of it. People are not 
xenophobic, if they actually have world, idiots actively seeing you go bye bye, 
Since the baddies have won the last US election, its their world now. However, 
I still suspect an X crossing Y point in the US, not went the 53% get angry, 
but when the 47% feels they have had enough. As far as who to like and hate in 
the world, there's nothing stopping any nationalist from working together on 
important trade, and technical pursuits. Race is no big deal as we are all 
related, seemingly, but, now, cultures are a wy, different thing, because 
it conveys who one identifies with, and what one values. That's where things 
are more nuanced. But even here, if the rewards are great enough, we can have 
enough incentive, for people to work together. But not if they're out to cut 
one's throat. 
Where have I ever said that a destabilized America is to my liking? Never said 
anything remotely suggesting that. Does spudboi mean xenophobic potato head 
perchance?
 
 I see... you seem to feel that because you think most  liberals or insert 
whatever label here are this way or that that this gut feeling of yours 
gives you the right to make statements about me, which you have no way of 
knowing the truth of. What a brilliant stretch of reasoning. 
Seriously do you just pull stuff out of your-you-know-where...pin it on people 
who do not share your particular world view and call it a day? Do you have 
starch for brains... are you really that much of a potato head?
You force me to admit that maybe Kim was onto something.
Chris


 


-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:37 pm
Subject: Re: American Intelligence







 From: spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com

This will likely bring some sort of conflict, I am guessing. However, a 
destabilized, US, might be to your liking, emotionally, so as to fit your 
personal world view? In any case you can test out your national friendships 
with China, Russia, Iran, and maybe, ISIS? (That's a great name for a 
group-Ian Fleming couldn't have done better!).

Where have I ever said that a destabilized America is to my liking? Never said 
anything remotely suggesting that. Does spudboi mean xenophobic potato head 
perchance?


Hopefully others will realize that Americans are not all like you spudboi, for 
you -- and your ilk - are the inspiration for a lot of the negative stereotypes 
people have formed about America.
Enjoy life a little potato head; stop being so tiresomely predictable.
Chris



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Re: Is the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy really a wormhole?

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

and we should be able to tell pretty soon - Supermassive Black Hole At The 
Centre Of The Galaxy May Be A Wormhole In Disguise, Say Astronomers

 
   Supermassive Black Hole At The Centre Of The Galaxy Ma...
And if it is a wormhole, this is how it would look…  
View on medium.com Preview by Yahoo  

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Re: Solar power's bright future [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]

2014-06-24 Thread Russell Standish

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 04:31:00PM -0400, John Mikes wrote:
 Russell:
 you wrote:
 
 
 *Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and UV*
 *portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is
 further absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively.*
 
 Is ALL you do mean the SOLAR (!) spectrum we can detect with our
 instruments?
 Are you sure there is nothing else? Liz mentioned EM spectrum *total*. What
 is included in it beyond the above (as part of our unknowables)?
 John M
 

Nothing. We can measure everything in the EM spectrum from sub 1Hz up
to high energy gamma rays. Different instruments are used for
different bands, but they all overlap and are cailbrated against each
other. I understand that the gamma ray spectrum is unbounded, since
any photon with sufficient energy to knock an electron out of an atom
(ionising radiation) will be detected by a photomultiplier, regardless
of whether it is the photoelectric effect, the Comptom effect or pair
production that is involved. The sub 1Hz spectrum really is
unimportant, as there is no useful energy in a photon whose wavelength
is bigger than the Earth.

We also have a well established theory called blackbody radiation
that gives a distribution of photon energies being emitted from a body
at a given temperature. The sun's distribution fits that perfectly, so
we have sound theoretical reasons why it is not emitting anything
appreciable outside that spectrum.

Obviously, the name blackbody radiator is a misnomer, as it needn't
be black, as in the Sun's case. Another example of a blackbody
radiator is the incandescent lightglobe (when turned on!).

-- 


Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

 Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret 
 (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html)


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Re: American Intelligence

2014-06-24 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy

Right off the bat: sorry for this slightly OT post. There is stuff about
discrimination/labeling in the linked video clip below, concerning the
profound truth of All men are rats, however. Higher standards, here we
come!

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy 
 multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 wrote:

 I have to say, I find it a bit silly when people identify too much with
 their nationality (or profession, or gender...) to the point that they get
 offended when a generic remark is made.

 It is fairly obvious that Kim is not suggesting that Chris or Brent or
 any other specific American in this list is a person of low intelligence.
 The generalisation per se might be without merit, but even so it's perhaps
 a good exercise in to learn to tolerate it.

 We have more in common with each other than with the average citizen of
 any of our respective countries.
 Why care so much about imaginary lines in the ground?


 Because without it, opium for the masses like FIFA world cup makes less
 sense, and people would start to realize and have more time to ponder that
 they are getting shafted... and by whom.


 Yup.


  Also we need to get rid of those immigrants stealing all our jobs and
 vote hard right. At least that's what civilized Europe is doing
 increasingly.


 I want to believe that this is a passing fad of populism festering on the
 economic recession.


Yes, same here. Grain of salt is: in Weimar Republic this reasoning was
quite similar with intellectuals until it was too late.

What is left/progressive in the states is somehow moderate business as
usual in Europe, dead center... But this matters little as foe example the
general state prosecutor in Germany finds no concrete indication of
spying in the wake of Merkel scandal and snowden. Word is he styles
himself as keeping peace in international relations, servant to German
state interests.

Of course we need measures to oversee ideological nutjobs
activity/dangerous tech movements etc. But the manner in which this is
conducted needs more scrutiny:

if we can only keep ourselves secure by agreeing to do each others' dirty
laundry, bypassing other sovereign nations' laws, so they may bypass our
own, then I don't see why this isn't perceived as dangerous and cynical;
and because of legal complexity times digital age, even counterproductive
to security on all levels of democratic model (multiplying hacker warfare
etc).

If everybody does it justification would hold sway in courts the way it
does here internationally...




  So you're saying this, but really, you are lamenting Portugal's
 performance ;-) PGC


 Eheh. Hey, Ronaldo had the best haircut though :)


By far! But through long hard work, if time is on our side, we'll naturally
gravitate to better role models/exemplars.



 I can't resist sharing what my favourite comedian (American, btw) has to
 say about nationalism and hating immigrants:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPDT5qHtZ4


He has an indoor smoking permit? Unbelievable, you'd think that people
would drop dead next to him due to passive inhalation! Gosh what chicken
have we become when all jazz bars must be smokeless, no exceptions! While
our pollution, all the threads this has spawned, Liz's thread with the
pesticides...ok.

In appreciation of Telmo's link, here's a recent one you might not have
caught yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXvJqiyiMqQ

The all men are rats statement, its discriminatory impact, and the gender
aspect finally receives thorough treatment there.
PGC

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Re: Germany sets record for peak energy use - 50 percent comes from solar (Update)

2014-06-24 Thread Russell Standish

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:13:32AM -0700, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything 
List wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish
 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 11:47 PM
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: Germany sets record for peak energy use - 50 percent comes from
 solar (Update)

 On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:31:00PM -0700, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything
 List wrote:

  A pity too, Australia is blessed with some prime sun... outback, and
 has some world class talent in photovoltaic university research, as well,
 from what I hear. 

 Indeed - although with a string of postdocs educated by our Martin Green
 that have returned to China, some of whom have become very wealthy indeed
 from the burgeoning PV industry there. 

 Seems the way of the world :).

 Though last I heard Suntech was in the doldrums of bankruptcy and CEO,
 Zhengrong Shi, who was one of Martin Green's pupils -- I believe -- put all
 of that Suntech monolith together. 
 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324557804578372082733827
 860

Ah, right - my information is probably a bit dated. I was aware he was
no longer the richest person in China, but hadn't realised he'd fallen
quite so far! I left UNSW in 2005, and my very close friend who did
her PhD under Martin Green, then later had a career in wind energy,
rather than photovoltaics, died in 2009 from breast cancer.

Cheers

-- 

Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

 Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret 
 (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html)

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Re: Is the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy really a wormhole?

A stargate? I can already hear Thus spake Zarathustra...

On 25 June 2014 11:47, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

and we should be able to tell pretty soon - Supermassive Black Hole At
The Centre Of The Galaxy May Be A Wormhole In Disguise, Say Astronomers
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/supermassive-black-hole-at-the-centre-of-the-galaxy-may-be-a-wormhole-in-disguise-say-astronomers-bb5ae64fa4fa
[image: image]
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/supermassive-black-hole-at-the-centre-of-the-galaxy-may-be-a-wormhole-in-disguise-say-astronomers-bb5ae64fa4fa
Supermassive Black Hole At The Centre Of The Galaxy Ma...
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/supermassive-black-hole-at-the-centre-of-the-galaxy-may-be-a-wormhole-in-disguise-say-astronomers-bb5ae64fa4fa
And if it is a wormhole, this is how it would look…
View on medium.com
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/supermassive-black-hole-at-the-centre-of-the-galaxy-may-be-a-wormhole-in-disguise-say-astronomers-bb5ae64fa4fa
Preview by Yahoo

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Re: Is the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy really a wormhole?

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Wait, what's this? both black holes and wormholes sit behind an event
horizon from which light cannot escape - in that case, what's the use of
it? If nothing can get out (and nothing can if light can't) then how does
it differ from a black hole? I thought the point of wormholes was that they
are traversable (although GR suggests they aren't except when exotic
forces come into play...)

On 25 June 2014 12:33, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

A stargate? I can already hear Thus spake Zarathustra...

On 25 June 2014 11:47, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

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Re: A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously From Nothing

Interesting synopsis of a paper on http://arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207 -- don't have 
access though -- so here is the write up. Not sure if this has already been 
discussed here or not.
A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously From 
Nothing

 
   A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Fo...
Cosmologists assume that natural quantum fluctuations allowed the Big Bang to 
happen spontaneously. Now they have a math…  
View on medium.com Preview by Yahoo  

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Re: Is the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy really a wormhole?

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List






 From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Is the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy really 
a wormhole?
 


Wait, what's this? both black holes and wormholes sit behind an event horizon 
from which light cannot escape - in that case, what's the use of it? If 
nothing can get out (and nothing can if light can't) then how does it differ 
from a black hole? I thought the point of wormholes was that they are 
traversable (although GR suggests they aren't except when exotic forces come 
into play...)


The even horizon serves to keep the riff-raff who have yet to master exotic 
matter out :)
Chris





On 25 June 2014 12:33, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

A stargate? I can already hear Thus spake Zarathustra...




On 25 June 2014 11:47, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

and we should be able to tell pretty soon - Supermassive Black Hole At The 
Centre Of The Galaxy May Be A Wormhole In Disguise, Say Astronomers

 
   Supermassive Black Hole At The Centre Of The Galaxy Ma...
And if it is a wormhole, this is how it would look…  
View on medium.com Preview by Yahoo  
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Re: A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously From Nothing

This item in further reading looks interesting too

https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/7ef5eea6fd7a

(Not that I'm not busy here at work...[?] )


On 25 June 2014 12:44, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Interesting synopsis of a paper on http://arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207 --
 don't have access though -- so here is the write up. Not sure if this has
 already been discussed here or not.
 A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously
 From Nothing https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/ed7ed0f304a3
 [image: image] https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/ed7ed0f304a3
 A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Fo...
 https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/ed7ed0f304a3
 Cosmologists assume that natural quantum fluctuations allowed the Big Bang
 to happen spontaneously. Now they have a math…
 View on medium.com
 https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/ed7ed0f304a3
 Preview by Yahoo

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Re: Pluto bounces back!

On 25 June 2014 03:34, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 What about this Irish Times article? It seems to be out of the box
 thinking. I don't know, if true, that it has any value for the human
 species? But it might in my imagination. My imagination, plus 3.50, can get
 me a coffee latte. Any thoughts, condemnatory or laudatory.

 http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/what-if-god-were-part-of-the-natural-order-1.1836816

 Any sufficiently advanced alien is indistinguishable from God.

This has been exploited by explorers meeting primitive peoples, at least in
fiction but probably in reality too. Plus Captain Kirk used to come across
them with monotonous regularity - the Organians and all that.

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Re: American Intelligence

On 25 June 2014 08:50, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote:


 My original post was only apparently about Americans and their negative
 qualities. That was just some content by which to,articulate the main
 purpose of the thread: a demonstration of provocation which is a known
 thinking skill.


I see. So if you were to say, act like a jerk or a racist or whatever, and
then people reacted by calling you one, and you thought perhaps you'd gone
a bit over the top, you wouldn't then come up with a rationalisation about
how it was all really some sort of psychological demonstation?

Just checking, because it can be easy to confuse the two.

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Re: Pluto bounces back!

2014-06-24 Thread meekerdb


On 6/23/2014 7:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
There is a problem with radical islamism, but the real problem is in the exploitation of 
that problem by bandits to hide their lucrative criminal activities.


This is naive.  Bandits do lucrative criminal acts to get money which can purchase goods, 
luxury, women, power.  So why do suppose that no one uses religion to get goods, luxury, 
women, power,..?  You just want to excuse religion and blame it all on some criminal 
acts.  What is a crime is often defined by religion and it often includes questioning the 
priesthood and the official dogma. So the problem is not just radical Islam; it is any 
Islam, and any religion, which has a dogma and requires belief in that dogma to avoid 
sanctions and punishment in this life or a putative afterlife...that is to say 90% of all 
religions.


Brent
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and 
slay them before me.

   --- Jesus, Luke 19:27

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Re: Disproving physicalism from COMP

On 25 June 2014 01:07, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tuesday, June 24, 2014, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 24 June 2014 17:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


 If primitive matter existed, and if it has a role for consciousness, or
 for consciousness instantiation, step 8, and the argument above, makes that
 role very mysterious, so much that it is not clear why we could still say
 yes to the doctor in virtue of correct digital rendering.


 You can still say yes to the doctor because he is going to use matter to
 make your brain prosthesis.


 Surely that will just be a copy that thinks it's you - it won't be you,
 so if you are destroyed in the process of making the digital copy, you
 really do die. While in comp the digital copy *is* you, by definition.


 It could be that comp is false, so it is impossible to make a digital
 copy of your biological brain, but a biological copy would work just fine,
 and really be you.

 It could be, but my point is that you'd need a theory of why two identical
material objects are really the same object. I know of no such theory,
except perhaps when the objects in question are part of a BEC, but I do
know* that comp is based on the assumption that two identical computations
are the same thing (as indeed are an infinite number of them)

*well, I think I know. Maybe I should say I believe.

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Re: A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously From Nothing

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

This has a few interesting corollaries, ISTM.

1. It hints that there might be a way to distinguish the pilot wave
interpretation of QM from the rest, which could be handy

2. It hints at eternal inflation (the second bit of support for this in the
last few months, assuming the BICEP results stand up). EI gives rise to a
Level 1 multiverse which makes the MWI's multiverse redundant, in a sense.

3. It DOESN'T explain how the universe formed spontaneously from nothing,
however! It explains how a patch of false vacuum or whatever which obeys
the Wheeler-deWitt equation could have generated an expanding space-time,
and given 2. there is no need for anything to appear from nothing - we have
a steady state cosmos, on the largest scale.

On 25 June 2014 12:44, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Interesting synopsis of a paper on http://arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207 --
 don't have access though -- so here is the write up. Not sure if this has
 already been discussed here or not.
 A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously
 From Nothing https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/ed7ed0f304a3



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RE: Germany sets record for peak energy use - 50 percent comes from solar (Update)

-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 5:17 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Germany sets record for peak energy use - 50 percent comes from
solar (Update)

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:13:32AM -0700, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything
List wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell 
 Standish
 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 11:47 PM
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: Germany sets record for peak energy use - 50 percent 
 comes from solar (Update)

 On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:31:00PM -0700, 'Chris de Morsella' via 
 Everything List wrote:

  A pity too, Australia is blessed with some prime sun... outback, and
 has some world class talent in photovoltaic university research, as 
 well, from what I hear.

 Indeed - although with a string of postdocs educated by our Martin 
 Green that have returned to China, some of whom have become very 
 wealthy indeed from the burgeoning PV industry there.

 Seems the way of the world :).

 Though last I heard Suntech was in the doldrums of bankruptcy and CEO, 
 Zhengrong Shi, who was one of Martin Green's pupils -- I believe -- 
 put all of that Suntech monolith together.
 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324557804578372082
 733827
 860

Ah, right - my information is probably a bit dated. I was aware he was no
longer the richest person in China, but hadn't realised he'd fallen quite so
far! I left UNSW in 2005, and my very close friend who did her PhD under
Martin Green, then later had a career in wind energy, rather than
photovoltaics, died in 2009 from breast cancer.

It must have been an empire built on debt, which basically applies to all
empires come to think of it; once it began unravelling the corporate
implosion could not be stopped. For a while there Zhengrong Shi was riding
high... so close to the sun, but now, like Icarus, his wings have melted and
the soaring figure is falling fast back down to earth.
Cheers,
Chris
P.S. Sorry about your friend; hope she did not suffer.

Cheers

-- 

Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

 Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret 
 (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html)

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RE: American Intelligence

2014-06-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kim Jones
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:51 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: American Intelligence

On 25 Jun 2014, at 5:58 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

I assumed Kim's original post was intended partly ironically. Clearly there are 
a lot of intelligent Americans, but there does seem to be a bit of a dumbed 
down culture there at times.

My original post was only apparently about Americans and their negative 
qualities. That was just some content by which to,articulate the main purpose 
of the thread: a demonstration of provocation which is a known thinking 
skill. 

As Liz pointed out – a quite convenient post facto position to take… for you. 
But okay… I’ll take you at your word and assume that this is a clever little 
online lab experiment you have going on here… by the way does that make us all 
lab rats?

You can be as racist as you want, just as long as the observations made are 
positive ones, which nobody feels hurt, rather flattered by; particularly if 
they happen to be American. I am showing the diference between real thinking, 
which is a emtal operation performed independently of one's personal values, 
and perception which is where we articulate our values and hence talk largely 
about ourselves and not the subject.

The prejudicial heaping of praise upon some group becomes as obnoxious over 
time as prejudicial disparagement. It is the prejudicial mindset itself that is 
offensive to reason; it is the abdication of reason for premade answers. 
Naturally negative prejudice is going to elicit a more immediate response, but 
this is due to its offensive nature. This does not however mean that therefore 
people accept the prejudice of praise, especially people who do not belong to 
the particular group that is benefitting from all the undeserved praise. But 
even if one is a member of the group getting underserved flattery, suspicion 
grows (in most healthy balanced minds at least) as to the underlying motive for 
the stream of fawning praise. Suspicion of ass kissers is as far as I know an 
almost universal shared cultural value.

You have all been misled by the content of the post, and not the process 
embodied by the thinking, which is precisely what I expected would happen. 
Thank you for turning a discussion into an argumemt complete with the usual ad 
hominems and slanderous attacks. This is what happens when people place their 
values in front of their thinking. This is what is known as argument; it is 
the basis of most Western thinking and we are infected by it like a heliobactor 
pylori bacterium that never goes away.

Thank you – assuming your are of your word – for turning us all into your lab 
rats. Did we all sign a consent form; must have missed it. In the sixties 
sometimes people used to slip acid into peoples drinks… they thought they were 
manifesting enlightenment, but weren’t they rather more ethically challenged 
than enlightened?

What you began was no discussion, but rather a rapid descent into prejudice 
(for whatever motive you took it there). I am bewildered how you could see your 
original act as anything other than a clear trajectory into a prejudicial 
mindset, which you followed up on and expounded upon characterizing Americans – 
who is that exactly? – as yahoos with a cowboy mindset who settle things by 
shooting people – hard to define that as subtle or difficult to interpret in 
any other way than ugly stereotyping (even if done for some occult experimental 
intent). It was never turned into an argument; it began its existence as an act 
designed to provoke argument, and you led it there.

If someone should slap someone across the face, it seems to me that they should 
not be all that surprised if they, in turn get slapped back. Again, I believe 
this is pretty commonly understood by people everywhere. even amongst 
Christians who like to pretend they turn the other cheek (few practice that 
tradition).

Chris

To learn to think properly, there is a need to forget entirely about the 
importance of one's values and to concentrate on learning the PROCESS of 
thinking. Real thinking can make use of any content at all. All that is 
necessary is something to think about. The default tendency is for people to 
polarise their opinions into,a for and an against which is the nadir of 
true thinking. In true thinking there are a myriad points bewtween yes and 
no and discovering them is what I call creative thinking. You might have a 
bunch of data that supports your stance about something, but by using a process 
of creative thinking you might arrive at a different interpretation of that 
data.

Ths is what Bruno does and why he qualifies to my mind as a highly gifted 
creative thinker. He takes the existing ideas and runs a new filter over them 
and comes up with a new way of seeing them.

It is true that we

Re: Pluto bounces back!

2014-06-24 Thread meekerdb

On 6/24/2014 12:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Google does not seem to know of its existence.

The net does not know everything, and contains a lot of propaganda of many
kinds.

Bruno

Have you read Scott Aaronson's latest blog in which he discusses the application of Google
technology to the problem to defining morality and improving democracy?

http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/

Eigenmorality
June 18th, 2014

This post is about an idea I had around 1997, when I was 16 years old and a freshman
computer-science major at Cornell. Back then, I was extremely impressed by a research
project called CLEVER, which one of my professors, Jon Kleinberg, had led while working at
IBM Almaden. The idea was to use the link structure of the web itself to rank which web
pages were most important, and therefore which ones should be returned first in a search
query. Specifically, Kleinberg defined hubs as pages that linked to lots of
authorities, and authorities as pages that were linked to by lots of hubs. At first
glance, this definition seems hopelessly circular, but Kleinberg observed that one can
break the circularity by just treating the World Wide Web as a giant directed graph, and
doing some linear algebra on its adjacency matrix.

...

Brent

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Re: Disproving physicalism from COMP

2014-06-24 Thread meekerdb


On 6/24/2014 2:29 AM, LizR wrote:

On 24 June 2014 17:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


If primitive matter existed, and if it has a role for consciousness, or 
for
consciousness instantiation, step 8, and the argument above, makes that 
role
very mysterious, so much that it is not clear why we could still say 
yes to the
doctor in virtue of correct digital rendering.


You can still say yes to the doctor because he is going to use matter to 
make your
brain prosthesis.


Surely that will just be a copy that thinks it's you - it won't be you, so if you are 
destroyed in the process of making the digital copy, you really do die. While in comp 
the digital copy /is/ you, by definition.


?? Comp is the theory that it will be you after the doctor gives you a prothesis for your 
brain (plus some other assumptions).  It will be you even after you are duplicated (though 
it's troubling for JKC that you is both singular and plural).


Brent

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New consciousness paper

2014-06-24 Thread ColinHales

Dear Folk,

I thought you might be interested in the following paper, which is
essentially my PhD outcome packaged into a journal paper (49 pages!),
contextualised with respect to consciousness, and now finally published in
a special journal issue on the ‘Hard problem of Consciousness’.
Online-ready only at this point. Came out yesterday.

Hales, Colin G. 2014: 'The origins of the brain’s endogenous
electromagnetic field and its relationship to provision of consciousness'.
*Journal
of Integrative Neuroscience*, Vol 13 Issue 2, pp. 1-49.

http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0219635214400056?queryID=%24{resultBean.queryID}

http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0219635214400056?queryID=%24%7bresultBean.queryID%7d

*ABSTRACT*

As a potential source of consciousness, the brain's endogenous
electromagnetic (EM) field has much to commend it. Difficulties connecting
EM phenomena and consciousness have been exacerbated by the lack of a
specific conclusive biophysically realistic mechanism originating the EM
field, its form and dynamics. This work explores a potential mechanism: the
spatial and temporal coherent action of transmembrane ion channel currents
which simultaneously produce electric and magnetic fields that dominate all
other field sources. Ion channels, as tiny current filaments, express, at a
distance, the electric and magnetic fields akin to those of a short
(transmembrane) copper wire. Following assembly of appropriate formalisms
from EM field theory, the paper computationally explores the scalar
electric potential produced by the current filaments responsible for an
action potential (AP) in a realistic hippocampus CA1 pyramidal neuron. It
reveals that AP signaling can impress a highly structured, focused and
directed sweeping-lighthouse beam that illuminates neighbors at mm
scales. Ion channel currents thereby provide a possible explanation for
both EEG/MEG origins and recently confirmed functional EM coupling effects.
Finally, a physically plausible EM field decomposition is posited. It
reveals objective and subjective perspectives intrinsic to the
membrane-centric field dynamics. Perceptual fields can be seen to operate
as the collective action of virtual EM-boson composites (called qualeons)
visible only by being the fields, yet objectively appear as the familiar
EM field activity. This explains the problematic evidence presentation and
offers a physically plausible route to a solution to the hard problem.

For those impoverished and for those without institutional access I do have
the preprint. Just email me.

Cheers

Colin Hales

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Re: American Intelligence