Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and di...

2011-11-22 Thread Nick Prince 


On Nov 15, 12:11 am, Russell Standish  wrote:
> In principle, yes. What you are talking about is "quantum erasure". It
> should even be possible to do it without forgetting the current
> worldline (in which case one is really finding a consistent
> continuation of the current worldline that happens to be very similar to
> the destination worldline). This would be rather similar to
> teleportation type scenarios where instead of just teleporting through
> space, one teleports through time. How this might be arranged
> practically seems even more removed than than the space case, but
> theoretically it should be similar.
>
> I'm not at all sure how you might refute QTI using this, but please elaborate.
>
> Cheers
>
>
Hi Russell

Is teleportation through (space)time not just the same as Bruno's UDA
argument where a delay in the reconstitution takes place?

If we were to be sure that the universe was just a level 1 type but
was infinite in space and time, would you not think that a consistent
continuation through time  for any of our observer moments would be
necessary  since eventually some worldine which could act as such a
consistent continuation will occur.

This seems to support QTI not refute it.

Kind regards

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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and di...

2011-11-16 Thread spudboy100 

Hello, Professor Standish, by the way I do have your book, "The Theory of 
Nothing (softcover) and enjoyed it, immensely. My question is obviously, 
something that must be rooted in fantasy, as it appears to have little basis in 
physics or math. I was trying to see, if it was possible to be a tourist, when 
concerning the Everett-Wheeler-DeWitt conjecture; of other worlds/universes. 
There is a significant amount of scifi and fantasy, regarding this. Looks as it 
will remain a fantasy, inndeed. Much, Thanks!

Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Russell Standish 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 3:41 am
Subject: Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs 
and di...


In principle, yes. What you are talking about is "quantum erasure". It
hould even be possible to do it without forgetting the current
orldline (in which case one is really finding a consistent
ontinuation of the current worldline that happens to be very similar to
he destination worldline). This would be rather similar to
eleportation type scenarios where instead of just teleporting through
pace, one teleports through time. How this might be arranged
ractically seems even more removed than than the space case, but
heoretically it should be similar.
I'm not at all sure how you might refute QTI using this, but please elaborate.
Cheers
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 03:11:59PM -0500, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
 This may be off-topic, but taking on a fanciful, notion; is there a means,  
 in principle, for somebody biologically alive, to physically go into other  
 world-lines? I am using the Hugh Everett the 3rd's conception of other  
 worlds/universes. I am, just as a thought, trying to negate the Quantum Theory 
 
> of Immortality, just to see if anyone can imagine how crossing world lines, 
  without death, might be possible. Or rather, what it might look  like?
 
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isiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and di...

2011-11-16 Thread Russell Standish 
In principle, yes. What you are talking about is "quantum erasure". It
should even be possible to do it without forgetting the current
worldline (in which case one is really finding a consistent
continuation of the current worldline that happens to be very similar to
the destination worldline). This would be rather similar to
teleportation type scenarios where instead of just teleporting through
space, one teleports through time. How this might be arranged
practically seems even more removed than than the space case, but
theoretically it should be similar.

I'm not at all sure how you might refute QTI using this, but please elaborate.

Cheers

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 03:11:59PM -0500, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
> This may be off-topic, but taking on a fanciful, notion; is there a means,  
> in principle, for somebody biologically alive, to physically go into other  
> world-lines? I am using the Hugh Everett the 3rd's conception of other  
> worlds/universes. I am, just as a thought, trying to negate the Quantum 
> Theory  
> of Immortality, just to see if anyone can imagine how crossing world lines, 
>  without death, might be possible. Or rather, what it might look  like?
> 
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-- 


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Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and di...

2011-11-15 Thread Bruno Marchal 


On 14 Nov 2011, at 21:11, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

This may be off-topic, but taking on a fanciful, notion; is there a  
means, in principle, for somebody biologically alive, to physically  
go into other world-lines?


With the QM theory: no.

But Steven Weinberg has shown that if QM is slightly false (slightly  
less linear, with the Schroedinger equation becoming an  
approximation), then we can physically go in the other branch of the  
quantum multiverse. But then thermodynamic, electromagnetism and  
relativity become wrong, and this makes such reasoning into a reductio  
ad absurdum of the idea that QM could be slightly false.


From a paper by Plaga, years ago, I convince myself that if QM is  
slightly non linear, we could build infinitely solid and elastic  
object, but then nothing could be moving in a relativistic universe.  
The contraction of length would be blocked.





I am using the Hugh Everett the 3rd's conception of other worlds/ 
universes. I am, just as a thought, trying to negate the Quantum  
Theory of Immortality, just to see if anyone can imagine how  
crossing world lines, without death, might be possible. Or rather,  
what it might look like?


The best we could do would be to construct artificial quantum brain,  
according to an idea of Deutsch. This would allow us to be aware of  
being in many universes at once, but we would still have to forget  
what we see in each universe to re-fuse in one universe. Still we  
could remember having seen different things, but being not able to  
tell them precisely.


Basically the same already occurs with arithmetic (instead of quantum  
mechanics), except that *a priori*, the realities does not evolve  
linearly. Well, we can hope they do, if not, mechanism is wrong, or  
current physics is wrong.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and di...

2011-11-14 Thread Spudboy100 
This may be off-topic, but taking on a fanciful, notion; is there a means,  
in principle, for somebody biologically alive, to physically go into other  
world-lines? I am using the Hugh Everett the 3rd's conception of other  
worlds/universes. I am, just as a thought, trying to negate the Quantum Theory  
of Immortality, just to see if anyone can imagine how crossing world lines, 
 without death, might be possible. Or rather, what it might look  like?

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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and differentiation)

2011-11-14 Thread Bruno Marchal 


On 07 Nov 2011, at 23:08, John Mikes wrote:

To Qentin: "DEATH" an excellent vaiation for immoprtality. I always  
emphasize that ETERNITY is NOT a "time" indicator, can most likely  
be timeless ("POOF" it is over).



To Bruno:
we wrote already about your 2c question "WHO ARE WE?" and you  
answered something like "Gods".
That may be a cheap shot, but unidentifiable are both.  
(Philosophical Goedelism: you cannot identify
yourself from within yourself). For sure we are not what WE think we  
are.



Computer science: a consistent digital machine cannot prove to be any  
consistent machine.


Computer science: if we accept Theaetetus' definition of knowledge, a  
sound machine can be said to be NOT able to NOT identify herself with  
something she can NOT even name.


We might perhaps be ONLY what WE think we are.  Alas, we cannot know  
for sure who or what WE are or do the thinking.


Bruno






John M




On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:

Quentin,

On 30 Oct 2011, at 23:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


benjayk:
On the other hand, I don't see why we would ignore immortality of
consciousness, considering that the "I" is just a psychosocial
construct/illusion anyway. We don't find an actual "I" anywhere. It  
seems
very relevant to know that the actual essence of experience can  
indeed
survive eternally. Why would I care whether an imagined "I"  
experiences it

or not?

How would you call this, if not immortality?

Death.




Quentin,

Could you imagine making a dream where you are someone else?

Can you imagine waking up, and remembering your life as a dream, and  
at the same time remembering "the" previous life?


I think we can dissociate from memories. I think we can identifying  
our identity, if I can say, with something deeper than the memories.


Memories are important, if only to avoid painful loops, and to  
progress, which is the making of histories. But like bodies, it  
makes sense that we own them, we are not them, I mean, not  
necessarily are we them.


We might be more our possible values, than the past local  
necessities. We might be more what we do with the memories than the  
memories themselves, which are very contingent and local.


Perhaps we should allow ourselves thought experiences with amnesia,  
and dissociation. We practice dissociation and re-association all  
night, but usually we forget all of this.


Who are we?

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and differentiation)

2011-11-07 Thread John Mikes 
To Qentin: "DEATH" an excellent vaiation for immoprtality. I always
emphasize that ETERNITY is NOT a "time" indicator, can most likely be
timeless ("POOF" it is over).


To Bruno:
we wrote already about your 2c question "WHO ARE WE?" and you answered
something like "Gods".
That may be a cheap shot, but unidentifiable are both. (Philosophical
Goedelism: you cannot identify
yourself from within yourself). For sure we are not what WE think we are.

John M





On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

> Quentin,
>
>  On 30 Oct 2011, at 23:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>
>  benjayk:
>> On the other hand, I don't see why we would ignore immortality of
>> consciousness, considering that the "I" is just a psychosocial
>> construct/illusion anyway. We don't find an actual "I" anywhere. It seems
>> very relevant to know that the actual essence of experience can indeed
>> survive eternally. Why would I care whether an imagined "I" experiences it
>> or not?
>>
>> How would you call this, if not immortality?
>
>
> Death.
>
>
>
> Quentin,
>
> Could you imagine making a dream where you are someone else?
>
> Can you imagine waking up, and remembering your life as a dream, and at
> the same time remembering "the" previous life?
>
> I think we can dissociate from memories. I think we can identifying our
> identity, if I can say, with something deeper than the memories.
>
> Memories are important, if only to avoid painful loops, and to progress,
> which is the making of histories. But like bodies, it makes sense that we
> own them, we are not them, I mean, not necessarily are we them.
>
> We might be more our possible values, than the past local necessities. We
> might be more what we do with the memories than the memories themselves,
> which are very contingent and local.
>
> Perhaps we should allow ourselves thought experiences with amnesia, and
> dissociation. We practice dissociation and re-association all night, but
> usually we forget all of this.
>
> Who are we?
>
> Bruno
>
>
>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity

2011-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal 


On 06 Nov 2011, at 21:18, meekerdb wrote:


On 11/6/2011 1:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


Quentin,

On 30 Oct 2011, at 23:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


benjayk:
On the other hand, I don't see why we would ignore immortality of
consciousness, considering that the "I" is just a psychosocial
construct/illusion anyway. We don't find an actual "I" anywhere.  
It seems
very relevant to know that the actual essence of experience can  
indeed
survive eternally. Why would I care whether an imagined "I"  
experiences it

or not?

How would you call this, if not immortality?

Death.




Quentin,

Could you imagine making a dream where you are someone else?

Can you imagine waking up, and remembering your life as a dream,  
and at the same time remembering "the" previous life?


I don't think I can.  My "previous life" is too detailed complete  
and driven decisions I've made for it to be a dream.


Exactly. And that is what you remember in this thought experience. And  
compared to it, your "current life" might seem incoherent and fuzzy.








I think we can dissociate from memories. I think we can identifying  
our identity, if I can say, with something deeper than the memories.


"Deeper" than conscious memeories, but there's a lot more to  
memories than consciousness.  You can ride a bicycle with  
remembering how to do it consciously.  What strikes you as good and  
valuable was learned at some time.


Not necessarily. Truth might be good before we learn it. And when did  
we learn them. Some truth has learn by humans only through their very  
long history. Plato intuited this in his reminiscence theory.
Science has not yet decided between Plato and Aristotle's metaphysic.  
I think Aristotle metaphysics is hard to sustain given the facts.


Bruno





Brent



Memories are important, if only to avoid painful loops, and to  
progress, which is the making of histories. But like bodies, it  
makes sense that we own them, we are not them, I mean, not  
necessarily are we them.


We might be more our possible values, than the past local  
necessities. We might be more what we do with the memories   
than the memories themselves, which are very contingent and local.


Perhaps we should allow ourselves thought experiences with amnesia,  
and dissociation. We practice dissociation and re-association all  
night, but usually we forget all of this.


Who are we?

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity

2011-11-06 Thread meekerdb 

On 11/6/2011 1:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Quentin,

On 30 Oct 2011, at 23:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


benjayk:
On the other hand, I don't see why we would ignore immortality of
consciousness, considering that the "I" is just a psychosocial
construct/illusion anyway. We don't find an actual "I" anywhere. It seems
very relevant to know that the actual essence of experience can indeed
survive eternally. Why would I care whether an imagined "I" experiences it
or not?

How would you call this, if not immortality?


Death.



Quentin,

Could you imagine making a dream where you are someone else?

Can you imagine waking up, and remembering your life as a dream, and at the same time 
remembering "the" previous life?


I don't think I can.  My "previous life" is too detailed complete and driven decisions 
I've made for it to be a dream.




I think we can dissociate from memories. I think we can identifying our identity, if I 
can say, with something deeper than the memories.


"Deeper" than conscious memeories, but there's a lot more to memories than consciousness.  
You can ride a bicycle with remembering how to do it consciously.  What strikes you as 
good and valuable was learned at some time.


Brent



Memories are important, if only to avoid painful loops, and to progress, which is the 
making of histories. But like bodies, it makes sense that we own them, we are not them, 
I mean, not necessarily are we them.


We might be more our possible values, than the past local necessities. We might be more 
what we do with the memories than the memories themselves, which are very contingent and 
local.


Perhaps we should allow ourselves thought experiences with amnesia, and dissociation. We 
practice dissociation and re-association all night, but usually we forget all of this.


Who are we?

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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19:34:00



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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and differentiation)

2011-11-06 Thread Bruno Marchal 


On 06 Nov 2011, at 12:29, Quentin Anciaux wrote:




2011/11/6 Bruno Marchal 
Quentin,

On 30 Oct 2011, at 23:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


benjayk:
On the other hand, I don't see why we would ignore immortality of
consciousness, considering that the "I" is just a psychosocial
construct/illusion anyway. We don't find an actual "I" anywhere. It  
seems
very relevant to know that the actual essence of experience can  
indeed
survive eternally. Why would I care whether an imagined "I"  
experiences it

or not?

How would you call this, if not immortality?

Death.




Quentin,

Could you imagine making a dream where you are someone else?

Can you imagine waking up, and remembering your life as a dream, and  
at the same time remembering "the" previous life?


Yes, but and I can accept that as a form of continuation of my life  
*but* contrary to benjayk example... you *remember* that life even  
as a dream.


OK. But then you might be able to dissociate yourself from the "hero"  
of the dream, which can help to realize that the content of memories  
might not be so important for the identity. Forgetting a dream is no  
death, just a special form of amnesia.


To be sure, I do agree with you, in your conversation with benjayk,  
that consciousness needs a "self", but the "self" might be more like a  
general computer control structure than a collection of memories. That  
is why we might have superficial little ego (quite crucial in everyday- 
life decision) and deeper selves, more related to what is invariant in  
our experiences.
Peano arithmetic has very few memories, if any in the usual sense, yet  
it has already a quite sophisticated self (obeying to G, G*, etc.).







I think we can dissociate from memories. I think we can identifying  
our identity, if I can say, with something deeper than the memories.


Sure but if there are no memories left, there is nothing left for  
"immortality".


I am not entirely sure of that. We tend to put a lot of price in our  
memories, but then many put a lot of price in the mundane objects as  
well. It is partially natural to do that, but concerning identity, in  
the long run, it might be less important than what we are "programmed"  
or accustomed (by evolution) to believe.







Memories are important, if only to avoid painful loops, and to  
progress, which is the making of histories. But like bodies, it  
makes sense that we own them, we are not them, I mean, not  
necessarily are we them.


Without them anybody is anybody, and it's meaningless to talk about  
immortality in that context.


Unless the abstract self discovers it has a personality of its own.  
This helps to recognize oneself in the other, and even to "selfishly"  
hope for the happiness of others.
Memories can also be like a bullet, preventing you to see a bigger  
part of the picture. The brain already use a lot of energy to classify  
and erase (or make less accessible) many memories; it might be a  
matter of choice to give them some importance or not. New events can  
shift the emphasis of previous event memories. Many memories have some  
role in our present life, but might appear as useless, if not  
handicapping, with respect to new and different type of experiences.


Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and differentiation)

2011-11-06 Thread Quentin Anciaux 
2011/11/6 Bruno Marchal 

> Quentin,
>
> On 30 Oct 2011, at 23:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>
> benjayk:
>> On the other hand, I don't see why we would ignore immortality of
>> consciousness, considering that the "I" is just a psychosocial
>> construct/illusion anyway. We don't find an actual "I" anywhere. It seems
>> very relevant to know that the actual essence of experience can indeed
>> survive eternally. Why would I care whether an imagined "I" experiences it
>> or not?
>>
>> How would you call this, if not immortality?
>
>
> Death.
>
>
>
> Quentin,
>
> Could you imagine making a dream where you are someone else?
>
> Can you imagine waking up, and remembering your life as a dream, and at
> the same time remembering "the" previous life?
>

Yes, but and I can accept that as a form of continuation of my life *but*
contrary to benjayk example... you *remember* that life even as a dream.


>
> I think we can dissociate from memories. I think we can identifying our
> identity, if I can say, with something deeper than the memories.
>

Sure but if there are no memories left, there is nothing left for
"immortality".


>
> Memories are important, if only to avoid painful loops, and to progress,
> which is the making of histories. But like bodies, it makes sense that we
> own them, we are not them, I mean, not necessarily are we them.
>

Without them anybody is anybody, and it's meaningless to talk about
immortality in that context.

Quentin.


>
> We might be more our possible values, than the past local necessities. We
> might be more what we do with the memories than the memories themselves,
> which are very contingent and local.
>
> Perhaps we should allow ourselves thought experiences with amnesia, and
> dissociation. We practice dissociation and re-association all night, but
> usually we forget all of this.
>
> Who are we?
>
> Bruno
>
>
>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
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Amnesia, dissociation and personal identity (was: QTI, Cul de sacs and differentiation)

2011-11-06 Thread Bruno Marchal 

Quentin,

On 30 Oct 2011, at 23:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


benjayk:
On the other hand, I don't see why we would ignore immortality of
consciousness, considering that the "I" is just a psychosocial
construct/illusion anyway. We don't find an actual "I" anywhere. It  
seems

very relevant to know that the actual essence of experience can indeed
survive eternally. Why would I care whether an imagined "I"  
experiences it

or not?

How would you call this, if not immortality?

Death.




Quentin,

Could you imagine making a dream where you are someone else?

Can you imagine waking up, and remembering your life as a dream, and  
at the same time remembering "the" previous life?


I think we can dissociate from memories. I think we can identifying  
our identity, if I can say, with something deeper than the memories.


Memories are important, if only to avoid painful loops, and to  
progress, which is the making of histories. But like bodies, it makes  
sense that we own them, we are not them, I mean, not necessarily are  
we them.


We might be more our possible values, than the past local necessities.  
We might be more what we do with the memories than the memories  
themselves, which are very contingent and local.


Perhaps we should allow ourselves thought experiences with amnesia,  
and dissociation. We practice dissociation and re-association all  
night, but usually we forget all of this.


Who are we?

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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