Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
On 2/7/2014 10:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Feb 2014, at 22:49, LizR wrote: Hawking gets the attention because he has ALS. It's not a tradeoff many would want to make. He might get attention also because he is a star in the field (rather well deserve for its accomplishment). Of course it is good for him, and possibly sad for some other scientists, which might do good work but be ignored. History of science is full of misattributions of all kind. It is not really important for the ideas, but of course it can be important for the more peculiar steak, moral, fundings, etc. I haven't studied it enough to be sure but a quick skim gives me the impression that Mitra's eternally collapsing object assumes some impossible properties of the stress-energy and that's why it can violate the Hawking-Penrose theorem. Conceivably those properties might be implied by quantum gravity, but that's rather different from just postulating them. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
On 06 Feb 2014, at 22:49, LizR wrote: Hawking gets the attention because he has ALS. It's not a tradeoff many would want to make. He might get attention also because he is a star in the field (rather well deserve for its accomplishment). Of course it is good for him, and possibly sad for some other scientists, which might do good work but be ignored. History of science is full of misattributions of all kind. It is not really important for the ideas, but of course it can be important for the more peculiar steak, moral, fundings, etc. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
On 7 February 2014 13:42, Chris de Morsella wrote: > -- > *From:* LizR > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, February 6, 2014 2:34 PM > *Subject:* Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before > Hawking > > On 7 February 2014 11:17, Chris de Morsella wrote: > > Perhaps, but also true that most ALS sufferers do not get such attention & > media adulation. > > > >> Perhaps because they aren't world famous scientist? I'm not sure what > you expect here! > > Which is what I was suggesting... namely that Hawkins got known first and > foremost because of his work and not because of his ALS... though his ALS > certainly makes him a compelling figure. > Depends what you mean by well known. He becamse well known by the public when he published "A brief history of time" - but obviously he was well known amongst physicists for the singularity theorem with Penrose (iirc?) and Hawking radiation. (Of course he only became a rock star once he'd been portrayed by Benedict Cumberbatch...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
From: LizR To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 2:34 PM Subject: Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking On 7 February 2014 11:17, Chris de Morsella wrote: Perhaps, but also true that most ALS sufferers do not get such attention & media adulation. >> Perhaps because they aren't world famous scientist? I'm not sure what you >> expect here! Which is what I was suggesting... namely that Hawkins got known first and foremost because of his work and not because of his ALS... though his ALS certainly makes him a compelling figure. I appreciate Mitra feeling bitter about this, but at least it should get his result more public awareness. I do find it very interesting, more so than any squabbling about who was first. Looks like Mitra has done a far better job anyway so that's what I'm really interested in. (Maybe now there will be an article for dummies like me in scientific american...) Also tbh I haven't really thought Hawking was doing much actual science for a long time, as an interested lay-person at least, despite him being called in on the odd well-publicised bet ... (plus his "imaginary time" idea seems to have dropped off the radar). He's good for the odd quote about the mind of God and fire in the equations... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
From: meekerdb >> Mitra's theory seems to contradict Penrose's proof that any GR solution with >> a closed event horizon must contain a singularity. Before Penrose's theorem >> there was a widespread opinion among physicists that something like Mitra's >> picture must be true and that the singularities in solutions like >> Schwarzschild's were just due to the idealized perfect spherical symmetry or >> the idealized equations of state. But Penrose bypassed all that and made a >> purely topological argument. So Hawking isn't saying that Mitra is right, >> Hawking is rejecting Penrose's theorem on the grounds that it doesn't >> consider quantum effects. Thanks for the clarification about the subtle distinction between the reasoning in Hawking's recent short paper and Mitra's earlier theory. Brent On 2/6/2014 12:45 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Giving credit where credit is due. > > >http://twocircles.net/2014feb05/indian_physicist_resolved_black_hole_paradox_much_hawking.html > > >Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking > >By K.S.Jayaraman, IANS, > >Bangalore : A new paper released late last month in which famed British >physicist Stephen Hawking contradicts his own theory and says that Black Holes >- in the real sense - do not actually exist has startled the world science >community. > >But Abhas Mitra, a theoretical physicist at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre >(BARC) in Mumbai, is not at all surprised. "I said more than a decade ago that >the Black Hole solutions found in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity >actually correspond to zero mass and are never formed. This implies that the >so-called Black Holes candidates must be Grey Holes or quasi-Black Holes," >Mitra told IANS. "Hawking is saying the same thing now." > >Mitra's papers, published in peer reviewed journals since 2000 - that still >remain unchallenged - maintain that there can be objects in the universe that >are quasi-static or "eternally collapsing" but not exactly Black Holes. "This >work was largely ignored by mainstream physicists as well as the media while >Hawking's recent two-page online paper saying exactly the same thing has >become hot international news," Mitra noted. > >He said this happened even though several American astrophysicists verified >his prediction that such quasi-Black Holes must have strong magnetic fields >unlike the real Black Holes, adding that even Harvard University issued a >press release to this effect in 2006. > >A Black Hole, according to its proponents, results from gravitational collapse >of a massive star after it runs out of fuel for nuclear fusion. A Black Hole >is all vacuum except for an infinitely dense central point called >"singularity," Mitra said. > >As the theory goes, a Black Hole is surrounded by an imaginary boundary called >"Event Horizon" that shuts everything within, allowing nothing - not even >light - to escape. An object crossing the Event Horizon gets forever trapped >and crushed at the singularity, destroying all the information about the >object as well. This directly conflicts with the laws of quantum physics that >say information can never be completely wiped out. This is the Black Hole >"information loss paradox". > >The Black Holes also pose a "Firewall Paradox" which arises from the claim >that Event Horizon, under the quantum theory, must actually be transformed >into a highly energetic region, or firewall, that would burn any approaching >object to a crisp. Although the firewall obeyed quantum rules, it flouted >Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, Mitra said. > >Hawking's latest paper attempts to resolve the Firewall Paradox by proposing >that gravitational collapse produces only an Apparent Horizon but not an Event >Horizon that is the hallmark of a true Black Hole. He said the absence of >Event Horizons means there are no Black Holes in the sense they are usually >visualized. Mitra said he has shown before that there can be no Event Horizon >by using the classical theory without invoking uncertain quantum physics as >Hawking has done. > >In fact, in a series of peer reviewed papers, Mitra has shown that no true >Black Holes can ever form. The so-called Black Holes observed by astronomers >are actually radiation pressure supported Eternally Collapsing Objects (ECOs). >These balls of fire are so hot that even neutrons and protons melt there and >whose outward radiation pressure balances the inward pull of gravity to arrest >a cat
Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
On 7 February 2014 11:17, Chris de Morsella wrote: > Perhaps, but also true that most ALS sufferers do not get such attention & > media adulation. > Perhaps because they aren't world famous scientists? I'm not sure what you expect here! I appreciate Mitra feeling bitter about this, but at least it should get his result more public awareness. I do find it very interesting, more so than any squabbling about who was first. Looks like Mitra has done a far better job anyway so that's what I'm really interested in. (Maybe now there will be an article for dummies like me in scientific american...) Also tbh I haven't really thought Hawking was doing much actual science for a long time, as an interested lay-person at least, despite him being called in on the odd well-publicised bet ... (plus his "imaginary time" idea seems to have dropped off the radar). He's good for the odd quote about the mind of God and fire in the equations... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
Mitra's theory seems to contradict Penrose's proof that any GR solution with a closed event horizon must contain a singularity. Before Penrose's theorem there was a widespread opinion among physicists that something like Mitra's picture must be true and that the singularities in solutions like Schwarzschild's were just due to the idealized perfect spherical symmetry or the idealized equations of state. But Penrose bypassed all that and made a purely topological argument. So Hawking isn't saying that Mitra is right, Hawking is rejecting Penrose's theorem on the grounds that it doesn't consider quantum effects. Brent On 2/6/2014 12:45 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Giving credit where credit is due. http://twocircles.net/2014feb05/indian_physicist_resolved_black_hole_paradox_much_hawking.html Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking By K.S.Jayaraman, IANS, Bangalore : A new paper released late last month in which famed British physicist Stephen Hawking contradicts his own theory and says that Black Holes - in the real sense - do not actually exist has startled the world science community. But Abhas Mitra, a theoretical physicist at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) in Mumbai, is not at all surprised. "I said more than a decade ago that the Black Hole solutions found in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity actually correspond to zero mass and are never formed. This implies that the so-called Black Holes candidates must be Grey Holes or quasi-Black Holes," Mitra told IANS. "Hawking is saying the same thing now." Mitra's papers, published in peer reviewed journals since 2000 - that still remain unchallenged - maintain that there can be objects in the universe that are quasi-static or "eternally collapsing" but not exactly Black Holes. "This work was largely ignored by mainstream physicists as well as the media while Hawking's recent two-page online paper saying exactly the same thing has become hot international news," Mitra noted. He said this happened even though several American astrophysicists verified his prediction that such quasi-Black Holes must have strong magnetic fields unlike the real Black Holes, adding that even Harvard University issued a press release to this effect in 2006. A Black Hole, according to its proponents, results from gravitational collapse of a massive star after it runs out of fuel for nuclear fusion. A Black Hole is all vacuum except for an infinitely dense central point called "singularity," Mitra said. As the theory goes, a Black Hole is surrounded by an imaginary boundary called "Event Horizon" that shuts everything within, allowing nothing - not even light - to escape. An object crossing the Event Horizon gets forever trapped and crushed at the singularity, destroying all the information about the object as well. This directly conflicts with the laws of quantum physics that say information can never be completely wiped out. This is the Black Hole "information loss paradox". The Black Holes also pose a "Firewall Paradox" which arises from the claim that Event Horizon, under the quantum theory, must actually be transformed into a highly energetic region, or firewall, that would burn any approaching object to a crisp. Although the firewall obeyed quantum rules, it flouted Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, Mitra said. Hawking's latest paper attempts to resolve the Firewall Paradox by proposing that gravitational collapse produces only an Apparent Horizon but not an Event Horizon that is the hallmark of a true Black Hole. He said the absence of Event Horizons means there are no Black Holes in the sense they are usually visualized. Mitra said he has shown before that there can be no Event Horizon by using the classical theory without invoking uncertain quantum physics as Hawking has done. In fact, in a series of peer reviewed papers, Mitra has shown that no true Black Holes can ever form. The so-called Black Holes observed by astronomers are actually radiation pressure supported Eternally Collapsing Objects (ECOs). These balls of fire are so hot that even neutrons and protons melt there and whose outward radiation pressure balances the inward pull of gravity to arrest a catastrophic collapse before any Black Hole or 'singularity' would actually form. "Incidentally, our Sun is also a ball of fire hot enough to melt atoms," Mitra noted. "Thus, the realization that there can be no true Black Holes and the so-called Black Holes are actually ECOs resolve both the Information and Firewall paradoxes," Mitra said. "Hawking has now arrived at the same conclusion from tentative arguments while our results are based on exact calculations and were published in a series of peer-reviewed papers over 13 years ago," Mitra
Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
Perhaps, but also true that most ALS sufferers do not get such attention & media adulation. On Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:49 PM, LizR wrote: Hawking gets the attention because he has ALS. It's not a tradeoff many would want to make. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
Hawking gets the attention because he has ALS. It's not a tradeoff many would want to make. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking
Giving credit where credit is due. http://twocircles.net/2014feb05/indian_physicist_resolved_black_hole_paradox_much_hawking.html Indian physicist resolved Black Hole paradox much before Hawking By K.S.Jayaraman, IANS, Bangalore : A new paper released late last month in which famed British physicist Stephen Hawking contradicts his own theory and says that Black Holes - in the real sense - do not actually exist has startled the world science community. But Abhas Mitra, a theoretical physicist at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) in Mumbai, is not at all surprised. "I said more than a decade ago that the Black Hole solutions found in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity actually correspond to zero mass and are never formed. This implies that the so-called Black Holes candidates must be Grey Holes or quasi-Black Holes," Mitra told IANS. "Hawking is saying the same thing now." Mitra's papers, published in peer reviewed journals since 2000 - that still remain unchallenged - maintain that there can be objects in the universe that are quasi-static or "eternally collapsing" but not exactly Black Holes. "This work was largely ignored by mainstream physicists as well as the media while Hawking's recent two-page online paper saying exactly the same thing has become hot international news," Mitra noted. He said this happened even though several American astrophysicists verified his prediction that such quasi-Black Holes must have strong magnetic fields unlike the real Black Holes, adding that even Harvard University issued a press release to this effect in 2006. A Black Hole, according to its proponents, results from gravitational collapse of a massive star after it runs out of fuel for nuclear fusion. A Black Hole is all vacuum except for an infinitely dense central point called "singularity," Mitra said. As the theory goes, a Black Hole is surrounded by an imaginary boundary called "Event Horizon" that shuts everything within, allowing nothing - not even light - to escape. An object crossing the Event Horizon gets forever trapped and crushed at the singularity, destroying all the information about the object as well. This directly conflicts with the laws of quantum physics that say information can never be completely wiped out. This is the Black Hole "information loss paradox". The Black Holes also pose a "Firewall Paradox" which arises from the claim that Event Horizon, under the quantum theory, must actually be transformed into a highly energetic region, or firewall, that would burn any approaching object to a crisp. Although the firewall obeyed quantum rules, it flouted Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, Mitra said. Hawking's latest paper attempts to resolve the Firewall Paradox by proposing that gravitational collapse produces only an Apparent Horizon but not an Event Horizon that is the hallmark of a true Black Hole. He said the absence of Event Horizons means there are no Black Holes in the sense they are usually visualized. Mitra said he has shown before that there can be no Event Horizon by using the classical theory without invoking uncertain quantum physics as Hawking has done. In fact, in a series of peer reviewed papers, Mitra has shown that no true Black Holes can ever form. The so-called Black Holes observed by astronomers are actually radiation pressure supported Eternally Collapsing Objects (ECOs). These balls of fire are so hot that even neutrons and protons melt there and whose outward radiation pressure balances the inward pull of gravity to arrest a catastrophic collapse before any Black Hole or 'singularity' would actually form. "Incidentally, our Sun is also a ball of fire hot enough to melt atoms," Mitra noted. "Thus, the realization that there can be no true Black Holes and the so-called Black Holes are actually ECOs resolve both the Information and Firewall paradoxes," Mitra said. "Hawking has now arrived at the same conclusion from tentative arguments while our results are based on exact calculations and were published in a series of peer-reviewed papers over 13 years ago," Mitra added. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
