Re: The TPP
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: You are aware of just how many corporations have been driven into bankruptcy by incompetent arrogant executive management? That is in complete agreement with Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap. Management that WAS NOT removed in those cases If things have gotten so bad that the corporation must file for bankruptcy then it really doesn't matter very much who's in management because the courts are making the important decisions. In 1997 Apple was loosing money so fast it could only operate for another 90 days and then it would have no choice but to file for bankruptcy, but instead management WAS removed and Steve Jobs stepped in as CEO. Today Apple is the most valuable company in the world. and modern history is littered with the carcasses of failed corporations, most driven under by competitors, but many destroyed by incompetent and even criminal executive leadership. That's true and that's why competence and moral executive leadership are attributes that have a positive survival value for corporations in business culture, unfortunately that is not true for government in political culture. Compared to what Stalin and Hitler and Mao Zedong did John D Rockefeller on his worst day was no more than naughty. the prevailing present practice in the global oligopoly where too big to fail is the principle guarantor of survival. Unfortunately sometimes that can happen but usually it does not. Look at the corporate giants of 35 years ago; AP was by far the largest retailer on planet earth, today I think they still exist someplace but I wouldn't swear to it. Where is Eastern Airlines or Pan American or Control Data or RCA or Studebaker or Packard or Woolworth or Polaroid? It sounds ridiculous now, but just a few years ago many said that IBM should be prevented from entering the PC market because it would completely dominate it, they said the same thing about ATT. Then they said Microsoft should be broken up because it was about to take over the world. Many of the giants of today like Apple, Amgen, Google, Oracle, Wal-Mart, Amazon, Intel, Dell, and Cisco were tiny or non existent 35 years ago. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: The TPP
Transnational corporate globalism, has not turned out to be all that good for freedom, quality of human life or the environment; it has however been great for the quarterly bottom line… and profit is the only value that seems valued these days. -Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR https://action.sumofus.org/a/tpp-final-talks/?akid=9154.7664677.NhaQ0s https://action.sumofus.org/a/tpp-final-talks/?akid=9154.7664677.NhaQ0sask=1rd=1sub=fwdt=2 ask=1rd=1sub=fwdt=2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The TPP
Spengler, in the decadence of the West says that societies are more like plants. 2015-01-29 22:05 GMT+01:00 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com: People worry that one day machines will take over, and we will become subservient slaves to their ends, that they will set the rules, control the government, and be above the law. We no longer need to fear that day because it already happened, quite some time ago. These machines are corporations: self-sustaining, evolving (in a Darwinian sense), hyper-intelligent, extremely-knowledgeable, immortal, transnational, entities which see and utilize humans as mere cogs in their own machinery. They are independently intelligent entities which we humans think we control, but we no more control them than any cell in our body controls our own personal actions. Jason On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:44 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Transnational corporate globalism, has not turned out to be all that good for freedom, quality of human life or the environment; it has however been great for the quarterly bottom line… and profit is the only value that seems valued these days. -Chris *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *LizR https://action.sumofus.org/a/tpp-final-talks/?akid=9154.7664677.NhaQ0sask=1rd=1sub=fwdt=2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The TPP
People worry that one day machines will take over, and we will become subservient slaves to their ends, that they will set the rules, control the government, and be above the law. We no longer need to fear that day because it already happened, quite some time ago. These machines are corporations: self-sustaining, evolving (in a Darwinian sense), hyper-intelligent, extremely-knowledgeable, immortal, transnational, entities which see and utilize humans as mere cogs in their own machinery. They are independently intelligent entities which we humans think we control, but we no more control them than any cell in our body controls our own personal actions. Jason On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:44 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Transnational corporate globalism, has not turned out to be all that good for freedom, quality of human life or the environment; it has however been great for the quarterly bottom line… and profit is the only value that seems valued these days. -Chris *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *LizR https://action.sumofus.org/a/tpp-final-talks/?akid=9154.7664677.NhaQ0sask=1rd=1sub=fwdt=2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The TPP
I agree these would exist even if not legally recognized as separate entities. However we should still view them as autonomous and potentially very powerful organisms which operate with their own set of morals which can be quite alien from our own. Nation States can be viewed similarly but I think they're more less adaptable, and perhaps better reflect the will and interests of its subcomponents. Jason On Thursday, January 29, 2015, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/29/2015 3:46 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Could Segey Brin and Larray Page wake up one day and decide to shutdown Google and succeed in doing so? I would find such a scenario unlikely to succeed in practice even if they were in their legal rights to do so. Even if they did succeed in closing the doors, a Google2, composed of Google's former employees, would quickly spring up. Sure, but that's because they were organized around certain technologies and products - not because the government granted them incorporation. Suppose there was no such thing as incorporation. There would still be large, somewhat autonomous self-serving organizations. There would just be fewer because they would have to be funded by investors willing to accept liability for the organization. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The TPP
From: Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 1:05 PM Subject: Re: The TPP People worry that one day machines will take over, and we will become subservient slaves to their ends, that they will set the rules, control the government, and be above the law. We no longer need to fear that day because it already happened, quite some time ago. These machines are corporations: self-sustaining, evolving (in a Darwinian sense), hyper-intelligent, extremely-knowledgeable, immortal, transnational, entities which see and utilize humans as mere cogs in their own machinery. They are independently intelligent entities which we humans think we control, but we no more control them than any cell in our body controls our own personal actions. But in practice corporations often do not behave intelligently by even the most forgiving definition of intelligent behavior -- corporations may have been accorded a pseudo eternal existence as legal entities (in some countries such as the US), but in practice they act as amplification engines for the edicts, desires and whims of the corporate officers. We humans -- or most of us at least -- may have been demoted to being considered and treated as fungible resources, but the corporation does not exist independently of the humans (e.g. the officers, the boards, the shareholders) controlling it. -Chris Jason On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:44 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Transnational corporate globalism, has not turned out to be all that good for freedom, quality of human life or the environment; it has however been great for the quarterly bottom line… and profit is the only value that seems valued these days.-Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR https://action.sumofus.org/a/tpp-final-talks/?akid=9154.7664677.NhaQ0sask=1rd=1sub=fwdt=2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The TPP
On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:28 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: -- *From:* Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com *To:* Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, January 29, 2015 1:05 PM *Subject:* Re: The TPP People worry that one day machines will take over, and we will become subservient slaves to their ends, that they will set the rules, control the government, and be above the law. We no longer need to fear that day because it already happened, quite some time ago. These machines are corporations: self-sustaining, evolving (in a Darwinian sense), hyper-intelligent, extremely-knowledgeable, immortal, transnational, entities which see and utilize humans as mere cogs in their own machinery. They are independently intelligent entities which we humans think we control, but we no more control them than any cell in our body controls our own personal actions. But in practice corporations often do not behave intelligently by even the most forgiving definition of intelligent behavior No human has anywhere near the knowledge, experience, expertise or competence to create an ipod. It takes an entity with the collective knowledge of many thousands, if not millions of years of experience, with the cumulative intelligence of all its individual employees subject-specific field expertise. They may operate more slowly than individual humans, and thus appear stupid, but a human would also appeared stupid when its behavior is analyzed on the timescales of its individual neurons. -- corporations may have been accorded a pseudo eternal existence as legal entities (in some countries such as the US), but in practice they act as amplification engines for the edicts, desires and whims of the corporate officers. Should any of those corporate officers substantially deviate as to threaten the survival of the corporation, the corporation will either removal that officer as a surgeon would remove a cancerous tumor, or it will die and leave more strongly self-preserving corporations to inherit its business. We humans -- or most of us at least -- may have been demoted to being considered and treated as fungible resources, but the corporation does not exist independently of the humans (e.g. the officers, the boards, the shareholders) controlling it. Neither does the brain exist independently of its component neurons, but my point is that the will of the corporation is something greater than the sum of the parts of the will of its individual employees and owners. It has its own will, goals, desires, survival instinct, motivations, etc. which are distinct from those of any one of its officers. Could Segey Brin and Larray Page wake up one day and decide to shutdown Google and succeed in doing so? I would find such a scenario unlikely to succeed in practice even if they were in their legal rights to do so. Even if they did succeed in closing the doors, a Google2, composed of Google's former employees, would quickly spring up. Jason -Chris Jason On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:44 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Transnational corporate globalism, has not turned out to be all that good for freedom, quality of human life or the environment; it has however been great for the quarterly bottom line… and profit is the only value that seems valued these days. -Chris *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *LizR https://action.sumofus.org/a/tpp-final-talks/?akid=9154.7664677.NhaQ0sask=1rd=1sub=fwdt=2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d
Re: The TPP
On 1/29/2015 3:46 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Could Segey Brin and Larray Page wake up one day and decide to shutdown Google and succeed in doing so? I would find such a scenario unlikely to succeed in practice even if they were in their legal rights to do so. Even if they did succeed in closing the doors, a Google2, composed of Google's former employees, would quickly spring up. Sure, but that's because they were organized around certain technologies and products - not because the government granted them incorporation. Suppose there was no such thing as incorporation. There would still be large, somewhat autonomous self-serving organizations. There would just be fewer because they would have to be funded by investors willing to accept liability for the organization. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: The TPP
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Resch On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:28 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: _ From: Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 1:05 PM Subject: Re: The TPP People worry that one day machines will take over, and we will become subservient slaves to their ends, that they will set the rules, control the government, and be above the law. We no longer need to fear that day because it already happened, quite some time ago. These machines are corporations: self-sustaining, evolving (in a Darwinian sense), hyper-intelligent, extremely-knowledgeable, immortal, transnational, entities which see and utilize humans as mere cogs in their own machinery. They are independently intelligent entities which we humans think we control, but we no more control them than any cell in our body controls our own personal actions. But in practice corporations often do not behave intelligently by even the most forgiving definition of intelligent behavior No human has anywhere near the knowledge, experience, expertise or competence to create an ipod. It takes an entity with the collective knowledge of many thousands, if not millions of years of experience, with the cumulative intelligence of all its individual employees subject-specific field expertise. They may operate more slowly than individual humans, and thus appear stupid, but a human would also appeared stupid when its behavior is analyzed on the timescales of its individual neurons. That is true of a plethora of cultural entities besides corporations as well. I broadly agree that culture is itself external to any given individual within a culture; it is an emergent social phenomena. There is nothing magical or unique about a corporation; it is similar in many ways to other cultural entities, which also emerge in social species, such as humans, or termites, or bees for that matter. In a broader sense the emergent patterns that also shape an environment, exist independently of the individual animals and plants, even if caused by them. They shape the existence of the individual living entities within the environment. A tree like network of animal paths that emerges, being shaped by a Darwinian type processes (such as network effect) itself becomes part of the locales individual organisms memory and habit, which in turn leads to more importance for that route, and guarantees the paths survival; the path channels and routes animals in 4-D spacetime, even though the path may have emerged from many animals hooves and paws. There is nothing particularly novel about a corporation vis a vis other large institutions. -- corporations may have been accorded a pseudo eternal existence as legal entities (in some countries such as the US), but in practice they act as amplification engines for the edicts, desires and whims of the corporate officers. Should any of those corporate officers substantially deviate as to threaten the survival of the corporation, the corporation will either removal that officer as a surgeon would remove a cancerous tumor, or it will die and leave more strongly self-preserving corporations to inherit its business. You are aware of just how many corporations have been driven into bankruptcy by incompetent arrogant executive management? Management that WAS NOT removed in those cases, and modern history is littered with the carcasses of failed corporations, most driven under by competitors, but many destroyed by incompetent and even criminal executive leadership. I fail to see any real evidence that the ideal you paint is actually the prevailing present practice in the global oligopoly where too big to fail is the principle guarantor of survival. We humans -- or most of us at least -- may have been demoted to being considered and treated as fungible resources, but the corporation does not exist independently of the humans (e.g. the officers, the boards, the shareholders) controlling it. Neither does the brain exist independently of its component neurons, but my point is that the will of the corporation is something greater than the sum of the parts of the will of its individual employees and owners. It has its own will, goals, desires, survival instinct, motivations, etc. which are distinct from those of any one of its officers. Could Segey Brin and Larray Page wake up one day and decide to shutdown Google and succeed in doing so? I would find such a scenario unlikely to succeed in practice even if they were in their legal rights to do so. Even if they did succeed in closing the doors, a Google2, composed of Google's former employees, would quickly spring up. Culture – which corporations are an example of – emerges in social
