Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?
Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. And the supreme monad is able to do all of the functions of a homunculus. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 01:04:34 Subject: Re: What must the perceiver be like? On Monday, September 10, 2012 7:00:22 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I think that the perceiver must be a lot like the creator in terms of its not being an endless regress of homunculi. There has to be either a stopping point or an entrance to the nonphysical from the physical, the unextended from the extended. Sure, perception is by definition an anchoring of orientation. It recapitulates singularity. I don't know that I would call it a creator, more of an everythingness - a totality. The idea of homunculi is exactly why I don't think a creator is possible. To me, if the universe requires a creator, than certainly the creator would require a creator too. Why wouldn't it? There can't be a stopping point unless that point is the notion of stopping itself...which I think is the case. I call it the Sole Entropy Well conjecture. The first signal can only be the perpetual readiness for release from itself. All creation arises as nested juxtapositions of the presence and absence of that readiness.The Sole Entropy Well is a perpetually plummeting level of entropy relative to the fractally spawning subroutines within it, subroutines which are also experiences of readiness for release from themselves who preceive the outermost routine as that which is eternally 'stopped' (since it is, relative to their spawning and subdividing of the moment of singularity into eternities). Craig Platonia's All is such an entity. Eh, Platonia is just a plug for incomplete understanding. If we can't make sense of the universe in terms of what we can access directly, then what's the point? Any explanation is as good as any other. Another might be the limit in terms of size of what a substance is. For you can't seem to get any smaller than Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which would be a stopping point. Leibniz speaks in terms of reflectors. Elsewhere, perhaps in Leibniz, the perceiver is characterized as being a unity, a whole, a point of focus. I agree. I came to the same conclusion before I had heard of monads. It must also be very wideband, to take in much at one glance. And allow info coming in from many directrions and angles at once. You are assuming the universe as a nothingness within which signals are generated. To realize the monad, I think you have to turn it over and see signals emerging as reconnections of temporarily partitions of everythingess. Maxwell's Demon also seems to be at least part of a candidate. And I have guessed that intelligence itself must be the perceiver. Intelligence may be an overrated human subroutine. Sensation and perception are a lot more popular, and for good reason I think. Craig C'mon materialists, knock yourselves out ! Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-09, 13:27:09 Subject: Re: Alice and Wittgenstein: Materialism, Functionalism, and Comp Hi Roger, In my view, the I is how any particular subjective experience refers to itself. I agree, you can't have consciousness without the I orientation, although the ability to conceive of oneself may not be necessary for consciousness. Consciousness requires only an experience of being, not necessarily an understanding of the experience of being or self or I. You could say that the term 'consciousness' refers specifically to self-awareness though, and I think it's ok to define the word that way. I'm more interested in the hard problem - so not human consciousness in particular but the faintest hint of awareness or sense as opposed to completely non-experiential unconsciousness. Craig On Saturday, September 8, 2012 10:56:51 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I seem to be a voice crying in the wilderness. So be it, but... When you say Here I present , how or where does the I fit into your philosophy ? You cannot have thinking or consciousness or intelligence or perception withut it. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/8/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-08, 09:10:48 Subject: Alice and Wittgenstein: Materialism, Functionalism, and Comp Here I present
Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?
Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?
Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, for the Bible asks us to love and forgive each other. Writing that would burn the Devil's fingers. So the koran seems to omit the part about loving and forgiving each other. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 08:52:16 Subject: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:10:46 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I can say that God IS created too. Here goes: God IS created. Whatever created the universe would have to also be the universe, or an arbitrary conceptual partition thereof. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, Hahahaha. Well that works out nicely for you then. No cognitive bias there. for the Bible asks us to love and forgive each other. Writing that would burn the Devil's fingers. Haha, why, because malicious predators aren't allowed to suggest that their prey be meek and mild? You don't think this message would come in handy in Bronze Age societies for establishing political order under a priesthood class on behalf of military leaders? Is the Devil a wolf that is forbidden to wear sheep's clothing? You think that the Devil could tempt and lie to people by announcing that he is the Devil? If I were the Devil, I would be most interested in recruiting priests, police, judges, teachers, politicians, businessmen, etc. What would be the point of tempting degenerate sinners who I already own? So the koran seems to omit the part about loving and forgiving each other. Does it? I haven't read the Koran. A brief Googling reveals: “…. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Qur’an, 64: 14] “Hold to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant.” [Qur’an, 7:199] “… They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Qur’an, 24:22] Have you traveled much Roger? I think it makes it easier to see how biased our minds are by default just from being in the same place around the same kinds of people. Craig Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net javascript: 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-09-11, 08:52:16 *Subject:* Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/81MGgWxT2k0J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?
Hi Craig Weinberg You're certainly welcome to your beliefs. OK, I was wrong about forgiving your neighbor, but I don't think that the Koran asks you to love your neighbor. Yes, I've travelled a lot. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 09:48:04 Subject: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:10:46 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I can say that God IS created too. Here goes: God IS created. Whatever created the universe would have to also be the universe, or an arbitrary conceptual partition thereof. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, Hahahaha. Well that works out nicely for you then. No cognitive bias there. for the Bible asks us to love and forgive each other. Writing that would burn the Devil's fingers. Haha, why, because malicious predators aren't allowed to suggest that their prey be meek and mild? You don't think this message would come in handy in Bronze Age societies for establishing political order under a priesthood class on behalf of military leaders? Is the Devil a wolf that is forbidden to wear sheep's clothing? You think that the Devil could tempt and lie to people by announcing that he is the Devil? If I were the Devil, I would be most interested in recruiting priests, police, judges, teachers, politicians, businessmen, etc. What would be the point of tempting degenerate sinners who I already own? So the koran seems to omit the part about loving and forgiving each other. Does it? I haven't read the Koran. A brief Googling reveals: ?. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.? [Qur?n, 64: 14] ?old to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant.? [Qur?n, 7:199] ? They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.? [Qur?n, 24:22] Have you traveled much Roger? I think it makes it easier to see how biased our minds are by default just from being in the same place around the same kinds of people. Craig Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 08:52:16 Subject: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/81MGgWxT2k0J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr
Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 10:06:18 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg You're certainly welcome to your beliefs. OK, I was wrong about forgiving your neighbor, but I don't think that the Koran asks you to love your neighbor. Worship Allah and join none with him (in worship); and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, the poor, the neighbor who is near of kin, the neighbor who is stranger, the companion by your side, ... [ Quran, chapter 4, verse 36] Loving your neighbor is not about sending Valentines to strangers, it's just about not being prejudiced. It's the timeless wisdom of the Golden Rule - 'don't forget that other people are just like you and you are just like them.'. It's basically a summary of Liberal Socialism. Craig Yes, I've travelled a lot. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net javascript: 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-09-11, 09:48:04 *Subject:* Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:10:46 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I can say that God IS created too. Here goes: God IS created. Whatever created the universe would have to also be the universe, or an arbitrary conceptual partition thereof. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, Hahahaha. Well that works out nicely for you then. No cognitive bias there. for the Bible asks us to love and forgive each other. Writing that would burn the Devil's fingers. Haha, why, because malicious predators aren't allowed to suggest that their prey be meek and mild? You don't think this message would come in handy in Bronze Age societies for establishing political order under a priesthood class on behalf of military leaders? Is the Devil a wolf that is forbidden to wear sheep's clothing? You think that the Devil could tempt and lie to people by announcing that he is the Devil? If I were the Devil, I would be most interested in recruiting priests, police, judges, teachers, politicians, businessmen, etc. What would be the point of tempting degenerate sinners who I already own? So the koran seems to omit the part about loving and forgiving each other. Does it? I haven't read the Koran. A brief Googling reveals: 锟斤拷. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.� [Qur锟�n, 64: 14] 锟�old to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant.� [Qur锟�n, 7:199] 锟斤拷 They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.� [Qur锟�n, 24:22] Have you traveled much Roger? I think it makes it easier to see how biased our minds are by default just from being in the same place around the same kinds of people. Craig Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg *Receiver:* everything-list *Time:* 2012-09-11, 08:52:16 *Subject:* Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?
Hi Craig Weinberg OK, yuh got me. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 10:36:50 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 10:06:18 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg You're certainly welcome to your beliefs. OK, I was wrong about forgiving your neighbor, but I don't think that the Koran asks you to love your neighbor. Worship Allah and join none with him (in worship); and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, the poor, the neighbor who is near of kin, the neighbor who is stranger, the companion by your side, ... [ Quran, chapter 4, verse 36] Loving your neighbor is not about sending Valentines to strangers, it's just about not being prejudiced. It's the timeless wisdom of the Golden Rule - 'don't forget that other people are just like you and you are just like them.'. It's basically a summary of Liberal Socialism. Craig Yes, I've travelled a lot. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 09:48:04 Subject: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:10:46 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I can say that God IS created too. Here goes: God IS created. Whatever created the universe would have to also be the universe, or an arbitrary conceptual partition thereof. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, Hahahaha. Well that works out nicely for you then. No cognitive bias there. for the Bible asks us to love and forgive each other. Writing that would burn the Devil's fingers. Haha, why, because malicious predators aren't allowed to suggest that their prey be meek and mild? You don't think this message would come in handy in Bronze Age societies for establishing political order under a priesthood class on behalf of military leaders? Is the Devil a wolf that is forbidden to wear sheep's clothing? You think that the Devil could tempt and lie to people by announcing that he is the Devil? If I were the Devil, I would be most interested in recruiting priests, police, judges, teachers, politicians, businessmen, etc. What would be the point of tempting degenerate sinners who I already own? So the koran seems to omit the part about loving and forgiving each other. Does it? I haven't read the Koran. A brief Googling reveals: ???. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [Qur? n, 64: 14] ? old to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant. [Qur? n, 7:199] ??? They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [Qur? n, 24:22] Have you traveled much Roger? I think it makes it easier to see how biased our minds are by default just from being in the same place around the same kinds of people. Craig Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 08:52:16 Subject: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ. To post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?
Hey, I didn't know either until I looked it up just now. I just know that there are good and bad people everywhere, under every form of government and ideology, religion and secular category. On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 10:43:45 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg OK, yuh got me. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net javascript: 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-09-11, 10:36:50 *Subject:* Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 10:06:18 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg You're certainly welcome to your beliefs. OK, I was wrong about forgiving your neighbor, but I don't think that the Koran asks you to love your neighbor. Worship Allah and join none with him (in worship); and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, the poor, the neighbor who is near of kin, the neighbor who is stranger, the companion by your side, ... [ Quran, chapter 4, verse 36] Loving your neighbor is not about sending Valentines to strangers, it's just about not being prejudiced. It's the timeless wisdom of the Golden Rule - 'don't forget that other people are just like you and you are just like them.'. It's basically a summary of Liberal Socialism. Craig Yes, I've travelled a lot. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg *Receiver:* everything-list *Time:* 2012-09-11, 09:48:04 *Subject:* Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:10:46 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I can say that God IS created too. Here goes: God IS created. Whatever created the universe would have to also be the universe, or an arbitrary conceptual partition thereof. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, Hahahaha. Well that works out nicely for you then. No cognitive bias there. for the Bible asks us to love and forgive each other. Writing that would burn the Devil's fingers. Haha, why, because malicious predators aren't allowed to suggest that their prey be meek and mild? You don't think this message would come in handy in Bronze Age societies for establishing political order under a priesthood class on behalf of military leaders? Is the Devil a wolf that is forbidden to wear sheep's clothing? You think that the Devil could tempt and lie to people by announcing that he is the Devil? If I were the Devil, I would be most interested in recruiting priests, police, judges, teachers, politicians, businessmen, etc. What would be the point of tempting degenerate sinners who I already own? So the koran seems to omit the part about loving and forgiving each other. Does it? I haven't read the Koran. A brief Googling reveals: 锟斤拷. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [Qur锟�n, 64: 14] 锟�old to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant. [Qur锟� n, 7:199] 锟斤拷 They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [Qur锟� n, 24:22] Have you traveled much Roger? I think it makes it easier to see how biased our minds are by default just from being in the same place around the same kinds of people. Craig Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg *Receiver:* everything-list *Time:* 2012-09-11, 08:52:16 *Subject:* Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities
Re: What must the perceiver be like?
On 11 Sep 2012, at 14:52, Craig Weinberg wrote: Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? You are right. God create the universe can be an explanation, or a progress toward an explanation only if the notion of God in use is conceptually simpler than the universe. I think Arithmetic (with a big A, it means the whole set of first order arithmetical true propositions, to fix the thing) is like that. Bruno What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: What must the perceiver be like?
On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:09, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, for the Bible asks us to love Lovable entities are loved without asking. Asking someone to love someone is giving someone an impossible task. and forgive each other. Only your victim can forgive you, and only if you can show sincere remorse. Writing that would burn the Devil's fingers. So the koran seems to omit the part about loving and forgiving each other. Hmm... you (unwillingly) supports the idea that Satan wrote the bible, I'm afraid. Those texts are human texts, and the ideas sleeping there have to be studied with some distances and cautiousness. Here you are just insulting many people unecessarily, and perhaps on a more complex point than you thought. Who really can *ask* for love, if only a non lovable entity? In some reality God send in Hell only, and all, those who ask for forgiveness, as it is a confession of sin. The protegorian virtue can be taught only by practices, illustrations and examples, and died through discourses, institutionalization, normativity, traditions (?), etc. (I am less sure for tradition, as it can incarnate spectacles and memories of examples, but too much repetitions make the sense sleepy). Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 08:52:16 Subject: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like? Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: What must the perceiver be like?
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 2:06:36 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Sep 2012, at 14:52, Craig Weinberg wrote: Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? You are right. God create the universe can be an explanation, or a progress toward an explanation only if the notion of God in use is conceptually simpler than the universe. I think Arithmetic (with a big A, it means the whole set of first order arithmetical true propositions, to fix the thing) is like that. I would agree with you Bruno, except that I don't see any possibility of Arithmetic needing to feel, but I can easily see why things that feel might need to relate to each other arithmetically. Numbers don't itch, but things that itch might want to keep track of how much it itches and how long by quantifying the experience. If we ourselves were not alive and having these experiences, I would agree that logically Arithmetic is necessary and sufficient to explain a universe (just not the universe that we live in). Craig Craig Bruno What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the idea of a Creator seem obvious if the Bible didn't exist? What if you found out that the Bible was actually written by people's demons who mixed truth with lies over centuries to cause confusion, oppression, and cruelty. If I were Satan, why wouldn't I tell people that I am God and make them write a book which causes fear, superstition, and misery (even if the cost is that it has some very good side effects as well)? Not to suggest that you doubt your faith, but logically, the idea of a Bible seems contrary to the purposes of a Creator who endows his creations with direct capacities to make sense of his creation (including themselves). Does he want us to know he exists or doesn't he? If so, why write a bunch of crazy ambiguous scriptures that vary from place to place? If not, why allow such blasphemous confusions to thrive? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/s2L3GTGAPpgJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/wzRrTJtmGSQJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
What must the perceiver be like?
Hi Craig Weinberg I think that the perceiver must be a lot like the creator in terms of its not being an endless regress of homunculi. There has to be either a stopping point or an entrance to the nonphysical from the physical, the unextended from the extended. Platonia's All is such an entity. Another might be the limit in terms of size of what a substance is. For you can't seem to get any smaller than Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which would be a stopping point. Leibniz speaks in terms of reflectors. Elsewhere, perhaps in Leibniz, the perceiver is characterized as being a unity, a whole, a point of focus. It must also be very wideband, to take in much at one glance. And allow info coming in from many directrions and angles at once. Maxwell's Demon also seems to be at least part of a candidate. And I have guessed that intelligence itself must be the perceiver. C'mon materialists, knock yourselves out ! Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-09, 13:27:09 Subject: Re: Alice and Wittgenstein: Materialism, Functionalism, and Comp Hi Roger, In my view, the I is how any particular subjective experience refers to itself. I agree, you can't have consciousness without the I orientation, although the ability to conceive of oneself may not be necessary for consciousness. Consciousness requires only an experience of being, not necessarily an understanding of the experience of being or self or I. You could say that the term 'consciousness' refers specifically to self-awareness though, and I think it's ok to define the word that way. I'm more interested in the hard problem - so not human consciousness in particular but the faintest hint of awareness or sense as opposed to completely non-experiential unconsciousness. Craig On Saturday, September 8, 2012 10:56:51 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I seem to be a voice crying in the wilderness. So be it, but... When you say Here I present , how or where does the I fit into your philosophy ? You cannot have thinking or consciousness or intelligence or perception withut it. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/8/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-08, 09:10:48 Subject: Alice and Wittgenstein: Materialism, Functionalism, and Comp Here I present another metaphor to encapsulate by view of the relation between consciousness, information, and physicality by demonstrating the inadequacy of functionalist, computationalist, and materialist models and how they paint over the hard problem of consciousness with a choice of two flavors of the easy problem. I came up with this thought exercise in response to this lecture: http://backdoorbroadcasting.net/2012/05/zoe-drayson-the-autonomy-of-the-mental-and-the-personalsubpersonal-distinction/ Consider Alice in Wonderland Let's say that Alice is trying to decide whether she can describe herself in terms of being composed of the syntax of the letters, words, and sentences of the story from which she emerges, or whether she is composed of the bleached and pressed wood pulp and ink that are considered page parts of the whole book. The former I would say corresponds to the functionalist view of Alice as roles and realizers, while the materialist view of Alice corresponds to the mereological parts and wholes. To extend the metaphor to computationalism I would make the distinction between functionalism and computationalism as the difference between the string of English words being equivalent to the story of Alice (functionalism) and the same thing but with the capacity for the string of words to translate themselves into any language. Materialism = pages in a book, Functionalism = English words in sentences (literature), Computationalism / Digital Functionalism = Amazon Kindle that translates literature into any language (customized literature). Although this distinction between comp and functionalism does, I think, make comp superior to either functionalism or materialism, it is still ultimately the wrong approach as it takes the story and characters for granted as an unexplained precipitate of linguistic roles and grammatical realizers. This is Searle, etc. The symbol grounding problem. In this respect, comp and functionalism are equivalent - both wrong in the same way and in the way that is orthogonal/perpendicular to the way that materialism is the wrong approach. What must be understood about consciousness, and about Alice, is that nothing means anything without the possibility of perception and participation to begin with in the universe. There is, to my way of thinking,
