Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Sunday 05 October 2003 01:20, Greg Meyer wrote: You should only need to set a reply-to at all if the address you want replies to go to is different than the address you are sending the message from. For instance, if I send a message to my project team asking for input, but I want all the replies to go to my secretary so that she can compile the feedback into one document. So, since your from and reply-to are the same, just clear the reply-to. Let's try ... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello zephod, On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:06:31 +0200, zephod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors): If you can point me where I can do this in kmail 1.5.3, I will be glad to do so. It seems that there is only a global Reply-to setting per identity, but not one for a specific mailing list. Maybe I have overlooked it? I have no knowledge of kmail: I have used it less than a few hours and didn`t like it, but unless you need other reply-to`s in different situations, you should be able to remove it entirely. Then any replies for direct e-mail will go to your `From`-address, but mailinglist reply-to`s won`t be disturbed by your address :-) Indeed you can, but have you noticed how long kdesu (and the gnome equivalent too) remain resident even if terminated? So I do wonder if even that is wise. I have. But I don't see the difficulty in that. You look at the positive side; perhaps you have a high-powered machine. I have only a P II at 351 MHz and kill anything I don`t need, plus: I question whether it is wise to keep kdesu running when my `su` needs have already finished. When I used kdesu in that fashion I always killed it afterwards. Lately I found it much cleaner to open a terminal window and use `su` only. But any often used root commands went into my /etc/sudoers and aliases for them into my ~/.bashrc. depending on what commands you put in sudoers, that might be a security problem as well. My /etc/sudoers contains specifically the ID`s of the users that may execute certain specific commands; I would never grant sudo access to ALL or to a group of users without distinction. Plus: I happen to know that the users that have this restricted sudo access are the same who have `su` access. It is just more convenient for the user to type in his own password rather than the root password. And a keylogger, if any, couldn`t learn the root password this way. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Encryption is an envelope - the contents are private. iD8DBQE/f8w1wC/zk+cxEdMRAs8uAJ9xeQ0CKBULALjrLq/sMycCpA4GdQCgiYOo Ax2zwQuI1syODuYwvuwbLWs= =IUFw -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
You should only need to set a reply-to at all if the address you want replies to go to is different than the address you are sending the message from. For instance, if I send a message to my project team asking for input, but I want all the replies to go to my secretary so that she can compile the feedback into one document. So, since your from and reply-to are the same, just clear the reply-to. After all these years I finally got to learn something new about mailing. Thanks for the tip ! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Sunday 05 October 2003 03:45 am, zephod wrote: So, since your from and reply-to are the same, just clear the reply-to. After all these years I finally got to learn something new about mailing. Thanks for the tip ! Thanks for being open and listening. -- Regards, /g Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read -Groucho Marx Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
You look at the positive side; perhaps you have a high-powered machine. I have only a P II at 351 MHz and kill anything I don`t need, plus: I question whether it is wise to keep kdesu running when my `su` needs have already finished. I don't think a 40 KB process which does a wait4 and select every second gives much overhead, even if you count the contextswitch time. From the perspective of security it is also not recommended. You got me thinking about it, and I came up with the following: Given the fact that the number of bugs in a program is directly proportional to the number of lines of code written, if you take this one step further you have to conclude that the number of security holes is also proportional to the number of processes which you are running or allowed to run. In other words I agree that it is good practice not to run processes which are completely useless. regards, Z. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Saturday 04 October 2003 00:05, Bill Mullen wrote: And to refresh my memory, why is it a bad idea to login as root in KDE? These days I do a lot of root changes,it's easier for me to stay for a while in KDE as root than to type my root password everytime I want to do some root job as a regular user. If allways put a small script in ~/.kde/Autostart like this: - #!/bin/bash kdesu -c konsole - This way, when I login as a regular user, I only login once as root and do everything which requires root priviledges from konsole. It has the advantage that you can open extra terminal sessions (ctrl-alt-n) without having to give your root password over and over again. Alternatively you could make it a link on you desktop. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Friday 03 Oct 2003 11:05 pm, Bill Mullen wrote: And to refresh my memory, why is it a bad idea to login as root in KDE? These days I do a lot of root changes,it's easier for me to stay for a while in KDE as root than to type my root password everytime I want to do some root job as a regular user. This has to be the weakest (and, coincidentally, the most common) excuse given for running in the GUI as root, and it's just plain wrong. If you are logged in as root, you are incapable of testing whether or not the change you made will work as you expect it to when running as a user; all you can be certain of at that point is that it works when running as root. You still need to logout, and login as a user, to complete your testing. And if you don't like to use the command line, use File Manager, Super User. Shut it down when you've finished, but you can safely leave it open until you have finished and tested what you are doing. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
Am Freitag, 3. Oktober 2003 21:46 schrieb vatbier: Sometimes I log in into KDE as root. When I, being logged in as root, use Konqueror to surf on the internet, I notice a lot of timeout errors (trying do to a query search in Mandrakesoft Bugzilla always timed out). In KCC:Network:Preferences I saw that timeout settings of 2 seconds (instead of the default 15,10,20,600 seconds) were saved into /root/.kde/share/config/kioslaverc That kioslaverc file for root came out of directory /usr/share/mdk/kde/root-interface/ . I guess that root-interface directory is full of KDE settings specifically for root. Why are those timeout settings set to 2 seconds for root in KDE, for security reasons or to hinder people at staying too long logged in as root in KDE? Are there any other of those annoying settings that prevent easy use of logging in as root into KDE? And to refresh my memory, why is it a bad idea to login as root in KDE? These days I do a lot of root changes,it's easier for me to stay for a while in KDE as root than to type my root password everytime I want to do some root job as a regular user. vatbier Some stuff to read: http://www.mandrakeuser.org/docs/admin/index.html#br Steffen Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello zephod, Would you please be so kind to fix your Reply-to setting ? As it is now it sends a reply only to you; not to the list. Thanks! On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:45:15 +0200, zephod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors): If allways put a small script in ~/.kde/Autostart like this: - #!/bin/bash kdesu -c konsole - This way, when I login as a regular user, I only login once as root and do everything which requires root priviledges from konsole. It has the advantage that you can open extra terminal sessions (ctrl-alt-n) without having to give your root password over and over again. Alternatively you could make it a link on you desktop. Indeed you can, but have you noticed how long kdesu (and the gnome equivalent too) remain resident even if terminated? So I do wonder if even that is wise. When I used kdesu in that fashion I always killed it afterwards. Lately I found it much cleaner to open a terminal window and use `su` only. But any often used root commands went into my /etc/sudoers and aliases for them into my ~/.bashrc. HTH Regards, =Dick Gevers= . Mandrake visibility? See headers... . -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Encryption is an envelope - the contents are private. iD8DBQE/fp2dwC/zk+cxEdMRAtikAJ4qnBppi+32gmfdp97i1GEThqsbQQCZAdvT Fhe2Hc+lk2bTAqGp7Pzh/yk= =jLn1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 02:50 am, Anne Wilson wrote: [..] And if you don't like to use the command line, use File Manager, Super User. Shut it down when you've finished, but you can safely leave it open until you have finished and tested what you are doing. Anne Of course in 9.2 you'll have to *make* FM Super User mode first. It seems to have been disappeared. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 09:30:21 up 13 days, 22:51, 1 user, load average: 0.04, 0.21, 0.53 Shick's Law: There is no problem a good miracle can't solve. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fugwG11CaRuZZSIRAtvAAJ9MBNP6xUC+PSUtnxnduNuzJSY4JQCfZ6gm qzf0CJIEBUoYQK4sw2p2EeU= =8jYI -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
Charlie M. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 02:50 am, Anne Wilson wrote: [..] And if you don't like to use the command line, use File Manager, Super User. Shut it down when you've finished, but you can safely leave it open until you have finished and tested what you are doing. Anne Of course in 9.2 you'll have to *make* FM Super User mode first. It seems to have been disappeared. Charlie I don't know how the menu item, FM Super User mode, will be resolved but you can always press alt-F2 and type in kdesu konqueror to run konqueror as root, after supplying the root password, or kdesu anything to run anything as root. At least, kdebase must be installed as kdesu is part of that. Rolf Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Saturday 04 Oct 2003 4:32 pm, Charlie M. wrote: October 4, 2003 02:50 am, Anne Wilson wrote: [..] And if you don't like to use the command line, use File Manager, Super User. Shut it down when you've finished, but you can safely leave it open until you have finished and tested what you are doing. Anne Of course in 9.2 you'll have to *make* FM Super User mode first. It seems to have been disappeared. Charlie I hope not - it's a strong argument that it isn't necessary to log in as root. CLI puts off many newbies. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:32:52 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 02:50 am, Anne Wilson wrote: [..] And if you don't like to use the command line, use File Manager, Super User. Shut it down when you've finished, but you can safely leave it open until you have finished and tested what you are doing. Anne Of course in 9.2 you'll have to *make* FM Super User mode first. It seems to have been disappeared. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 09:30:21 up 13 days, 22:51, 1 user, load average: 0.04, 0.21, 0.53 Shick's Law: There is no problem a good miracle can't solve. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fugwG11CaRuZZSIRAtvAAJ9MBNP6xUC+PSUtnxnduNuzJSY4JQCfZ6gm qzf0CJIEBUoYQK4sw2p2EeU= =8jYI -END PGP SIGNATURE- Seems a lot of stuff disappeared from 9.2 default desktop. If this is another good for the simple user kind of thing, should I be insulted? I thought I only felt simple. Lee -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Saturday 04 Oct 2003 4:46 pm, Rolf Pedersen wrote: Charlie M. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 02:50 am, Anne Wilson wrote: [..] And if you don't like to use the command line, use File Manager, Super User. Shut it down when you've finished, but you can safely leave it open until you have finished and tested what you are doing. Anne Of course in 9.2 you'll have to *make* FM Super User mode first. It seems to have been disappeared. Charlie I don't know how the menu item, FM Super User mode, will be resolved but you can always press alt-F2 and type in kdesu konqueror to run konqueror as root, after supplying the root password, or kdesu anything to run anything as root. At least, kdebase must be installed as kdesu is part of that. Rolf That I didn't know. Thanks, Rolf Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 08:59, Lee Wiggers wrote: On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:32:52 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 02:50 am, Anne Wilson wrote: [..] And if you don't like to use the command line, use File Manager, Super User. Shut it down when you've finished, but you can safely leave it open until you have finished and tested what you are doing. Anne Of course in 9.2 you'll have to *make* FM Super User mode first. It seems to have been disappeared. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 09:30:21 up 13 days, 22:51, 1 user, load average: 0.04, 0.21, 0.53 Shick's Law: There is no problem a good miracle can't solve. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fugwG11CaRuZZSIRAtvAAJ9MBNP6xUC+PSUtnxnduNuzJSY4JQCfZ6gm qzf0CJIEBUoYQK4sw2p2EeU= =8jYI -END PGP SIGNATURE- Seems a lot of stuff disappeared from 9.2 default desktop. If this is another good for the simple user kind of thing, should I be insulted? I thought I only felt simple. Lee Lee what really happened was that kde has been broken apart (ala debian SuSE and everyone but RH) So that individual applications in KDE can now be upgraded instead of having to download the entire KDE lump. (56k users will find this to be a big help.) Some of the things that used to be in kdebase, (Like Konsole) are no longer default. This point as to what is or isn't default is still being debated. If you are missing something do urpmf [application name] to find it's new package James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 09:46 am, Rolf Pedersen wrote: [..] I don't know how the menu item, FM Super User mode, will be resolved but you can always press alt-F2 and type in kdesu konqueror to run konqueror as root, after supplying the root password, or kdesu anything to run anything as root. At least, kdebase must be installed as kdesu is part of that. Rolf Thanks for stating the blatantly obvious when the merely obvious would suffice. (-: Rolf, I know how to work around it, you know how to do it, what does Mr./Mrs./Ms. J. Sixpack do when s/he's told to use that utility and it ain't there? You can explain until you're blue but the average user is just going to see it as confirmation of; and detractors will use it as more fuel for, the Linux is too hard! FUD fire. In my opinion it's just another example of my stated objection to developers having *anything* to do with deciding user interfaces or GUI functionality. The so called ergonomics of a distribution. The distance between the species is far too great. A desktop manager is the ultimate in GUI functionality and 99% of what a newbie will base their opinions of a distribution on are rooted in that. Since in this case it is lacking a few expected functions that opinion will probably be rather low for 9.2. Uber-geek workarounds, or even regular geek workarounds, are not the correct direction to push the desktop managers. _Any_ desktop manager. It's a sad state of affairs IMHO. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 10:28:53 up 13 days, 23:49, 1 user, load average: 0.02, 0.20, 0.35 The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy. - -- Louisiana governor Edwin Edwards -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fvn5G11CaRuZZSIRAth/AKCSPUrxx1T8OHy2a4LSS5b24WOImwCeOPnD OzXka2lM5R89yWz2Tf3kenc= =dPaJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Saturday 04 October 2003 12:14, Dick Gevers wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello zephod, Would you please be so kind to fix your Reply-to setting ? As it is now it sends a reply only to you; not to the list. Thanks! If you can point me where I can do this in kmail 1.5.3, I will be glad to do so. It seems that there is only a global Reply-to setting per identity, but not one for a specific mailing list. Maybe I have overlooked it? Indeed you can, but have you noticed how long kdesu (and the gnome equivalent too) remain resident even if terminated? So I do wonder if even that is wise. I have. But I don't see the difficulty in that. When I used kdesu in that fashion I always killed it afterwards. Lately I found it much cleaner to open a terminal window and use `su` only. But any often used root commands went into my /etc/sudoers and aliases for them into my ~/.bashrc. depending on what commands you put in sudoers, that might be a security problem as well. But still better than running the KDE as root offcourse ;) HTH Regards, =Dick Gevers= . Mandrake visibility? See headers... . -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Encryption is an envelope - the contents are private. iD8DBQE/fp2dwC/zk+cxEdMRAtikAJ4qnBppi+32gmfdp97i1GEThqsbQQCZAdvT Fhe2Hc+lk2bTAqGp7Pzh/yk= =jLn1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
Charlie M. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 09:46 am, Rolf Pedersen wrote: [..] I don't know how the menu item, FM Super User mode, will be resolved but you can always press alt-F2 and type in kdesu konqueror to run konqueror as root, after supplying the root password, or kdesu anything to run anything as root. At least, kdebase must be installed as kdesu is part of that. Rolf Thanks for stating the blatantly obvious when the merely obvious would suffice. (-: Rolf, I know how to work around it, you know how to do it, what does Mr./Mrs./Ms. J. Sixpack do when s/he's told to use that utility and it ain't there? You can explain until you're blue but the average user is just going to see it as confirmation of; and detractors will use it as more fuel for, the Linux is too hard! FUD fire. In my opinion it's just another example of my stated objection to developers having *anything* to do with deciding user interfaces or GUI functionality. The so called ergonomics of a distribution. The distance between the species is far too great. A desktop manager is the ultimate in GUI functionality and 99% of what a newbie will base their opinions of a distribution on are rooted in that. Since in this case it is lacking a few expected functions that opinion will probably be rather low for 9.2. Uber-geek workarounds, or even regular geek workarounds, are not the correct direction to push the desktop managers. _Any_ desktop manager. It's a sad state of affairs IMHO. Charlie Well, that's not exactly how I see it. Having never used the menu item for File Manager Super User mode, I can see where someone else might have more of an attachment to it. There are other expected behaviors, such as being able to decline installation of a bootloader at install when I simply want to add an entry to an existing bootloader, that have caused me more personal discomfiture when they have disappeared. However, my overall perception is that virtually all the software in the distro is in a fairly rapid state of flux, as there is plenty of room for improvement, and further demands are placed on developers by the evolution of hardware. Having tried gentoo, debian, slackware, suse, et al, I appreciate the work that Mandrake have done to produce and maintain this, relatively, easy to use distribution out of thousands of disparate and changing softwares. One of the strengths of Linux is the variety of choices it provides. Considering that change is inevitable in such an environment, it is better to concentrate on the power and flexibility of choice than get stuck on how things used to work. For someone who doesn't even know where the menu is, for example, it is almost easier to describe how to use alt-F2 than how to get to Applications File Tools File Manager-Super User Mode. The changes can cause some stress but I don't think that is, necessarily, the developers' fault. A user's expectations have much to do with stress and, as long as the functionality is attainable, education about choices and sensible expectations can go a lot further to reduce stress than trying to change what are, in many cases, pragmatic consequences of development. Like I said, different procedures are going to have a different importance to different people. It's easy to be cool about something not being there anymore when you have never used it and I don't know for a fact that su mode won't be there when 9.2 comes out. Maybe it was just an oversight. There are probably not sufficient personnel, at present, for there to be a separate ergonomics department ( http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=mandrake-cookerm=105661890523522w=2 ) so I think they are doing the best they can with what they have. At any rate, changes are going to happen, some way of doing something or another will disappear for someone or another, and it's best to be flexible. Rolf Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [..] October 4, 2003 12:20 pm, Rolf Pedersen wrote: Well, that's not exactly how I see it. Having never used the menu item for File Manager Super User mode, I can see where someone else might have more of an attachment to it. There are other expected behaviors, such as being able to decline installation of a bootloader at install when I simply want to add an entry to an existing bootloader, that have caused me more personal discomfiture when they have disappeared. It's just a tool Rolf. I know that. I can work around it and even add a clickable icon on the person's desktop with a name that will make sense to them. That usually becomes strike one for me and Mandrake Linux though. I modified their system, mild panic and moderate paranoia starts there. rant mode I understand your position, hell I can understand why things are done the way they are most of the time. I'll even agree with the complaint about the behaviour of the bootloader since it's bitten me on the ass a few times. But Has anybody officially decided what the Mandrake Linux focus going forward will be? Is it Corporate desktop, home user desktop, server, or something else? That is basically a rhetorical question since it really doesn't matter. For _any_ user coming from the Windows world their entire experience has been point'n'click. That's about all Windows System Administrators have ever learned in most cases. I've read posts in various fora that sysadmins need application/utility X because it's the way they learned to do their jobs in MS network environments. Users shouldn't be able to xxx or yyy because the sysadmin doesn't want them to zzz. If it's a a privately owned box with one user (the owner) who the hell says that individual shouldn't be allowed to break the damned thing any way and all they like? Fine and who the devil cares? Anyone calling themselves a system administrator should be able to do anything they need with whatever tools are available because, to my mind, that's what the job *is.* The problem is some of us find the only way to convince users to try Mandrake Linux, thereby possibly exposing their employers to the distribution, is to help them install it and use it at home. They can lobby for the switch at work if they like the experience. I don't deal with corporations or government. One on one, myself and users. For most of these Windows refugees you've lost as soon as you tell them to open a terminal, or open the run dialogue. It's suddenly too hard and they don't hear a damned thing you say after that. /rant mode However, my overall perception is that virtually all the software in the distro is in a fairly rapid state of flux, as there is plenty of room for improvement, and further demands are placed on developers by the evolution of hardware. Having tried gentoo, debian, slackware, suse, et al, I appreciate the work that Mandrake have done to produce and maintain this, relatively, easy to use distribution out of thousands of disparate and changing softwares. I'm not belittling anything that's been done by Mandrake or the developers and volunteers. I'm saying that my hobby is convincing people to try something that most of the time scares the hell out of them; and having their fears realized before they get to the exploration of the system structure defeats the purpose far too often. I have nearly always been able to get someone to click an icon and type the administrator password to learn what the directory groupings and names look like/are. If I start talking anything more geekish than that these people go TILT. Then they run. One of the strengths of Linux is the variety of choices it provides. Considering that change is inevitable in such an environment, it is better to concentrate on the power and flexibility of choice than get stuck on how things used to work. For someone who doesn't even know where the menu is, for example, it is almost easier to describe how to use alt-F2 than how to get to Applications File Tools File Manager-Super User Mode. I don't entirely disagree but see above. What I posted isn't complaints, it's observations from bitter experience. The changes can cause some stress but I don't think that is, necessarily, the developers' fault. A user's expectations have much to do with stress and, as long as the functionality is attainable, education about choices and sensible expectations can go a lot further to reduce stress than trying to change what are, in many cases, pragmatic consequences of development. But you'll never educate most people because they just want a tool to use. They don't want to be educated, and stop listening as soon as anything of that nature enters the conversation. Like I said, different procedures are going to have a different importance to different people. It's easy to be cool about something not being there anymore when you have
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
Charlie M. schrieb am Sat, 04 Oct 2003 13:16:01 -0600: If I start talking anything more geekish than that these people go TILT. Then they run. But you'll never educate most people because they just want a tool to use. They don't want to be educated, and stop listening as soon as anything of that nature enters the conversation. It's the old difference between the 2 guys who had to study a certain physical law in order to solve a problem. 1. guy goes to the library and asks for an english translation of the original book written in German. There is none. He asks a German friend to translate the chapters about the part which is interesting for him. He receives the translation, reads the necessary parts and goes back to his original task and solves the problem. 2. guy goes to language school, learns German and then reads the entire book in the original version. Then he goes back to his task. Lets not look at the efficiency or the necessary timespan for the second guy to learn the language. They both have the same task at hand but totally different interests. Next week I'm going to meet a couple of young people. One guy asked me where he could get some info about Linux. He and his friends are fed up with some M$ issues and would like to try something else. So, as they all are living in the same town as I do, we are going to meet next week and I'll give them a short overview. I'll take my laptop with me and will show some flashy things (Have to install xmms and mplayer until then!). A pity I can't have the new 9.2 by then. They mentioned Red Hat and SuSE as the distributions they heard of. I'll show them Mandrake. Let's see what comes out of it. And if your theory about the Geek! crying users at the sight of a CLI is really true. wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 02:29 pm, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: Charlie M. schrieb am Sat, 04 Oct 2003 13:16:01 -0600: If I start talking anything more geekish than that these people go TILT. Then they run. But you'll never educate most people because they just want a tool to use. They don't want to be educated, and stop listening as soon as anything of that nature enters the conversation. It's the old difference between the 2 guys who had to study a certain physical law in order to solve a problem. 1. guy goes to the library and asks for an english translation of the original book written in German. There is none. He asks a German friend to translate the chapters about the part which is interesting for him. He receives the translation, reads the necessary parts and goes back to his original task and solves the problem. 2. guy goes to language school, learns German and then reads the entire book in the original version. Then he goes back to his task. Lets not look at the efficiency or the necessary timespan for the second guy to learn the language. They both have the same task at hand but totally different interests. Next week I'm going to meet a couple of young people. One guy asked me where he could get some info about Linux. He and his friends are fed up with some M$ issues and would like to try something else. So, as they all are living in the same town as I do, we are going to meet next week and I'll give them a short overview. I'll take my laptop with me and will show some flashy things (Have to install xmms and mplayer until then!). A pity I can't have the new 9.2 by then. They mentioned Red Hat and SuSE as the distributions they heard of. I'll show them Mandrake. Let's see what comes out of it. And if your theory about the Geek! crying users at the sight of a CLI is really true. wobo I hope they don't run. I'll be modifying my presentations and methods to try and overcome some of the natural resistance I expect to encounter. I recognize that the onus is on me to make things appear as easy as they actually are, and I've already gone back to the pattern that forces the potential refugee to ask more than once before I'll do anything more than provide links to information. If they don't have even that much perseverance they probably would never switch anyway. Unfortunately it seems there's a lot of Linux is cool so get somebody to show going on around here. Weeding out the dilettantes like me and the people that are actually willing to invest some time and skull sweat is becoming a problem. (-: As long as I'm not causing people to run screaming into the night, I guess I'm not doing the Mandrake cause any harm. Regards; Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 14:37:43 up 14 days, 3:58, 1 user, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.08 The six great gifts of an Irish girl are beauty, soft voice, sweet speech, wisdom, needlework, and chastity. -- Theodore Roosevelt, 1907 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fzGxG11CaRuZZSIRAtCFAKCEjWr5UTM1R1XxsUVM/OEUOrlG8ACgjDoV 5Oy0NNVinMrQUVrTKL/H3Iw= =5jX7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
Charlie M. schrieb am Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:46:41 -0600: I hope they don't run. I'll be modifying my presentations and methods to try and overcome some of the natural resistance I expect to encounter. I recognize that the onus is on me to make things appear as easy as they actually are, and I've already gone back to the pattern that forces the potential refugee to ask more than once before I'll do anything more than provide links to information. They have asked and my first question was: Why do you want to know about Linux? so that's how I know that their cause is primarily getting away from Windows. I'll ask them, what they want to do and then I show them a desktop and ask them to do what they want. Let's see how far I get. It will not be a presentation but more of an opportunity for them to do some normal tasks on a system they never saw before. wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Saturday 04 October 2003 14:06, zephod wrote: Would you please be so kind to fix your Reply-to setting ? As it is now it sends a reply only to you; not to the list. Thanks! If you can point me where I can do this in kmail 1.5.3, I will be glad to do so. It seems that there is only a global Reply-to setting per identity, but not one for a specific mailing list. Maybe I have overlooked it? You should only need to set a reply-to at all if the address you want replies to go to is different than the address you are sending the message from. For instance, if I send a message to my project team asking for input, but I want all the replies to go to my secretary so that she can compile the feedback into one document. So, since your from and reply-to are the same, just clear the reply-to. -- /g Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read -Groucho Marx Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
Sometimes I log in into KDE as root. When I, being logged in as root, use Konqueror to surf on the internet, I notice a lot of timeout errors (trying do to a query search in Mandrakesoft Bugzilla always timed out). In KCC:Network:Preferences I saw that timeout settings of 2 seconds (instead of the default 15,10,20,600 seconds) were saved into /root/.kde/share/config/kioslaverc That kioslaverc file for root came out of directory /usr/share/mdk/kde/root-interface/ . I guess that root-interface directory is full of KDE settings specifically for root. Why are those timeout settings set to 2 seconds for root in KDE, for security reasons or to hinder people at staying too long logged in as root in KDE? Are there any other of those annoying settings that prevent easy use of logging in as root into KDE? And to refresh my memory, why is it a bad idea to login as root in KDE? These days I do a lot of root changes,it's easier for me to stay for a while in KDE as root than to type my root password everytime I want to do some root job as a regular user. vatbier __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT) vatbier [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: And to refresh my memory, why is it a bad idea to login as root in KDE? These days I do a lot of root changes,it's easier for me to stay for a while in KDE as root than to type my root password everytime I want to do some root job as a regular user. I don't even know where to begin. Let's put it this way, you could seriously hose your system, and most likely will at some point, running KDE as root. The trouble with root is that it *will do anything you say, without question, warning or complaint*, including delete, overwrite or otherwise mangle important system files. Further, browsing the web as root is akin to (using my favourite sick analogy) bending over to pick up the soap in the prison shower. You are asking for trouble. You should never be root unless you need to be, and if it is too much of an inconvenience to type your root password, with all due respect, you are using the wrong OS. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ The state of innocence contains the germs of all future sin. -- Alexandre Arnoux, Etudes et caprices Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] ML9.1: Why did Mandrake put restrictions on using KDE as root? (Konqueror timeout errors)
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, vatbier wrote: Sometimes I log in into KDE as root. When I, being logged in as root, use Konqueror to surf on the internet Like HaywireMac, I just don't know where to begin to explain how unwise this practice is ... especially the surfing part; you are giving an app that may or may not be entirely bug-free (and which uses plugins, which also may or may not be entirely bug-free) unlimited power to make *any* change it attempts, to any part of your system, and you then connect that app directly to foreign and untrusted systems which you *know* full well contain code to which that app will respond automatically. Incredible! Makes running with scissors look pretty safe, by comparison ... :) And to refresh my memory, why is it a bad idea to login as root in KDE? These days I do a lot of root changes,it's easier for me to stay for a while in KDE as root than to type my root password everytime I want to do some root job as a regular user. This has to be the weakest (and, coincidentally, the most common) excuse given for running in the GUI as root, and it's just plain wrong. If you are logged in as root, you are incapable of testing whether or not the change you made will work as you expect it to when running as a user; all you can be certain of at that point is that it works when running as root. You still need to logout, and login as a user, to complete your testing. OTOH, if you are logged in as you should be (as a user), and you open a terminal, su to root, and do your configuration from there (or use MCC), the only thing on the desktop that is running as root is that terminal and any apps that are spawned from it; everything else is running as the user, and effective testing of your configuration changes can be immediate. And as for repeatedly typing the root password, the sudo app can help there. So, don't even *try* to sell us on the notion that this is somehow easier for you ... the only way that it *is* easier is that it's easier to retain your old Windoze way of thinking, rather than adjust to a different OS and the time-tested *nix sysadmin practices which have worked for decades. Just my $0.02USD ... -- Bill Mullen [EMAIL PROTECTED] MA, USA RLU #270075 MDK 8.1 9.0 The engineer is neither optimist nor pessimist. He sees the proverbial half-full/empty glass and says, The glass is twice as big as there is any need for it to be. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
