Re: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
I built it all last night on my celeron 333 laptop with 96MB ram. It did take a while but it wasn't bad and it did all build without incident. The damn libs are huge, however. Space was already a premium and moving the libs to /usr/local/lib/pwlib consumed all my remaining hdd space (except for a paltry 60 k). If you happen to know...after building, how much of pwlib and gatekeeper can you delete? With gatekeeper, I assume I could dump everything except the binary. With pwlib, I assume everything except the lib/ and, maybe, the include/? I only dismiss it, not for its POTENTIAL, but for its practice. PC-to-PC is what it is geared for, sans special equipment. Those I would call do not sit at their computers 24 hrs/day and they do not run their computers 24 hrs/day. The phone is the best option and for that, thus far, one requires special addon equipment, regardless of what openh323 software one uses. It would be nice to see a non-hardware based answer. It would not be optimal but it would be cheaper and easier for many people. On Monday 05 February 2001 16:59, Tricia C. Sesar wrote: This seems to be a hot topic tonight. Kinda ironic, as I was just starting to get the bug into my head about this. Here are some facts: The technology is available. Below is a snippet from the VoIP HOW-TO (which some of you have been quick to dismiss tonight, without really understanding what you are reading): "5.1 Hardware requirement To create a little VoIP system you need the following hardware: 1.PC 386 or more 2.Sound card, full duplex capable 3.a network card or connection to internet or other kind of interface to allow communication between 2 PCs All that has to be present twice to simulate a standard communication. [...] Phonepatch, able to solve problems behind a NAT firewall. It simply allows users (external or internal) calling from a web page (which is reachable from [...] http://speakfreely.org Never used it. But it is only pc-to-pc, which some of you were opposed to. If, your top-end goal is to make calls, using the Internet to replace (at least, in part) your PSTN, and the benefits of a hardware solution are worth the $$$ to you, then check these out: http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/VoIP-HOWTO.html http://www.linuxjack.com http://linuxtelephony.org http://www.openh323.org http://www.opentelecom.org/ [...] -- Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.
Re[2]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
"Praedor Tempus" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to see a non-hardware based answer. It would not be optimal but it would be cheaper and easier for many people. Um, I'm confused. We need to connect from the internet using ip to the PSTN using analog/voice. Using software only I know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the bits across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) While perusing this thread, I considered the idea of a network of folks who had IP-to-PSTN gateways that would allow others to use them for free, but the problem there is - I have to either pay for a second phone line so I can let other people use it for free, or I have to allow strangers to tie up my primary phone line at random times for unknown periods while strangers use it! Hmm. How about this - first, we'll assume business rates because the phone company would want to stick us for the higher rate - lets say thats $45/month (high, I hope!). Lets assume usage is 10% of the time, and we want to break even at that usage rate. For the sake of argument, we'll use a 28-day month (I'm trying to find the least you can reasonably charge to break even here, so I'm trying to estimate high on cost and low on usage/month). So, thats $45*.10/(28*24*60) or - what 1.1 cents/minute? So, if we had a billing/payment method where we could bill folks at say 1.2 - 1.3 cents/minute with no other billing cost then we'd have something here. (I've added a tiny bit to cover the cost of electricity, initial purchase of hardware, etc). Anybody want to start setting this up? rc Rusty Carruth Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: (480) 345-3621 SnailMail: Schlumberger ATE FAX: (480) 345-8793 7855 S. River Parkway, Suite 116 Ham: N7IKQ @ 146.82+,pl 162.2 Tempe, AZ 85284-1825 ICBM: 33 20' 44"N 111 53' 47"W
Re: Re[2]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
I was thinking of something similar, only without the business plan:) For one, I think the phone co. might try charge more for the line, since you would be in effect competing with them instead of simply using their services. I don't know, maybe all the monopoly stuff figures in there it'd be cheaper (get telecom/isp rates). Instead of having a pay service, have it be more like napster. Ok, not really, but yeah. If you are operating a gateway, you have use of the service. As a gateway operator, you can add x number of people to the network. That way, it's not a commercial endeavor you can use a residential line. But before anything like that can happen, the software has to be written... BTW, wouldn't you also need a voice modem? Joseph Red [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Rusty Carruth" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 7:33 AM Subject: Re[2]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony "Praedor Tempus" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to see a non-hardware based answer. It would not be optimal but it would be cheaper and easier for many people. Um, I'm confused. We need to connect from the internet using ip to the PSTN using analog/voice. Using software only I know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the bits across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) While perusing this thread, I considered the idea of a network of folks who had IP-to-PSTN gateways that would allow others to use them for free, but the problem there is - I have to either pay for a second phone line so I can let other people use it for free, or I have to allow strangers to tie up my primary phone line at random times for unknown periods while strangers use it! Hmm. How about this - first, we'll assume business rates because the phone company would want to stick us for the higher rate - lets say thats $45/month (high, I hope!). Lets assume usage is 10% of the time, and we want to break even at that usage rate. For the sake of argument, we'll use a 28-day month (I'm trying to find the least you can reasonably charge to break even here, so I'm trying to estimate high on cost and low on usage/month). So, thats $45*.10/(28*24*60) or - what 1.1 cents/minute? So, if we had a billing/payment method where we could bill folks at say 1.2 - 1.3 cents/minute with no other billing cost then we'd have something here. (I've added a tiny bit to cover the cost of electricity, initial purchase of hardware, etc). Anybody want to start setting this up? rc Rusty Carruth Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: (480) 345-3621 SnailMail: Schlumberger ATE FAX: (480) 345-8793 7855 S. River Parkway, Suite 116 Ham: N7IKQ @ 146.82+,pl 162.2 Tempe, AZ 85284-1825 ICBM: 33 20' 44"N 111 53' 47"W
Re[4]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
"Joseph Red" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was thinking of something similar, only without the business plan:) For one, I think the phone co. might try charge more for the line, since you would be in effect competing with them instead of simply using their services. I don't know, maybe all the monopoly stuff figures in there it'd be cheaper (get telecom/isp rates). Instead of having a pay service, have it be more like napster. Ok, not really, but yeah. If you are operating a gateway, you have use of the service. As a gateway operator, you can add x number of people to the network. That way, it's not a commercial endeavor you can use a residential line. But before anything like that can happen, the software has to be written... BTW, wouldn't you also need a voice modem? Joseph Red [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was assuming these folks had DSL or better lines to the internet, as otherwise it makes no sense (tie up your network connection while the dialout voice phone is in use That doubles the cost!). I was also assuming people would not include the cost of the DSL connection into their figuring, which is admittedly a bit bogus... Now you know why phone companies charge so much! ;-) (and why I think the way they do DSL is so RETARDED - we the consumer basically have to pay for our bandwidth 3 stinking times! Once to get from our house to the central office, once to get from the central office to our ISP, and once from our ISP to the internet! Stupid! Lousy design! Brought to you by the same folks who brought you "The line is busy. For only 50 cents ..." - Bah!) sorry, climbing off soapbox now! Back to the question at hand. Do we have any internet lawyers (tm ;-) who care to pontificate on the business/cost/etc issues? On the other hand, how many people would be willing to set up a free thing like Joseph is suggesting? And - Should we start our own mailing list??? rc Rusty Carruth Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: (480) 345-3621 SnailMail: Schlumberger ATE FAX: (480) 345-8793 7855 S. River Parkway, Suite 116 Ham: N7IKQ @ 146.82+,pl 162.2 Tempe, AZ 85284-1825 ICBM: 33 20' 44"N 111 53' 47"W
Re: Re[4]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
I was assuming dsl/cable for incoming. The voice modem was for the actual switch to pstn (? the phone line:). I'm assuming my old 14.4 USR won't have the proper capabilities. I'm more than willing to work on this, although I have zero programming/telephony experience. Unless we can write it in C=64 basic:) I keep meaning to pick up either C or java, maybe perl, but just haven't been motivated yet. But yes, let's set up a mailing list. Well, first lets see about interest. Not much use to set up a list for 5 people. Joseph Red [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Rusty Carruth" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 7:58 AM Subject: Re[4]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony I was assuming these folks had DSL or better lines to the internet, as otherwise it makes no sense (tie up your network connection while the dialout voice phone is in use That doubles the cost!). I was also assuming people would not include the cost of the DSL connection into their figuring, which is admittedly a bit bogus... snip Do we have any internet lawyers (tm ;-) who care to pontificate on the business/cost/etc issues? On the other hand, how many people would be willing to set up a free thing like Joseph is suggesting? And - Should we start our own mailing list??? rc Rusty Carruth Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re[2]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
Actually, I was suggesting a software emulation of what a Quicknet card does. It would still have to do what the Quicknet card does and make use of net2phone switch/servers or dialpad servers for the IP-to-PSTN part. It MIGHT be possible to get dialpad to FIX their broken java app so that it works for all java-enabled clients (What the FU*K'S the point of using java in the first place if it is intended for Windoze only? The whole point of java's existence is platform independence! Frickin' idiots!) - or for Altoine to jigger it and fix the plugin himself... I rather hesitate for the moment to purchase a Quicknet card until after I see what net2phone is going to do with eliminating the free service and going to fee for service. Since the Quicknet card makes partial use of net2phone servers, I would want to see what sort of charging scheme comes out of net2phone. On the other hand, if dialpad gets fixed (Altoine? :-) ) then the situation is mitigated for now. Or if a totally new client/emulator were to be written, it could be made to NOT use net2phone servers and use others instead, and avoid the net2phone charges. The actual hardware for IP-to-PSTN intercommunication is quite pricey (not the client-level Quicknet card, the actual switching hardware/hub or whatever you call it), I just thought it more likely that a company (Mandrake, Redhat, Suse, a new startup, or all of the above) could setup a service, either paid for with very low per minute usage or via advertising. It would, as I said, work with ANY client OS/system and would be able to successfully and directly compete with the two main services (dialpad and net2phone...the only two I know of for this type of thing). Hell, BOTH of these companies are forsaking Mac users as well as ALL unix-type users. That is not an insignificant number of people, all told. On Tuesday 06 February 2001 08:33, Rusty Carruth you wrote: "Praedor Tempus" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to see a non-hardware based answer. It would not be optimal but it would be cheaper and easier for many people. Um, I'm confused. We need to connect from the internet using ip to the PSTN using analog/voice. Using software only I know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the bits across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) [...] -- Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.
Re: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
Joseph Red wrote:
I was assuming dsl/cable for incoming. The voice modem was for the actual
switch to pstn (? the phone line:). I'm assuming my old 14.4 USR won't have
the proper capabilities. I'm more than willing to work on this, although I
have zero programming/telephony experience. Unless we can write it in C=64
basic:) I keep meaning to pick up either C or java, maybe perl, but just
haven't been motivated yet. But yes, let's set up a mailing list. Well,
first lets see about interest. Not much use to set up a list for 5 people.
Joseph Red
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Rusty Carruth" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 7:58 AM
Subject: Re[4]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
I was assuming these folks had DSL or better lines to the internet,
as otherwise it makes no sense (tie up your network connection while
the dialout voice phone is in use That doubles the cost!).
I was also assuming people would not include the cost of the DSL
connection into their figuring, which is admittedly a bit bogus...
snip
Do we have any internet lawyers (tm ;-) who care to pontificate
on the business/cost/etc issues?
On the other hand, how many people would be willing to set up a free
thing like Joseph is suggesting?
And - Should we start our own mailing list???
rc
Rusty Carruth Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
You have to start from somewhere. I am down and so is Vic. I'm adding
you two to my personal address book. I hope this ok with you both?
Cheers,
-- Al
--
.--. `
|__| .---. Altoine Barker
|=.| |.-.| Maximum Time, Inc
|--| ||$SEND|| Chicago Based Enterprise
| | |'-'| http://www.maximumtime.com
|__|~')_('
Re: Re[2]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
On Tuesday 06 February 2001 17:11, Praedor Tempus wrote: Actually, I was suggesting a software emulation of what a Quicknet card does. It would still have to do what the Quicknet card does and make use of net2phone switch/servers or dialpad servers for the IP-to-PSTN part. It MIGHT be possible to get dialpad to FIX their broken java app so that it works for all java-enabled clients (What the FU*K'S the point of using java in the first place if it is intended for Windoze only? The whole point of java's existence is platform independence! Frickin' idiots!) - or for Altoine to jigger it and fix the plugin himself... Right on!!! I rather hesitate for the moment to purchase a Quicknet card until after I see what net2phone is going to do with eliminating the free service and going to fee for service. Since the Quicknet card makes partial use of net2phone servers, I would want to see what sort of charging scheme comes out of net2phone. On the other hand, if dialpad gets fixed (Altoine? :-) ) then the situation is mitigated for now. Or if a totally new client/emulator were to be written, it could be made to NOT use net2phone servers and use others instead, and avoid the net2phone charges. The actual hardware for IP-to-PSTN intercommunication is quite pricey (not the client-level Quicknet card, the actual switching hardware/hub or whatever you call it), YOU DONT NEED ANYTHING EXCEPT THE F#$%^* CARD! READ, READ, READ THE DOCS! I just thought it more likely that a company (Mandrake, Redhat, Suse, a new startup, or all of the above) could setup a service, either paid for with very low per minute usage or via advertising. It would, as I said, work with ANY client OS/system and would be able to successfully and directly compete with the two main services (dialpad and net2phone...the only two I know of for this type of thing). Hell, BOTH of these companies are forsaking Mac users as well as ALL unix-type users. That is not an insignificant number of people, all told. On Tuesday 06 February 2001 08:33, Rusty Carruth you wrote: "Praedor Tempus" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to see a non-hardware based answer. It would not be optimal but it would be cheaper and easier for many people. Um, I'm confused. We need to connect from the internet using ip to the PSTN using analog/voice. Using software only I know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the bits across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) [...]
Re[4]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
"Tricia C. Sesar" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 06 February 2001 15:33, Rusty Carruth wrote: ... I know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the bits across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) PSTN doesn't use "bits". It's an analog network Sorry, imprecise use of 'bits'. Rewind and see this: know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the pieces of info across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) Or, for more discriminating tastes: know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the information from the digital stream into analog and off into to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) rc - the foo man from choo... Rusty Carruth Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: (480) 345-3621 SnailMail: Schlumberger ATE FAX: (480) 345-8793 7855 S. River Parkway, Suite 116 Ham: N7IKQ @ 146.82+,pl 162.2 Tempe, AZ 85284-1825 ICBM: 33 20' 44"N 111 53' 47"W
Re: Re[2]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
On Tuesday 06 February 2001 15:33, Rusty Carruth wrote: "Praedor Tempus" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to see a non-hardware based answer. It would not be optimal but it would be cheaper and easier for many people. Um, I'm confused. We need to connect from the internet using ip to the PSTN using analog/voice. Using software only I know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the bits across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) PSTN doesn't use "bits". It's an analog network While perusing this thread, I considered the idea of a network of folks who had IP-to-PSTN gateways that would allow others to use them for free, but the problem there is - I have to either pay for a second phone line so I can let other people use it for free, or I have to allow strangers to tie up my primary phone line at random times for unknown periods while strangers use it! Hmm. How about this - first, we'll assume business rates because the phone company would want to stick us for the higher rate - lets say thats $45/month (high, I hope!). Lets assume usage is 10% of the time, and we want to break even at that usage rate. For the sake of argument, we'll use a 28-day month (I'm trying to find the least you can reasonably charge to break even here, so I'm trying to estimate high on cost and low on usage/month). So, thats $45*.10/(28*24*60) or - what 1.1 cents/minute? So, if we had a billing/payment method where we could bill folks at say 1.2 - 1.3 cents/minute with no other billing cost then we'd have something here. (I've added a tiny bit to cover the cost of electricity, initial purchase of hardware, etc). Anybody want to start setting this up? rc Rusty Carruth Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: (480) 345-3621 SnailMail: Schlumberger ATE FAX: (480) 345-8793 7855 S. River Parkway, Suite 116 Ham: N7IKQ @ 146.82+,pl 162.2 Tempe, AZ 85284-1825 ICBM: 33 20' 44"N 111 53' 47"W
Re: Re[2]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
Wow, this is crazy. Maybe the following will explain client - software app - ISP - Internet - Service Provider - VOIP Gateway - PSTN client = You, the linux user software app = doesn't exist properly yet (JAVA crap) ISP = well, you know Internet = duh, Service Provider = Provides billing, advertising, routing, lots of bandwith to the internet. VOIP Gateway = takes the packets from the service provider, and converts them into voice, and switches that voice world wide, via the standard PSTN Tandem Switching, usually using SS7 switching. So, the client shouldn't need to buy crap. The service provider needs to be the one who provides the client free stuff, and just puts browser banners up with girl butt or pokemon stuff, to pay for the server farm and bandwidth (anyone price an OC-12 lately?). And, the VOIP gateway folks are the ones that are going to bill the crap out of you for all those calls, because they have the million dollar loan to pay off! Read this link } http://www.innomedia.com/ip_telephony/voip/index.htm --- "Tricia C. Sesar" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 06 February 2001 17:11, Praedor Tempus wrote: Actually, I was suggesting a software emulation of what a Quicknet card does. It would still have to do what the Quicknet card does and make use of net2phone switch/servers or dialpad servers for the IP-to-PSTN part. It MIGHT be possible to get dialpad to FIX their broken java app so that it works for all java-enabled clients (What the FU*K'S the point of using java in the first place if it is intended for Windoze only? The whole point of java's existence is platform independence! Frickin' idiots!) - or for Altoine to jigger it and fix the plugin himself... Right on!!! I rather hesitate for the moment to purchase a Quicknet card until after I see what net2phone is going to do with eliminating the free service and going to fee for service. Since the Quicknet card makes partial use of net2phone servers, I would want to see what sort of charging scheme comes out of net2phone. On the other hand, if dialpad gets fixed (Altoine? :-) ) then the situation is mitigated for now. Or if a totally new client/emulator were to be written, it could be made to NOT use net2phone servers and use others instead, and avoid the net2phone charges. The actual hardware for IP-to-PSTN intercommunication is quite pricey (not the client-level Quicknet card, the actual switching hardware/hub or whatever you call it), YOU DONT NEED ANYTHING EXCEPT THE F#$%^* CARD! READ, READ, READ THE DOCS! I just thought it more likely that a company (Mandrake, Redhat, Suse, a new startup, or all of the above) could setup a service, either paid for with very low per minute usage or via advertising. It would, as I said, work with ANY client OS/system and would be able to successfully and directly compete with the two main services (dialpad and net2phone...the only two I know of for this type of thing). Hell, BOTH of these companies are forsaking Mac users as well as ALL unix-type users. That is not an insignificant number of people, all told. On Tuesday 06 February 2001 08:33, Rusty Carruth you wrote: "Praedor Tempus" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to see a non-hardware based answer. It would not be optimal but it would be cheaper and easier for many people. Um, I'm confused. We need to connect from the internet using ip to the PSTN using analog/voice. Using software only I know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the bits across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) [...] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Re: Re[2]: [expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
I know we can do a LOT with software, but there's this little problem of getting the bits across to the PSTN 'network' that will require at least a little hardware ;-) PSTN doesn't use "bits". It's an analog network Actually that's not true any more. It's only analog for the last mile, from the Telco Central Office to your phone. Just about every CO to CO handoff is digital nowadays.as are all Long Distance calls. --Dave
[expert] My last word on Linux Telephony
This seems to be a hot topic tonight. Kinda ironic, as I was just starting to get the bug into my head about this. Here are some facts: The technology is available. Below is a snippet from the VoIP HOW-TO (which some of you have been quick to dismiss tonight, without really understanding what you are reading): "5.1 Hardware requirement To create a little VoIP system you need the following hardware: 1.PC 386 or more 2.Sound card, full duplex capable 3.a network card or connection to internet or other kind of interface to allow communication between 2 PCs All that has to be present twice to simulate a standard communication. The tool above are the minimal requirement for a VoIP connection: next we'll see that we should (and in Internet we must) use more hardware to do the same in a real situation. Sound card has be full duplex unless we couldn't hear anything while speaking! As additional you can use hardware cards (see next) able to manage data stream in a compressed format (see Par 4.3). Under Linux we only have free software from OpenH323 web site: simph323 or ohphone that can also work with Quicknet accelerating hardware. Attention: all Openh323 source code has to be compiled in a user directory (if not it is necessary to change some environment variable). You are warned that compiling time could be very high and you could need a lot of RAM to make it in a decent time. 5.5 Gateway software To manage gateway feature (join TCP/IP VoIP to PSTN lines) you need some kind of software like this: Internet SwitchBoard for Windows systems also acting as a h323 terminal; PSTNGw for Linux and Windows systems you download from OpenH323. 5.6 Gatekeeper software You can choose as gatekeeper: 1.Opengatekeeper, you can download from opengatekeeper web site for Linux and Win9x. 2.Openh323 Gatekeeper (GK) from here. 5.7 Other software In addition I report some useful software h323 compliant: Phonepatch, able to solve problems behind a NAT firewall. It simply allows users (external or internal) calling from a web page (which is reachable from even external and internal users): when web application understands the remote host is ready, it calls (h323) the source telling it all is ok and communication can be established. Phonepatch is a proprietary software (with also a demo version for no more than 3 minutes long conversations) you download from here. " Now, I know that some of you have been intersted in signing up for a service (ie dialpad), and just log in and dial away. Don't know of any. Someone posted some directions to this list regarding getting dialpad to work under Linux. I'm dubious, but give it a shot. You also may be interested in: http://speakfreely.org Never used it. But it is only pc-to-pc, which some of you were opposed to. If, your top-end goal is to make calls, using the Internet to replace (at least, in part) your PSTN, and the benefits of a hardware solution are worth the $$$ to you, then check these out: http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/VoIP-HOWTO.html http://www.linuxjack.com http://linuxtelephony.org http://www.openh323.org http://www.opentelecom.org/ The cards that I mentioned earlier DO allow PC-to-phone connection. Check out some of the resources above for an explanation of how it all works. For any PERL hackers out there, check out this month's PERL Journal. HTH, Steve
