Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
Bill, Thanks for your response! Randy Kramer Bill Randle wrote: Have you noticed any difference the frequency of disconnects based on weather? E.g., is it any worse after it rains compared to an extended dry spell? No, but I'll start paying more attention to that. What about time of day? Is it any worse during the day compared to night time? Again, I'll have to pay more attention. Certainly there are times of the day when response is much slower, presumably because they are peak times -- everybody home from work or whatever. Do you use the same phone line for your regular voice phone conversations? No. If so, have you ever noticed any static, hum or other noise on the line? If so, you could get the phone co. to take a look at the line because your voice service is degraded. But occasionally I do notice noise on the voice line -- I think (as someone else suggested), I'll try switching them for a longer period of time, and spend some time listening on the line that is now the data line. If you don't use this line as your regular phone line, have you tried switching your data line and phone line to see if there's any difference. Check for data errors / disconnects on your regular line and listen for any audible problems on your data line. Will do. Some modems track the number of transmission errors they receive, or the number of re-trains they have to do (i.e. how many times did your modem loose sync with the ISP's modem and have to re-establish the connection). You could check your modem documentation and see if any of this information is available with S regisiter queries. I will look for such an s register (after I find the modem documentation ;-) ) I think there are some phone numbers you can dial and get a relative quality and/or connection speed number, but I don't know any specific numbers off hand. Those would be useful, if anybody else knows of some. I know that one of the modem manufacturers (US Robotics?) used to (and may still) offer a service something like that, but, AFAIK, it mainly was a test to say whether your line was adequate for the next step up (at the time) like maybe to 56 kbps -- I'll check out their site today. There's various telephony test equipment made for testing phone lines, measuring bandwidth, etc., but you don't really want to buy that stuff for a one off test. What you need is a buddy that works for a phone company or private installation company or test equipment manufacturer that can help you test your line. As you pointed out, the phone company is not obligated to provide you high speed data service on a regular voice phone line. [In this context high speed means 9600 baud or so.] I'll have to look for a Telco buddy! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
Praedor, Thanks for the response! Praedor Tempus wrote: First, the obvious question...did your high disconnect problem start coincident with the new policy from your ISP? It's hard to tell. I'd say it this way: I started noticing more disconnects (or maybe just got more frustrated with the disconnects -- I'm not really sure which). Then I contacted the ISP, and they told me about this 4 hour / 12 hour policy. (I'll have to go look for this in writing again -- they promised to send it to me once -- they insist it was part of what I signed when I first signed up with them (about 8 years ago), but it was not -- it is something they added since. So now I associate the start of the high disconnect problem with my discovery of this policy. Though you pay for an unlimited connection, I could see the point of you being disconnected after X minutes of inactivity, so long as X isn't too short. IIRC, they always had a policy of disconnecting after X minutes of idle time (15?) -- this additional policy was probably in response to people like me who started checking for mail every 10 minutes. All the suggestions provided were solid...but none would work for me. I had a similar problem to you but it was obvious that it was a line problem, not an ISP problem. Our phoneline would produce lots of static quite often. We noticed it was worse for a period during and after a rain. The phone company came out and, of course the first time, heard no static at all. Second time, they came out and heard the static. They replaced our old outdoor junction box which coincided with the termination (for a few days at least) of static. Finally, the static returned as strong as it always had been before and they came out again and located the problem...the connection from our house into their main line, ground level. The twisted pairs were old and the insulation had worn off in a few places. They fixed this and the static (and slow modem connection speeds and disconnects) went away. I'll switch my voice and data lines and spend more time listening. This brings to mind another test to suggest whether you have a line problem or an ISP problem...how are your connection speeds? When I was having the line problems, my 57kbps modem would often be connecting at sub-20kbps (sometimes even 9700). Almost every time I check, my connection occurs at 33,400 IIRC. On very rare occasions I can remember some other speeds, but that's over the 8 years or so I've been using the ISP. Even when it made a reasonably fast connection, the actual performance was much poorer than the speed would otherwise suggest. Even though I might get a 33kbps connection on occassion, the actual data transfer rate would be MUCH slower. Do you see any of this? If not, then it is not likely a line problem. We often see file data transfer speeds way below 33 kbps (way below kBps or whatever that translates to) -- I've always attributed that to the Internet hops and, when I've looked closer, I've seen a reasonable (inverse) correlation between hops and transfer speeds, or sometimes attributed slowdowns to an overworked server. Do you have any suggestions on how to tell the difference between one of those causes and line problems? (I guess I could bounce a big file back and forth between me and my ISP -- I do have a 5 or 10 mB free web hosting site available. Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
On Monday 03 June 2002 02:31 pm, Randy Kramer wrote: I know this is somewhat off topic, but do any of you have suggestions on how to test a modem / phone line? Please read the following before responding. My problem is that I get a lot of disconnects on my 33 kbps dial up line. Several months ago, my ISP adopted a new policy -- I won't try to repeat it exactly, but basically they reserve the right to disconnect me after 4 to 12 hours (even though I pay for an unlimited connection). I get a lot more disconnects than that might indicate, and some after short periods of time, like 1 to 60 minutes. The ISP insists they are not disconnecting me, the phone line / modem is the problem. [...] First, the obvious question...did your high disconnect problem start coincident with the new policy from your ISP? Though you pay for an unlimited connection, I could see the point of you being disconnected after X minutes of inactivity, so long as X isn't too short. All the suggestions provided were solid...but none would work for me. I had a similar problem to you but it was obvious that it was a line problem, not an ISP problem. Our phoneline would produce lots of static quite often. We noticed it was worse for a period during and after a rain. The phone company came out and, of course the first time, heard no static at all. Second time, they came out and heard the static. They replaced our old outdoor junction box which coincided with the termination (for a few days at least) of static. Finally, the static returned as strong as it always had been before and they came out again and located the problem...the connection from our house into their main line, ground level. The twisted pairs were old and the insulation had worn off in a few places. They fixed this and the static (and slow modem connection speeds and disconnects) went away. This brings to mind another test to suggest whether you have a line problem or an ISP problem...how are your connection speeds? When I was having the line problems, my 57kbps modem would often be connecting at sub-20kbps (sometimes even 9700). Even when it made a reasonably fast connection, the actual performance was much poorer than the speed would otherwise suggest. Even though I might get a 33kbps connection on occassion, the actual data transfer rate would be MUCH slower. Do you see any of this? If not, then it is not likely a line problem. praedor Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
Bill, Thanks for your response! Bill Randle wrote: Have you noticed any difference the frequency of disconnects based on weather? E.g., is it any worse after it rains compared to an extended dry spell? No, but I'll start paying attention to that. What about time of day? Is it any worse during the day compared to night time? No, not really. There are times when things are slower, presumably because they are peak traffic times (everybody home from work or whatever). Do you use the same phone line for your regular voice phone conversations? No. If so, have you ever noticed any static, hum or other noise on the line? If so, you could get the phone co. to take a look at the line because your voice service is degraded. If you don't use this line as your regular phone line, have you tried switching your data line and phone line to see if there's any difference. Check for data errors / disconnects on your regular line and listen for any audible problems on your data line. Occasionally have noticed static on the voice line. Will switch the lines (again) for an extended period and see what happens. Some modems track the number of transmission errors they receive, or the number of re-trains they have to do (i.e. how many times did your modem loose sync with the ISP's modem and have to re-establish the connection). You could check your modem documentation and see if any of this information is available with S regisiter queries. I'll have to look for such an s register (after I find the modem documentation ;-). I think there are some phone numbers you can dial and get a relative quality and/or connection speed number, but I don't know any specific numbers off hand. I think that could be very helpful -- some modem manufacturers used to do something like that, but I think it was more to test a line to confirm it would work for whatever (at that time) was the next step up in modem speeds (56 kbps?). I'll check out the US Robotics site, because I think they were one that offered a test like that. There's various telephony test equipment made for testing phone lines, measuring bandwidth, etc., but you don't really want to buy that stuff for a one off test. What you need is a buddy that works for a phone company or private installation company or test equipment manufacturer that can help you test your line. As you pointed out, the phone company is not obligated to provide you high speed data service on a regular voice phone line. [In this context high speed means 9600 baud or so.] I'll have to look for a Telco buddy. PS: Hope this is not a duplicate -- Netscape locked up before sending this so I (rewrote and) resent it. Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
Pierre, Thanks for your response! Pierre Fortin wrote: - do you have call waiting or other intrusive-notification features? sure the telco didn't add some by mistake? No, or at least I don't pay for it -- but it is worth checking. Sometimes a few minutes after a disconnect we get a (voice) call on the data line. I've sometimes (mentally) accused somebody of calling the operator to disconnect us and then put the call through, but maybe there is something like call waiting installed. - if you're using kppp, turn on debugging... if the telco is initiating the disconnect, you will see a control packet (forgot the content) terminating the ppp session. Otherwise, add debug to /etc/ppp/options for the same reason. I'm not using kppp, but that is surprising -- I guess I thought they just electrically pressed the switchhook down. I probably don't have a good way to view those packets or maintain a lot of debug data since the gateway runs on a floppy disk -- but I might throw in an older (small hard disk) and try looking a little closer. - are you getting a ppp termination code? See EXIT STATUS section of 'man pppd'... 0, 15 or 16 are probably what you are seeing... 12 or 13 should be due to your end... Another reason to add a small hard disk and start saving more log data. Not sure if the dos software I'm using (iproute) provides similar termination codes. I guess long term, I should switch my internet gateway to Linux. Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
Ken, Thanks for your response! Ken Thompson wrote: Randy, my ISP does the exact same thing and here's my solution: A) If you have a dedicated dialup connection, put a ping command for 15 min intervals in cron. B) If you have a normal dialup you can open an account on ICQ and run the LICQ applet, it pings mirabilis.com every 3 to 5 min keeping your connection alive. This is what I have to do to keep from being disconnected after 1 to 15 min. I have Netscape set up to check for email every 10 minutes, which I would think would serve the same purpose, but I like the ping idea. (Maybe a ping would serve the purpose better somehow?) I guess I should clarify one thing -- IIRC, the ISP's policy doesn't require that I've been idle for any specified amount of time, and I don't know how they've implemented the policy. My understanding of the policy is that if they check my line any time 4 hours after I've connected they can decide that I've been hanging and have the right to disconnect me. (Maybe hanging implies the line has been idle??) A few times they've told me there is no automatic disconnect, but I just have this vague suspicion that they're not telling me everything. (And I can imagine some poor ways to implement an automatic disconnection, or creation / maintenance of a list of potential disconnectees presented to the sysadmin for use when traffic gets high. Darn, I'm way too cynical / suspicious.) BTW: I'd like to be able to give the ping command orally -- One ping, one ping only in my best Sean Connery voice. ;-) Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
randy, just an idea that will very likely not solve your problem but maybe easen it a bit: I don't know where you are located, but if you have access to a satellite dish, you could get yourself one of those ATSC/DVB cards that offer a satellite-downlink from your satellite dish into your computer. The uploads (=all requests you SEND to the internet) still require a dial-up line, but most of the time uploading is not the real problem. Main benefit is that the downstream is very fast (500K). Some of my friends have sucessfully set up such a configuration, so if you're interested in details, let me know. udo Am Mon, 2002-06-03 um 21.31 schrieb Randy Kramer: I know this is somewhat off topic, but do any of you have suggestions on how to test a modem / phone line? Please read the following before responding. My problem is that I get a lot of disconnects on my 33 kbps dial up line. Several months ago, my ISP adopted a new policy -- I won't try to repeat it exactly, but basically they reserve the right to disconnect me after 4 to 12 hours (even though I pay for an unlimited connection). I get a lot more disconnects than that might indicate, and some after short periods of time, like 1 to 60 minutes. The ISP insists they are not disconnecting me, the phone line / modem is the problem. I haven't really tackled the phone company very seriously yet, but I'm sure they will point out that their only obligation is to provide a voice grade line. Even if I insist that they test it (and possibly bill me!?!), if it tests out as adequate for voice communications, they will tell me to go pound sand. But, I really don't know where the problem lies -- I could have a substandard modem, I could have substandard lines, or the ISP could be intentionally disconnecting me before the 4 to 12 hours. (I say that because I don't recall nearly as many disconnections before they changed their policy and I gave them some static about it.) I'm looking for suggestions on how to tackle this. Anyone know of any sites that I can call using my modem and get some sort of report on the quality of my modem / telephone line? Other thoughts? Randy Kramer PS: I would consider switching to cable or DSL, but I'm beyond the 18,000 foot limit on distance from my central telephone exchange, and my cable company is only offering one way modems at this time (in my area), which means I'd still need the modem and phone line. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
It could be difficult to tell the difference between a lot of hither-and-yon movement of files around the internet vs simple noise requiring lots of resent packets. In my case, I concluding the slowness problem was line-noise because it was often there when we would pick up the phone (not always) and I would consistently get url load times and file transfer times and mail download times that were much slower than the connection speed would otherwise indicate. I can particularly tell the difference now that the noise was eliminated. A 42kbps connection FEELS like a proper 42kbps connection instead of a 9600. I don't get the random disconnect, and I get fewer errors and delays when accessing my pop mail. I would think one measure of noise would show up in pings. If you select a series of sites to ping for a short while now and again, I would think that if it was a noise problem you would see lost packets. If the pings did a lot of transferring from this router to that router, taking side routes, you would get them back with slow timings and probably no loss. praedor On Tuesday 04 June 2002 12:44 pm, Randy Kramer wrote: Praedor, Thanks for the response! Praedor Tempus wrote: First, the obvious question...did your high disconnect problem start coincident with the new policy from your ISP? It's hard to tell. I'd say it this way: I started noticing more disconnects (or maybe just got more frustrated with the disconnects -- I'm not really sure which). Then I contacted the ISP, and they told me about this 4 hour / 12 hour policy. (I'll have to go look for this in writing again -- they promised to send it to me once -- they insist it was part of what I signed when I first signed up with them (about 8 years ago), but it was not -- it is something they added since. So now I associate the start of the high disconnect problem with my discovery of this policy. Though you pay for an unlimited connection, I could see the point of you being disconnected after X minutes of inactivity, so long as X isn't too short. IIRC, they always had a policy of disconnecting after X minutes of idle time (15?) -- this additional policy was probably in response to people like me who started checking for mail every 10 minutes. All the suggestions provided were solid...but none would work for me. I had a similar problem to you but it was obvious that it was a line problem, not an ISP problem. Our phoneline would produce lots of static quite often. We noticed it was worse for a period during and after a rain. The phone company came out and, of course the first time, heard no static at all. Second time, they came out and heard the static. They replaced our old outdoor junction box which coincided with the termination (for a few days at least) of static. Finally, the static returned as strong as it always had been before and they came out again and located the problem...the connection from our house into their main line, ground level. The twisted pairs were old and the insulation had worn off in a few places. They fixed this and the static (and slow modem connection speeds and disconnects) went away. I'll switch my voice and data lines and spend more time listening. This brings to mind another test to suggest whether you have a line problem or an ISP problem...how are your connection speeds? When I was having the line problems, my 57kbps modem would often be connecting at sub-20kbps (sometimes even 9700). Almost every time I check, my connection occurs at 33,400 IIRC. On very rare occasions I can remember some other speeds, but that's over the 8 years or so I've been using the ISP. Even when it made a reasonably fast connection, the actual performance was much poorer than the speed would otherwise suggest. Even though I might get a 33kbps connection on occassion, the actual data transfer rate would be MUCH slower. Do you see any of this? If not, then it is not likely a line problem. We often see file data transfer speeds way below 33 kbps (way below kBps or whatever that translates to) -- I've always attributed that to the Internet hops and, when I've looked closer, I've seen a reasonable (inverse) correlation between hops and transfer speeds, or sometimes attributed slowdowns to an overworked server. Do you have any suggestions on how to tell the difference between one of those causes and line problems? (I guess I could bounce a big file back and forth between me and my ISP -- I do have a 5 or 10 mB free web hosting site available. Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
On Tuesday 04 June 2002 11:29 am, Randy Kramer wrote: Ken, Thanks for your response! Ken Thompson wrote: Randy, my ISP does the exact same thing and here's my solution: A) If you have a dedicated dialup connection, put a ping command for 15 min intervals in cron. B) If you have a normal dialup you can open an account on ICQ and run the LICQ applet, it pings mirabilis.com every 3 to 5 min keeping your connection alive. This is what I have to do to keep from being disconnected after 1 to 15 min. I have Netscape set up to check for email every 10 minutes, which I would think would serve the same purpose, but I like the ping idea. (Maybe a ping would serve the purpose better somehow?) I guess I should clarify one thing -- IIRC, the ISP's policy doesn't require that I've been idle for any specified amount of time, and I don't know how they've implemented the policy. My understanding of the policy is that if they check my line any time 4 hours after I've connected they can decide that I've been hanging and have the right to disconnect me. (Maybe hanging implies the line has been idle??) A few times they've told me there is no automatic disconnect, but I just have this vague suspicion that they're not telling me everything. (And I can imagine some poor ways to implement an automatic disconnection, or creation / maintenance of a list of potential disconnectees presented to the sysadmin for use when traffic gets high. Darn, I'm way too cynical / suspicious.) BTW: I'd like to be able to give the ping command orally -- One ping, one ping only in my best Sean Connery voice. ;-) Randy Kramer Randy, LICQ does only 1 ping and so, if you specify the number if pings, does ping. Example: ping 192.168.10.xxx -c1 would send just 1 ping to the address, a 5 following the -c would send 5 pings etc.. -- Ken Thompson, North West Antique Autos Payette, Idaho Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nwaa.com Office Phone: 208-642-0785 Cell Phone: 208-284-5712 Sales and brokering of antique autos and parts. Linux- Coming Soon To A Desktop Near You Registered Linux User #183936 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
I know this is somewhat off topic, but do any of you have suggestions on how to test a modem / phone line? Please read the following before responding. My problem is that I get a lot of disconnects on my 33 kbps dial up line. Several months ago, my ISP adopted a new policy -- I won't try to repeat it exactly, but basically they reserve the right to disconnect me after 4 to 12 hours (even though I pay for an unlimited connection). I get a lot more disconnects than that might indicate, and some after short periods of time, like 1 to 60 minutes. The ISP insists they are not disconnecting me, the phone line / modem is the problem. I haven't really tackled the phone company very seriously yet, but I'm sure they will point out that their only obligation is to provide a voice grade line. Even if I insist that they test it (and possibly bill me!?!), if it tests out as adequate for voice communications, they will tell me to go pound sand. But, I really don't know where the problem lies -- I could have a substandard modem, I could have substandard lines, or the ISP could be intentionally disconnecting me before the 4 to 12 hours. (I say that because I don't recall nearly as many disconnections before they changed their policy and I gave them some static about it.) I'm looking for suggestions on how to tackle this. Anyone know of any sites that I can call using my modem and get some sort of report on the quality of my modem / telephone line? Other thoughts? Randy Kramer PS: I would consider switching to cable or DSL, but I'm beyond the 18,000 foot limit on distance from my central telephone exchange, and my cable company is only offering one way modems at this time (in my area), which means I'd still need the modem and phone line. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
Randy, Have you noticed any difference the frequency of disconnects based on weather? E.g., is it any worse after it rains compared to an extended dry spell? What about time of day? Is it any worse during the day compared to night time? Do you use the same phone line for your regular voice phone conversations? If so, have you ever noticed any static, hum or other noise on the line? If so, you could get the phone co. to take a look at the line because your voice service is degraded. If you don't use this line as your regular phone line, have you tried switching your data line and phone line to see if there's any difference. Check for data errors / disconnects on your regular line and listen for any audible problems on your data line. Some modems track the number of transmission errors they receive, or the number of re-trains they have to do (i.e. how many times did your modem loose sync with the ISP's modem and have to re-establish the connection). You could check your modem documentation and see if any of this information is available with S regisiter queries. I think there are some phone numbers you can dial and get a relative quality and/or connection speed number, but I don't know any specific numbers off hand. There's various telephony test equipment made for testing phone lines, measuring bandwidth, etc., but you don't really want to buy that stuff for a one off test. What you need is a buddy that works for a phone company or private installation company or test equipment manufacturer that can help you test your line. As you pointed out, the phone company is not obligated to provide you high speed data service on a regular voice phone line. [In this context high speed means 9600 baud or so.] -Bill Randle Randy Kramer wrote: I know this is somewhat off topic, but do any of you have suggestions on how to test a modem / phone line? Please read the following before responding. My problem is that I get a lot of disconnects on my 33 kbps dial up line. Several months ago, my ISP adopted a new policy -- I won't try to repeat it exactly, but basically they reserve the right to disconnect me after 4 to 12 hours (even though I pay for an unlimited connection). I get a lot more disconnects than that might indicate, and some after short periods of time, like 1 to 60 minutes. The ISP insists they are not disconnecting me, the phone line / modem is the problem. I haven't really tackled the phone company very seriously yet, but I'm sure they will point out that their only obligation is to provide a voice grade line. Even if I insist that they test it (and possibly bill me!?!), if it tests out as adequate for voice communications, they will tell me to go pound sand. But, I really don't know where the problem lies -- I could have a substandard modem, I could have substandard lines, or the ISP could be intentionally disconnecting me before the 4 to 12 hours. (I say that because I don't recall nearly as many disconnections before they changed their policy and I gave them some static about it.) I'm looking for suggestions on how to tackle this. Anyone know of any sites that I can call using my modem and get some sort of report on the quality of my modem / telephone line? Other thoughts? Randy Kramer PS: I would consider switching to cable or DSL, but I'm beyond the 18,000 foot limit on distance from my central telephone exchange, and my cable company is only offering one way modems at this time (in my area), which means I'd still need the modem and phone line. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] OT: Testing a Modem / Telephone Line
On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 15:31:51 -0400 Randy Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My problem is that I get a lot of disconnects on my 33 kbps dial up line. Hi Randy, All of Bill's points plus... - do you have call waiting or other intrusive-notification features? sure the telco didn't add some by mistake? - if you're using kppp, turn on debugging... if the telco is initiating the disconnect, you will see a control packet (forgot the content) terminating the ppp session. Otherwise, add debug to /etc/ppp/options for the same reason. - are you getting a ppp termination code? See EXIT STATUS section of 'man pppd'... 0, 15 or 16 are probably what you are seeing... 12 or 13 should be due to your end... HTH, Pierre Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
