[expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 08:45:29PM +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: [...] Of course, Thomas also pays in other ways. The only reason that I saw his situation as freeloading was because he started by saying that he would have bought, had not the matter of advertisements arisen - in other words, he could have afforded. Yes, I could have. I have given my reasons for not doing so and I stand by them. I've also offered the alternative of offering ad-free products for a higher price than the ad-ware. If it's money Mandrake needs, this could be a nice alternative, IMO. Curiously, no-one ever commented on that. And yes, to me, this is important enough that I *would* pay a higher price. Regards, Thomas (who expects to get a sh*t load of mail should Mandrake ever decide to actually offer such a product... :-) ) -- - Thomas Ribbrockhttp://www.ribbrock.org You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 15, 2003 03:37 pm, T. Ribbrock wrote: whack I've also offered the alternative of offering ad-free products for a higher price than the ad-ware. If it's money Mandrake needs, this could be a nice alternative, IMO. Curiously, no-one ever commented on that. And yes, to me, this is important enough that I *would* pay a higher price. Regards, Thomas (who expects to get a sh*t load of mail should Mandrake ever decide to actually offer such a product... :-) ) Look, I really don't give a shit what anybody else does or doesn't do with regard to supporting or not supporting MandrakeSoft. It's immaterial. I do what I do and I have a clear conscience. If yours isn't that's your problem. That's a generic yours BTW; each of us knows whether we have anything to feel guilty over and I don't want to read justifications, or have to keep hitting delete. Let's just let this crap die and get on with the utilization of this list for what it was intended, *please!* Thanks; Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-9mdk 15:50:07 up 3:15, 1 user, load average: 0.39, 0.28, 0.22 The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - - Edmund Burke -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/ZjUvG11CaRuZZSIRAr97AJ9MvJq3PX010PIJpV/ebaY3Z9c0xQCfSgTt dqrAxeRbSMw+xs/reb1GhAs= =YboM -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
Why is it when I go to my local Fry's I see rows of Red Hat boxes some BSD boxes and Slackware CD's but never see Mandrake boxes. I would gladly purchase Mandrake instead of downloading it if it was in the stores. Seems to me that Mandrake needs to get there product out on the shelves. I can purchase Red Hat all over the place here in Silicon Valley but Mandrake is hard to find. Why is that? Before Mandrake starts in with the adware they need to make sure there product is out on the shelves next to Red Hat. If you want to sell your product ya gota make it available to the public. Not everyone can download the iso's and make the cd's. There are still peole using modems! I belong to the club and I do download the iso's but at 144K it does take a long time. I would prefere to just purchase the boxed set when I drop by my local computer store. If it aint there I cant buy it. Im not going to search hi and low for it. Geez RH is all over out here. On Star Date Monday 15 September 2003 02:37 pm, T. Ribbrock sent this sub-space message. On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 08:45:29PM +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: [...] Of course, Thomas also pays in other ways. The only reason that I saw his situation as freeloading was because he started by saying that he would have bought, had not the matter of advertisements arisen - in other words, he could have afforded. Yes, I could have. I have given my reasons for not doing so and I stand by them. I've also offered the alternative of offering ad-free products for a higher price than the ad-ware. If it's money Mandrake needs, this could be a nice alternative, IMO. Curiously, no-one ever commented on that. And yes, to me, this is important enough that I *would* pay a higher price. Regards, Thomas (who expects to get a sh*t load of mail should Mandrake ever decide to actually offer such a product... :-) ) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 07:49:30AM -0700, Rolf Pedersen wrote: Do you even use Mandrake? Yup, I have 9.1 on one of my machines. That's why I considered buying 9.2. MDK lost that sale. A product does not materialize out of thin air: it takes money for the people who produce it to live, no? What other products are you able to consume without recompense until you decide it comes up to your standards sufficiently to pay for it? Reality check: That's called free market. If the product on offer doesn't suit my needs/interests/whatever, I don't buy it. Simple 101 of marketing. That only gets me into trouble if there's no alternative - which is not the case here. Some must pay for what many take for free, be it advertisers or Club members. I wonder what percentage of the complainers about the ads actually support Mandrake with cash versus the percentage who complain merely because they would rather take without being reminded of the obligation. That's exactly my point: MDK has taken away the obligation by making money of the download edition (nothing wrong with that) *and* making extra money besides the purchase price of the boxed version. Hence, my motivation to buy the boxed version is gone. Or, to put into other words: If MDK feels the need of forcing ads on paying customers, I have no interest in supporting them anymore. I do feel that I put my point poorly yesterday. I'm actually frustrated. I'm a long time RH user (since 4.1, i.e. 1996/97) and in that time, there still was spirit in them. By now, I never went beyond RH 7.3, as I don't like current developments, so I went looking for alternatives. MDK seemed interesting, not only because of a good product, but also because of the setup (Club etc., though most likely I won't need it). On the other hand, I don't go round spending money to support companies without observing what's going on for a while. Pity, that MDK spoiled it right away with their announcement. Cheerio, Thomas -- - Thomas Ribbrockhttp://www.ribbrock.org You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 11:54:37AM -0400, Miark wrote: This reminds me of single issue voters I've heard so much about. You probably like urpmi more than up2date, the Drak tools more than Red Hat's tools, the MDK support lists more than the Red Hat lists, and MDKs goal of making Linux easier to use for newbies... but you're more inclined to reward Red Hat because of what they _don't_ do. With all due respect, that strikes me as petty. Wrong. I stopped buying RH a good while ago, for pretty much the same reasons: I didn't like the way they were going (and I've been in discussions about those issues more than once the the RH lists). Recently, I've been considering whether MDK is worth my while in that regard, but with current developments, I don't feel they are. Cheerio, Thomas -- - Thomas Ribbrockhttp://www.ribbrock.org You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 11:59:12AM -0400, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote: Do you ever watch sports? Take the US Open that just wrapped up last weekend. With the name *J.P. MorganChase* is plastered all over the walls of the courts in Arthur Ash stadium with the *IBM* scoreboard high above the crowd Andy Roddick received the US Open trophy along with a check for $1,000,000 from *Ford Motor Company* while wearing an outfit from *Reebok*. Afterwards you are taken to commercials by *Citizen*, [...] When I see this kind of sponsorship for an event I don't get the impressions that this is a sign of a horrible product that needs to be propped up by various thrid parties. I get the impression that people want to be associated with the event because of the benefits of the association. [...] See, here our perceptions differ. When I see sport events plastered with advertisement in that way, it looks to me as if the only thing it's about is *money*, not sport. So, yes: Apparently, the actualy product is *poor*. That perception gets even worse when I see how much influence the so called sponsors try to gain on the sport they sponsor. I've heard enought discussions about wishes for rule changes to make the sport look nicer on TV so the ads get seen better. Puh-lease! I sincerely hope, that MDK is never forced to go down that route. Cheerio, Thomas -- - Thomas Ribbrockhttp://www.ribbrock.org You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 06:56, T. Ribbrock wrote: On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 07:49:30AM -0700, Rolf Pedersen wrote: Do you even use Mandrake? Yup, I have 9.1 on one of my machines. Welcome to the world of GNU-Linux then, and welcome to this list. That's why I considered buying 9.2. MDK lost that sale. did you _buy_ that 9.1? as in does your voice really have something backing it up? A product does not materialize out of thin air: it takes money for the people who produce it to live, no? What other products are you able to consume without recompense until you decide it comes up to your standards sufficiently to pay for it? Reality check: That's called free market. Reality Check ... there has been a US court ruling that found a monopoly in the Operation Systems Software for computers. Monopoly != 'free market' and as most any MBA candidate would gladly inform you, 'free market' is an oxymoron. If the product on offer doesn't suit my needs/interests/whatever, I don't buy it. Simple 101 of marketing. That only gets me into trouble if there's no alternative - which is not the case here. Just speaking in vast and vague generalities here... you say That only gets me into trouble if which seems to say there is only one way that you can get into trouble in 'free market', and that is just not a correct statement. (as in NO... you are wrong) well there 'could' be trouble _not_ due to a lack of alternatives, but lack of education about the alternatives. that is the 'why' of sales and advertising. I have often heard it said that no sale is made unless the customer ha a clearly defined need for that good or service. Some must pay for what many take for free, be it advertisers or Club members. I wonder what percentage of the complainers about the ads actually support Mandrake with cash versus the percentage who complain merely because they would rather take without being reminded of the obligation. That's exactly my point: MDK has taken away the obligation by making money of the download edition (nothing wrong with that) *and* making extra money besides the purchase price of the boxed version. Hence, my motivation to buy the boxed version is gone. well here is my point exactly... no education about the difference between what you can download in the 3 ISO disk GPL version, and what you get when you buy a commercial package (the power-pack or Pro-Suite) Or, to put into other words: If MDK feels the need of forcing ads on paying customers, I have no interest in supporting them anymore. did you support them before? did you not notice the 'info' provided on screens as you installed? did you not notice a link (and a text box) on the default web page for Safari book sellers? did that ruin the 9.1 experience for you? did you think to complain then? I do feel that I put my point poorly yesterday. I'm actually frustrated. I'm a long time RH user (since 4.1, i.e. 1996/97) and in that time, there still was spirit in them. By now, I never went beyond RH 7.3, as I don't like current developments, so I went looking for alternatives. MDK seemed interesting, not only because of a good product, but also because of the setup (Club etc., though most likely I won't need it). so then from my reading of your reply, in spite of having been a RH user since the beginning of linux time, unless _you_ 'need' it, it is not worth supporting at all, and if it is cheaper to download you don't _need_ to buy it. Let me ask you, when you get a meal at a restaurant, do you tip the service help? OR do you only pay for those things that someone will grab you and force you to pay for? OR do you believe that one should pay a fair amount for a fair product? On the other hand, I don't go round spending money to support companies without observing what's going on for a while. This statement sounds to me like I don't pay unless I have to, and after I find a good product I might be willing to pay for without the police forcing me to pay, I wait until I find some (imo) reason to not pay. don't pay to support the company, pay because you got a product worth paying for, even if you were not forced to pay for it. Disclaimer... I do not work for Mandrakesoft, I am a customer. Pity, that MDK spoiled it right away with their announcement. Cheerio, Thomas I guess they will have to find someone else that will freeload in your place,,, I here there are plenty of freeloaders,,, but it was customers MDK was trying to find, or so I heard -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
T. Ribbrock schrieb am Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:00:05 +0200: Recently, I've been considering whether MDK is worth my while in that regard, but with current developments, I don't feel they are. You ever considered asking whether *you* are worth Mandrake's while? As a sales rep I'd let you just go and turn to the next customer. On sales rep's terms you're just stealing time. I've been reading your somewhat shrewed viewpoints on reality for a while but did not find anything worth Mandrake's while. Oh, short one on reality: I have a simple way to look at it. If a product is good, that means: if it is good *for me* I'll buy it. Nothing else matters. I listen to the sales rep or read the ads and the reviews and then I buy. If I give an Euro to a guy who sells matches in the snow that's a Good Thing(TM) but then I don't care what the matches are like. You want the cheap matches and go after the guy if there is one less than it says on the package. Bah. wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
T. Ribbrock schrieb am Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:09:04 +0200: I sincerely hope, that MDK is never forced to go down that route. I think you are mixing MandrakeSoft and Debian. MandrakeSoft has a different business model than Red Hat or SuSE but they are still a company which has to hand out pay checks each month (mine was a bit late this month!). If they do what they say on their site, like looking on different business models to check how they are compatible to our commitment to Open Source and Free Software the this is absolutely ok. And what road Mandrake goes down is in the future, nobody can tell. But consider this: As a company head, would you have sold Mandrake last February to a bidder? Mandrake management did not sell when the going got tough. This is one point we should all bear in mind. If Mandrake management would have preferred the easy way out, we would all be using Debian now :-) wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
T. Ribbrock wrote: On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 07:49:30AM -0700, Rolf Pedersen wrote: Do you even use Mandrake? Yup, I have 9.1 on one of my machines. That's why I considered buying 9.2. MDK lost that sale. A product does not materialize out of thin air: it takes money for the people who produce it to live, no? What other products are you able to consume without recompense until you decide it comes up to your standards sufficiently to pay for it? Reality check: That's called free market. If the product on offer doesn't suit my needs/interests/whatever, I don't buy it. Simple 101 of marketing. That only gets me into trouble if there's no alternative - which is not the case here. Some must pay for what many take for free, be it advertisers or Club members. I wonder what percentage of the complainers about the ads actually support Mandrake with cash versus the percentage who complain merely because they would rather take without being reminded of the obligation. That's exactly my point: MDK has taken away the obligation by making money of the download edition (nothing wrong with that) *and* making extra money besides the purchase price of the boxed version. Hence, my motivation to buy the boxed version is gone. Or, to put into other words: If MDK feels the need of forcing ads on paying customers, I have no interest in supporting them anymore. I do feel that I put my point poorly yesterday. I'm actually frustrated. I'm a long time RH user (since 4.1, i.e. 1996/97) and in that time, there still was spirit in them. By now, I never went beyond RH 7.3, as I don't like current developments, so I went looking for alternatives. MDK seemed interesting, not only because of a good product, but also because of the setup (Club etc., though most likely I won't need it). On the other hand, I don't go round spending money to support companies without observing what's going on for a while. Pity, that MDK spoiled it right away with their announcement. Cheerio, Thomas We have differing views of reality. I ask again, in what other part of the 'free market' are you allowed to consume a product without paying for it? Please answer that. Too many times, especially around release, vocal critics proclaim their intention to support Mandrake has been eliminated by some act on Mandrake's part or some deficiency in the product. These same critics are there at every release. My view is that, instead of doing their part to support Mandrake with the cash that is needed to continue to produce product, they jump on the freeloader's bandwagon where the only ticket to ride is to arbitrarily slam one aspect of Mandrake or another, while continuing to download and use the distro for free. [1] In my view, linux started with, obviously, one person, Linus Torvalds: http://ragib.hypermart.net/linux/ His code was shared with a few, then more, then many co-developers on the internet. At first, linux was available only to those who could write code and who did this in their spare time, supporting themselves in other ways. Since then, it has grown to an internationally-distributed product that is enjoyed by a whole spectrum of people, most of whom cannot contribute code. There are many who still contribute their time but that is not going to go on forever. The majority of users who don't have the skills to help with development will have to contribute with cash in order for the current level of development and availability to continue. Linux is in a state of transition from the pastime of the few who create it to a commercial product of value for the whole spectrum of the computer/appliance-using world. As part of that process, individuals have invested their own lives and money into creating companies, such as Mandrake, that provide a product that is useable by a variety of people: http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/about For the process to continue, there must be a cash flow that sustains it. It's your choice. Join the Club: http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Make a contribution of at least a dollar: http://www.linux-mandrake.com/donations/ Hope that ads or some other marketing innovation will pay the way for you. Rolf [1] http://www.water-cool.com/modules.php?op=modloadname=Newsfile=articlesid=17 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
T. Ribbrock wrote: On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 11:59:12AM -0400, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote: Do you ever watch sports? Take the US Open that just wrapped up last weekend. With the name *J.P. MorganChase* is plastered all over the walls of the courts in Arthur Ash stadium with the *IBM* scoreboard high above the crowd Andy Roddick received the US Open trophy along with a check for $1,000,000 from *Ford Motor Company* while wearing an outfit from *Reebok*. Afterwards you are taken to commercials by *Citizen*, [...] When I see this kind of sponsorship for an event I don't get the impressions that this is a sign of a horrible product that needs to be propped up by various thrid parties. I get the impression that people want to be associated with the event because of the benefits of the association. [...] See, here our perceptions differ. When I see sport events plastered with advertisement in that way, it looks to me as if the only thing it's about is *money*, not sport. So, yes: Apparently, the actualy product is *poor*. That perception gets even worse when I see how much influence the so called sponsors try to gain on the sport they sponsor. I've heard enought discussions about wishes for rule changes to make the sport look nicer on TV so the ads get seen better. Puh-lease! I sincerely hope, that MDK is never forced to go down that route. Cheerio, Thomas You are right in that the sponsors are only interested in money. Imagine that! They sponsor a highly visible event to make a profit. How unethical could they possibly be!?!? Enlighten me on how sponsorship of anything means that the product is poor. Especially when the sponsorship is being used to make both the *sponsor* and the *entitiy sponsored* money. As far as the requests for rule changes goes...so what? Here's a little info on how a true free market works. I have the freedom to approach you and to say, I'd like you to pay me to kick you in the crotch every Sunday afternoon. Because you are also part of this free market you have the freedom to say, That sounds like a really good idea, but you know...I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. The fact that I asked to do it does not mean that the request has to be honored. How do you expect Mandrake to be able to support itself, and to keep giving you a monetarily free product with an incredible intrinsic value, when all people with your mindset do is bitch when ever they have the perception that Mandrake might *possibly* do something that *might* not be in your best interest irespective of whether or not the doors will close if they don't take that *horribly offensive* action? I've never seen a more childish reaction, by mostly grown adults, to anything in my life. If you don't like the product, as you've said you can do, go somewhere where they provide a *better* product. This will obviously suck for you if there is no better product. There seems to be a whole lot of complaining without a whole lot of constructive suggestions for alternative means of getting revenue. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Linux user #322847 | Linux machine #207465 | http://counter.li.org/ AMD Duron 1.3GHz | Mandrake 9.1 | Kernel 2.4.21-0.16mm-mdk KDE 3.1.3 | Mozilla 1.4 Mail Client Uptime: 16:45:00 up 7 days, 4:01, 1 user, load average: 0.32, 0.14, 0.10 ___ All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 05:33:06AM -0400, Lee Wiggers wrote: Let's see if I understand this. Mdk sells advertising for megabucks to companies who want to reach mdk users. Mdk users simply avoid gui install and avoid adverts. So the logical next step is? Right: Remove the text install (or add text based adds...)... :-) Cheerio, Thomas -- - Thomas Ribbrockhttp://www.ribbrock.org You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 02:56:38PM +0300, Paul wrote: [...] I take this to mean that, once set up, the default screen-saver will display ads, rather than ads in the install. No, both. If I interpret Mandrake's statement correctly (URL in first mail of this thread), installer ads, ad bookmarks and default ad homepages will be in all distros. Screensave ads will only be in the download version. Logical conclusion: Don't buy Mandrake distros at all. Download them, remove the ads, be happy. As they're getting money that way anyway, I have even less reason to buy a box, *especially*, as the boxed version isn't even fully ad-free. Cheerio, Thomas -- - Thomas Ribbrockhttp://www.ribbrock.org You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:15:48 +0200, T. Ribbrock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Logical conclusion: Don't buy Mandrake distros at all. Download them, remove the ads, be happy. As they're getting money that way anyway, I have even less reason to buy a box, *especially*, as the boxed version isn't even fully ad-free. How is that a logical conclusion? Just because MDK has another revenue source doesn't mean they need your purchases/contributions any less. If you want the download version, great, but if you care about MDK you should still be/continue to be a Club member if your budget allows. Miark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Miark wrote: On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:15:48 +0200, T. Ribbrock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Logical conclusion: Don't buy Mandrake distros at all. Download them, remove the ads, be happy. As they're getting money that way anyway, I have even less reason to buy a box, *especially*, as the boxed version isn't even fully ad-free. How is that a logical conclusion? Just because MDK has another revenue source doesn't mean they need your purchases/contributions any less. Apparently they don't, as they're making purchasing the box less attractive - to me in any case. I was thinking about buying 9.2 (I just tested 9.1, coming from Red Hat, and was reasonably happy with what I saw), but under these circumstances I don't see why. If the boxed version was completely ad-free, I *would* buy it. If you want the download version, great, but if you care about MDK you should still be/continue to be a Club member if your budget allows. It's a company and I'm not a charity. Make the product worthwhile buying and I buy. As for my bad concience: I don't even have a reason for that anymore, as Mandrake does get money either way now. And if I really want to support something, I rather spend money on true volunteer efforts, like e.g. buying OpenBSD CDs (now there's something I definitely won't download). Cheerio, Thomas -- - Thomas Ribbrockhttp://www.ribbrock.org You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
T. Ribbrock wrote: On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Miark wrote: On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:15:48 +0200, T. Ribbrock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Logical conclusion: Don't buy Mandrake distros at all. Download them, remove the ads, be happy. As they're getting money that way anyway, I have even less reason to buy a box, *especially*, as the boxed version isn't even fully ad-free. How is that a logical conclusion? Just because MDK has another revenue source doesn't mean they need your purchases/contributions any less. Apparently they don't, as they're making purchasing the box less attractive - to me in any case. I was thinking about buying 9.2 (I just tested 9.1, coming from Red Hat, and was reasonably happy with what I saw), but under these circumstances I don't see why. If the boxed version was completely ad-free, I *would* buy it. If you want the download version, great, but if you care about MDK you should still be/continue to be a Club member if your budget allows. It's a company and I'm not a charity. Make the product worthwhile buying and I buy. Do you even use Mandrake? A product does not materialize out of thin air: it takes money for the people who produce it to live, no? What other products are you able to consume without recompense until you decide it comes up to your standards sufficiently to pay for it? Some must pay for what many take for free, be it advertisers or Club members. I wonder what percentage of the complainers about the ads actually support Mandrake with cash versus the percentage who complain merely because they would rather take without being reminded of the obligation. As for my bad concience: I don't even have a reason for that anymore, as Mandrake does get money either way now. And if I really want to support something, I rather spend money on true volunteer efforts, like e.g. buying OpenBSD CDs (now there's something I definitely won't download). Cheerio, Thomas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:21:34 +0200, T. Ribbrock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How is that a logical conclusion? Just because MDK has another revenue source doesn't mean they need your purchases/contributions any less. Apparently they don't, as they're making purchasing the box less attractive - to me in any case. I was thinking about buying 9.2 (I just tested 9.1, coming from Red Hat, and was reasonably happy with what I saw), but under these circumstances I don't see why. If the boxed version was completely ad-free, I *would* buy it. This reminds me of single issue voters I've heard so much about. You probably like urpmi more than up2date, the Drak tools more than Red Hat's tools, the MDK support lists more than the Red Hat lists, and MDKs goal of making Linux easier to use for newbies... but you're more inclined to reward Red Hat because of what they _don't_ do. With all due respect, that strikes me as petty. And if I really want to support something, I rather spend money on true volunteer efforts, like e.g. buying OpenBSD CDs (now there's something I definitely won't download). Now if you've got only so much to give (as we all do) and you choose to give it to a project that operates strictly by volunteer efforts, hey, you have my blessing ;-) Miark Aspiring BSD Developer Please send PayPal donations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
T. Ribbrock wrote: On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Miark wrote: On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:15:48 +0200, T. Ribbrock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Logical conclusion: Don't buy Mandrake distros at all. Download them, remove the ads, be happy. As they're getting money that way anyway, I have even less reason to buy a box, *especially*, as the boxed version isn't even fully ad-free. How is that a logical conclusion? Just because MDK has another revenue source doesn't mean they need your purchases/contributions any less. Apparently they don't, as they're making purchasing the box less attractive - to me in any case. I was thinking about buying 9.2 (I just tested 9.1, coming from Red Hat, and was reasonably happy with what I saw), but under these circumstances I don't see why. If the boxed version was completely ad-free, I *would* buy it. If you want the download version, great, but if you care about MDK you should still be/continue to be a Club member if your budget allows. It's a company and I'm not a charity. Make the product worthwhile buying and I buy. As for my bad concience: I don't even have a reason for that anymore, as Mandrake does get money either way now. And if I really want to support something, I rather spend money on true volunteer efforts, like e.g. buying OpenBSD CDs (now there's something I definitely won't download). Cheerio, Thomas I had to post this to Cooker. Apparently it needs to be posted here as well. Do you ever watch sports? Take the US Open that just wrapped up last weekend. With the name *J.P. MorganChase* is plastered all over the walls of the courts in Arthur Ash stadium with the *IBM* scoreboard high above the crowd Andy Roddick received the US Open trophy along with a check for $1,000,000 from *Ford Motor Company* while wearing an outfit from *Reebok*. Afterwards you are taken to commercials by *Citizen*, *Heineken*, *Olympus*, *MassMutual*, etc. You can read all about the tournament by going to usopen.org where you will see adds for *Princess Cruises*, *IBM*, *USTA.com*, *American Express*, *Lincoln*(Ford Motor Company), *George Forman*, etc.. Does this mean that the tournament can't support itself without outside involvement even though they are making sales of tickets to the tournament? Not neccesarily. Does it mean that they now what makes money and take advantage of that knowledge. You're damn right it does. Does it mean that they have a bad product? No it doesn't. It means that they are smart enough to use the avenues that are available to them to make as much money as possible. It provides them revenue as well as the sponsors. When I see this kind of sponsorship for an event I don't get the impressions that this is a sign of a horrible product that needs to be propped up by various thrid parties. I get the impression that people want to be associated with the event because of the benefits of the association. Is it really a good idea to deny Mandrake the same type of revenue source because of an incorrect impression of advertising? -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Linux user #322847 | Linux machine #207465 | http://counter.li.org/ AMD Duron 1.3GHz | Mandrake 9.1 | Kernel 2.4.21-0.16mm-mdk KDE 3.1.3 | Mozilla 1.4 Mail Client Uptime: 11:55:00 up 5 days, 23:11, 1 user, load average: 0.09, 0.29, 0.40 ___ All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Friday 12 September 2003 17:59, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote: Is it really a good idea to deny Mandrake the same type of revenue source because of an incorrect impression of advertising? I have my doubts whether it's only that. I think a lot of people actually like the stigma of Linux being difficult and special. By putting in ads it looses some of it's undergroundish glamour. Let's put one thing straight: The Mdk download edition has always been as GPL as possible. It factually is, but I'm taking into consideration that it originated because of the Trolltech license strife at the time.offering KDE where others wouldn't. That will not change by including ads, it's a way of being able to keep on offering it free of charge where others like Suse have already jumped the train or are in danger of dwindling into oblivion like Slackware. I think it's a hell of alot better idea than the one that always comes up every new edition; To hold the dload version until the boxed version is shipped. That really is stupid and in it's way spiteful to boot. The more I think of it the more I like it, these ads:o) Good luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: (OT)Mandrake and Advertising.
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 08:54, Miark wrote: On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:21:34 +0200, T. Ribbrock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How is that a logical conclusion? Just because MDK has another revenue source doesn't mean they need your purchases/contributions any less. Apparently they don't, as they're making purchasing the box less attractive - to me in any case. I was thinking about buying 9.2 (I just tested 9.1, coming from Red Hat, and was reasonably happy with what I saw), but under these circumstances I don't see why. If the boxed version was completely ad-free, I *would* buy it. This reminds me of single issue voters I've heard so much about. You probably like urpmi more than up2date, the Drak tools more than Red Hat's tools, the MDK support lists more than the Red Hat lists, and MDKs goal of making Linux easier to use for newbies... but you're more inclined to reward Red Hat because of what they _don't_ do. With all due respect, that strikes me as petty. And if I really want to support something, I rather spend money on true volunteer efforts, like e.g. buying OpenBSD CDs (now there's something I definitely won't download). Now if you've got only so much to give (as we all do) and you choose to give it to a project that operates strictly by volunteer efforts, hey, you have my blessing ;-) Miark, I have a feeling he won't download OpenBSD for the same reason I won't. The CD version gives me a much higher level of feel good about security. Once I vet the CD as being solid I know when I install it every install will be 100% highjack free, and installed and hardened before it reaches out and touches the internet. Personally I've a really novel idea on how to make money. Make the product available in stores, (oooh ahhh shock!) I mean heck it works for RedHat SuSE and Slackware. Yes I know MDK won't get 100% of the money. So what. If I buy a head of lettuce the farmer doesn't get 100% of the money either. But he/she can sell a lot more lettuce and make a lot more money than if they had a single roadside stand. A little bit a lot of times really adds up. I remember in High School a friend of mine wanted to put a Holly Double Pumper on his car. (large expensive carburetor) He did it by spending the first half of the school year asking everyone if they had any pennies. A whole lot of requests later he had the $150.00 for the part, one penny at a time. (this is 1972 btw) James Miark Aspiring BSD Developer Please send PayPal donations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
