Re: [expert] Free programming language
May I take the liberty to inform also on the existence of other free languages, although absolutely not fashionable nowadays? I suggest SNOBOL and ICON. They were both originally designed by Dr Ralph E. Griswold (Arizona). I still prefer the former, but Icon is very much preferable to those who are used to the syntax of standard-structured languages as C or Pascal. The main field of application of these languages is string scanning and parsing, but they can also be used as general purpose. One advantage of Icon is that graphics need no libraries -- graphics capabilities are internal to the language -- so you can easily write a program for Linux and, if you want, compile another version for Windows without changing a single line of code. Links (1) Snobol http://people.ne.mediaone.net/philbudne/snobol.html Here is Phil Budne's [EMAIL PROTECTED] free Snobol interpreter, with all the extension of Spitbol (a more modern version of the language, not running on Linux). See also http://www.snobol4.com/ for Mark Emmer's Snobol page. (2) Icon http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/ is the starting point. See also http://www.nmt.edu/tcc/help/lang/icon/ and http://icon.cs.unlv.edu/ Another version, named unicon, is being developed, and in the first page listed above you'll find information on a Java porting of this language. All of this is obviously free. I have been using these languages for several purposed, including musical analysis, and I find them very useful for my programming needs. I am no professional programmer. Best from Italy, guido -- E-Mail: Guido Milanese [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vocal Ensemble Ars Antiqua, Genova, Italia Homepage: http://www.arsantiqua.org + + + + + + NON NOBIS DOMINE + + + + + + + --
Re: [expert] Free programming language
Hi there, On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Alexander Skwar wrote: So sprach Laurent Duperval am Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:51:45PM -0500: Tcl. It's under the BSD license meaning you can do pretty much what you want Okay, so it is even more liberal. with it. Perl is under the Artistic license. Perl is under both AFAIK. Lemme rephrase my question: Are there any programming languages included that are under a less liberal license than the GPL, and that are only under this license? Without wishing to push this into the kind of sensitive issue that gets GNU puppies all fired up, what kind of license do you imagine a programming language (implementation) could be under that would be less liberal than GPL? Obviously, commercial/royalty-based implementations aside (I doubt they would make it onto a Mandrake distribution) ... GPL is pretty viral and harsh, and if it isn't telling you to do things you don't want to do, I doubt very much you will have any problem with a BSD, artistic, or other kind of license. Anyway - what's perhaps more curious is why the license attached to a programming language should matter? AFAIK, no implementations of a programming language have any bearing over what license you are allowed to distribute your code or programs with. And if its on the Mandrake CD, there's a good chance you are allowed to use it and so is anyone else that you ask to load up the same tools. Perhaps the biggest risk in all this is that you may wish to distribute a self-contained package including any required libraries and this may involve re-distributing libraries from language implementations? If that's what you're asking - good question, I look forward to seeing the answers myself. :-) Cheers, Geoff
Re: [expert] Free programming language
On 29 Jan, Alexander Skwar wrote: So sprach SJN am Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 12:21:49AM +0800: GPL is good. In fact, I wish to know the programming language that fall under it like gcc et cetera. Hmmm, which of the programming languages comming with Mandrake do *NOT* fall under the GPL? Is there one? Tcl. It's under the BSD license meaning you can do pretty much what you want with it. Perl is under the Artistic license. L -- MY EMAIL ADDRESS HAS CHANGED -- UPDATE YOUR ADDRESSBOOK Laurent Duperval "Montreal winters are an intelligence test, Netergy Networks - Java Centerand we who are here have failed it." Phone: (514) 282-8484 ext. 228 -Doug Camilli mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Penguin Power!
Re: [expert] Free programming language
So sprach Ron Stodden am Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 05:58:39AM +1100: Errr... There is an fps RPM in cooker, but not in the 7.2 Whoops, did not check that :] Sorry! Still it is nice to know what's coming, thanks! (Like you don't know already :]) Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die guenstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 0 hours 44 minutes
Re: [expert] Free programming language
So sprach Laurent Duperval am Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:51:45PM -0500: Tcl. It's under the BSD license meaning you can do pretty much what you want Okay, so it is even more liberal. with it. Perl is under the Artistic license. Perl is under both AFAIK. Lemme rephrase my question: Are there any programming languages included that are under a less liberal license than the GPL, and that are only under this license? Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die guenstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 0 hours 45 minutes
Re: [expert] Free programming language
Well, we have ALMOST all the Free(not free) stuff off the first two disks of our distro. If you run an expert install, you should find a host of languages, including, but not limited to: Python Perl Tcl/Tk Ruby Mercury OCAML Haskell Scheme Guile Lisp Fortran77 (via a translator to c) Pascal(via a translator to c called p2c) c/c++ nasm SmallEiffel several others, even (yecch) basic, all under free licenses or we don't put them on I think the fortran 77 (g77) is a true compiler (in fact is one of the frontends of the gnu compiler). And I agree with the python coment, apart of what is already mentioned it is very easy to build interfaces to c/c++ almost automatically using swig and with fortran using f2py... it is a great tool indeed -- Jaime Perea - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Instituto de Astrofsica de Andaluca. CSIC
Re: [expert] Free programming language
So sprach SJN am Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 12:21:49AM +0800: GPL is good. In fact, I wish to know the programming language that fall under it like gcc et cetera. Hmmm, which of the programming languages comming with Mandrake do *NOT* fall under the GPL? Is there one? Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die guenstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 16 hours 55 minutes
Re: [expert] Free programming language
So sprach civileme am Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 06:06:52PM +0100: Pascal(via a translator to c called p2c) What about fpc? It's also in the distribution. fpc stands for "Free Pascal Compiler" and is just that :] It also tries to be as Delphi compatible as possible. So for pascal users, this might be the first choice. Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die guenstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 16 hours 52 minutes
Re: [expert] Free programming language
Alexander Skwar wrote: What about fpc? It's also in the distribution. fpc stands for "Free Pascal Compiler" and is just that :] It also tries to be as Delphi compatible as possible. So for pascal users, this might be the first choice. Errr... There is an fps RPM in cooker, but not in the 7.2 distribution or the 'unsupported' updates to 7.2 This is the Expert (ie 7.2 support) list not the Cooker list. Still it is nice to know what's coming, thanks! -- Regards, Ron. [AU]
Re: [expert] Free programming language
On Friday 26 January 2001 08:16, you wrote: Hi Linuxians, I need a list of free programming language and scripting language available for Linux. Free as in for any purpose. Don't want any hanky panky free license. Huh? If you mean GPL, it is there to prevent ugly little comedies like theft of someone's college homework program making a commercial killing significant enough to produce some of the world's richest folks. Perl has two licenses and you may use either. The only restriction on the free license is that if you modify/distribute the software you obtained under the license, you have to pass on the freedoms to use, modify, distribute and distribute modified versions to those you distribute to as well. If you did a development install of GNU/LM, you have many of the languages on your machine. Others are available by searching www.freshmeat.net, www.google.com, and www.sourceforge.com. In addition, you might want to try searching "computer operating systems" because there are other experimental systems out there--lots of them, that often have pet languages. Many of those systems and languages are totally free--uncopyrighted and ready to be exploited, free as in beer, not as in speech. Civileme If anybody have it, can you pass me the list together with where to obtain them. Thanks very much in advance. Joe RLU #186063
RE: [expert] Free programming language
He's right. Anything YOU create in C (or C++ or Perl or whatever) belongs to YOU, regardless of who wrote the compiler/interpreter. Understand, though, that any libraries you dynamically link to (or perl modules) of course aren't your own, and may fall under some other license. Just because you develop with OSS doesn't mean that you have to produce OSS. I take it you want to create something to be sold? For a scripting style language (quick prototyping and useful in cgi), I recommend perl. There are others, but none with perl's flexibility. There are even compilers now to turn perl into machine code. How nice, eh? For programming, take your pick, but Mandrake comes with gcc, which is thier ANSI compliant C compiler. If you use that, all your C or C++ (use gcc++ for that) programming books from school will be worth something. Derek Stark IT / Linux Admin eSupportNow xt 8952 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of civileme Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Free programming language On Friday 26 January 2001 08:16, you wrote: Hi Linuxians, I need a list of free programming language and scripting language available for Linux. Free as in for any purpose. Don't want any hanky panky free license. Huh? If you mean GPL, it is there to prevent ugly little comedies like theft of someone's college homework program making a commercial killing significant enough to produce some of the world's richest folks. Perl has two licenses and you may use either. The only restriction on the free license is that if you modify/distribute the software you obtained under the license, you have to pass on the freedoms to use, modify, distribute and distribute modified versions to those you distribute to as well. If you did a development install of GNU/LM, you have many of the languages on your machine. Others are available by searching www.freshmeat.net, www.google.com, and www.sourceforge.com. In addition, you might want to try searching "computer operating systems" because there are other experimental systems out there--lots of them, that often have pet languages. Many of those systems and languages are totally free--uncopyrighted and ready to be exploited, free as in beer, not as in speech. Civileme If anybody have it, can you pass me the list together with where to obtain them. Thanks very much in advance. Joe RLU #186063
RE: [expert] Free programming language
There are even compilers now to turn perl into machine code. How nice, eh? Silly question maybe, do the same sort of things exist for Tcl/Tk ? Thanks, Thomas.
RE: [expert] Free programming language
Interesting question for which I have no answer. Here's the tcl home page. If such a beast exsists, it'll be here: http://www.scriptics.com/ Derek Stark IT / Linux Admin eSupportNow xt 8952 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Thomas Sourmail Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 8:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [expert] Free programming language There are even compilers now to turn perl into machine code. How nice, eh? Silly question maybe, do the same sort of things exist for Tcl/Tk ? Thanks, Thomas.
Re: [expert] Free programming language
Try: http://icemcfd.com/tcl/ice.html There are even compilers now to turn perl into machine code. How nice, eh? Silly question maybe, do the same sort of things exist for Tcl/Tk ? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] "They said I was mad; and I said they were mad; damn them, they outvoted me" - Nathaniel Lee
RE: [expert] Free programming language
Thanks for the reply. Actually I am trying to avoid falling into a quicksand. I don't want later when I have written the program in a specific linux-based programmig language, the original author of the programming language impose royalty or license fee. I have bought a commercial development kit last time where i end only using 0.1% of its capability. I'm not a good programmer. Looking at it I don't want to chunk out huge some of money to invest in a commercial language that i won't fully utilise. And certainly I don't want to fall into the trap of "free license" and i don't mean GPL here. I remember coming across a "free license" agreement that is really NOT free at all. have a nice day fellow linuxians :) Joe RLU# 186063 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of D. Stark - eSN Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [expert] Free programming language He's right. Anything YOU create in C (or C++ or Perl or whatever) belongs to YOU, regardless of who wrote the compiler/interpreter. Understand, though, that any libraries you dynamically link to (or perl modules) of course aren't your own, and may fall under some other license. Just because you develop with OSS doesn't mean that you have to produce OSS. I take it you want to create something to be sold? For a scripting style language (quick prototyping and useful in cgi), I recommend perl. There are others, but none with perl's flexibility. There are even compilers now to turn perl into machine code. How nice, eh? For programming, take your pick, but Mandrake comes with gcc, which is thier ANSI compliant C compiler. If you use that, all your C or C++ (use gcc++ for that) programming books from school will be worth something. Derek Stark IT / Linux Admin eSupportNow xt 8952 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of civileme Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Free programming language On Friday 26 January 2001 08:16, you wrote: Hi Linuxians, I need a list of free programming language and scripting language available for Linux. Free as in for any purpose. Don't want any hanky panky free license. Huh? If you mean GPL, it is there to prevent ugly little comedies like theft of someone's college homework program making a commercial killing significant enough to produce some of the world's richest folks. Perl has two licenses and you may use either. The only restriction on the free license is that if you modify/distribute the software you obtained under the license, you have to pass on the freedoms to use, modify, distribute and distribute modified versions to those you distribute to as well. If you did a development install of GNU/LM, you have many of the languages on your machine. Others are available by searching www.freshmeat.net, www.google.com, and www.sourceforge.com. In addition, you might want to try searching "computer operating systems" because there are other experimental systems out there--lots of them, that often have pet languages. Many of those systems and languages are totally free--uncopyrighted and ready to be exploited, free as in beer, not as in speech. Civileme If anybody have it, can you pass me the list together with where to obtain them. Thanks very much in advance. Joe RLU #186063
Re: [expert] Free programming language
On Friday 26 January 2001 17:21, you wrote: Thanks for the reply. Actually I am trying to avoid falling into a quicksand. I don't want later when I have written the program in a specific linux-based programmig language, the original author of the programming language impose royalty or license fee. I have bought a commercial development kit last time where i end only using 0.1% of its capability. I'm not a good programmer. Looking at it I don't want to chunk out huge some of money to invest in a commercial language that i won't fully utilise. And certainly I don't want to fall into the trap of "free license" and i don't mean GPL here. I remember coming across a "free license" agreement that is really NOT free at all. have a nice day fellow linuxians :) Joe RLU# 186063 Well, we have ALMOST all the Free(not free) stuff off the first two disks of our distro. If you run an expert install, you should find a host of languages, including, but not limited to: Python Perl Tcl/Tk Ruby Mercury OCAML Haskell Scheme Guile Lisp Fortran77 (via a translator to c) Pascal(via a translator to c called p2c) c/c++ nasm SmallEiffel several others, even (yecch) basic, all under free licenses or we don't put them on If you have done little programming and want one that is simple to start with but has a lot of power, I would recommend Python. It has inherently clean code and oject-oriented features, and with the aid of its extensive libraries and bindings, power similar to the best. I use it in preference to Perl because six months later I can still figure out how the code relates to the task just by reading it. Python is also available on a lot of platforms including windows, but it is more fun to program in linux where the emacs bindings make block structure so easy to handle. I heard someone did a similar Python editor for Windows, with autoindentation and delimiter highlighting and neat color-coding of statement and data types, but I have never seen it. Civileme You may not find these on the "Complete" edition, but you will find them on download and Power Pack.
RE: [expert] Free programming language
I'm fairly certain that egcs (the GPL gcc included) does not require you to hand out your source...only source to CHANGES you've made to egcs. While I'm thinking about it, Debian includes egcs, and if its in Debian, its most certainly free as in beer. Read the README that comes with it; it'll say for sure. Might also be worth your time to read the GPL if you're truly concerned. Also, this is a perfectly valid thing to ask the compiler developers. Derek Stark IT / Linux Admin eSupportNow xt 8952 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of SJN Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 11:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [expert] Free programming language Thanks for the reply. Actually I am trying to avoid falling into a quicksand. I don't want later when I have written the program in a specific linux-based programmig language, the original author of the programming language impose royalty or license fee. I have bought a commercial development kit last time where i end only using 0.1% of its capability. I'm not a good programmer. Looking at it I don't want to chunk out huge some of money to invest in a commercial language that i won't fully utilise. And certainly I don't want to fall into the trap of "free license" and i don't mean GPL here. I remember coming across a "free license" agreement that is really NOT free at all. have a nice day fellow linuxians :) Joe RLU# 186063 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of D. Stark - eSN Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [expert] Free programming language He's right. Anything YOU create in C (or C++ or Perl or whatever) belongs to YOU, regardless of who wrote the compiler/interpreter. Understand, though, that any libraries you dynamically link to (or perl modules) of course aren't your own, and may fall under some other license. Just because you develop with OSS doesn't mean that you have to produce OSS. I take it you want to create something to be sold? For a scripting style language (quick prototyping and useful in cgi), I recommend perl. There are others, but none with perl's flexibility. There are even compilers now to turn perl into machine code. How nice, eh? For programming, take your pick, but Mandrake comes with gcc, which is thier ANSI compliant C compiler. If you use that, all your C or C++ (use gcc++ for that) programming books from school will be worth something. Derek Stark IT / Linux Admin eSupportNow xt 8952 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of civileme Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Free programming language On Friday 26 January 2001 08:16, you wrote: Hi Linuxians, I need a list of free programming language and scripting language available for Linux. Free as in for any purpose. Don't want any hanky panky free license. Huh? If you mean GPL, it is there to prevent ugly little comedies like theft of someone's college homework program making a commercial killing significant enough to produce some of the world's richest folks. Perl has two licenses and you may use either. The only restriction on the free license is that if you modify/distribute the software you obtained under the license, you have to pass on the freedoms to use, modify, distribute and distribute modified versions to those you distribute to as well. If you did a development install of GNU/LM, you have many of the languages on your machine. Others are available by searching www.freshmeat.net, www.google.com, and www.sourceforge.com. In addition, you might want to try searching "computer operating systems" because there are other experimental systems out there--lots of them, that often have pet languages. Many of those systems and languages are totally free--uncopyrighted and ready to be exploited, free as in beer, not as in speech. Civileme If anybody have it, can you pass me the list together with where to obtain them. Thanks very much in advance. Joe RLU #186063
Re: [expert] Free programming language
On Friday 26 January 2001 12:06, you wrote: If you have done little programming and want one that is simple to start with but has a lot of power, I would recommend Python. It has inherently clean code and oject-oriented features, and with the aid of its extensive libraries and bindings, power similar to the best. I use it in preference to Perl because six months later I can still figure out how the code relates to the task just by reading it. Python is also available on a lot of platforms including windows, but it is more fun to program in linux where the emacs bindings make block structure so easy to handle. I heard someone did a similar Python editor for Windows, with autoindentation and delimiter highlighting and neat color-coding of statement and data types, but I have never seen it. I fully agree with the python plug. and there is a python ide actually written in python, it's called idle and is part of the tkinter package (and works on windows too) -- Alex (Go easy on me, I'm a COBOL programmer in real life)
RE: [expert] Free programming language
Thanks a lot. I'll check with the distro disks. Joe RLU# 186063 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of civileme Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 1:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Free programming language On Friday 26 January 2001 17:21, you wrote: Thanks for the reply. Actually I am trying to avoid falling into a quicksand. I don't want later when I have written the program in a specific linux-based programmig language, the original author of the programming language impose royalty or license fee. I have bought a commercial development kit last time where i end only using 0.1% of its capability. I'm not a good programmer. Looking at it I don't want to chunk out huge some of money to invest in a commercial language that i won't fully utilise. And certainly I don't want to fall into the trap of "free license" and i don't mean GPL here. I remember coming across a "free license" agreement that is really NOT free at all. have a nice day fellow linuxians :) Joe RLU# 186063 Well, we have ALMOST all the Free(not free) stuff off the first two disks of our distro. If you run an expert install, you should find a host of languages, including, but not limited to: Python Perl Tcl/Tk Ruby Mercury OCAML Haskell Scheme Guile Lisp Fortran77 (via a translator to c) Pascal(via a translator to c called p2c) c/c++ nasm SmallEiffel several others, even (yecch) basic, all under free licenses or we don't put them on If you have done little programming and want one that is simple to start with but has a lot of power, I would recommend Python. It has inherently clean code and oject-oriented features, and with the aid of its extensive libraries and bindings, power similar to the best. I use it in preference to Perl because six months later I can still figure out how the code relates to the task just by reading it. Python is also available on a lot of platforms including windows, but it is more fun to program in linux where the emacs bindings make block structure so easy to handle. I heard someone did a similar Python editor for Windows, with autoindentation and delimiter highlighting and neat color-coding of statement and data types, but I have never seen it. Civileme You may not find these on the "Complete" edition, but you will find them on download and Power Pack.
