[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: I have read a bit of his [Adyashanti's] website, too (lots to listen to, most for free). One way he describes the purpose of his teaching is to help people understand what awakening is like, what it feels like, from an Experiential perspective. What it is like for an average person to awaken. Apparently, he does not want to be dealing with the experience from a spiritual or religious perspective - altho he draws on quotes from many traditions. He seems not to hype up how great awakening will be, but lays out the silence, the death of the ego/self, how day to day life feels after awakening. And he mentions that he gets many many calls and emails from people who are shifting into enlightenment and are really challenged by just what is going on. It seems really good that there is someone around who can ease the confusion. I also give Maharishi all the credit in the world (an understatement) for his work in describing the different states so clearly. TM'ers can take that for granted, when in fact we, or at least I, refer back to that knowledge as my basic understanding. I realize that it is all a construct or opinion about reality, but as Vasishta so beautifully says in your quote below, one needs to have the discussion of duality and non duality in order to come to know it is only a path. And Maharishi said the same - that the path is only a path. MMY's emphasis is heavy on the bliss and success in life. Sometimes I wonder if that is because there was even more that MMY experienced, perhaps something that had to do with the Vedic tradition. Or some final tweak that eventually occurs and that infuses the whole thing with something not-a-feeling but nevertheless ecstatic. (as opposed to Zen which keeps it rather plain). MMY said it was important to choose a tradition with heart, because once enlightened, that prior emphasis would color the experience in some way and affect behavior. I am not sure what he meant by heart but think it might have had to do with serving a guru. [Xeno wrote:] Vasistha to Rama: 'It is only the childish and ignorant people who talk of duality and non-duality; the enlightened ones laugh at all this. However, without such a discussion based on duality and non-duality it is not possible to clean one's consciousness of ignorance. It is only in that spirit that I have dealt with all this, dear friend.' Just a great quote. This is wonderful stuff Susan. I had not heard some of this about MMY before. I think I do not always grasp heart very well, being one with a bit over emphasis on the mind. I sense a lot of people focus on the teacher - religions seem to end up focusing on the teacher rather than what the teacher taught. Buddhists seem to focus more on heart as compassion, and directing that at all beings. Mother Theresa seemed to be about heart, but the private revelations that she was quite barren spiritually and emotionally throws a dark light on the idea that devotion, that is, appearance and activity that looks like devotion might not be appropriate for some people. That is my superficial contribution to the matter of heart.
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: I have read a bit of his [Adyashanti's] website, too (lots to listen to, most for free). One way he describes the purpose of his teaching is to help people understand what awakening is like, what it feels like, from an Experiential perspective. What it is like for an average person to awaken. Apparently, he does not want to be dealing with the experience from a spiritual or religious perspective - altho he draws on quotes from many traditions. He seems not to hype up how great awakening will be, but lays out the silence, the death of the ego/self, how day to day life feels after awakening. And he mentions that he gets many many calls and emails from people who are shifting into enlightenment and are really challenged by just what is going on. It seems really good that there is someone around who can ease the confusion. I also give Maharishi all the credit in the world (an understatement) for his work in describing the different states so clearly. TM'ers can take that for granted, when in fact we, or at least I, refer back to that knowledge as my basic understanding. I realize that it is all a construct or opinion about reality, but as Vasishta so beautifully says in your quote below, one needs to have the discussion of duality and non duality in order to come to know it is only a path. And Maharishi said the same - that the path is only a path. MMY's emphasis is heavy on the bliss and success in life. Sometimes I wonder if that is because there was even more that MMY experienced, perhaps something that had to do with the Vedic tradition. Or some final tweak that eventually occurs and that infuses the whole thing with something not-a-feeling but nevertheless ecstatic. (as opposed to Zen which keeps it rather plain). MMY said it was important to choose a tradition with heart, because once enlightened, that prior emphasis would color the experience in some way and affect behavior. I am not sure what he meant by heart but think it might have had to do with serving a guru. [Xeno wrote:] Vasistha to Rama: 'It is only the childish and ignorant people who talk of duality and non-duality; the enlightened ones laugh at all this. However, without such a discussion based on duality and non-duality it is not possible to clean one's consciousness of ignorance. It is only in that spirit that I have dealt with all this, dear friend.' Just a great quote. This is wonderful stuff Susan. I had not heard some of this about MMY before. I think I do not always grasp heart very well, being one with a bit over emphasis on the mind. I sense a lot of people focus on the teacher - religions seem to end up focusing on the teacher rather than what the teacher taught. Buddhists seem to focus more on heart as compassion, and directing that at all beings. Mother Theresa seemed to be about heart, but the private revelations that she was quite barren spiritually and emotionally throws a dark light on the idea that devotion, that is, appearance and activity that looks like devotion might not be appropriate for some people. That is my superficial contribution to the matter of heart. Yes, it was odd to read about Mother Teresa's depression. Our motivations for doing good are so varied. I am not totally clear on what Maharishi meant either. There are others on this forum with much better memories of all that MMY said, but in several lectures he talked about choosing a tradition with heart. As I recall, this was usually when he was talking about Guru Dev. Guru Dev apparently wandered and checked out many Masters before finally choosing his. He was looking for heart, not just a path to Enlgihenement, but one with heart as well. I always took that to mean that the teacher had a sense of compassion and also joy or humor and a lightness of attitude. But I could be wrong about this. MMY himself talked bout seeing Guru Dev for the first time and having his heart leap. But MMY definitely said that it helped to have the heart developed prior to Enlightenment. While he said enlightenment would change one's behavior or mean that you functioned spontaneously from the source of Being and Natural Law, he also implied that doing the work and making the changes before enlightenment was better, since after the Big E, there would not be the self-directed motivation to change at all. Spontaneously one would be doing the right thing once enlightened; however, the flavor of the person's remaining individuality - simply because you still have a body -is nicer with lots of heart. I take this to mean you can still be an intellectual, but heart makes it all more rich and fun (if those terms even apply at that point). Others
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: I have read a bit of his [Adyashanti's] website, too (lots to listen to, most for free). One way he describes the purpose of his teaching is to help people understand what awakening is like, what it feels like, from an Experiential perspective. What it is like for an average person to awaken. Apparently, he does not want to be dealing with the experience from a spiritual or religious perspective - altho he draws on quotes from many traditions. He seems not to hype up how great awakening will be, but lays out the silence, the death of the ego/self, how day to day life feels after awakening. And he mentions that he gets many many calls and emails from people who are shifting into enlightenment and are really challenged by just what is going on. It seems really good that there is someone around who can ease the confusion. I also give Maharishi all the credit in the world (an understatement) for his work in describing the different states so clearly. TM'ers can take that for granted, when in fact we, or at least I, refer back to that knowledge as my basic understanding. I realize that it is all a construct or opinion about reality, but as Vasishta so beautifully says in your quote below, one needs to have the discussion of duality and non duality in order to come to know it is only a path. And Maharishi said the same - that the path is only a path. MMY's emphasis is heavy on the bliss and success in life. Sometimes I wonder if that is because there was even more that MMY experienced, perhaps something that had to do with the Vedic tradition. Or some final tweak that eventually occurs and that infuses the whole thing with something not-a-feeling but nevertheless ecstatic. (as opposed to Zen which keeps it rather plain). MMY said it was important to choose a tradition with heart, because once enlightened, that prior emphasis would color the experience in some way and affect behavior. I am not sure what he meant by heart but think it might have had to do with serving a guru. [Xeno wrote:] Vasistha to Rama: 'It is only the childish and ignorant people who talk of duality and non-duality; the enlightened ones laugh at all this. However, without such a discussion based on duality and non-duality it is not possible to clean one's consciousness of ignorance. It is only in that spirit that I have dealt with all this, dear friend.' Just a great quote. This is wonderful stuff Susan. I had not heard some of this about MMY before. I think I do not always grasp heart very well, being one with a bit over emphasis on the mind. I sense a lot of people focus on the teacher - religions seem to end up focusing on the teacher rather than what the teacher taught. Buddhists seem to focus more on heart as compassion, and directing that at all beings. Mother Theresa seemed to be about heart, but the private revelations that she was quite barren spiritually and emotionally throws a dark light on the idea that devotion, that is, appearance and activity that looks like devotion might not be appropriate for some people. That is my superficial contribution to the matter of heart. Yes, it was odd to read about Mother Teresa's depression. Our motivations for doing good are so varied. I am not totally clear on what Maharishi meant either. There are others on this forum with much better memories of all that MMY said, but in several lectures he talked about choosing a tradition with heart. As I recall, this was usually when he was talking about Guru Dev. Guru Dev apparently wandered and checked out many Masters before finally choosing his. He was looking for heart, not just a path to Enlgihenement, but one with heart as well. I always took that to mean that the teacher had a sense of compassion and also joy or humor and a lightness of attitude. But I could be wrong about this. MMY himself talked bout seeing Guru Dev for the first time and having his heart leap. But MMY definitely said that it helped to have the heart developed prior to Enlightenment. While he said enlightenment would change one's behavior or mean that you functioned spontaneously from the source of Being and Natural Law, he also implied that doing the work and making the changes before enlightenment was better, since after the Big E, there would not be the self-directed motivation to change at all. Spontaneously one would be doing the right thing once enlightened; however, the flavor of the person's remaining individuality - simply because you still have a body -is nicer with lots of heart.
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: Another helpful book for me was Yoga Vasistha, but only some very small portions of it. Most spiritual tomes (and traditions) seem to be filled with a lot of padding. Look at it this way: if unity is what it is about, then there is just one thing you need to know. Vasistha to Rama: 'It is only the childish and ignorant people who talk of duality and non-duality; the enlightened ones laugh at all this. However, without such a discussion based on duality and non-duality it is not possible to clean one's consciousness of ignorance. It is only in that spirit that I have dealt with all this, dear friend.' Question put to Maharishi in the Assembly Hall, Seelisberg: Maharishi, do you like to be with us ? Maharishi; I would rather stay in my room and read Yoga Vashistha
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Yes, this is what it (kensho/satori) is like, no sense of center, the sense of individuality is totally obliterated. I didn't realize you were a Zen practitioner, I thought you were a TMer? Writings about Zen informed my early understandings. I've practiced TM for many decades, but my intellectual understanding never fully bought into any tradition. The experience occurred while I was just walking down the street. Meditation was the set up, not the cause. It was very strange, I was very restless during the month before it occurred, it was like something was on the tip of my tongue, and I knew what it was but like a word one has forgotten, it would not come. Then when lest expected, it happened. There were also experiences like this early on, before I did any meditation, but they were not clear, though at the time they seemed spectacular. This latter experience was very clear, but not spectacular in any way. Everything I thought from the previous decades was wiped away in a split second. The experience however matched the descriptions one finds in Zen accounts about how it might happen, and in a sense, what it is like, but no account prepares you for what it is like, because the disconnect between conceptual thought and direct experience is finally 'known'. A moment of realisation is just a moment. Like finding lost keys, once found, life goes on, but the implications of the experience seem to work their way into every aspect of life like I am a corpse eaten by worms. The early experiences kept me seeking (like wow, this is so cool, I want more), but the seeking fell off completely after this one. But in another sense it has been a new game, like being a baby in a new world. Earlier you criticised my equating Brahman with Rigpa. This was based on my understanding of the terms, but I am willing to be instructed here because you are obviously into the Tibetan scene and my familiarity there is pretty shallow. How do you view the meaning and relationship of these terms? What do they represent to you and what are the differences you experience as to their significance? One of the curious features of awakening is you just woke up from a dream, but delusional thoughts do not immediately vacate the premises, so one spends a lot of time weaning away from previous habits and conditioning, but unlike before, this happens rather spontaneously, it becomes difficult to avoid unburdening the remaining crap. That is one of the great things about FFL is that you can say something, and the response that comes back can challenge the mistaken understandings one still has in manipulating thought. Xeno, let me be frank, here. You have no problem whatsoever in manipulating thoughts or words. You seem quite clear and objective. Perhaps you have some mistaken ideas still floating about in your head but, based on your writing here, I am guessing not too many are left. I wonder how many years does it all take, anyway? Is there a time when one is done, cooked, at the end of the evolutionary road? Cause if I am not There yet, and if I should somehow awaken soon, I might not have enough years to be able to get the complete experience. I enjoy reading much of what you write here. I also enjoyed the link you posted to a joke about Adam and Eve by Adyashanti. In fact, your descriptions remind me of his way of talking about enlightenment. He also was launched from a Zen background, so perhaps the simplicity of the language and approach is the same. I learn something when you write of your experiences so honestly. It rings true. Thank you Susan. Adyashanti, (not personally but his writings), helped me a lot dealing with what followed this experience. It was actually rather strange, the first time I ever heard of him was two weeks before I had this experience. I had been practicing many techniques, but about two months before this, I thought they were holding me back somehow. I stopped all of them except TM. About two months later the strange uneasiness I described above began. About two week into the uneasiness I recalled I had read many years ago a story about a Zen master who said his job was selling water by the river. I typed that phrase into Google and Adyashanti's website came up with an essay called 'Selling Water by the River'. I read it, and then the uneasiness continued but somehow I felt that phrase had something to do with what was going on. Two weeks
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
On May 12, 2012, at 8:18 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote: Question put to Maharishi in the Assembly Hall, Seelisberg: Maharishi, do you like to be with us ? Maharishi; I would rather stay in my room and read Yoga Vashistha Probably one of the most profound Hindu teachings I ever received was of the Nirvana section of the YV. Mind blowing stuff!
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On May 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Yes, this is what it (kensho/satori) is like, no sense of center, the sense of individuality is totally obliterated. I didn't realize you were a Zen practitioner, I thought you were a TMer? Writings about Zen informed my early understandings. I've practiced TM for many decades, but my intellectual understanding never fully bought into any tradition. The experience occurred while I was just walking down the street. Meditation was the set up, not the cause. It was very strange, I was very restless during the month before it occurred, it was like something was on the tip of my tongue, and I knew what it was but like a word one has forgotten, it would not come. Then when lest expected, it happened. There were also experiences like this early on, before I did any meditation, but they were not clear, though at the time they seemed spectacular. This latter experience was very clear, but not spectacular in any way. Everything I thought from the previous decades was wiped away in a split second. The experience however matched the descriptions one finds in Zen accounts about how it might happen, and in a sense, what it is like, but no account prepares you for what it is like, because the disconnect between conceptual thought and direct experience is finally 'known'. A moment of realisation is just a moment. Like finding lost keys, once found, life goes on, but the implications of the experience seem to work their way into every aspect of life like I am a corpse eaten by worms. The early experiences kept me seeking (like wow, this is so cool, I want more), but the seeking fell off completely after this one. But in another sense it has been a new game, like being a baby in a new world. Earlier you criticised my equating Brahman with Rigpa. This was based on my understanding of the terms, but I am willing to be instructed here because you are obviously into the Tibetan scene and my familiarity there is pretty shallow. How do you view the meaning and relationship of these terms? What do they represent to you and what are the differences you experience as to their significance? One of the curious features of awakening is you just woke up from a dream, but delusional thoughts do not immediately vacate the premises, so one spends a lot of time weaning away from previous habits and conditioning, but unlike before, this happens rather spontaneously, it becomes difficult to avoid unburdening the remaining crap. That is one of the great things about FFL is that you can say something, and the response that comes back can challenge the mistaken understandings one still has in manipulating thought.
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Yes, this is what it (kensho/satori) is like, no sense of center, the sense of individuality is totally obliterated. I didn't realize you were a Zen practitioner, I thought you were a TMer? Writings about Zen informed my early understandings. I've practiced TM for many decades, but my intellectual understanding never fully bought into any tradition. The experience occurred while I was just walking down the street. Meditation was the set up, not the cause. It was very strange, I was very restless during the month before it occurred, it was like something was on the tip of my tongue, and I knew what it was but like a word one has forgotten, it would not come. Then when lest expected, it happened. There were also experiences like this early on, before I did any meditation, but they were not clear, though at the time they seemed spectacular. This latter experience was very clear, but not spectacular in any way. Everything I thought from the previous decades was wiped away in a split second. The experience however matched the descriptions one finds in Zen accounts about how it might happen, and in a sense, what it is like, but no account prepares you for what it is like, because the disconnect between conceptual thought and direct experience is finally 'known'. A moment of realisation is just a moment. Like finding lost keys, once found, life goes on, but the implications of the experience seem to work their way into every aspect of life like I am a corpse eaten by worms. The early experiences kept me seeking (like wow, this is so cool, I want more), but the seeking fell off completely after this one. But in another sense it has been a new game, like being a baby in a new world. Earlier you criticised my equating Brahman with Rigpa. This was based on my understanding of the terms, but I am willing to be instructed here because you are obviously into the Tibetan scene and my familiarity there is pretty shallow. How do you view the meaning and relationship of these terms? What do they represent to you and what are the differences you experience as to their significance? One of the curious features of awakening is you just woke up from a dream, but delusional thoughts do not immediately vacate the premises, so one spends a lot of time weaning away from previous habits and conditioning, but unlike before, this happens rather spontaneously, it becomes difficult to avoid unburdening the remaining crap. That is one of the great things about FFL is that you can say something, and the response that comes back can challenge the mistaken understandings one still has in manipulating thought. Xeno, let me be frank, here. You have no problem whatsoever in manipulating thoughts or words. You seem quite clear and objective. Perhaps you have some mistaken ideas still floating about in your head but, based on your writing here, I am guessing not too many are left. I wonder how many years does it all take, anyway? Is there a time when one is done, cooked, at the end of the evolutionary road? Cause if I am not There yet, and if I should somehow awaken soon, I might not have enough years to be able to get the complete experience. I enjoy reading much of what you write here. I also enjoyed the link you posted to a joke about Adam and Eve by Adyashanti. In fact, your descriptions remind me of his way of talking about enlightenment. He also was launched from a Zen background, so perhaps the simplicity of the language and approach is the same. I learn something when you write of your experiences so honestly. It rings true.
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
I agree with you, Susan. It's always a treat to read your posts, XA. Lovely mind. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Yes, this is what it (kensho/satori) is like, no sense of center, the sense of individuality is totally obliterated. I didn't realize you were a Zen practitioner, I thought you were a TMer? Writings about Zen informed my early understandings. I've practiced TM for many decades, but my intellectual understanding never fully bought into any tradition. The experience occurred while I was just walking down the street. Meditation was the set up, not the cause. It was very strange, I was very restless during the month before it occurred, it was like something was on the tip of my tongue, and I knew what it was but like a word one has forgotten, it would not come. Then when lest expected, it happened. There were also experiences like this early on, before I did any meditation, but they were not clear, though at the time they seemed spectacular. This latter experience was very clear, but not spectacular in any way. Everything I thought from the previous decades was wiped away in a split second. The experience however matched the descriptions one finds in Zen accounts about how it might happen, and in a sense, what it is like, but no account prepares you for what it is like, because the disconnect between conceptual thought and direct experience is finally 'known'. A moment of realisation is just a moment. Like finding lost keys, once found, life goes on, but the implications of the experience seem to work their way into every aspect of life like I am a corpse eaten by worms. The early experiences kept me seeking (like wow, this is so cool, I want more), but the seeking fell off completely after this one. But in another sense it has been a new game, like being a baby in a new world. Earlier you criticised my equating Brahman with Rigpa. This was based on my understanding of the terms, but I am willing to be instructed here because you are obviously into the Tibetan scene and my familiarity there is pretty shallow. How do you view the meaning and relationship of these terms? What do they represent to you and what are the differences you experience as to their significance? One of the curious features of awakening is you just woke up from a dream, but delusional thoughts do not immediately vacate the premises, so one spends a lot of time weaning away from previous habits and conditioning, but unlike before, this happens rather spontaneously, it becomes difficult to avoid unburdening the remaining crap. That is one of the great things about FFL is that you can say something, and the response that comes back can challenge the mistaken understandings one still has in manipulating thought. Xeno, let me be frank, here. You have no problem whatsoever in manipulating thoughts or words. You seem quite clear and objective. Perhaps you have some mistaken ideas still floating about in your head but, based on your writing here, I am guessing not too many are left. I wonder how many years does it all take, anyway? Is there a time when one is done, cooked, at the end of the evolutionary road? Cause if I am not There yet, and if I should somehow awaken soon, I might not have enough years to be able to get the complete experience. I enjoy reading much of what you write here. I also enjoyed the link you posted to a joke about Adam and Eve by Adyashanti. In fact, your descriptions remind me of his way of talking about enlightenment. He also was launched from a Zen background, so perhaps the simplicity of the language and approach is the same. I learn something when you write of your experiences so honestly. It rings true.
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Yes, this is what it (kensho/satori) is like, no sense of center, the sense of individuality is totally obliterated. I didn't realize you were a Zen practitioner, I thought you were a TMer? Writings about Zen informed my early understandings. I've practiced TM for many decades, but my intellectual understanding never fully bought into any tradition. The experience occurred while I was just walking down the street. Meditation was the set up, not the cause. It was very strange, I was very restless during the month before it occurred, it was like something was on the tip of my tongue, and I knew what it was but like a word one has forgotten, it would not come. Then when lest expected, it happened. There were also experiences like this early on, before I did any meditation, but they were not clear, though at the time they seemed spectacular. This latter experience was very clear, but not spectacular in any way. Everything I thought from the previous decades was wiped away in a split second. The experience however matched the descriptions one finds in Zen accounts about how it might happen, and in a sense, what it is like, but no account prepares you for what it is like, because the disconnect between conceptual thought and direct experience is finally 'known'. A moment of realisation is just a moment. Like finding lost keys, once found, life goes on, but the implications of the experience seem to work their way into every aspect of life like I am a corpse eaten by worms. The early experiences kept me seeking (like wow, this is so cool, I want more), but the seeking fell off completely after this one. But in another sense it has been a new game, like being a baby in a new world. Earlier you criticised my equating Brahman with Rigpa. This was based on my understanding of the terms, but I am willing to be instructed here because you are obviously into the Tibetan scene and my familiarity there is pretty shallow. How do you view the meaning and relationship of these terms? What do they represent to you and what are the differences you experience as to their significance? One of the curious features of awakening is you just woke up from a dream, but delusional thoughts do not immediately vacate the premises, so one spends a lot of time weaning away from previous habits and conditioning, but unlike before, this happens rather spontaneously, it becomes difficult to avoid unburdening the remaining crap. That is one of the great things about FFL is that you can say something, and the response that comes back can challenge the mistaken understandings one still has in manipulating thought. Xeno, let me be frank, here. You have no problem whatsoever in manipulating thoughts or words. You seem quite clear and objective. Perhaps you have some mistaken ideas still floating about in your head but, based on your writing here, I am guessing not too many are left. I wonder how many years does it all take, anyway? Is there a time when one is done, cooked, at the end of the evolutionary road? Cause if I am not There yet, and if I should somehow awaken soon, I might not have enough years to be able to get the complete experience. I enjoy reading much of what you write here. I also enjoyed the link you posted to a joke about Adam and Eve by Adyashanti. In fact, your descriptions remind me of his way of talking about enlightenment. He also was launched from a Zen background, so perhaps the simplicity of the language and approach is the same. I learn something when you write of your experiences so honestly. It rings true. Thank you Susan. Adyashanti, (not personally but his writings), helped me a lot dealing with what followed this experience. It was actually rather strange, the first time I ever heard of him was two weeks before I had this experience. I had been practicing many techniques, but about two months before this, I thought they were holding me back somehow. I stopped all of them except TM. About two months later the strange uneasiness I described above began. About two week into the uneasiness I recalled I had read many years ago a story about a Zen master who said his job was selling water by the river. I typed that phrase into Google and Adyashanti's website came up with an essay called 'Selling Water by the River'. I read it, and then the uneasiness continued but somehow I felt that phrase had something to do with what was going on. Two weeks later, I knew what that phrase signified. In the subsequent years I read more of his stuff, as it helped explain what was happening to me subsequently. I know of one other
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
Great insightful warm-personal posting and great quotes from our uncrowned Ptolemaic lighthouse of Eleatic-Zen philosophy at FFL [:D] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: snip Vasistha to Rama: 'It is only the childish and ignorant people who talk of duality and non-duality; the enlightened ones laugh at all this. However, without such a discussion based on duality and non-duality it is not possible to clean one's consciousness of ignorance. It is only in that spirit that I have dealt with all this, dear friend.'
[FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space ��Out-of-body�� experiences help us understand how the sense of a physical self arises. During a classical, brief, ��out-of-body�� state, the experience includes: (1) the displacement of the center of self-awareness. It now looks down at a scene from a new reference point well above its usual earth-bound position; (2) the impression that the person�s own body is still really ��down there,�� even while this displaced awareness is observing it from this elevated perspective (autoscopy) [Z:445�446]. Perhaps as many as 10% of seemingly normal subjects may experience these illusory projections of the self. So, too, do a few patients who have focal neurological disorders.14 Whether such temporary dislocations reflect local physiological dysfunctions, fixed disorders of structure, cortical stimulations by electrodes, or brief focal seizures, they most often disorganize the circuits localized to one key region: the temporoparietal junction. Normally, this junctional region helps us represent the kinds of body image models that serve as our own projections into the outside world. To do so, its networks link functions drawn from nearby association cortex (see chapter 95, section 8). Several major factors combine to displace attention and to warp its self/ other perspectives during a brief out-of-body state: - An impairment of the usual way the person integrates the conventional forms of sensation that convey a personal sense of private physical identity. Often the proprioceptive disorder is prominent. Indeed, the person�s actual body posture and movement at that very moment greatly influence the phenomena of the out-ofbody illusion. - An added impairment of several other covert constructs, the ones that normally help orient any person in external space. Some of these normal functions may be referable to the intraparietal sulcus which helps encode external space. When egocentric coordinates serve as its frame of reference, its activities are also influenced strongly by different positions of one�s head.15 Other impairments could represent disorders of normal mechanisms more reminiscent of those that merge with one�s vestibular sources of equilibrium. Under normal conditions, we are innocent of how many body-inside-space adjustments we are making. They can also be difficult to tease apart in the laboratory. Still, in daily life, a variety of mechanisms serve to stabilize our physical core of self in position within its changing spatial dimensions. Silently, they adjust each new model of our physical self with respect to what it sees, to the covert force of gravity, and they also anticipate our body�s next moves out into extrapersonal space. The few examples cited represent dysfunctions that disorganize a person�s orientation in space. This brief mention of their multilayered mechanisms serves not only to introduce the later topic of overt physiological triggers (see chapter 72). It also serves to call attention to triggering stimuli that operate much more covertly. For example, consider what may be happening in the brain of a meditator who had been watching scenery move past, off to his right, through the window of a moving train. His train stops. He descends. He turns, to then stand quietly on the station platform. Abruptly, in kensho, all sense of self is lost completely, not simply displaced (see chapter 93). Yes, this is what it (kensho/satori) is like, no sense of center, the sense of individuality is totally obliterated. Following this some sense of self returns, but it always feels hollowed out mostly, somehow empty. The body is stuck with the POV of the eyes, ears, etc., in navigating the body through the world, but the whole process feels continuous from inside the head to as far as one can see, that being is everything and is absolute, everything is connected and is an aspect of the same process, and somehow actually everything is static almost as if the activity is not real in some sense. There is appreciation, but not in the sense of say, 'I like that'. It is as if appreciation is built into what is seen or heard, or felt. And the conceptual overlays of the mind no longer seem real, although they can manipulated and applied as before; you can substitute other ones if you want, though there is a tendency to have preferences in expressing the experience of life. Some neuroimaging research is beginning to hint how this might occur. Zen-Brain Reflections Reviewing Recent Developments in Meditation and States of Consciousness James H. Austin, M.D.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
These characters showed up in my email in your Re:, but for me, did not show up in Vaj's original email that came through my email. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:07 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space ��Out-of-body�� experiences help us understand how the sense of a physical self arises. During a classical, brief, ��out-of-body�� state, the experience includes: (1) the displacement of the center of self-awareness. It now looks down at a scene from a new reference point well above its usual earth-bound position; (2) the impression that the person�s own body is still really ��down there,�� even while this displaced awareness is observing it from this elevated perspective (autoscopy) [Z:445�446]. Perhaps as many as 10% of seemingly normal subjects may experience these illusory projections of the self. So, too, do a few patients who have focal neurological disorders.14 Whether such temporary dislocations reflect local physiological dysfunctions, fixed disorders of structure, cortical stimulations by electrodes, or brief focal seizures, they most often disorganize the circuits localized to one key region: the temporoparietal junction. Normally, this junctional region helps us represent the kinds of body image models that serve as our own projections into the outside world. To do so, its networks link functions drawn from nearby association cortex (see chapter 95, section 8). Several major factors combine to displace attention and to warp its self/ other perspectives during a brief out-of-body state: - An impairment of the usual way the person integrates the conventional forms of sensation that convey a personal sense of private physical identity. Often the proprioceptive disorder is prominent. Indeed, the person�s actual body posture and movement at that very moment greatly influence the phenomena of the out-ofbody illusion. - An added impairment of several other covert constructs, the ones that normally help orient any person in external space. Some of these normal functions may be referable to the intraparietal sulcus which helps encode external space. When egocentric coordinates serve as its frame of reference, its activities are also influenced strongly by different positions of one�s head.15 Other impairments could represent disorders of normal mechanisms more reminiscent of those that merge with one�s vestibular sources of equilibrium. Under normal conditions, we are innocent of how many body-inside-space adjustments we are making. They can also be difficult to tease apart in the laboratory. Still, in daily life, a variety of mechanisms serve to stabilize our physical core of self in position within its changing spatial dimensions. Silently, they adjust each new model of our physical self with respect to what it sees, to the covert force of gravity, and they also anticipate our body�s next moves out into extrapersonal space. The few examples cited represent dysfunctions that disorganize a person�s orientation in space. This brief mention of their multilayered mechanisms serves not only to introduce the later topic of overt physiological triggers (see chapter 72). It also serves to call attention to triggering stimuli that operate much more covertly. For example, consider what may be happening in the brain of a meditator who had been watching scenery move past, off to his right, through the window of a moving train. His train stops. He descends. He turns, to then stand quietly on the station platform. Abruptly, in kensho, all sense of self is lost completely, not simply displaced (see chapter 93). Yes, this is what it (kensho/satori) is like, no sense of center, the sense of individuality is totally obliterated. Following this some sense of self returns, but it always feels hollowed out mostly, somehow empty. The body is stuck with the POV of the eyes, ears, etc., in navigating the body through the world, but the whole process feels continuous from inside the head to as far as one can see, that being is everything and is absolute, everything is connected and is an aspect of the same process, and somehow actually everything is static almost as if the activity is not real in some sense. There is appreciation, but not in the sense of say, 'I like that'. It is as if appreciation is built into what is seen or heard, or felt. And the conceptual overlays of the mind no longer seem real, although they can manipulated and applied as before; you can substitute other ones if you
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: ��Out-of-Body�� Experiences; Self-Referent Functions Disorganized in Space
On May 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Yes, this is what it (kensho/satori) is like, no sense of center, the sense of individuality is totally obliterated. I didn't realize you were a Zen practitioner, I thought you were a TMer?
