[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-10 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
[...]
> > Why would he say this? A literalist interpretation of the Vedic
> > literature may or may not contradict modern views of the world, 
> > depending on the interpretation. Plenty of Fundamentalist 
> > Christians embrace evolutionary theory via the "Day-Age" 
> > interpretation of Genesis, for instance.
> 
> Yeah, but that's not "literalist," strictly speaking.

Of course it is. "Day" is undefined in human terms until the sun is created. 
Until then, it is 
metaphorical. At least the devout 7th Day Adventist I knew who believed in 
evolution (or 
didn't disbelieve at least) claimed this. 


> Not all fundies are literalists in the strict sense of
> the term, by any means.  But if they *are* literalists,
> they have to deny evolutionary theory.

Nope. See above. Other interpretations of the literal meaning of the words in 
the bible 
might lead to other reconciliations as well.

> 
> My impression of MMY is that he sees the scriptural
> myths as metaphors but takes the much more abstract
> *referents* of the metaphors literally.
> 

Yes and no. ;-)

> Did God say "Let there be light," etc., or did God
> say, "Let there be a Big Bang and we'll see what
> happens," "Let there be evolution and we'll see what
> it comes up with"?


How can you be sure that there is a difference? Are you now defining what God 
meant 
when he used the word "light?"

> 
> (The above sentence more germane to my response to
> Vaj in another post, but I've got to get out the
> door in two minutes and I don't have time to
> move it over!)
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-10 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
 
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
> > > >  
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was 
one 
> > of 
> > > > MMY¹s
> > > > > > > fellow disciples.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But as you know, MMY doesn't "embrace radical Hindu
> > > > > > Creationism."
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > More precisely, MMY's version of "radical Hindu 
Creationism" is
> > > > > likely different than the one touted in the article.
> > > > 
> > > > As Vaj knows, MMY isn't even remotely a creationist
> > > > in the sense described in the article, contrary to
> > > > what his deliberately misleading subject heading
> > > > implies.
> > > > 
> > > > > Certainly, MMY can be described as a radical Hindu 
> > Fundamentalist...
> > > > 
> > > > You could also describe him as Jewish if you wanted.
> > > 
> > > Well, no. MMY isn't Jewish. However, he believes that the Vedic
> > > literature is often (always?) literally true.
> > 
> > I'm not convinced that's the case in many areas.
> > Has he ever said evolutionary theory is wrong, for
> > example?
> 
> Why would he say this? A literalist interpretation of the Vedic
> literature may or may not contradict modern views of the world, 
> depending on the interpretation. Plenty of Fundamentalist 
> Christians embrace evolutionary theory via the "Day-Age" 
> interpretation of Genesis, for instance.

Yeah, but that's not "literalist," strictly speaking.
Not all fundies are literalists in the strict sense of
the term, by any means.  But if they *are* literalists,
they have to deny evolutionary theory.

My impression of MMY is that he sees the scriptural
myths as metaphors but takes the much more abstract
*referents* of the metaphors literally.

Did God say "Let there be light," etc., or did God
say, "Let there be a Big Bang and we'll see what
happens," "Let there be evolution and we'll see what
it comes up with"?

(The above sentence more germane to my response to
Vaj in another post, but I've got to get out the
door in two minutes and I don't have time to
move it over!)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-10 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Very interesting, thanks for sharing this!
> 
> I would also point out that just because both various Hindu gurus 
and  
> Christian fundamentalists describe creationist and intelligent 
design  
> ideas that does not mean they are precisely the same--these are  
> *parallel* ideas. They share a lot, but express it quite 
differently  
> and therefore you have to be discerning to see the very real  
> parallels between the two.

As well as to decide which parallels are significant
and which are not in terms of the particular argument
one is making.

For example, the "God made the universe" parallel
would be significant if one were arguing that
evolutionary theory disproved the idea that God was
behind the creation of the universe.

If you were arguing that "God made the universe" was
a rejection of the scientific understanding, on the
other hand, you'd need to distinguish between systems
of thought that felt "God made the universe" trumped
evolutionary theory and systems that have no difficulty
coexisting with it.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-10 Thread Vaj


Very interesting, thanks for sharing this!I would also point out that just because both various Hindu gurus and Christian fundamentalists describe creationist and intelligent design ideas that does not mean they are precisely the same--these are *parallel* ideas. They share a lot, but express it quite differently and therefore you have to be discerning to see the very real parallels between the two.As Patrick pointed out one time, Fundamentalist Christian idealogy expresses ideas in the extreme *right* of western society while eastern thought *expressed relative to western society* /appears/ very much to the far left. However these same eastern ideas, when set in the own culture, represent similar nationalist, right-wing, fundamentalist movements as we see in fundamentalist, Christian, western mores.Everything is relative in the relative.On Jun 9, 2006, at 5:52 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  I'm not convinced that's the case in many areas. Has he ever said evolutionary theory is wrong, for example?   When asked who was correct Evolutionists or Fundamentalists (god created man with no intermediate steps), he said "Both are right".  He takes Yuga ages as literally true. (Sort of the inverse of the Christian problem of 6000 years. Fundamentalist Hindus would hold human societies way way before the many branches of science find any evidence - direct or indirect)  MMY used to hold that humans had two identical nervous systems (not to be confused with sympathetic,para-symopatheic, or two hemespheres of brain, etc. He said not to all that. "Its two identical nervous systems"). And thats how CC could be maintained. One in silence, the other in activity. I think the idea comes from Hindu scripture.  Castes, role of women, vedic kings, Age of Rama .. all pretty Hindu fundamentalist ideas. 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-10 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
> > >  
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one 
> of 
> > > MMY¹s
> > > > > > fellow disciples.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But as you know, MMY doesn't "embrace radical Hindu
> > > > > Creationism."
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > More precisely, MMY's version of "radical Hindu Creationism" is
> > > > likely different than the one touted in the article.
> > > 
> > > As Vaj knows, MMY isn't even remotely a creationist
> > > in the sense described in the article, contrary to
> > > what his deliberately misleading subject heading
> > > implies.
> > > 
> > > > Certainly, MMY can be described as a radical Hindu 
> Fundamentalist...
> > > 
> > > You could also describe him as Jewish if you wanted.
> > 
> > Well, no. MMY isn't Jewish. However, he believes that the Vedic
> > literature is often (always?) literally true.
> 
> I'm not convinced that's the case in many areas.
> Has he ever said evolutionary theory is wrong, for
> example?
> 

Why would he say this? A literalist interpretation of the Vedic literature may 
or may not 
contradict modern views of the world, depending on the interpretation. Plenty 
of 
Fundamentalist Christians embrace evolutionary theory via the "Day-Age" 
interpretation of 
Genesis, for instance.



> 
> 
>  The difference between him and OTHER Fundamentalist Hindus is in how 
> he 
> > interprets them.
> >
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread new_morning_blank_slate
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm not convinced that's the case in many areas.
> Has he ever said evolutionary theory is wrong, for
> example?
> 

When asked who was correct Evolutionists or Fundamentalists (god
created man with no intermediate steps), he said "Both are right".

He takes Yuga ages as literally true. (Sort of the inverse of the
Christian problem of 6000 years. Fundamentalist Hindus would hold
human societies way way before the many branches of science find any
evidence - direct or indirect)

MMY used to hold that humans had two identical nervous systems (not to
be confused with sympathetic,para-symopatheic, or two hemespheres of
brain, etc. He said not to all that. "Its two identical nervous
systems"). And thats how CC could be maintained. One in silence, the
other in activity. I think the idea comes from Hindu scripture.

Castes, role of women, vedic kings, Age of Rama .. all pretty Hindu
fundamentalist ideas.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
> >  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one 
of 
> > MMY¹s
> > > > > fellow disciples.
> > > > 
> > > > But as you know, MMY doesn't "embrace radical Hindu
> > > > Creationism."
> > > >
> > > 
> > > More precisely, MMY's version of "radical Hindu Creationism" is
> > > likely different than the one touted in the article.
> > 
> > As Vaj knows, MMY isn't even remotely a creationist
> > in the sense described in the article, contrary to
> > what his deliberately misleading subject heading
> > implies.
> > 
> > > Certainly, MMY can be described as a radical Hindu 
Fundamentalist...
> > 
> > You could also describe him as Jewish if you wanted.
> 
> Well, no. MMY isn't Jewish. However, he believes that the Vedic
> literature is often (always?) literally true.

I'm not convinced that's the case in many areas.
Has he ever said evolutionary theory is wrong, for
example?



 The difference between him and OTHER Fundamentalist Hindus is in how 
he 
> interprets them.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > > > 
> > > > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of
> > > > MMY¹s fellow disciples.
> > > 
> > > Are you sure? MMY was one of SBS's youngest disciples, and he's 
> > > approaching 90 or 95, depending on who you believe.
> > 
> > Not at the same time, but Prakashanand was a disciple of
> > Guru Dev.
> 
> When? MMY was one of the youngest, and he was about 35-40 when
> Gurudev died in 1953.

Prakashanand:

"In Vrindaban, I experienced the direct Grace of Radha Rani, which 
was further elevated when I went to Barsana. So, in fact, Shree Radha 
Rani is my supreme Spiritual Master, although I had taken sannyas in 
a traditional Vedic way from Jagadguru Shankaracharya of Joshimath in 
1950 at Allahabad."

According to him, Guru Dev offered to make him
his successor:

"Keeping his devotional feelings deep in his heart, Swamiji continued 
his formal studies. At the age of twenty-one, in 1950, he entered the 
renounced order of sannyas. Seeing his esteem of renunciation and 
deep feeling of God-consciousness, in 1952, the Jagadguru 
Shankaracharya of Joshimath, one of the most renowned religious 
thrones of India, offered that Swamiji be the successor. He politely 
refused, saying that he had given his life for the service of Radha 
Rani so he could not live forever in Allahabad. His final desire was 
to go to Vrindaban."

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1995/9/1995-9-03.shtml

So I guess they must have been there at the same time.

>From that long essay on the Jyotirmath succession:

"Another Swami has claimed that he was once offered the Jyotirmath 
Sankaracharya title, which he respectfully declined. This is 
Prakasananda Saraswati, who has set up an "International Society of 
Divine Love" and a Rasesvari Radharani temple, known as Barsana Dham, 
in Texas, USA. Although he was initiated into Sannyasa by Brahmananda 
Saraswati, his personal religious philosophy is Acintya Bhedabheda, 
associated with Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Gaudiya Vaishnavas. [10] This 
leads me to seriously suspect his claim of having been offered the 
Sankaracharya post."

Note 10: "See the September 95 issue of Hinduism Today. [That's where 
the quotes above are from.--JS] There is also a website of 
Prakasananda Saraswati's organization, at 
http://www.isdl.org/html/swamiji.html. Close watchers claim that 
membership of ISDL is made up mostly of former TM followers, but 
Prakasananda's affiliation with Acintya Bhedabheda and Caitanya 
Mahaprabhu also probably attracts ex-ISKCON members. Prakasananda 
Saraswati also represents an interesting contemporary example of how 
a person can be a Dasanami Sannyasin and still not be an Advaita 
Vedantin."

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/position/shank-jyot-ascii.html

This is the dude, by the way, that ColdBlueIce was
always talking about over on alt.m.t.

To call MMY a "fellow disciple" of Prakashanand to
imply they have similar beliefs is really just
inexcusably misleading.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
>  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > > > 
> > > > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of 
> MMY¹s
> > > > fellow disciples.
> > > 
> > > But as you know, MMY doesn't "embrace radical Hindu
> > > Creationism."
> > >
> > 
> > More precisely, MMY's version of "radical Hindu Creationism" is
> > likely different than the one touted in the article.
> 
> As Vaj knows, MMY isn't even remotely a creationist
> in the sense described in the article, contrary to
> what his deliberately misleading subject heading
> implies.
> 
> > Certainly, MMY can be described as a radical Hindu Fundamentalist...
> 
> You could also describe him as Jewish if you wanted.
>

Well, no. MMY isn't Jewish. However, he believes that the Vedic literature is 
often (always?) 
literally true. The difference between him and OTHER Fundamentalist Hindus is 
in how he 
interprets them.










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  
> wrote:
> > >
> > > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > > 
> > > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of MMY¹s
> > > fellow disciples.
> > 
> > Are you sure? MMY was one of SBS's youngest disciples, and he's 
> > approaching 90 or 95, depending on who you believe.
> 
> Not at the same time, but Prakashanand was a disciple of
> Guru Dev.

When? MMY was one of the youngest, and he was about 35-40 when Gurudev died in 
1953.

> 
> Of course, he's long since departed from what Guru Dev
> taught, but of course Vaj doesn't mention that.
>







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > > 
> > > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of 
MMY¹s
> > > fellow disciples.
> > 
> > But as you know, MMY doesn't "embrace radical Hindu
> > Creationism."
> >
> 
> More precisely, MMY's version of "radical Hindu Creationism" is
> likely different than the one touted in the article.

As Vaj knows, MMY isn't even remotely a creationist
in the sense described in the article, contrary to
what his deliberately misleading subject heading
implies.

> Certainly, MMY can be described as a radical Hindu Fundamentalist...

You could also describe him as Jewish if you wanted.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  
> wrote:
> >
> > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > 
> > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of MMY¹s
> > fellow disciples.
> 
> But as you know, MMY doesn't "embrace radical Hindu
> Creationism."
>

More precisely, MMY's version of "radical Hindu Creationism" is likely 
different than the one 
touted in the article. Certainly, MMY can be described as a radical Hindu 
Fundamentalist...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  
wrote:
> >
> > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > 
> > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of MMY¹s
> > fellow disciples.
> 
> Are you sure? MMY was one of SBS's youngest disciples, and he's 
> approaching 90 or 95, depending on who you believe.

Not at the same time, but Prakashanand was a disciple of
Guru Dev.

Of course, he's long since departed from what Guru Dev
taught, but of course Vaj doesn't mention that.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > 
> Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of MMY¹s fellow
> disciples.
>


Are you sure? MMY was one of SBS's youngest disciples, and he's approaching 90 
or 95, 
depending on who you believe.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > 
> Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of MMY¹s
> fellow disciples.

But as you know, MMY doesn't "embrace radical Hindu
Creationism."







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread Rick Archer
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?





on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

"Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?

Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was one of MMY’s fellow disciples.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> 
> Vaj neglected to include the intro he used when he posted this to
> a.m.t: 

Guess he just forgot, huh?

> http://tinyurl.com/mqynm
> 
> "Mahesh "Maharishi" Varma and his "science" creative intelligence is
> not the only disciple of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati supporting the
> Hindu version of Intelligent Design and Creation Science."

And I asked him there whether he didn't think he
could have been just a *bit* more misleading.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread Alex Stanley
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
>

Vaj neglected to include the intro he used when he posted this to a.m.t: 

http://tinyurl.com/mqynm

"Mahesh "Maharishi" Varma and his "science" creative intelligence is
not the only disciple of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati supporting the
Hindu version of Intelligent Design and Creation Science."






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

2006-06-09 Thread authfriend
"Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?






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