Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
On Aug 23, 2009, at 12:56 AM, raunchydog wrote: Raunchydog wrote: I'm not asking you to buy anything. Just answer the question. Why do researchers find frontal alpha coherence in TM'ers and not in people simply relaxing or in other meditation techniques? No answer implies you either don't know the difference between alpha brainwaves in relaxation and frontal alpha coherence in TM or you are afraid to admit you're the one pedaling BS and not Travis. First of all researchers do not find this significant only TM RESEARCHERS do. And therein lies your problem. You apparently have a very short memory span, but despite having posted this numerous times before, here's the state of the art opinion on TM alpha coherence: Within a bandwidth of perhaps 2 Hz near this spectral peak, alpha frequencies frequently produce spontaneously moderate to large coherence (0.3–0.8 over large interelectrode distance (Nunez et al., 1997). The alpha coherence values reported in TM studies, as a trait in the baseline or during meditation, belong to this same range. Thus a global increase of alpha power and alpha coherence might not reflect a more “ordered” or “integrated” experience, as frequently claimed in TM literature... -The Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness The alpha coherence fraud is what they've decided to run with. It's common in many relaxation response-style meditation forms, but since it's known by neuroscientists to be so common in even non-meditating humans, no one considers it amazing or special. In fact, as I said, it's common in commercial relaxation techniques, TM just being one of many: To summarize, alpha global increases and alpha coherence mostly over frontal electrodes are associated with TM practice when meditating compared to baseline (Morse, Martin, Furst, Dubin, 1977). This global alpha increase is similar to that produced by other relaxation techniques. The passive absorption during the recitation of the mantra, as practiced in this technique, produces a brain pattern that suggests a decrease of processing of sensory or motor information and of mental activity in general. Because alpha rhythms are ubiquitous and functionally non-specific, the claim that alpha oscillations and alpha coherence are desirable or are linked to an original and higher state of consciousness seem quite premature. -The Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness Whoa. Let's stop you right there. Not researchers, but TM zealot researchers, claiming independent views but espousing zig heil TM movement sputum. What a cop-out. For the second time Vaj has not answered my question. Instead of simply saying, Yes, TM produces frontal alpha coherence in TM'ers and does not compared to Buddhist or Mindfullness meditation and is therefore unique, he snips my question and makes up some BS saying he doesn't have to answer because he objects to the word researchers when in fact I was citing research by Travis. He can't answer the question honestly because he would have to admit that TM uniquely produces frontal alpha coherence. I'm not saying TM is better than any technique he wants to do, just that it appears to be unique if no other technique can produce frontal alpha coherence. He poses as a man of science but he is not open to a discussion of frontal alpha coherence and why it is only found in TM'ers. Please see the above. You've fallen for the uniqueness lie on top of the the alpha coherence lie, two major lies propagated by this organization. Please try to use more rigor in your observations, will ya RD from now on? I realize you're relatively new here, but these two lies have already been dealt with here log ago and conclusively addressed. In the future when you forget that, please refer back to this message number (or you could save a copy to your HD). Thanks.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
On Aug 21, 2009, at 10:39 PM, raunchydog wrote: Then how come, Frontal alpha coherence is not reported in other meditation practices? It isn't considered important because it's low integration and common. Usually meditation will only briefly stay in alpha until it goes to deeper levels of absorption. As one of the primary experts on EEG Barbara Brown said about alpha Concluding anything about alpha is perilous. All it means in the case of TM you are listening to a faint sound, a mantra, you're nicely relaxed or both. But you can poise yourself as is listening to ANY faint noise and alpha will shoot up. Big whoop. Many things can get you into the alpha state, but in deep meditation alpha is passed by. interesting findings seem to be coming from high-amplitude gamma coherence which was originally found in Patanjali tradition yogis who could go into samadhi at will. In Buddhists that EEG coherence, which oddly connects the part of the brain associated with integration, continues even when these yogis are not meditating. And that's the way it is, as Walter Cronkite used to say. Well, that's the way Vaj says it is. What strikes me as uncool is feeling that a cool thing attributable to TM must somehow be countered because it isn't attributable to Buddhism. If that's what's happening, that would be uncool. But that's not what's happening. What's happening is meditation researchers who are reputable have gained considerable wisdom in different ways of looking at the brain, and EEG is one we know a lot about already. When the leading researchers on the planet say TM's claims are exaggerated and premature (among other things), it would bade well to find out why. Since I had heard rumors of the exaggeration by old staff who had worked with Maharishi in the original disappointing findings way back in the 80's, the researchers were basically told go with the alpha. They had no choice. They did what Maharishi insisted was significant. Forcing researchers to report a finding as significant that they felt (and knew) was insignificant is always bound to catch up with you. And IMO that's exactly what has happened. Boy, was I disappointed when I first heard that. Wake up call!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
On Aug 21, 2009, at 11:11 PM, WillyTex wrote: Vaj wrote: Ah yes, James Austin. Good stuff! Ah yes, James Austin, the same James Austin that cites Herbert Benson, who as everyone knows, first published the results of TM with Keith Wallace. According to Austin, scientists have mapped the relaxation response in TM meditation. Makes one wonder if all that stuff you said about TM was true. You love your strawmen too Willy, don't you? I've always known and accepted that TM invokes the relaxation response. In fact I just recently sat with HHDL and Herbert Benson at Harvard and heard him say what 8 common meditations can elicit the relaxation response. TM is one of many. Of course that would not include people who are unstressing most likely. ;-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
On Aug 22, 2009, at 4:04 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: Boy, was I disappointed when I first heard that. Wake up call! Pity then that you didn't wake up but joined, or perhaps you've been there all along, Buddhism; perhaps the most stagnated and formalized of all the major and dry religions on earth. Actually, the first thing I did was go to the Shankaracharya and someone from Guru Dev's direct line for further teachings. I was far from disappointed! Nice try though. ;-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
On Aug 22, 2009, at 4:28 PM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Aug 21, 2009, at 10:39 PM, raunchydog wrote: Then how come, Frontal alpha coherence is not reported in other meditation practices? Travis isn't talking about just alpha which anyone can demonstrate doing biofeedback, listening to music, daydreaming etc. He's talking specifically about alpha coherence in the frontal lobes of the brain, which no one has found in other forms of meditation or in people just relaxing. He's comparing three types of meditation techniques and TM is the only one that produces frontal alpha coherence. Since relaxation and other forms of meditation can't reproduce it, it must be unique to TM. The fact that we don't know what it means doesn't negate its uniqueness, maybe it just means something good is happening. Sorry, not buying it. It's no wonder Travis is viewed at with suspicion as this is total BS. Meditation in the Tibetan Buddhism tradition has been generally described as: Reasoned deconstruction of the reality of objects experienced in meditation, as well as concentrative practices to create moods such as pure compassion, loving kindness; or no self. This involves focused attention, and control of the mind. It involves concentration. Wow, what a horrible description of the literally hundreds---probably thousands--of meditation techniques in Tibetan Buddhism alone. If this is his description, it certainly, clearly shows the guy doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. Mindfulness Meditation is described by Paul Grossman as: Systematic procedure to develop enhanced awareness of moment-to-moment experiences. Mindfulness includes two meditation practices: - with eyes closed: attention on breath. - with eyes open: dispassionate observation of body, senses and environment. This meditation involves intention or directing of attention to physiological rhythms, inner thoughts, sensations or outer objects. Transcendental Meditation technique is a process of effortless transcending... As a working hypothesis, let's accept that TM is effortless, and then generate testable hypotheses. One of these testable hypotheses, is: If TM is effortless, then people should quickly master the practice of transcending. If we know about the metaphysics of meditation, we know that meditation with objects can never be truly effortless--a fine distinction, but a crucial one. So we should avoid saying things we know to be false, as if repeating the lie over and over, someone will believe it. Perhaps this is why MMY went to such lengths to point that TM involved a small amount of effort at Estes Park... Research supports this hypothesis. In the next slide, we see EEG during TM in students of the same age, but with very different levels of time practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique. The one on the left just learned the TM technique, as a new student at Maharishi University of Management. The one on the right has been meditating since he was 10 years old. http://www.fredtravis.com/talk.html I'm familiar with the spiel. It's kinda disappointing now that that MMY is gone, they don't at least TRY to be more honest.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
Vaj wrote: On Aug 21, 2009, at 10:39 PM, raunchydog wrote: Then how come, Frontal alpha coherence is not reported in other meditation practices? It isn't considered important because it's low integration and common. Usually meditation will only briefly stay in alpha until it goes to deeper levels of absorption. As one of the primary experts on EEG Barbara Brown said about alpha Concluding anything about alpha is perilous. All it means in the case of TM you are listening to a faint sound, a mantra, you're nicely relaxed or both. But you can poise yourself as is listening to ANY faint noise and alpha will shoot up. Big whoop. Many things can get you into the alpha state, but in deep meditation alpha is passed by. interesting findings seem to be coming from high-amplitude gamma coherence which was originally found in Patanjali tradition yogis who could go into samadhi at will. In Buddhists that EEG coherence, which oddly connects the part of the brain associated with integration, continues even when these yogis are not meditating. And that's the way it is, as Walter Cronkite used to say. Well, that's the way Vaj says it is. What strikes me as uncool is feeling that a cool thing attributable to TM must somehow be countered because it isn't attributable to Buddhism. If that's what's happening, that would be uncool. But that's not what's happening. What's happening is meditation researchers who are reputable have gained considerable wisdom in different ways of looking at the brain, and EEG is one we know a lot about already. When the leading researchers on the planet say TM's claims are exaggerated and premature (among other things), it would bade well to find out why. Since I had heard rumors of the exaggeration by old staff who had worked with Maharishi in the original disappointing findings way back in the 80's, the researchers were basically told go with the alpha. They had no choice. They did what Maharishi insisted was significant. Forcing researchers to report a finding as significant that they felt (and knew) was insignificant is always bound to catch up with you. And IMO that's exactly what has happened. Boy, was I disappointed when I first heard that. Wake up call! Cleaning house the other day I came across my copy of The Physical and Psychological Effects of Meditation the 1988 book by Michael Murphy and Steven Donovan published by Esalen Institute. I'm going to have to thumb through some of those studies again. ;-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
On Aug 22, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Bhairitu wrote: Vaj wrote: On Aug 21, 2009, at 10:39 PM, raunchydog wrote: Then how come, Frontal alpha coherence is not reported in other meditation practices? It isn't considered important because it's low integration and common. Usually meditation will only briefly stay in alpha until it goes to deeper levels of absorption. As one of the primary experts on EEG Barbara Brown said about alpha Concluding anything about alpha is perilous. All it means in the case of TM you are listening to a faint sound, a mantra, you're nicely relaxed or both. But you can poise yourself as is listening to ANY faint noise and alpha will shoot up. Big whoop. Many things can get you into the alpha state, but in deep meditation alpha is passed by. interesting findings seem to be coming from high-amplitude gamma coherence which was originally found in Patanjali tradition yogis who could go into samadhi at will. In Buddhists that EEG coherence, which oddly connects the part of the brain associated with integration, continues even when these yogis are not meditating. And that's the way it is, as Walter Cronkite used to say. Well, that's the way Vaj says it is. What strikes me as uncool is feeling that a cool thing attributable to TM must somehow be countered because it isn't attributable to Buddhism. If that's what's happening, that would be uncool. But that's not what's happening. What's happening is meditation researchers who are reputable have gained considerable wisdom in different ways of looking at the brain, and EEG is one we know a lot about already. When the leading researchers on the planet say TM's claims are exaggerated and premature (among other things), it would bade well to find out why. Since I had heard rumors of the exaggeration by old staff who had worked with Maharishi in the original disappointing findings way back in the 80's, the researchers were basically told go with the alpha. They had no choice. They did what Maharishi insisted was significant. Forcing researchers to report a finding as significant that they felt (and knew) was insignificant is always bound to catch up with you. And IMO that's exactly what has happened. Boy, was I disappointed when I first heard that. Wake up call! Cleaning house the other day I came across my copy of The Physical and Psychological Effects of Meditation the 1988 book by Michael Murphy and Steven Donovan published by Esalen Institute. I'm going to have to thumb through some of those studies again. ;-) Probably mostly out of date. Check out the meditation research section of The Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness if you want a state of the art view.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
Vaj wrote: Cleaning house the other day I came across my copy of The Physical and Psychological Effects of Meditation the 1988 book by Michael Murphy and Steven Donovan published by Esalen Institute. I'm going to have to thumb through some of those studies again. ;-) Probably mostly out of date. Check out the meditation research section of The Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness if you want a state of the art view. I'm aware of the current research but thought it would be interesting to see what was published back then.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
Hi RD: On Aug 22, 2009, at 8:50 PM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Aug 22, 2009, at 4:28 PM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Aug 21, 2009, at 10:39 PM, raunchydog wrote: Then how come, Frontal alpha coherence is not reported in other meditation practices? Travis isn't talking about just alpha which anyone can demonstrate doing biofeedback, listening to music, daydreaming etc. He's talking specifically about alpha coherence in the frontal lobes of the brain, which no one has found in other forms of meditation or in people just relaxing. He's comparing three types of meditation techniques and TM is the only one that produces frontal alpha coherence. Since relaxation and other forms of meditation can't reproduce it, it must be unique to TM. The fact that we don't know what it means doesn't negate its uniqueness, maybe it just means something good is happening. Sorry, not buying it. It's no wonder Travis is viewed at with suspicion as this is total BS. I'm not asking you to buy anything. Just answer the question. Why do researchers Whoa. Let's stop you right there. Not researchers, but TM zealot researchers, claiming independent views but espousing zig heil TM movement sputum. All I'm getting is 'should I angle my sputum-bucket closer to the Unified Field of TM or the patient? Oh, I'm sorry...the patient? find frontal alpha coherence in TM'ers and not in people simply relaxing or in other meditation techniques? No answer implies you either don't know the difference between alpha brainwaves in relaxation and frontal alpha coherence in TM or you are afraid to admit you're the one pedaling BS and not Travis. No, not at all, I'm familiar with brain measurements and neuroscience, so this type of begging argument just doesn't effect me like it does the 'willing believers'. I learned a long time ago not to trust these folks, and it's sad to say: I see the same patterns even after MMY croaked. If you ever had to own up to the fact that TM produces EEG brainwaves not achievable in other techniques, your raison d'être would crumble and we would see a lot less of you, your Buddhist mumbojumbo and continuous attempts to discredit TM. For what? Well that's an interesting statement. I'm sad to say, I do not believe it is a supportable argument my dear. One needs to be able to objectively and scientifically observe phenomenon for which we credit so-called research. The observations and syllogisms seem almost childish to me: to render some thing available, now, to me. Childish. Just to own up here: Zen students were able to quickly master the alpha challenge and we know what the concomitants are of alpha. It's not appropriate to continuously putsch bizarrely countervening ideals. It very strange to other legit scientists...cultish at best... Why do you have such an axe to grind? I don't have any axe and I have nothing to grind RD. I'm really just a science fan, when it comes to the realties of everyday AND meditative (or contemplative) life I just take them as they are. I don't confuse Vedic science fiction and science fact--and I have honest reasons for that. If you think you're going to save the world from dangerous TM and evil Maharishi by posting on FFLife, you're just pissing in a tiny pot of little consequence. Boring, boring, boring. Well thanks for that. Meditation in the Tibetan Buddhism tradition has been generally described as: Reasoned deconstruction of the reality of objects experienced in meditation, as well as concentrative practices to create moods such as pure compassion, loving kindness; or no self. This involves focused attention, and control of the mind. It involves concentration. Wow, what a horrible description of the literally hundreds--- probably thousands--of meditation techniques in Tibetan Buddhism alone. If this is his description, it certainly, clearly shows the guy doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. If you know the first thing about research you should know that you minimize your variables. Obviously, Travis couldn't pick a thousand different techniques for his study, so he picked one. If there are a thousand techniques in Buddhism, it stands to reason that a least one of them is practiced as Travis describes. Well that would presume you consider Travis to be objective. I don't-- by any shot consider Travis nowhere near objective. He was bought and sold ages ago my child. Wake the fuck up. By the way, I have yet to hear you pick one Buddhist meditation technique and define it as precisely as Travis did. Travis did not define any Buddhist technique precisely at all. What Travis did was pick a TB stance and then try to shoot 'blanks' at other techniques. I'm not only
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
On Aug 21, 2009, at 8:49 AM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: Dying the cloth of inner happiness. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm There is something about conscientious Buddhist practice that results in the kind of happiness we all seek. Paul Ekman, University of California San Francisco Medical Centre Buddhists 'really are happier' Scientists say they have evidence to show that Buddhists really are happier and calmer than other people. Tests carried out in the United States reveal that areas of their brain associated with good mood and positive feelings are more active. If, as TM critics say, we don't know what TM EEG brain coherence means and therefore we cannot say it correlates with better behavior, how can we say that we know what activity in the left prefrontal lobes means in Buddhist meditation and correlates with better behavior? If Buddhists light up only the left half of their brain and feel happy, wouldn't it follow that TMer's lighting up both halves of their brain would feel doubly happy? They're not referring to EEG measurements, but PET and fMRI findings of the brain, in real time when they're referring to things lighting up. We do know the areas of the brain associated with certain positive emotions and qualities. For some reason perfusion or blood supply to these regions of the brain increases, creating neuroplastic changes to these areas, the cortex actually thickens. Since these are lasting changes, it's actually as if these qualities are 'dyed into their brains. Thus in depression patients, it's now known that they can even stop meditating and the alleviation of depression will continue, they become resilient since they've physically altered their brain for the better. Regarding TM EEG alpha coherence, that's probably the biggest sleight of hand job ever pulled. Alpha coherence in the range seen in advanced TM meditators, is actually within the normal range of healthy humans who don't meditate. In fact alpha coherence is so common in humans, it's not really anything special at all. The most interesting findings seem to be coming from high-amplitude gamma coherence which was originally found in Patanjali tradition yogis who could go into samadhi at will. In Buddhists that EEG coherence, which oddly connects the part of the brain associated with integration, continues even when these yogis are not meditating. And that's the way it is, as Walter Cronkite used to say.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Buddhists 'really are happier'
Ah yes, James Austin. Good stuff! On Aug 21, 2009, at 10:33 AM, shinkai_birx wrote: Tricycle: the Buddhist Review (Fall 2009 issue) presents an informative article beginning on page 58 entitled This Is Your Brain On Zen.
