Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Bob, you leave me without words - a good thing. :) And, thank you for the documentary and musical links of last Thurs. Here's a picture from the WA coast last week. Love, Emily http://www.flickr.com/photos/71633812@N08/9615960464/ From: bobpriced bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 4:31 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqyXjjbsOos --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emilymae.reyn wrote: Hi Xeno, thanks for sharingRe: thisThen all hell broke loose. A vast amount of repressed material rose up and flowed out of me. A total surprise. So clearly the awakening was not a clean slate. It was ultra intense, say twenty times more intense than anything I had experienced up to then. And the experience was truly unusual because while my regular life flowed along, there was this other stuff that I knew was not real, but it felt so real it was impossible to not act on it. Something akin to this happened to me once.except that I thought it was real. Smile. Keep 'em coming Xeno. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: I experimented and researched. But eventually it was kind of full circle, I ended up reading about things that initially propelled me on the journey, and found answers to questions I could not find easily within the TM org and TM teachers. What propelled the restoration of interest in all this was a sudden unexpected shift in experience. Everything I had thought had failed, proved in retrospect to have been useful, but to have had more specific information at specific times in my life would possibly have made the process more efficient. I'm not convinced that would be true. Information that told you what an experience meant would have been just one more bit of misinformation, after all. The experience was what it was -- nothing more, and nothing less. I was thinking along the lines of not what a description of an experience means but how a description helps one navigate an experience. Obviously, if I have the thought that things might have been 'better' if I had had more useful information at the time, this thought is not going to apply to me now, but it might be useful to someone else later on, so they do not get quite so stuck. Not so much what this means, but what do I do, if anything, when such and such happens, and I do not understand what is happening? Certain traditional hand-me-downs do become useful, such as what a screw is, and what a screwdriver is, and how to use them in what circumstance, and how these items relate to sticking things together. After what I would call a very clear but subdued awakening experience some years ago, things were pretty nice for several years. There was something about this particular experience, unlike others I had had long ago, that I could not grasp in any way. Even the attempt to talk about it stymied me. Then all hell broke loose. A vast amount of repressed material rose up and flowed out of me. A total surprise. So clearly the awakening was not a clean slate. It was ultra intense, say twenty times more intense than anything I had experienced up to then. And the experience was truly unusual because while my regular life flowed along, there was this other stuff that I knew was not real, but it felt so real it was impossible to not act on it. It was like my mind was split in two with two parallel lives running simultaneously, one the present and the other thoughts, feelings, behaviours from long ago. I had no clue what was happening. If I had asked a TM teacher what was happening they probably would have said I was 'just unstressing, that I should take it easy and maybe get my meditation checked or something'. No really useful information or guidelines that apply directly. Extreme experiences like this seem to be swept under the rug by TM teachers, anything not in the template. I suspect they do not really have any training to handle them. I found a solution in what I was reading. It seems that after a clear awakening, one's ability to keep repressed material repressed simply falls apart. The can of worms is open, and if something triggers the experience, you cannot close it, and the experience really does seem like you are coming apart at the seams. All you can do is endure it. Nothing helps. It is as if finally there is enough room in your world to experience this. The intellectual knowledge that this is common, that others experienced it, and that it is super intense, and that you have to go through it because
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Judy, obviously we have different definitions of snide and sly and also obviously you think yours is the right one. BTW, I don't consider this post snide and sly either. But interesting to see that you're always on the alert for whatever it is you're always on the alert for. From: authfriend authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:43 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: See, emptybill, according to Ann, it's ok if you scold Buck, but not ok if you scold Ravi. No go figuring needed, right? Share, Monday: I think I'm less bothered by turq because his attacks are straight forward. Whereas I'm very triggered by what I call snide and sly attacks. I guffawed at the hyposcrisy when I read that, since Share's primary mode of attack on FFL has always been snide and sly. But I figured I'd wait to make that observation until her next snide/sly attack. I didn't even have to wait 24 hours.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Judy, I think Xeno has addressed this topic with you quite thoroughly. I'll add that you think you know THE truth about people's motivations, etc. but all you have, just like the rest of us, are your opinions. Staunchly held and defended, but opinions nonetheless. Carry on... From: authfriend authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:59 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60 sharelong60@... wrote: Now Judy, you're also trying to practice mind reading, and unsuccessfully so. Now, Share, you know I don't trust you to tell the truth, especially about yourself. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: Judy, obviously we have different definitions of snide and sly No, I don't think so, Share. At least, we didn't up until the moment you read my post. and also obviously you think yours is the right one. BTW, I don't consider this post snide and sly either. No, this one's just straightforwardly dishonest. But interesting to see that you're always on the alert for whatever it is you're always on the alert for. My, what an intelligent observation. From: authfriend authfriend@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:43 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: See, emptybill, according to Ann, it's ok if you scold Buck, but not ok if you scold Ravi. No go figuring needed, right? Share, Monday: I think I'm less bothered by turq because his attacks are straight forward. Whereas I'm very triggered by what I call snide and sly attacks. I guffawed at the hyposcrisy when I read that, since Share's primary mode of attack on FFL has always been snide and sly. But I figured I'd wait to make that observation until her next snide/sly attack. I didn't even have to wait 24 hours.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Emily, I get really triggered by yahoo a lot these days. Does that count? From: emilymae.reyn emilymae.r...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 9:32 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world Share, as you go about your day, remember to watch those triggers of yours and take heed of what you are learning in your own words: I'm learning, especially here on FFL, that it's best NEVER to blast someone unkindly. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emilymae.reyn emilymae.reyn@... wrote: Share, here's another direct question for you. Re: Whereas I'm very triggered by what I call snide and sly attacks, how does being very triggered manifest within you? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emilymae.reyn emilymae.reyn@ wrote: Ha ha. Share, I laughed heartily at what you said also. What is triggered within you about yourself and your attempts at snide and sly? P.S. This is a direct question. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: Judy, obviously we have different definitions of snide and sly No, I don't think so, Share. At least, we didn't up until the moment you read my post. and also obviously you think yours is the right one. BTW, I don't consider this post snide and sly either. No, this one's just straightforwardly dishonest. But interesting to see that you're always on the alert for whatever it is you're always on the alert for. My, what an intelligent observation. From: authfriend authfriend@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:43 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: See, emptybill, according to Ann, it's ok if you scold Buck, but not ok if you scold Ravi. No go figuring needed, right? Share, Monday: I think I'm less bothered by turq because his attacks are straight forward. Whereas I'm very triggered by what I call snide and sly attacks. I guffawed at the hyposcrisy when I read that, since Share's primary mode of attack on FFL has always been snide and sly. But I figured I'd wait to make that observation until her next snide/sly attack. I didn't even have to wait 24 hours.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Empty baby - I only asked you to go the abode of Raakshasaas to provide the perspective on how the innocence and playfulness of this dark Krishna appears to them. You can come back now empty baby. Oh wait a minute - are you stuck baby? OMG - why did I ever ask you to go there, so stupid of me. That idiot empty thinks that is the reality - fuck !!! On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:54 PM, emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote: This is how the guile, artifice and self-indulgence of a fool displays itself o' ego-bloated brahma rakshasa. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Is this how the innocence, beauty and playfulness of Krishna comes across to you oh empty Rakshasaa? On Aug 26, 2013, at 7:12 PM, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: Raviola Yer like a teenage boy high on meth. Stop sounding like a fool ... fool. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
I see you empty..OMG how can I ever forgive myself [image: Inline image 1] On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Ravi Chivukula chivukula.r...@gmail.comwrote: Empty baby - I only asked you to go the abode of Raakshasaas to provide the perspective on how the innocence and playfulness of this dark Krishna appears to them. You can come back now empty baby. Oh wait a minute - are you stuck baby? OMG - why did I ever ask you to go there, so stupid of me. That idiot empty thinks that is the reality - fuck !!! On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:54 PM, emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote: This is how the guile, artifice and self-indulgence of a fool displays itself o' ego-bloated brahma rakshasa. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Is this how the innocence, beauty and playfulness of Krishna comes across to you oh empty Rakshasaa? On Aug 26, 2013, at 7:12 PM, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: Raviola Yer like a teenage boy high on meth. Stop sounding like a fool ... fool. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Grandpa Xeno -it's perfectly OK for you to share your experiences with the emotionally, psychologically stunted like Uncle Tantrum and Aunt Share, but please, I repeat DO NOT share your psychotically enlightened experiences with normal people. STAY AWAY FROM CIVILIZATION !!! On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: I experimented and researched. But eventually it was kind of full circle, I ended up reading about things that initially propelled me on the journey, and found answers to questions I could not find easily within the TM org and TM teachers. What propelled the restoration of interest in all this was a sudden unexpected shift in experience. Everything I had thought had failed, proved in retrospect to have been useful, but to have had more specific information at specific times in my life would possibly have made the process more efficient. I'm not convinced that would be true. Information that told you what an experience meant would have been just one more bit of misinformation, after all. The experience was what it was -- nothing more, and nothing less. I was thinking along the lines of not what a description of an experience means but how a description helps one navigate an experience. Obviously, if I have the thought that things might have been 'better' if I had had more useful information at the time, this thought is not going to apply to me now, but it might be useful to someone else later on, so they do not get quite so stuck. Not so much what this means, but what do I do, if anything, when such and such happens, and I do not understand what is happening? Certain traditional hand-me-downs do become useful, such as what a screw is, and what a screwdriver is, and how to use them in what circumstance, and how these items relate to sticking things together. After what I would call a very clear but subdued awakening experience some years ago, things were pretty nice for several years. There was something about this particular experience, unlike others I had had long ago, that I could not grasp in any way. Even the attempt to talk about it stymied me. Then all hell broke loose. A vast amount of repressed material rose up and flowed out of me. A total surprise. So clearly the awakening was not a clean slate. It was ultra intense, say twenty times more intense than anything I had experienced up to then. And the experience was truly unusual because while my regular life flowed along, there was this other stuff that I knew was not real, but it felt so real it was impossible to not act on it. It was like my mind was split in two with two parallel lives running simultaneously, one the present and the other thoughts, feelings, behaviours from long ago. I had no clue what was happening. If I had asked a TM teacher what was happening they probably would have said I was 'just unstressing, that I should take it easy and maybe get my meditation checked or something'. No really useful information or guidelines that apply directly. Extreme experiences like this seem to be swept under the rug by TM teachers, anything not in the template. I suspect they do not really have any training to handle them. I found a solution in what I was reading. It seems that after a clear awakening, one's ability to keep repressed material repressed simply falls apart. The can of worms is open, and if something triggers the experience, you cannot close it, and the experience really does seem like you are coming apart at the seams. All you can do is endure it. Nothing helps. It is as if finally there is enough room in your world to experience this. The intellectual knowledge that this is common, that others experienced it, and that it is super intense, and that you have to go through it because there is no way to back out, is really useful. Kind of like the emotional equivalent of childbirth as far as pain. That information, along with the stability conferred by awakening allowed me to get through it, just barely. Without that information I would have been a lot more confused, and perhaps would have done things even more stupid than had occurred to me to attempt at the time. Half of my time during this was acting on a mental delusion caused by the release. Finally it subsided after a few years. It was a strangely miserable/wonderful several years. After that my sense of stability was much, much greater, and the character of the experience that I had had before this happened was much clearer. Maybe it will happen again. I simply do not know. The result now I would not call bliss, but a sense of profound evenness that has been stable for some time. I have no illusions that this evenness will never be disrupted again. But it has been pretty nice.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
I just talked to Devi empty baby and she is - like me, really really concerned about your childish fantasies. Once you come back home - we can address your emotional, social handicaps. You are coming back home - aren't you empty baby? On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:23 PM, emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote: O' raviola you finally found me - appearing in the form of my mentor: * Vajrabhairava*, the impenetrable terrifier *who is death to death itself* and his wife ... *Vajravetali,* the adamintine vampiress who sucks the life-blood of the samaya breakers, the oath violators who violate their original words of divine honor to help sentient beings. However, as a Brahma-rakshasa you wouldn't know about that. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: I see you empty..OMG how can I ever forgive myself [image: Inline image 1] On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Ravi Chivukula chivukula.ravi@...wrote: Empty baby - I only asked you to go the abode of Raakshasaas to provide the perspective on how the innocence and playfulness of this dark Krishna appears to them. You can come back now empty baby. Oh wait a minute - are you stuck baby? OMG - why did I ever ask you to go there, so stupid of me. That idiot empty thinks that is the reality - fuck !!! On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:54 PM, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: This is how the guile, artifice and self-indulgence of a fool displays itself o' ego-bloated brahma rakshasa. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Is this how the innocence, beauty and playfulness of Krishna comes across to you oh empty Rakshasaa? On Aug 26, 2013, at 7:12 PM, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Raviola Yer like a teenage boy high on meth. Stop sounding like a fool ... fool. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Oh dear Ann please forgive my empty baby, the Devi I vouch for him. He may lack social, emotional skills, talk gibberish - but he is innocent and totally harmless. On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Ann awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: Annie Gottagun Oh empty chamber, all those bullets you keep expelling and now you're smoking hot. Thanks for finally clarifying it all. So glad you finally showed what you really learned in secret from the World Teacher. in secret? You too are now a discerner of intent and the disguised motivations of the demons. Are you a demon?! Yoiks and all this time I mistook you for this kinda bitter guy without the sweetness but a man nevertheless. Gotta a circle of disciples yet? Well, not a circle exactly, more like a trapezoidal figure. I'm not sure they're disciples exactly, they come and ride with me sometimes or help me pick apples in the orchard. Do you ever pick apples empty chamber/smoking gun? We have a rather large, abandoned orchard with pears and figs and plums (both golden and purple) blackberries, holly, peaches, cherries and the deer and rats and birds love to eat there. This is where I and my would-be disciples sometimes pick apples for the horses which we gather in wheelbarrows; there are just so many apples and these are many types of heritage apples grafted onto other apples trees by the previous property owner. Oh, and we have one horse buried in that orchard. An old jumper who deserved to be placed in the ground underneath the fruit trees so that he didn't have to be carted off and thrown into a pit at the local dump. He wasn't my horse but he earned the privilege to come and find a quiet resting spot after a life of racing for 8 years and jumping for another 12. My old mare of 29 years will be buried in that orchard next to him. Her name is Annapurna. You might like her; she is wise and gentle and beautiful. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Raviola Yer like a teenage boy high on meth. Stop sounding like a fool ... fool. EB, you are always scolding someone. Now you're sounding like Buck, at least in your intention to silence. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Devi is after me again empty baby - she is recommending this game for you http://www.muchgames.com/games/demon-girl-dress-up She thinks it may be the cure for your emotional handicap fueled fantasies. [image: Inline image 1] On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 5:18 PM, emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote: AnniePurna You got yer psycho-RN training from the World Teacher, so I know you already know how those demons subvert the innocents from using their free-will power-to-choose. Heh, Heh. FYI - A chamber has to be empty to receive the trust of the fitted bullet - but the heat only erupts as the round explodes. Also FYI - My mom was a jumper. My parents bred quarter-horse and appaloosa. One of the apps was a cutting horse and a joy to ride. But that was never my main interest. BTW - Enjoy your North American domicile while you can - after all the 'smericans you chanuckistani's hate are the sole protectors of your sweet hyperborean paradise. Just remember that death is stalking us all, even when we're acting like it isn't so. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Annie Gottagun Oh empty chamber, all those bullets you keep expelling and now you're smoking hot. Thanks for finally clarifying it all. So glad you finally showed what you really learned in secret from the World Teacher. in secret? You too are now a discerner of intent and the disguised motivations of the demons. Are you a demon?! Yoiks and all this time I mistook you for this kinda bitter guy without the sweetness but a man nevertheless. Gotta a circle of disciples yet? Well, not a circle exactly, more like a trapezoidal figure. I'm not sure they're disciples exactly, they come and ride with me sometimes or help me pick apples in the orchard. Do you ever pick apples empty chamber/smoking gun? We have a rather large, abandoned orchard with pears and figs and plums (both golden and purple) blackberries, holly, peaches, cherries and the deer and rats and birds love to eat there. This is where I and my would-be disciples sometimes pick apples for the horses which we gather in wheelbarrows; there are just so many apples and these are many types of heritage apples grafted onto other apples trees by the previous property owner. Oh, and we have one horse buried in that orchard. An old jumper who deserved to be placed in the ground underneath the fruit trees so that he didn't have to be carted off and thrown into a pit at the local dump. He wasn't my horse but he earned the privilege to come and find a quiet resting spot after a life of racing for 8 years and jumping for another 12. My old mare of 29 years will be buried in that orchard next to him. Her name is Annapurna. You might like her; she is wise and gentle and beautiful. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Raviola Yer like a teenage boy high on meth. Stop sounding like a fool ... fool. EB, you are always scolding someone. Now you're sounding like Buck, at least in your intention to silence. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Do you realize Grandpa Xeno how psychopathically deranged your experiences sound? You are too alienated emotionally, psychologically - god I felt so sick reading your vomit. On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: Over the years I've been on this forum, I have gradually ceased to believe that there is a universally applicable scheme for the development of enlightenment, such that if someone doesn't have *this* experience or does have *that* experience, it means they are (or are not) enlightened. Some experiences (or lack of same) may be more common than others, but you can't make absolute, across-the-board rules that apply to all individuals without exception, any more than you can do it with the experience of falling in love. The uniqueness of first-person ontology remains just that. My opinion, anyway. [to Dr Dumbass] Not what I meant by scheme. I meant something like Maharishi's Seven States of Consciousness--an outline, format, a schedule, a list of symptoms. First-person ontology is the thing that enlightenment gets rid of, I question this and every other statement you've made in this post that you apply across the board, as opposed to describing your own experience. I am describing my own experience. That is all I have. There is just experience. Not experiences, with an 's', but experience, singular. Experience*s* are like sub directories or folders on a computer. It is not uncommon these days, others on this forum certainly seem to be experiencing something similar. There are a number of people in Fairfield having this kind of experience. And, I am confident, many others in all walks of life having these experiences. It is in the air. It is not just a matter of TM, there are lots of groups and people bent on awakening and succeeding. I say these things across the board because that is the way I experience these things and there is some support in the environment for this way of describing human experience in long term meditators. None of this is special with me. You have every prerogative to question (although you have not actually questioned anything above, you have only stated that you question it). Mapping out benchmarks for spiritual development is a minefield because as you said, 'I think there are likely many exceptions and anomalies', so there are people who are not going to fit the mold. My outline using the terms M used is just one way one could try to map general categories of experience. For example, Charles Manson shows a number of characteristics of unity if we examine his statements, but he is also insane, a psychopath, and lacks certain characteristics that a presumably normal person would have, so he would be a significant outlier in any scheme that purports to categorise enlightenment benchmarks. I have a collection of Classical music recordings. I always have trouble trying to shelf them in some coherent way. My system here is generally by time period and the composer's name, using the date of death as a marker within a time period and beyond that I can remember where most composers lie on the time line. I think M's scheme for enlightenment is workable for many people, it is more detailed than some schemes, but in the end any scheme turns out to be nonsense, but it has applicability for giving one a bearing while on the path. If a person's experience is anomalous, a scheme will appear to be wrong to that person. In retrospect a scheme might even seem more on point than when one was on the path, because when you are on the path, you do not really know what you are headed for, or even where you are, and a benchmark isn't a specific experience, it is an general category of experience so making a mistake in interpreting what is going on is certainly a reasonable assumption. Even the belief in a scheme might be useful just to keep you going. My experiences were in some ways anomalous and that led to much doubt. I went through a long period where I did not want to read anything about spiritual development, meditating all the while, but just not interested in hearing about or discussing it. Also run-of-the-mill TM discussions can be incredibly boring. At any point in a spiritual path all one really needs is information that applies directly to what one's experience or experiences are just at that time, and not any other drivel; it does not always work to apply cookie cutter templates. The TM movement does not really want you to look at other stuff, but eventually that is what helped me most; I took complete control of my 'program' away from the movement over time because it failed to provide the information I
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Xeno and turq, great discussion here and 2 points: first, my understanding of neti neti is that it's a phase on the spiritual path when one is subtly recognizing what enlightenment is NOT in terms of experience rather than theories as presented below. This phase is followed by another which could be characterized by the words: and this also, and this also. Secondly, I personally find Maharishi's teaching great exactly because it is so simple and allows for wide variety of experience. As a map it gives, IMO, great overall directions which frees up one's attention and allows a person to enjoy the scenery all along the way. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 3:36 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: I am describing my own experience. That is all I have. snip An argument that will be lost on many here. The *most* common description of long-term TMers one encounters out in the larger spiritual marketplace is Stuck in their heads. They've been given SO many maps that they have lost touch with the fact that at best they were crude representations of a territory, and in most cases one they've never walked. Bear in mind that when dealing with enlightenment, one is ultimately not dealing with rational discourse, but dealing with a quality of life that underlies, so to speak, everything else in experience, one attempts to align with that, but one is not always able to apply the intellect to a situation because intellect is a subset of experience, kind of in its own little compartment; it handles attempting to organise verbal representations a wider world of experience, but is not that experience, it's a filter for that experience, which means something is cut out or blocked when it is use. Yup. What has often fascinated me is the number of supposed seekers who use intellectual understanding to *block* the very experience they're seeking. As far as I can tell, the more strongly people believe that they know what enlightenment is, the less likely they are to ever experience it. If you fail to align with the wider experience, you try again, and again. You are not polishing your intellect - it might improve, or even get worse. You are polishing something you cannot even see, kind of like a seagull riding the currents of the air, learning to gracefully move on a bedrock of mystery. I would characterize what you are describing more in terms of neti neti -- trying on different theories and then discarding them, one after another. snip
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Is this what Grandpa Xeno had to say in his defense? Why can't he say so himself? Why does he need you to speak on his behalf? What do the doctors say - that it's acceptable behavior as long as the object of the deranged rant not a family member? It's very frustrating, there seems to be no end in sight to Grandpa's pathological behavior. P.S may be you were joking but Judy's not my aunt - YOU are, unless you are singing Grandpa tune? OMG - I hope not. On Aug 26, 2013, at 4:57 AM, sharelong60 sharelon...@yahoo.com wrote: but but but Ravi, Xeno wrote this in reply to your aunt Judy! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula chivukula.ravi@... wrote: OMFG get a clue, next time please keep your intellectual vomit to yourselves no one other than my deluded Aunt Share even pays attention to your bullshit. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Do you realize Grandpa Xeno how psychopathically deranged your experiences sound? You are too alienated emotionally, psychologically - god I felt so sick reading your vomit. On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: Over the years I've been on this forum, I have gradually ceased to believe that there is a universally applicable scheme for the development of enlightenment, such that if someone doesn't have *this* experience or does have *that* experience, it means they are (or are not) enlightened. Some experiences (or lack of same) may be more common than others, but you can't make absolute, across-the-board rules that apply to all individuals without exception, any more than you can do it with the experience of falling in love. The uniqueness of first-person ontology remains just that. My opinion, anyway. [to Dr Dumbass] Not what I meant by scheme. I meant something like Maharishi's Seven States of Consciousness--an outline, format, a schedule, a list of symptoms. First-person ontology is the thing that enlightenment gets rid of, I question this and every other statement you've made in this post that you apply across the board, as opposed to describing your own experience. I am describing my own experience. That is all I have. There is just experience. Not experiences, with an 's', but experience, singular. Experience*s* are like sub directories or folders on a computer. It is not uncommon these days, others on this forum certainly seem to be experiencing something similar. There are a number of people in Fairfield having this kind of experience. And, I am confident, many others in all walks of life having these experiences. It is in the air. It is not just a matter of TM, there are lots of groups and people bent on awakening and succeeding. I say these things across the board because that is the way I experience these things and there is some support in the environment for this way of describing human experience in long term meditators. None of this is special with me. You have every prerogative to question (although you have not actually questioned anything above, you have only stated that you question it). Mapping out benchmarks for spiritual development is a minefield because as you said, 'I think there are likely many exceptions and anomalies', so there are people who are not going to fit the mold. My outline using the terms M used is just one way one could try to map general categories of experience. For example, Charles Manson shows a number of characteristics of unity if we examine his statements, but he is also insane, a psychopath, and lacks certain characteristics that a presumably normal person would have, so he would be a significant outlier in any scheme that purports to categorise enlightenment benchmarks. I have a collection of Classical music recordings. I always have trouble trying to shelf them in some coherent way. My system here is generally by time period and the composer's name, using the date of death as a marker within a time period and beyond that I can remember where most composers lie on the time line. I think M's scheme for enlightenment is workable for many people, it is more detailed than some schemes, but in the end any scheme turns out to be nonsense, but it has applicability for giving one a bearing while on the path. If a person's experience is anomalous, a scheme will appear to be wrong to that person. In retrospect a scheme might even seem more on point than when one was on the path, because when you are on the path, you do not really know what you are headed for, or even where you are, and a benchmark isn't a specific experience, it is an general category of experience so making a mistake in interpreting what
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Is this how the innocence, beauty and playfulness of Krishna comes across to you oh empty Rakshasaa? On Aug 26, 2013, at 7:12 PM, emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote: Raviola Yer like a teenage boy high on meth. Stop sounding like a fool ... fool. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Is this what Grandpa Xeno had to say in his defense? Why can't he say so himself? Why does he need you to speak on his behalf? What do the doctors say - that it's acceptable behavior as long as the object of the deranged rant not a family member? It's very frustrating, there seems to be no end in sight to Grandpa's pathological behavior. P.S may be you were joking but Judy's not my aunt - YOU are, unless you are singing Grandpa tune? OMG - I hope not. On Aug 26, 2013, at 4:57 AM, sharelong60 sharelong60@... wrote: but but but Ravi, Xeno wrote this in reply to your aunt Judy! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula chivukula.ravi@ wrote: OMFG get a clue, next time please keep your intellectual vomit to yourselves no one other than my deluded Aunt Share even pays attention to your bullshit. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Do you realize Grandpa Xeno how psychopathically deranged your experiences sound? You are too alienated emotionally, psychologically - god I felt so sick reading your vomit. On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: Over the years I've been on this forum, I have gradually ceased to believe that there is a universally applicable scheme for the development of enlightenment, such that if someone doesn't have *this* experience or does have *that* experience, it means they are (or are not) enlightened. Some experiences (or lack of same) may be more common than others, but you can't make absolute, across-the-board rules that apply to all individuals without exception, any more than you can do it with the experience of falling in love. The uniqueness of first-person ontology remains just that. My opinion, anyway. [to Dr Dumbass] Not what I meant by scheme. I meant something like Maharishi's Seven States of Consciousness--an outline, format, a schedule, a list of symptoms. First-person ontology is the thing that enlightenment gets rid of, I question this and every other statement you've made in this post that you apply across the board, as opposed to describing your own experience. I am describing my own experience. That is all I have. There is just experience. Not experiences, with an 's', but experience, singular. Experience*s* are like sub directories or folders on a computer. It is not uncommon these days, others on this forum certainly seem to be experiencing something similar. There are a number of people in Fairfield having this kind of experience. And, I am confident, many others in all walks of life having these experiences. It is in the air. It is not just a matter of TM, there are lots of groups and people bent on awakening and succeeding. I say these things across the board because that is the way I experience these things and there is some support in the environment for this way of describing human experience in long term meditators. None of this is special with me. You have every prerogative to question (although you have not actually questioned anything above, you have only stated that you question it). Mapping out benchmarks for spiritual development is a minefield because as you said, 'I think there are likely many exceptions and anomalies', so there are people who are not going to fit the mold. My outline using the terms M used is just one way one could try to map general categories of experience. For example, Charles Manson shows a number of characteristics of unity if we examine his statements, but he is also insane, a psychopath, and lacks certain characteristics that a presumably normal person would have, so he would be a significant outlier in any scheme that purports to categorise enlightenment benchmarks. I have a collection of Classical music recordings. I always have trouble trying to shelf them in some coherent way. My system here is generally by time period and the composer's name, using the date of death as a marker within a time period and beyond that I can remember where most composers lie on the time line. I think M's scheme for enlightenment is workable for many people, it is more detailed than some schemes, but in the end any scheme turns out to be nonsense, but it has applicability for giving one a bearing while on the path. If a person's experience is anomalous, a scheme will appear to be
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Basicaly, in eastern philosophy enlightenment is an one way trip. You discover who you are and that's it. One way trip to where? What is this you discover you are and that's it? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Jason jedi_sp...@yahoo.com wrote: ** --- emilymae.reyn emilymae.reyn@... wrote: Re: You speak as if he really had an enlightenment experience. Of course he did, you numbskull - not that he now considers it the accurate reality by which life is lived. You should be able to pick up on this - even I, with enlightenment experiences (back in the day) attributable only to LSD, have the requisite brain cells left necessary to objectively determine this fact. You haven't done your research. Clearly he wrote sincerely - back then and now (and even as the Master of Irony - he's sincere - that's the brilliance of it all, really). Jason, you need to pull your head out of your ass on this and go get a cuppa something. I agree that he wrote sincerely. However, I doubt that he was really in enlightenment or any higher state. Robin's recount of those experiences simply doesn't tally with the accounts of other yogis and seekers. Basicaly, in eastern philosophy enlightenment is an one way trip. You discover who you are and that's it. --- turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: snip Uh-huh. Delusional then, when thinking that the Ayatollah Khomeini was in Unity Consciousness (just like him) but so NOT delusional now, when trying to blame all of this on intelligences and forces beyond his own control and understanding. --- authfriend authfriend@ wrote: For the record, Robin has repeatedly blamed his own character flaws for the ability of these intelligences and forces he speaks of to influence him. Barry carefully omits to mention this. --- Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: You mean something like the devil or satan? --- authfriend authfriend@ wrote: I suppose something *like* that, but you'd have to ask him. --- Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: Could it be 'Dissociative Identity Disorder'? http://sfhelp.org/gwc/false_self.htm http://sfhelp.org/gwc/false_self.htm Robin's statement is downright schizophrenic. Oh? Would you like to elaborate? (Which statement?) --- Jason jedi_spock@ wrote: He speaks as if he literally sees these intelligences and forces, which IMO are imaginary. Has it occured to you that it's *you* who could be in delusion about Robin's enlightenment and experiences? What would my delusion be, exactly? What do you think my beliefs are about Robin? Just out of curiosity, do you believe there is no intelligence nor any forces in the universe beyond your control and understanding? You speak as if he really had an enlightenment experience.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
What is this stubbornness emptybill? You are saying you will use the experiences of someone, the context, the narrative of someone from thousands of years ago as the yardstick for someone who has mystical experiences now - in this modern age? Do you think Advaita Vedanta is an actual insight into reality? Is proposing a model of reality? Or is it merely a technique or a philosophy? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 7:00 PM, emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote: ** Those claiming enlightenment should be able to offer comparative proof based upon something other than their own subjectivity or my guru/former guru sez. However, not only Robin but you also seem willfully uninformed about the subject as described by the texts of traditional advaita. Thus you ask - *What good would it (have done/now do) to examine his experiences in light of other descriptions. * Other descriptions are incidental since they are experiential and can not possibly self-certify knowledge. He might have compared his actual situation with knowledge in Vedanta and realized that no process of experience could ever *be *liberation nor could it ever *give *liberation or some so-called enlightenment. Were he was not indulging in self-delusion, he might have tried to find out more. Then again he was not taught more - nor apparently was he interested in learning more. --- *In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend ** wrote:* --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Yep, went back and read posts 312097 and 299555. I pointed out to the Muni of Monte Cassino (a number of times) that none of the descriptions of his purported Unity Consciousness conform to Shankara's explanations - whether in the BrahmaSutraBhasya, UpanishadBhasya or BhagavadGitaBhasya. Such grand enlightenment appears to have been Robin's own neo-Advaitic epiphanies later aggrandized and grafted upon Maharishi's explanations. * Nuh-uh. Maharishi's teaching was where he first encountered explanations of enlightenment.* Maharishi's descriptions themselves are a form of neo-yogic advaita and Robin was unwilling to tacitly match his own purported enlightenment with the explanations of traditional advaita. *Right. He was a disciple of Maharishi.* He wouldn't even continue a conversation bringing it up for consideration. This unwillingness was, for me, a clue to Robin's delusive self-absorption . * Actually it was completely irrelevant. Think about it for a minute. What good would it have done him at this point to consider matching his experience with that of other descriptions? What good would it have done him back then, for that matter? You've really never made any sense on this topic, empty.*
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
iranitea, I would say that this is a description of the movement from CC to GC where fullness of fullness, the Absolute moves into the fullness of emptiness, the relative. The Self in CC has recognized that there is something else and the heartfelt inquiry into what that something else is, fuels the ability to overcome the fear of that emptiness. Of course under the influence of a soma laden physiology, especially the heart, that emptiness turns out to be the fullness of emptiness so not separate at all. And would it not be wonderful if these concepts were not merely allegorical but also quite literal, mean physical. From: iranitea no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 6:13 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... no_reply@... wrote: Robin could have been in Unity consciousness, where similarity predominates, over differences. But that SOC is still relative to one's singular identity. The identity must shift to a less localized state to grow beyond the Unity SOC. The core fear of duality is still present in the Unity SOC, although the perception that this duality is an illusion begins to take hold, due to the incontrovertible oneness that the heart and intellect begin to sense, outwardly. Dr.D this is an interesting POV, what you say makes sense (even though, I don't know what is really the case here). But it does remind me of a series of tapes - probably the spiritual development course - where he speaks of the fullness of fullness, and the fullness of emptiness (both he calls 'fullness'). Obviously emptiness is synonymous of duality here. (I don't think he means the emptiness of the Buddhists). He then goes on to describe, that the fullness, obviously Unity, despite of the fact that it is everywhere, senses, that there is a place where it is not,at least the possibility of such a place, emptiness, and he speaks of Fullness moving because of the fear it has of emptiness - Fullness is on the move - was the phrase he used. I always thought, this is highly allegorically, fullness on the move would be a synonym for Shakti, but may be it is borne out of an experience, just like the one you describe.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Xeno, reading Sam Harris is like drinking cool, clean water from a pristine, gurgling mountain stream. Thanks for posting. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:52 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... no_reply@... wrote: Ironic that the neuroscientists are completely unfamiliar with their conscious minds *not* being in a constant state of thought. White rats, chasing other white rats. A few moments of their own mental peace might turn their attention away from always studying undeveloped minds. It as if science can do no better than to validate an immature state of the mind, because the limited awareness of the scientists, cannot see any further. What a total waste of time. Not true Dr. Sam Harris, a neuroscientist discusses some of this: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/whats-the-point-of-transcendence
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
PS to Xeno: but of course I can't help but wonder what Sam Harris would say about my earlier post this morning on the topic of fullness of fullness and fullness of emptiness! From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:52 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... no_reply@... wrote: Ironic that the neuroscientists are completely unfamiliar with their conscious minds *not* being in a constant state of thought. White rats, chasing other white rats. A few moments of their own mental peace might turn their attention away from always studying undeveloped minds. It as if science can do no better than to validate an immature state of the mind, because the limited awareness of the scientists, cannot see any further. What a total waste of time. Not true Dr. Sam Harris, a neuroscientist discusses some of this: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/whats-the-point-of-transcendence
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Doc, I think we're saying the same thing, simply using different language. I agree that the Me Self of CC and the Me Self of GC are the same, infinite, absolute, fullness of fullness NON CHANGING. But in CC the relative is seen as separate and different, ever changing. Actually Maharishi calls the relative a mass of death, because of its ever changing quality. It is not until the finest relative joins the Me Self in infinitude that UC is realized. From: doctordumb...@rocketmail.com doctordumb...@rocketmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 8:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world I am sorry, but this is incorrect, Share. The movement from CC to GC is one of perceiving the finest relative. This gives the mind the entire spectrum of perceived reality to consider, but is not the movement from UC, onward. Both the me of CC, and the me of GC are the same. There can also be finest perception in GC and not a shred of UC. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: iranitea, I would say that this is a description of the movement from CC to GC where fullness of fullness, the Absolute moves into the fullness of emptiness, the relative. The Self in CC has recognized that there is something else and the heartfelt inquiry into what that something else is, fuels the ability to overcome the fear of that emptiness. Of course under the influence of a soma laden physiology, especially the heart, that emptiness turns out to be the fullness of emptiness so not separate at all. And would it not be wonderful if these concepts were not merely allegorical but also quite literal, mean physical. From: iranitea no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 6:13 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ no_reply@ wrote: Robin could have been in Unity consciousness, where similarity predominates, over differences. But that SOC is still relative to one's singular identity. The identity must shift to a less localized state to grow beyond the Unity SOC. The core fear of duality is still present in the Unity SOC, although the perception that this duality is an illusion begins to take hold, due to the incontrovertible oneness that the heart and intellect begin to sense, outwardly. Dr.D this is an interesting POV, what you say makes sense (even though, I don't know what is really the case here). But it does remind me of a series of tapes - probably the spiritual development course - where he speaks of the fullness of fullness, and the fullness of emptiness (both he calls 'fullness'). Obviously emptiness is synonymous of duality here. (I don't think he means the emptiness of the Buddhists). He then goes on to describe, that the fullness, obviously Unity, despite of the fact that it is everywhere, senses, that there is a place where it is not,at least the possibility of such a place, emptiness, and he speaks of Fullness moving because of the fear it has of emptiness - Fullness is on the move - was the phrase he used. I always thought, this is highly allegorically, fullness on the move would be a synonym for Shakti, but may be it is borne out of an experience, just like the one you describe.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
I'd say this is why Maharishi came out with the sidhas: so that these concepts do not have to be torture but can be simply yet fully lived. From: doctordumb...@rocketmail.com doctordumb...@rocketmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 8:30 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world To your last point, yes, these concepts are torture, if they are not realized. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... no_reply@... wrote: I am sorry, but this is incorrect, Share. The movement from CC to GC is one of perceiving the finest relative. This gives the mind the entire spectrum of perceived reality to consider, but is not the movement from UC, onward. Both the me of CC, and the me of GC are the same. There can also be finest perception in GC and not a shred of UC. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: iranitea, I would say that this is a description of the movement from CC to GC where fullness of fullness, the Absolute moves into the fullness of emptiness, the relative. The Self in CC has recognized that there is something else and the heartfelt inquiry into what that something else is, fuels the ability to overcome the fear of that emptiness. Of course under the influence of a soma laden physiology, especially the heart, that emptiness turns out to be the fullness of emptiness so not separate at all. And would it not be wonderful if these concepts were not merely allegorical but also quite literal, mean physical. From: iranitea no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 6:13 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ no_reply@ wrote: Robin could have been in Unity consciousness, where similarity predominates, over differences. But that SOC is still relative to one's singular identity. The identity must shift to a less localized state to grow beyond the Unity SOC. The core fear of duality is still present in the Unity SOC, although the perception that this duality is an illusion begins to take hold, due to the incontrovertible oneness that the heart and intellect begin to sense, outwardly. Dr.D this is an interesting POV, what you say makes sense (even though, I don't know what is really the case here). But it does remind me of a series of tapes - probably the spiritual development course - where he speaks of the fullness of fullness, and the fullness of emptiness (both he calls 'fullness'). Obviously emptiness is synonymous of duality here. (I don't think he means the emptiness of the Buddhists). He then goes on to describe, that the fullness, obviously Unity, despite of the fact that it is everywhere, senses, that there is a place where it is not,at least the possibility of such a place, emptiness, and he speaks of Fullness moving because of the fear it has of emptiness - Fullness is on the move - was the phrase he used. I always thought, this is highly allegorically, fullness on the move would be a synonym for Shakti, but may be it is borne out of an experience, just like the one you describe.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
I think they know it already. And like the rest of us, doing their best to live this knowing in life (-: From: doctordumb...@rocketmail.com doctordumb...@rocketmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 9:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world Sounds good - please pass this along to those practicing the sidhi techniques! :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: I'd say this is why Maharishi came out with the sidhas: so that these concepts do not have to be torture but can be simply yet fully lived. From: doctordumbass@... doctordumbass@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 8:30 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world  To your last point, yes, these concepts are torture, if they are not realized. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ no_reply@ wrote: I am sorry, but this is incorrect, Share. The movement from CC to GC is one of perceiving the finest relative. This gives the mind the entire spectrum of perceived reality to consider, but is not the movement from UC, onward. Both the me of CC, and the me of GC are the same. There can also be finest perception in GC and not a shred of UC. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: iranitea, I would say that this is a description of the movement from CC to GC where fullness of fullness, the Absolute moves into the fullness of emptiness, the relative. The Self in CC has recognized that there is something else and the heartfelt inquiry into what that something else is, fuels the ability to overcome the fear of that emptiness. Of course under the influence of a soma laden physiology, especially the heart, that emptiness turns out to be the fullness of emptiness so not separate at all. And would it not be wonderful if these concepts were not merely allegorical but also quite literal, mean physical. From: iranitea no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 6:13 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ no_reply@ wrote: Robin could have been in Unity consciousness, where similarity predominates, over differences. But that SOC is still relative to one's singular identity. The identity must shift to a less localized state to grow beyond the Unity SOC. The core fear of duality is still present in the Unity SOC, although the perception that this duality is an illusion begins to take hold, due to the incontrovertible oneness that the heart and intellect begin to sense, outwardly. Dr.D this is an interesting POV, what you say makes sense (even though, I don't know what is really the case here). But it does remind me of a series of tapes - probably the spiritual development course - where he speaks of the fullness of fullness, and the fullness of emptiness (both he calls 'fullness'). Obviously emptiness is synonymous of duality here. (I don't think he means the emptiness of the Buddhists). He then goes on to describe, that the fullness, obviously Unity, despite of the fact that it is everywhere, senses, that there is a place where it is not,at least the possibility of such a place, emptiness, and he speaks of Fullness moving because of the fear it has of emptiness - Fullness is on the move - was the phrase he used. I always thought, this is highly allegorically, fullness on the move would be a synonym for Shakti, but may be it is borne out of an experience, just like the one you describe.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Doc, if Arjuna had been in UC at the beginning of the Gita, then Krishna would not have needed to tell him to be without the three gunas! From: doctordumb...@rocketmail.com doctordumb...@rocketmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:29 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world Robin could have been in Unity consciousness, where similarity predominates, over differences. But that SOC is still relative to one's singular identity. The identity must shift to a less localized state to grow beyond the Unity SOC. The core fear of duality is still present in the Unity SOC, although the perception that this duality is an illusion begins to take hold, due to the incontrovertible oneness that the heart and intellect begin to sense, outwardly. Unity isn't the end of the road, simply the furthest Maharishi could go with a symptomatic description. Unity is not the same thing as Yoga, or Union, comprehensively. Unity SOC is the state of Arjuna's mind before Krishna's discourse takes him beyond That. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Yep, went back and read posts 312097 and 299555. I pointed out to the Muni of Monte Cassino (a number of times) that none of the descriptions of his purported Unity Consciousness conform to Shankara's explanations - whether in the BrahmaSutraBhasya, UpanishadBhasya or BhagavadGitaBhasya. Such grand enlightenment appears to have been Robin's own neo-Advaitic epiphanies later aggrandized and grafted upon Maharishi's explanations. Nuh-uh. Maharishi's teaching was where he first encountered explanations of enlightenment. Maharishi's descriptions themselves are a form of neo-yogic advaita and Robin was unwilling to tacitly match his own purported enlightenment with the explanations of traditional advaita. Right. He was a disciple of Maharishi. He wouldn't even continue a conversation bringing it up for consideration. This unwillingness was, for me, a clue to Robin's delusive self-absorption . Actually it was completely irrelevant. Think about it for a minute. What good would it have done him at this point to consider matching his experience with that of other descriptions? What good would it have done him back then, for that matter? You've really never made any sense on this topic, empty.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
MJ has a harsher view of MMY, and seems to favor the idea that MMY was indeed a charlatan, telling people things that he didn't believe or that he knew weren't true, just for the money, or for the ego-strokes, or for the attention, or just because. I don't. I think that he spent so much time in trance states that he believed were higher or more real than other people's perceptions that he could pop himself into one of them pretty much any time he wanted, and thus program his senses into seeing things that *agreed* with his beliefs, even if those things weren't really there. I can see how you would come to that conclusion, but that is not exactly what I believe. Having talked to many including some here on FFL the Big M seemed to have an ability to both radiate energy and spark energy experiences in others. Now some may say that our experiences are totally ours to create, but what many say is that their experiences were often quite profound around M. I feel that Marshy took what he understood from the vedic body of knowledge and his understanding of what he taught was true from his point of view. I guess he may have felt some of what he taught was possible, such as enlightenment is possible in 3-5 years. Or maybe he just threw that out to have something to say when folks asked. Where I feel he was a fraud was in continuing to teach or imply that such things were going to happen when he knew they were not going to happen. Like enlightenment in a short amount of time. Like claiming 95% of the world's positive energy came from people doing TM (I heard Bevan quoting M on that one). The assertion that TMSP practice was 10,000 times more powerful than TM alone, I think he said that as a marketing ploy. The fraud also came in when he asked repeatedly for funds for the pundit and yogic flying groups and used the money for other purposes. Fraud in claiming that suddenly after about 50 years of teaching the orientation of a house was of the utmost importance. Also the practice of telling his followers to be celibate, including married couples while he himself was having sex. That is the kind of fraud I refer to. But if I had to say so, I would say I think he believed the basics of doing TM to gain enlightenment. But anyway that's what I think. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:01 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world This article/research is not exactly a surprise, and not even new. There have been similar studies in the past that proved that when it comes to the question of Which comes first, perception or belief?, the answer is pretty much *always* Belief. That is why I was uncomfortable with an exchange here earlier this month, in which people were throwing around the word charlatan to describe someone (I honestly don't remember who at this point), and seemingly expecting me to pile on. I can't do that, even with Maharishi or Fred Lenz - Rama. I don't consider either of them charlatans in the sense that most people use that word, because it describes someone who knowingly deceives others, and doesn't believe the things he is saying. I think both of them believed pretty much every word that they said. I think they believed it so strongly, in fact, that these beliefs caused them to delude themselves into seeing and feeling things that supported those beliefs. Their beliefs *programmed* their own brains into seeing things that weren't there, and that had no relationship to reality as most people perceive it. MJ has a harsher view of MMY, and seems to favor the idea that MMY was indeed a charlatan, telling people things that he didn't believe or that he knew weren't true, just for the money, or for the ego-strokes, or for the attention, or just because. I don't. I think that he spent so much time in trance states that he believed were higher or more real than other people's perceptions that he could pop himself into one of them pretty much any time he wanted, and thus program his senses into seeing things that *agreed* with his beliefs, even if those things weren't really there. The classic example is the one-liner that even TBs laugh at, because (except for a vocal and even more delusional few on this forum who never spent *any* time around Maharishi) they've all seen it, too. How many have had this experience? [Three hands go up in a room full of hundreds of people] See? Almost everyone. IMO he really DID see a room full of waving hands, because he believed that was what should have happened. Therefore, for him, it really *did* happen. But it didn't. Understanding this mechanism of belief driving perception (and NOT vice-versa) is in my experience key to developing a more compassionate and balanced view of the world of holy men and shysters who proliferate on this backwards planet. My bet
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
livescience.com might want to change it's name to pretentiousscience.com or fascistscience.com. They obviously have an agenda and it's not science but the herd people into being good, non-complaining consumers. The conspiracy thing caught my eye and in their context instead of being about political conspiracies it should be about family and friends conspiring against the individual. And of course that too DOES happen. Perhaps these scientists might try going a few days without sleep until they become delusional to really understand what it's about. Sleep deprivation is all it takes to make someone crazy and usually only temporarily. On 08/22/2013 07:04 AM, doctordumb...@rocketmail.com wrote: Ironic that the neuroscientists are completely unfamiliar with their conscious minds *not* being in a constant state of thought. White rats, chasing other white rats. A few moments of their own mental peace might turn their attention away from always studying undeveloped minds. It as if science can do no better than to validate an immature state of the mind, because the limited awareness of the scientists, cannot see any further. What a total waste of time. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: Delusional People See the World Through Their Mind's Eye A mechanism for how the brain creates and maintains delusions is revealed in a new study. Having delusions, such as a belief in telekinesis, can influence how people see the world - literally. Human beliefs http://www.livescience.com/16748-americans-beliefs-paranormal-infograph\ http://www.livescience.com/16748-americans-beliefs-paranormal-infograph ic.html are shaped by perception, but the new research suggests delusions --- unfounded but tightly held beliefs --- can turn the tables and actually shape perception. People who are prone to forming delusions may not correctly distinguish among different sensory inputs, and may rely on these delusions to help make sense of the world, the study finds. Typical delusions include paranoid ideas or inflated ideas about oneself. Beliefs form in order to minimize our surprise about the world, said neuroscientist Phil Corlett of Yale University in New Haven, Conn., who was not involved in the study. Our expectations override what we actually see, Corlett added. The prevailing thinking holds that people develop delusions http://www.livescience.com/5508-people-unsure-beliefs-close-minded.html\ http://www.livescience.com/5508-people-unsure-beliefs-close-minded.html to predict how events in their lives will occur --- just as Pavlov's dog learned to predict that the sound of a bell ringing meant dinnertime was imminent. Humans update their beliefs when what they predict doesn't match what they actually experience, Corlett said. But delusions often appear to override the evidence of the senses. To test this idea, German and Swedish researchers conducted behavioral and neuroimaging experiments on healthy people who harbor delusions. In one experiment, volunteers were given a questionnaire designed to measure delusional beliefs. Questions included: Do you ever feel as if people are reading your mind?; Do you ever feel as if there is a conspiracy against you http://www.livescience.com/11375-top-ten-conspiracy-theories.html ?; Do you ever feel as if you are, or destined to be someone very important?; and Are you often worried that your partner may be unfaithful? The participants then performed a task that tested their visual perception: They were shown a sphere-shaped set of dots rotating in an ambiguous direction, and asked to report which direction it was rotating at various intervals. People who harbored a greater number of delusional beliefs (those who scored higher on the questionnaire) saw the dots appear to change direction more often than the average person. The result confirms findings from previous studies that delusional individuals have less stable perceptions of the world. In a second experiment, the volunteers were given glasses, which they were told would bias their view so that the rotating dots would appear to go in one direction http://www.livescience.com/14093-optical-illusions-gallery.html more often than the other direction --- a delusion, because these were actually ordinary glasses. The volunteers performed a similar dot-watching task, with a learning phase and a test phase. During the learning phase, the dots clearly rotated in one direction, but during the test phase, the direction was ambiguous. While wearing the glasses, the volunteers reported seeing the dots rotate in the biased direction, even during the test phase. They clung to the delusion that the glasses altered their vision, even though the visual evidence contradicted this idea, suggesting they used their delusional beliefs to interpret what they were seeing. A third
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
I bet sleep deprivation is only one of the ordeals that Bradley Manning suffered. No wonder he wants to change his name. It's a miracle that he's still functional. From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world livescience.com might want to change it's name to pretentiousscience.com or fascistscience.com. They obviously have an agenda and it's not science but the herd people into being good, non-complaining consumers. The conspiracy thing caught my eye and in their context instead of being about political conspiracies it should be about family and friends conspiring against the individual. And of course that too DOES happen. Perhaps these scientists might try going a few days without sleep until they become delusional to really understand what it's about. Sleep deprivation is all it takes to make someone crazy and usually only temporarily. On 08/22/2013 07:04 AM, doctordumb...@rocketmail.com wrote: Ironic that the neuroscientists are completely unfamiliar with their conscious minds *not* being in a constant state of thought. White rats, chasing other white rats. A few moments of their own mental peace might turn their attention away from always studying undeveloped minds. It as if science can do no better than to validate an immature state of the mind, because the limited awareness of the scientists, cannot see any further. What a total waste of time. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: Delusional People See the World Through Their Mind's Eye A mechanism for how the brain creates and maintains delusions is revealed in a new study. Having delusions, such as a belief in telekinesis, can influence how people see the world - literally. Human beliefs http://www.livescience.com/16748-americans-beliefs-paranormal-infograph\ ic.html are shaped by perception, but the new research suggests delusions — unfounded but tightly held beliefs — can turn the tables and actually shape perception. People who are prone to forming delusions may not correctly distinguish among different sensory inputs, and may rely on these delusions to help make sense of the world, the study finds. Typical delusions include paranoid ideas or inflated ideas about oneself. Beliefs form in order to minimize our surprise about the world, said neuroscientist Phil Corlett of Yale University in New Haven, Conn., who was not involved in the study. Our expectations override what we actually see, Corlett added. The prevailing thinking holds that people develop delusions http://www.livescience.com/5508-people-unsure-beliefs-close-minded.html\ to predict how events in their lives will occur — just as Pavlov's dog learned to predict that the sound of a bell ringing meant dinnertime was imminent. Humans update their beliefs when what they predict doesn't match what they actually experience, Corlett said. But delusions often appear to override the evidence of the senses. To test this idea, German and Swedish researchers conducted behavioral and neuroimaging experiments on healthy people who harbor delusions. In one experiment, volunteers were given a questionnaire designed to measure delusional beliefs. Questions included: Do you ever feel as if people are reading your mind?; Do you ever feel as if there is a conspiracy against you http://www.livescience.com/11375-top-ten-conspiracy-theories.html ?; Do you ever feel as if you are, or destined to be someone very important?; and Are you often worried that your partner may be unfaithful? The participants then performed a task that tested their visual perception: They were shown a sphere-shaped set of dots rotating in an ambiguous direction, and asked to report which direction it was rotating at various intervals. People who harbored a greater number of delusional beliefs (those who scored higher on the questionnaire) saw the dots appear to change direction more often than the average person. The result confirms findings from previous studies that delusional individuals have less stable perceptions of the world. In a second experiment, the volunteers were given glasses, which they were told would bias their view so that the rotating dots would appear
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Here's a little game/puzzle, the first winner to successfully finish it gets a prize. I dentify the following delusional beliefs with the person professing the belief (the first one as an example) [image: Inline image 1]
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
(-: From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 4:05 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: This article/research is not exactly a surprise, and not even new. There have been similar studies in the past that proved that when it comes to the question of Which comes first, perception or belief?, the answer is pretty much *always* Belief. That is why I was uncomfortable with an exchange here earlier this month, in which people were throwing around the word charlatan to describe someone (I honestly don't remember who at this point), and seemingly expecting me to pile on. I can't do that, even with Maharishi or Fred Lenz - Rama. I don't consider either of them charlatans in the sense that most people use that word, because it describes someone who knowingly deceives others, and doesn't believe the things he is saying. I think both of them believed pretty much every word that they said. I think they believed it so strongly, in fact, that these beliefs caused them to delude themselves into seeing and feeling things that supported those beliefs. Their beliefs *programmed* their own brains into seeing things that weren't there, and that had no relationship to reality as most people perceive it. MJ has a harsher view of MMY, and seems to favor the idea that MMY was indeed a charlatan, telling people things that he didn't believe or that he knew weren't true, just for the money, or for the ego-strokes, or for the attention, or just because. I don't. I think that he spent so much time in trance states that he believed were higher or more real than other people's perceptions that he could pop himself into one of them pretty much any time he wanted, and thus program his senses into seeing things that *agreed* with his beliefs, even if those things weren't really there. The classic example is the one-liner that even TBs laugh at, because (except for a vocal and even more delusional few on this forum who never spent *any* time around Maharishi) they've all seen it, too. How many have had this experience? [Three hands go up in a room full of hundreds of people] See? Almost everyone. IMO he really DID see a room full of waving hands, because he believed that was what should have happened. Therefore, for him, it really *did* happen. But it didn't. Understanding this mechanism of belief driving perception (and NOT vice-versa) is in my experience key to developing a more compassionate and balanced view of the world of holy men and shysters who proliferate on this backwards planet. My bet is that even the worst of them -- like Satya Sai Baba -- *believed* that he was manifesting the vibhuti powder he had so carefully palmed and hidden under a tray before his cheap parlor magic acts. You can actually *see* him doing this in videos on YouTube. But just as his TB followers watch those videos and fail to see the obvious palming, preferring their belief in him as a god man to reality, my bet is that he found a way to delude *himself*, even as he was palming the objects. The important thing for him was the belief that he *was* magical; therefore he was. I suspect that his belief in himself as special and magical was so strong that he even found a way to believe that about himself when he was molesting his followers' young children. Part of the secret of developing compassion for such deluded individuals, again in my experience, is developing a similar compassion for *oneself*. I can do that easily, because I've been there, done that. I've listened to Maharishi talk utter nonsense myself, but was such a TB at the time that I not only believed it, I talked my brain into seeing the nonsense the same way he did. I just got over it. Many here on FFL never have. They have, for example, convinced themselves that the *minor* altered states of consciousness they experienced as a result of TM or the TM-sidhis were *major* shifts of consciousness. And why? Because they were TOLD that they were, and they preferred to *believe* that rather than deal with the possibility that these were just simple brain farts that had no inherent meaning at all, or that they were very common experiences that happen to many people who don't meditate at all (such as witnessing during either sleep or waking). I think it's more sane, and balanced, to approach one's experiences in life with an underlying sense of distrust, rather than trust. SURE, you experienced such-and-such, but 1) did you *really* experience it or did you just program your brain to make it think you had, and 2) does having experienced it mean what you were TOLD it means, or do you just prefer to believe that because it makes you feel more special? I suspect that some here will react badly
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How the deluded see the world....
Yes dear I spent all my evening playing the Barry Wright delusional belief puzzle game, it was intricate, challenging and lot of fun - not sure how you manages to do it blind-folded - is it? Oh well. On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:32 PM, obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ** Ravi, you can take your time with the Pong style Barry Wright puzzle video game. The sound would be hard to hear with the wonderful bass recording going on, at the moment. I have to be quiet right now. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba no_reply@... wrote: Printed a copy and have my black Sharpie in hand. I can almost do this blindfolded, except don't want to mark up the teak by accident. Cause if I do that, then I may have to pull out 600 grit sand paper. To clean up the Barry Wright for fun game/puzzle. If the sanded varnish transfers to the nearby fabric, then another fine mess, the Barry Wright for fun/game puzzle spreads to more chores and clean up. Whew, this is work. Opps, debris on the floor now. This could end up like Dr. Seuss's, The Cat and the Hat! Oh my, and most definitely like the polluted section of Turq-FFL board posts. It's all good if one can sieve his very few non ego written sentences. Takes a fine strainer though, to find them. Ravi, could you design a quick video game like the old, Pong, using the chart provided. Add the sound too, so I can run it in the background, like this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GFTNEbu2FU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GFTNEbu2FU --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Here's a little game/puzzle, the first winner to successfully finish it gets a prize. ​I​ ​dentify the following delusional beliefs with the person professing the belief (the first one as an example) [image: Inline image 1]
