subject:"euthanasia"

COULD GET EATEN BY A MOUNTAIN LION IN THE MOUNTAINS.  HE MIGHT MISTAKE YOU FOR 
PREY.  MY LION JUST VISITS EVERY SO OFTEN.  HE IS ON A DEER TRAIL AND WE TALK 
FOR A COUPLE OF MINUTES AND THEN HE SAUNTERS ACROSS THE ROAD.  HE/SHE IS SO 
CLOSE THAT TO RUN WOULD BE FATAL.  STANDING STILL AND TALKING IS BETTER.


 Bonnie Hogue  wrote: 
> Well, actually, that can lead to a stroke, which can be slow and gruesome ... 
> Me, I've taken up mountain biking... Hope they find me collapsed on a 
> hillside with a view!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 28, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Marcia Baronda  wrote:
> 
> > I have to tell you, that after watching my Mom go through the death 
> > process, I have decided that high cholesterol is lookin pretty good to me!
> > 
> > Sent from my iPad that my most awesome kids surprised me with, Christmas 
> > 2010. 
> > 
> > On Sep 28, 2012, at 9:40 AM,  wrote:
> > 
> >> Sounds like my father!  He also passed at home.  He woke up hot and sweaty 
> >> and said he wanted a bath.  I started to bathe him and got his head done 
> >> when I noticed him listing to one side.  Tried to get him back to bed, but 
> >> had to let him lie on floor rather than drop him.  Did CPR, called 911, 
> >> but he was gone before they got there.  Miss him very much, but glad he 
> >> went that way.
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  Lorrie  wrote: 
> >>> Good for him.  Dying at home is the best way.
> >>> I want to croak at home in my own bed.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On 09-26, Terri Brown wrote:
> >>>>  My father who passed away this past December (may he rest in peace),
> >>>>  passed away at home, with morphine drops and water if he wanted it.  In
> >>>>  his case, it was heart failure, and he didn't want to die in the
> >>>>  hospital.
> >>>> 
> >>>>  He literally said to my sister (pardon the language) "I am sick of this
> >>>>  fucking hospital.  Take me home.  I want to die on my couch."
> >>>> 
> >>>>  So that's what he did.
> >>>> 
> >>>>  Terri
> >>>> 
> >>>>  - Original Message -
> >>>> 
> >>>>  From: [1]Lorrie
> >>>> 
> >>>>  To: [2]felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >>>> 
> >>>>  Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:57 PM
> >>>> 
> >>>>  Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
> >>>> 
> >>>>I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
> >>>>got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
> >>>>very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
> >>>>a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
> >>>>and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
> >>>>in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
> >>>>because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted.
> >>>>This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!
> >>>>On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
> >>>>> My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
> >>>>___
> >>>>Felvtalk mailing list
> >>>>[3]Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >>>>[4]http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemi
> >>>>a.org
> >>>> 
> >>>> References
> >>>> 
> >>>>  1. mailto:felineres...@frontier.com
> >>>>  2. mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >>>>  3. mailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >>>>  4. 
> >>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> >>> 
> >>>> ___
> >>>> Felvtalk mailing list
> >>>> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ___
> >>> Felvtalk mailing list
> >>> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ___
> >> Felvtalk mailing list
> >> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> > 
> > ___
> > Felvtalk mailing list
> > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> > 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-28 Thread Bonnie Hogue

Well, actually, that can lead to a stroke, which can be slow and gruesome ... 
Me, I've taken up mountain biking... Hope they find me collapsed on a hillside 
with a view!

Sent from my iPhone



On Sep 28, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Marcia Baronda  wrote:

> I have to tell you, that after watching my Mom go through the death process, 
> I have decided that high cholesterol is lookin pretty good to me!
> 
> Sent from my iPad that my most awesome kids surprised me with, Christmas 
> 2010. 
> 
> On Sep 28, 2012, at 9:40 AM,  wrote:
> 
>> Sounds like my father!  He also passed at home.  He woke up hot and sweaty 
>> and said he wanted a bath.  I started to bathe him and got his head done 
>> when I noticed him listing to one side.  Tried to get him back to bed, but 
>> had to let him lie on floor rather than drop him.  Did CPR, called 911, but 
>> he was gone before they got there.  Miss him very much, but glad he went 
>> that way.
>> 
>> 
>>  Lorrie  wrote: 
>>> Good for him.  Dying at home is the best way.
>>> I want to croak at home in my own bed.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 09-26, Terri Brown wrote:
>>>>  My father who passed away this past December (may he rest in peace),
>>>>  passed away at home, with morphine drops and water if he wanted it.  In
>>>>  his case, it was heart failure, and he didn't want to die in the
>>>>  hospital.
>>>> 
>>>>  He literally said to my sister (pardon the language) "I am sick of this
>>>>  fucking hospital.  Take me home.  I want to die on my couch."
>>>> 
>>>>  So that's what he did.
>>>> 
>>>>  Terri
>>>> 
>>>>  - Original Message -
>>>> 
>>>>  From: [1]Lorrie
>>>> 
>>>>  To: [2]felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>>> 
>>>>  Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:57 PM
>>>> 
>>>>  Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
>>>> 
>>>>I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
>>>>got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
>>>>very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
>>>>a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
>>>>and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
>>>>in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
>>>>because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted.
>>>>This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!
>>>>On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
>>>>> My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
>>>>___
>>>>Felvtalk mailing list
>>>>[3]Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>>>[4]http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemi
>>>>a.org
>>>> 
>>>> References
>>>> 
>>>>  1. mailto:felineres...@frontier.com
>>>>  2. mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>>>  3. mailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>>>  4. http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> Felvtalk mailing list
>>>> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Felvtalk mailing list
>>> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Felvtalk mailing list
>> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> 
> ___
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> 

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-28 Thread Marcia Baronda

I have to tell you, that after watching my Mom go through the death process, I 
have decided that high cholesterol is lookin pretty good to me!

Sent from my iPad that my most awesome kids surprised me with, Christmas 2010. 

On Sep 28, 2012, at 9:40 AM,  wrote:

> Sounds like my father!  He also passed at home.  He woke up hot and sweaty 
> and said he wanted a bath.  I started to bathe him and got his head done when 
> I noticed him listing to one side.  Tried to get him back to bed, but had to 
> let him lie on floor rather than drop him.  Did CPR, called 911, but he was 
> gone before they got there.  Miss him very much, but glad he went that way.
> 
> 
>  Lorrie  wrote: 
>> Good for him.  Dying at home is the best way.
>> I want to croak at home in my own bed.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 09-26, Terri Brown wrote:
>>>   My father who passed away this past December (may he rest in peace),
>>>   passed away at home, with morphine drops and water if he wanted it.  In
>>>   his case, it was heart failure, and he didn't want to die in the
>>>   hospital.
>>> 
>>>   He literally said to my sister (pardon the language) "I am sick of this
>>>   fucking hospital.  Take me home.  I want to die on my couch."
>>> 
>>>   So that's what he did.
>>> 
>>>   Terri
>>> 
>>>   - Original Message -
>>> 
>>>   From: [1]Lorrie
>>> 
>>>   To: [2]felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>> 
>>>   Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:57 PM
>>> 
>>>   Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
>>> 
>>> I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
>>> got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
>>> very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
>>> a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
>>> and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
>>> in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
>>> because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted.
>>> This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!
>>> On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
>>>> My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
>>> ___
>>> Felvtalk mailing list
>>> [3]Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>> [4]http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemi
>>> a.org
>>> 
>>> References
>>> 
>>>   1. mailto:felineres...@frontier.com
>>>   2. mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>>   3. mailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>>   4. http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>> 
>>> ___
>>> Felvtalk mailing list
>>> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Felvtalk mailing list
>> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> 
> 
> ___
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> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

I have no family to care for me, but do have very close friends.  I have left 
instructions with them about my care at the end and what to do for my cats.  
Will have to re write to include DNR and give fluids.  I have picked out a 
place for my cats and provided in my will for their care and transportation.  


 Lorrie  wrote: 
> > On 09-25, Marcia wrote:
> 
> > My 3 other siblings and I took care of my Mom for 3 weeks while she died
> > at home. Her request(: hospice said no fluid, so she laid there with
> > nothing all that time, struggling to breath, to swallow. Etc. I only cried
> > one time during that 3 weeks, because I had a job to do that required
> > quite a bit of mental strength and clarity. The day I broke down was when
> > Timothy McVay was euthanized. I cried because my mother was suffering and
> > that son of a bitch died effortlessly. People should have that choice and
> > in some countries they do. But not here in the land of the free.
> > 
> That must have been a terrible expeience for you Marcia.  Wasn't she given
> fluids by mouth and morphine?  
> 
> As for McVay - He should have been tortured to death!  Criminals also
> get free surgery and all the other things we don't get.
> 
> 
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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

Sounds like my father!  He also passed at home.  He woke up hot and sweaty and 
said he wanted a bath.  I started to bathe him and got his head done when I 
noticed him listing to one side.  Tried to get him back to bed, but had to let 
him lie on floor rather than drop him.  Did CPR, called 911, but he was gone 
before they got there.  Miss him very much, but glad he went that way.


 Lorrie  wrote: 
> Good for him.  Dying at home is the best way.
> I want to croak at home in my own bed.
>  
> 
> 
> On 09-26, Terri Brown wrote:
> >My father who passed away this past December (may he rest in peace),
> >passed away at home, with morphine drops and water if he wanted it.  In
> >his case, it was heart failure, and he didn't want to die in the
> >hospital.
> > 
> >He literally said to my sister (pardon the language) "I am sick of this
> >fucking hospital.  Take me home.  I want to die on my couch."
> > 
> >So that's what he did.
> > 
> >Terri
> > 
> >- Original Message -
> > 
> >From: [1]Lorrie
> > 
> >    To: [2]felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> > 
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:57 PM
> > 
> >Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
> > 
> >  I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
> >  got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
> >  very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
> >  a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
> >  and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
> >  in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
> >  because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted.
> >  This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!
> >  On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
> >  > My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
> >  ___
> >  Felvtalk mailing list
> >  [3]Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >  [4]http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemi
> >  a.org
> > 
> > References
> > 
> >1. mailto:felineres...@frontier.com
> >2. mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >3. mailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> >4. http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> 
> > ___
> > Felvtalk mailing list
> > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
> 
> 
> ___
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> Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org


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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

THAT is why I don't go to hospitals unless I fall and hit my head on a concrete 
step.  I figured that might require their help.  But I did check for broken 
bones and then got the cats in fed them, cleaned their boxes and then drove 
myself to the ER.  First place, they charge a minimum of $1600.00  and don't do 
that much for you.


 GRAS  wrote: 
> When I moved my mother to a better hospital, where they had the hospice,
> they quickly wheeled her out for another MRI before the move - there was no
> need for it - just make some more  money! Natalie
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org
> [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Lorrie
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:02 PM
> To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
> 
> That probably had a lot to do with it!
> 
> On 09-26, Edna Taylor wrote:
> >They just want to get as much MONEY from the family and their insurance
> >company as they can :(
> > 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread GRAS

When I moved my mother to a better hospital, where they had the hospice,
they quickly wheeled her out for another MRI before the move - there was no
need for it - just make some more  money! Natalie


-Original Message-
From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org
[mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Lorrie
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:02 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

That probably had a lot to do with it!

On 09-26, Edna Taylor wrote:
>They just want to get as much MONEY from the family and their insurance
>company as they can :(
> 

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread Natalie

Maybe that's it; my mother was at a hospital hospice facility!
Natalie

-Original Message-
From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org
[mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Lorrie
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:10 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

On 09-26, Marcia wrote:

> Hospitals aren't good at palliative care. It wasn't that my Mom 
> requested no tubes, it was that Hospice didn't want her to have 
> fluids. They said it would make her uncomfortable. I went toe to toe 
> with that lady. Her Dr said she could have fluids, hospice said no.

WOW, that makes me rethink Hospice. IV fluids can be uncomfortable at the
site, but definitely more comfortable than dehydration.  I wonder if hospice
doesn't go for IVs because most hospice workers are volunteers and it would
take an RN to insert an IV.

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

On 09-26, Marcia wrote:

> Hospitals aren't good at palliative care. It wasn't that my Mom requested
> no tubes, it was that Hospice didn't want her to have fluids. They said it
> would make her uncomfortable. I went toe to toe with that lady. Her Dr
> said she could have fluids, hospice said no.

WOW, that makes me rethink Hospice. IV fluids can be uncomfortable at
the site, but definitely more comfortable than dehydration.  I wonder if
hospice doesn't go for IVs because most hospice workers are volunteers and 
it would take an RN to insert an IV.

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

Good for him.  Dying at home is the best way.
I want to croak at home in my own bed.
 


On 09-26, Terri Brown wrote:
>My father who passed away this past December (may he rest in peace),
>passed away at home, with morphine drops and water if he wanted it.  In
>his case, it was heart failure, and he didn't want to die in the
>hospital.
> 
>He literally said to my sister (pardon the language) "I am sick of this
>fucking hospital.  Take me home.  I want to die on my couch."
> 
>So that's what he did.
> 
>Terri
> 
>- Original Message -
> 
>From: [1]Lorrie
> 
>To: [2]felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> 
>Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:57 PM
> 
>Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
> 
>  I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
>  got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
>  very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
>  a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
>  and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
>  in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
>  because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted.
>  This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!
>  On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
>  > My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
>  ___
>  Felvtalk mailing list
>  [3]Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>  [4]http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemi
>  a.org
> 
> References
> 
>1. mailto:felineres...@frontier.com
>2. mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>3. mailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
>4. http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

That probably had a lot to do with it!

On 09-26, Edna Taylor wrote:
>They just want to get as much MONEY from the family and their insurance
>company as they can :(
> 

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread Marcia

Yes, I read that Drs are trained to save lives, not end them. And I don't mid 
that language a bit(:

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:41 PM, "Terri Brown"  wrote:

> My father who passed away this past December (may he rest in peace), passed 
> away at home, with morphine drops and water if he wanted it.  In his case, it 
> was heart failure, and he didn't want to die in the hospital.
>  
> He literally said to my sister (pardon the language) "I am sick of this 
> fucking hospital.  Take me home.  I want to die on my couch."
>  
> So that's what he did.
>  
> Terri
> - Original Message -
> From: Lorrie
> To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
> 
> I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
> got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
> very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
> a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
> and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
> in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
> because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted. 
> This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!  
> 
> 
> On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
> > My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread Marcia

Hospitals aren't good at palliative care. It wasn't that my Mom requested no 
tubes, it was that Hospice didn't want her to have fluids. They said it would 
make her uncomfortable. I went toe to toe with that lady. Her Dr said she could 
have fluids, hospice said no. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:57 AM, Lorrie  wrote:

> I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
> got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
> very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
> a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
> and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
> in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
> because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted. 
> This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!  
> 
> 
> On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
>> My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
> 
> 
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My father who passed away this past December (may he rest in peace), passed
away at home, with morphine drops and water if he wanted it. In his case, it
was heart failure, and he didn't want to die in the hospital.

He literally said to my sister (pardon the language) "I am sick of this fucking
hospital. Take me home. I want to die on my couch."

So that's what he did.

Terri
- Original Message -
From: Lorrie<mailto:felineres...@frontier.com>
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that. Hospice is usually
very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't. Never go to
a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
and they never give patients enough pain medication. I've worked
in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted.
This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!

On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
> My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread Edna Taylor


They just want to get as much MONEY from the family and their insurance company 
as they can :(
 > Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:57:47 -0400
> From: felineres...@frontier.com
> To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
> 
> I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
> got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
> very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
> a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
> and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
> in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
> because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted. 
> This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!  
> 
> 
> On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
> > My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
> 
> 
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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

I guess your mom requested no tubes, and this is why she only
got morphine. I'm sure glad she had that.  Hospice is usually
very generous with it, whereas hospitals aren't.  Never go to
a hospital to die. They do everything they can to keep you alive
and they never give patients enough pain medication.  I've worked
in hospitals and heard patients crying and moaning with no relief,
because doctors are afraid patients might get addicted. 
This ridiculous when the person is gonna die anyway!!  


On 09-26, Marcia Baronda wrote:
> My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.


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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread Natalie

Fluids are essential to help the body slowly ease into organs shutting down
without sudden dehydration, which is supposed to be very painful!  It must
be individual hospice rules.


-Original Message-
From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org
[mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Marcia Baronda
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 9:24 AM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.

Sent from my iPad that my most awesome kids surprised me with, Christmas
2010. 

On Sep 26, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Lorrie  wrote:

>> On 09-25, Marcia wrote:
> 
>> My 3 other siblings and I took care of my Mom for 3 weeks while she 
>> died at home. Her request(: hospice said no fluid, so she laid there 
>> with nothing all that time, struggling to breath, to swallow. Etc. I 
>> only cried one time during that 3 weeks, because I had a job to do 
>> that required quite a bit of mental strength and clarity. The day I 
>> broke down was when Timothy McVay was euthanized. I cried because my 
>> mother was suffering and that son of a bitch died effortlessly. 
>> People should have that choice and in some countries they do. But not
here in the land of the free.
>> 
> That must have been a terrible expeience for you Marcia.  Wasn't she 
> given fluids by mouth and morphine?
> 
> As for McVay - He should have been tortured to death!  Criminals also 
> get free surgery and all the other things we don't get.
> 
> 
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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread Edna Taylor


No fluids?  WHAT?  they won't let someone die via assistance but it's OKAY to 
let them suffer without fluids?   That is wrong on SO many levels :(
 > From: marciabmar...@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:24:19 -0500
> To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia
> 
> My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.
> 
> Sent from my iPad that my most awesome kids surprised me with, Christmas 
> 2010. 
> 
> On Sep 26, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Lorrie  wrote:
> 
> >> On 09-25, Marcia wrote:
> > 
> >> My 3 other siblings and I took care of my Mom for 3 weeks while she died
> >> at home. Her request(: hospice said no fluid, so she laid there with
> >> nothing all that time, struggling to breath, to swallow. Etc. I only cried
> >> one time during that 3 weeks, because I had a job to do that required
> >> quite a bit of mental strength and clarity. The day I broke down was when
> >> Timothy McVay was euthanized. I cried because my mother was suffering and
> >> that son of a bitch died effortlessly. People should have that choice and
> >> in some countries they do. But not here in the land of the free.
> >> 
> > That must have been a terrible expeience for you Marcia.  Wasn't she given
> > fluids by mouth and morphine?  
> > 
> > As for McVay - He should have been tortured to death!  Criminals also
> > get free surgery and all the other things we don't get.
> > 
> > 
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> 
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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread GRAS

I feel so horrible for anyone who has to watch their loved ones, people or
pets, suffer needlessly without the proper help!
I sat with my mother for 3 weeks, even nights, but had to go to her house to
care for her cats, take a shower and change clothing.  They were going to
send her home with a hospital bed, but thankfully, I was able to persuade
them to allow her to stay because I knew that the end was near.  I would
have been stuck all alone, 24/7, with no help (my sister worked), away from
home.  She died 2 days after they planned on moving her - can't they tell
how near death someone is, at least by fluid intake and going out?  I could
tell.  The morphine and fluids really helped - my mother didn't seem in any
distress the whole time!  She still would have preferred just to be allowed
to be let go immediately. Natalie

-Original Message-
From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org
[mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Marcia Baronda
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 9:24 AM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.

Sent from my iPad that my most awesome kids surprised me with, Christmas
2010. 

On Sep 26, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Lorrie  wrote:

>> On 09-25, Marcia wrote:
> 
>> My 3 other siblings and I took care of my Mom for 3 weeks while she 
>> died at home. Her request(: hospice said no fluid, so she laid there 
>> with nothing all that time, struggling to breath, to swallow. Etc. I 
>> only cried one time during that 3 weeks, because I had a job to do 
>> that required quite a bit of mental strength and clarity. The day I 
>> broke down was when Timothy McVay was euthanized. I cried because my 
>> mother was suffering and that son of a bitch died effortlessly. 
>> People should have that choice and in some countries they do. But not
here in the land of the free.
>> 
> That must have been a terrible expeience for you Marcia.  Wasn't she 
> given fluids by mouth and morphine?
> 
> As for McVay - He should have been tortured to death!  Criminals also 
> get free surgery and all the other things we don't get.
> 
> 
> ___
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> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org

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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

2012-09-26 Thread Marcia Baronda

My mom had morphine...hospice wouldn't allow fluids.

Sent from my iPad that my most awesome kids surprised me with, Christmas 2010. 

On Sep 26, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Lorrie  wrote:

>> On 09-25, Marcia wrote:
> 
>> My 3 other siblings and I took care of my Mom for 3 weeks while she died
>> at home. Her request(: hospice said no fluid, so she laid there with
>> nothing all that time, struggling to breath, to swallow. Etc. I only cried
>> one time during that 3 weeks, because I had a job to do that required
>> quite a bit of mental strength and clarity. The day I broke down was when
>> Timothy McVay was euthanized. I cried because my mother was suffering and
>> that son of a bitch died effortlessly. People should have that choice and
>> in some countries they do. But not here in the land of the free.
>> 
> That must have been a terrible expeience for you Marcia.  Wasn't she given
> fluids by mouth and morphine?  
> 
> As for McVay - He should have been tortured to death!  Criminals also
> get free surgery and all the other things we don't get.
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Felvtalk] Euthanasia

> On 09-25, Marcia wrote:

> My 3 other siblings and I took care of my Mom for 3 weeks while she died
> at home. Her request(: hospice said no fluid, so she laid there with
> nothing all that time, struggling to breath, to swallow. Etc. I only cried
> one time during that 3 weeks, because I had a job to do that required
> quite a bit of mental strength and clarity. The day I broke down was when
> Timothy McVay was euthanized. I cried because my mother was suffering and
> that son of a bitch died effortlessly. People should have that choice and
> in some countries they do. But not here in the land of the free.
> 
That must have been a terrible expeience for you Marcia.  Wasn't she given
fluids by mouth and morphine?  

As for McVay - He should have been tortured to death!  Criminals also
get free surgery and all the other things we don't get.


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[Felvtalk] URGENT! 2 Adults and 3 kittens in danger of euthanasia

2009-08-24 Thread Doggone Fit


Hello Everyone!

Fellow FELV+ owner and advocate hoping to get some help for some 
positive adults and kittens in danger of being put to sleep.


I heard about this group of kitties from The Cat Shack, a non-profit 
rescue group out of Trexlertown, Pennsylvania, see a bit on their 
organization here: http://www.adoptapet.com/adoption_rescue/74581.html
I have enclosed photos of the crew, and here is the description provided 
to me:
"We have 2 young adult females, very friendly. They were both nursing 3 
little kittens, who are also friendly and FeLV+. The babies are 8 weeks 
old.
Please keep them in mind- we have been trying to postpone euthanizing 
them until we can secure some space for them but its a difficult situation!
Here are some pics taken at the vet office- they look nervous because 
they had just arrived. They are actually quite friendly and lived in a 
home with a pitbull so are dog friendly."
This group is amazing. We adopted an FELV+ kitten from them a while back 
and they were great with communication and helped coordinate transport 
for her to come all the way to Mass. I too am willing to help coordinate 
transport for them if anyone is interested. They seem super sweet and I 
would take them all had we not just adopted two negatives after years of 
rescuing felv+ kitties. Can anyone possibly do a foster situation? Of 
course a permanent home would be great, but I just want to get them safe.

Thank you for your time.
*_
Heidi Frank
Doggone Fit™
*www.doggonefit.com 


MaryChristine wrote:

actually, almost NO ONE ever saw angel wings: people bringing cats there
were met off-property. i know many folks who brought cats there, and only
know of one person who was actually allowed to see the main property (of two
or three) where the cats were.

and there's still questions about whether tiger ranch was anything other
than she claimed it to be: a last resort. lots of politics involved in
THAT one.

i think that most people who would pay that sum of money are doing so to
ensure the cat's comfort--and i doubt that normal folk would even consider
that a FeLV might ever find a home.

MC

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:06 PM, Susan Hoffman wrote:

  

As I recall, Angel Wings and Tiger Ranch looked pretty spiffy online too.
Gotta visit the place to really know for sure.



- Original Message 
From: gary 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 5:04:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Urgent! FeLV cat -New Jersey- I need to find him a
Sanctuary

Never heard of them, but the place sure looks spiffy.  And the price they
get to take a cat should more than cover its care and the upkeep on the
property.  Now if I could get a few donations like that.
Heck, if I got any donations  Ah, I would probably just spend it
foolishly on stuff like cat food, litter and vet bills anyway.

Gary

-Original Message-
From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org
[mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of MaryChristine
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 1:03 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Urgent! FeLV cat -New Jersey- I need to find him a
Sanctuary

http://www.loveandhopeforanimals.org/

has anyone ever heard of these folks before?

i find it really scary how many sanctuaries keep appearing, with no history
in the FIV/FeLV community.

MC



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Re: [Felvtalk] NEW ORLEANS, LA - INDIGO - FeLV+ Kitten in Danger of Euthanasia

2009-04-29 Thread MaryChristine

i'm thinking--hoping--she means BYlaw of the rescue group i've heard
that some shelters have very specific regulations that rescues working with
them have to abide by. ::: snark

in your spare time, you could contact them and find out, huh?  fleaing

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Kelley Saveika  wrote:

> We have no room but would be happy to help in writing letters, etc, to
> change this *really* bad law.
>
>
-- 
Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference

MaryChristine
Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org)
Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team)
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Re: [Felvtalk] NEW ORLEANS, LA - INDIGO - FeLV+ Kitten in Danger of Euthanasia

2009-04-28 Thread Kelley Saveika

We have no room but would be happy to help in writing letters, etc, to
change this *really* bad law.

You could try painting her black and white and parading her by the Texas
SS.:)

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:41 PM, MaryChristine wrote:

> hey, groups, i know nothing more than what's in the post, but if only one
> of
> the kittens tested positive, i'd be inclined to think that she might retest
> negative in a couple of months--so if anyone could hold her till then (and
> NOT fall in love,) that might be an option.
>
> PLEASE CONTACT LILAH AT 504-813-8848 or anc...@msn.com if you can help, or
> to see photos!
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS POST!! PLEASE DO NOT HIT REPLY TO RESPOND. I AM
> NOT THE CONTACT; ONLY THE MESSENGER. CONTACT INFORMATION IS LISTED BELOW!
>
> URGENT!!! Please help! 1 Feline leukemia kitten at risk of euthanasia. 5
> kittens rescued and fostered from the Jefferson Parish SPCA. All of the
> kittens are fully vaccinated, spayed and tested. One of the kittens (named
> Indigo) tested positive for feline leukemia. By law, the animal rescue
> group
> working in conjunction with the shelter is unable to adopted any animal out
> that tests positive for feline leukemia through their program. This kitten
> will be euthanized if she is not adopted privately through the foster home.
> Please open your home to this extremely sweet, otherwise healthy baby
> kitten. She is a 13wk, smoke gray tabby (DSH). She is a love bug, who
> adores
> being held and will sleep curled up in your lap.
>
> Please contact Lilah @ 504-813-8848 or anc...@msn.com 
> for
> further information and/or photos of Indigo
>
>
>  __._,_.___
>
>
> --
> Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
> Maybe That'll Make The Difference
>
> MaryChristine
> Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org
> )
> Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team)
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-- 
Rescuties - Saving the world, one cat at a time.

http://www.rescuties.org

Vist the Rescuties stores and save a kitty life!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=rescuties-20

http://www.zazzle.com/rescuties*

Buy or renew magazines and help our kitties!
http://www.magfundraising.com/rescuties

Help us spay some kitties!

http://rescuties.chipin.com/30-spays-in-30-days

"Rather than helping, it's easier to point fingers and say "take  them first
as long as you leave me alone".
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[Felvtalk] NEW ORLEANS, LA - INDIGO - FeLV+ Kitten in Danger of Euthanasia

2009-04-28 Thread MaryChristine

hey, groups, i know nothing more than what's in the post, but if only one of
the kittens tested positive, i'd be inclined to think that she might retest
negative in a couple of months--so if anyone could hold her till then (and
NOT fall in love,) that might be an option.

PLEASE CONTACT LILAH AT 504-813-8848 or anc...@msn.com if you can help, or
to see photos!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS POST!! PLEASE DO NOT HIT REPLY TO RESPOND. I AM
NOT THE CONTACT; ONLY THE MESSENGER. CONTACT INFORMATION IS LISTED BELOW!

URGENT!!! Please help! 1 Feline leukemia kitten at risk of euthanasia. 5
kittens rescued and fostered from the Jefferson Parish SPCA. All of the
kittens are fully vaccinated, spayed and tested. One of the kittens (named
Indigo) tested positive for feline leukemia. By law, the animal rescue group
working in conjunction with the shelter is unable to adopted any animal out
that tests positive for feline leukemia through their program. This kitten
will be euthanized if she is not adopted privately through the foster home.
Please open your home to this extremely sweet, otherwise healthy baby
kitten. She is a 13wk, smoke gray tabby (DSH). She is a love bug, who adores
being held and will sleep curled up in your lap.

Please contact Lilah @ 504-813-8848 or anc...@msn.com  for
further information and/or photos of Indigo


 __._,_.___


-- 
Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference

MaryChristine
Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org)
Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team)
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Re: euthanasia

2007-02-04 Thread elizabeth trent


Michelle,
Please don't cut us off because you are offended by a response.  In my
heart, I truly believe that response wasn't meant to hurt you.  We all need
friends who are direct and who tell us exactly what they think - even if it
is painful - and not just to tell us what they think we want to hear.  You
are going through so much pain right now - and taking on Lucy's pain as your
own too.  You don't need to go through this alone.

I think you are doing the right thing by getting input from a lot of
different sources - the letter from your healer friend really touched my
heart.  We all have very different opinions on a number of things - but we
all agree on this: we care very much.  Please allow us the opportunity to be
there for you.

My heart is with you,
elizabeth


On 2/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 I do not often get offended by this list, and I know I am in a bad state
to begin with. But I really take offense at this thing people always say,
which at least one of you has said to me in my questioning what to do about
euthanasia, that I need to ask if I am keeping her here for me or for her.
We are talking about ending a life. Believe me, if I could actually tell
that it would be the best thing for her, I would do it. As painful as it
will be to be without her, it is also painful to watch her deteriorate. What
I am trying to figure out is what is best for her, not what is best for me.
Taking someone's life should not be done lightly, and if someone seems to be
getting some enjoyment out of life, I think it is a totally fair question to
ask if it is right to take their life at this time or if it is better to
wait, for their own sake. For Lucy's sake. So I appreciate any insights
about that, but I am going to stop asking for opinions here, because I don't
think that just because I have different standards about euthanasia it means
I am doing it or not doing it "for me" and being selfish. I could say the
same thing, if I wanted, about people who euthanize as soon as they know
something is terminal-- most people can not deal with hospice care or
watching the decline of someone they love, so maybe they just euthanize "for
themselves."

Enough.  I will deal with this on my own if that is the kind of answer I
am going to get.

I will stay offline now until this is over.

Michelle

euthanasia

2007-02-04 Thread Lernermichelle

I do not often get offended by this list, and I know I am in a bad state to  
begin with. But I really take offense at this thing people always say, which 
at  least one of you has said to me in my questioning what to do about 
euthanasia,  that I need to ask if I am keeping her here for me or for her. We 
are 
talking  about ending a life. Believe me, if I could actually tell that it 
would 
be the  best thing for her, I would do it. As painful as it will be to be 
without her,  it is also painful to watch her deteriorate. What I am trying to 
figure out is  what is best for her, not what is best for me.  Taking someone's 
life  should not be done lightly, and if someone seems to be getting some 
enjoyment  out of life, I think it is a totally fair question to ask if it is 
right 
to take  their life at this time or if it is better to wait, for their own 
sake. For  Lucy's sake. So I appreciate any insights about that, but I am going 
to stop  asking for opinions here, because I don't think that just because I 
have  different standards about euthanasia it means I am doing it or not doing 
it "for  me" and being selfish. I could say the same thing, if I wanted, about 
people who  euthanize as soon as they know something is terminal-- most 
people can not deal  with hospice care or watching the decline of someone they 
love, so maybe they  just euthanize "for themselves."  
 
Enough.  I will deal with this on my own if that is the kind of answer  I am 
going to get.
 
I will stay offline now until this is over.
 
Michelle

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-23 Thread TenHouseCats

oh, nina--

i'm so sorry. this is the first time i've had the computer up in more
than a day--glorious thunderstorms all day yesterday, so i believe
that grace is at the bridge as i write this.

all GLOW to her to find her way safely, and to heal your heart...

i really liked the illusion of a great heart being able to break time
and time again, and still have room to love again. someone said once
that the pain we feel when they leave is their little claws digging
their permanent, forever place in our hearts.

i've done things every way there is--holding on too long for ME,
rather than for them (i don't do that anymore, tho it's "easier" in
ways to do so), having the vet come to the house (my preferred way
when the cat needs my help to cross), rushing a kitty to the emergency
vet at 4 in the morning when they are clearly suffering, holding their
paw as they consciously let go, holding them in my arms, against my
heart, even after their spirits are long gone but they haven't quite
been able to leave their bodies behind; i've begged them to let go and
go home, i've begged the universe to let them stay with me, i've
wanted to scream to the vet, "no! what if i'm wrong, what if it's not
really time?," i've gone to get the valium to help them relax only to
return to find they'd gone on without me; i've held them in my arms
when that's what they seemed to want, and let them be alone when
that's what they wanted--tho that is the HARDEST for me, to respect
their need to transition in their own space; i've done mouth-to-snout
resuscitation

i have learned to listen to them, knowing that they are much wiser
about the cycles of life than i will ever be. i make sure they know
how much i love them, that i will ALWAYS love them, i thank them for
sharing their lives with me, and i tell them they are free to go when
it is time. i ask them to tell me if they need my help; i talk to them
about their kittenhoods, and how much fun we've had together, and how,
at the bridge, they will have young healthy bodies again and can do
all the things the current body can't do any longer... . i DO believe
that euthanasia is often the final gift that we can give them in
return for all they have given us--the most profound thing i've ever
been told is that it's better to send them home one day too soon than
10 minutes too late. sometimes the act of leaving the body behind is
soft and quiet and gentle, sometimes it is not--when it is clear that
their time here is at an end, i cannot let them suffer.

i just have nothing more to say; i ache for you, and rejoice for
grace's freedom from pain.

MC

--
MaryChristine

AIM / YAHOO: TenHouseCats
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ: 289856892

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread catatonya

 
I may be wrong about the weight being the issue about finding a vein,
but if Grace is anemic, that too can cause a problem with it.

tonya
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Nina, I am so sorry.  I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller
> or 
> harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should
> be a concern.  
> You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since
> she does 
> not seem to be in active pain.  I do think the annoyed look she has
> probably 
> has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get
> like 
> that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he
> was dying). 
> I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of
> valium if it 
> made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat.  At
> least 
> until things got worse.  And you could try to wait for the vet she
> likes then, at 
> least.  Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we
> are all 
> different with death.  And I have not always thought that I did the
> right 
> thing, either.
> Michelle
>

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread catatonya


Nina,

I'm so sorry.  I can say that as animals lose weight it does make it
more difficult to find a vein.  My vet can find a vein in a potato, but
it sounds like your favorite vet is not available.  Make sure that
whoever you decide on sedates her first.  Also, do NOT let them take
her away from you to find a vein.  I learned that the hard way.  God
bless you both, and I hope things go peacefully for you both.  I'm
thinking about you.  I hope support from this list helps a bit.  I'm
so, so sorry.

tonya
--- Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My Beloved Group,
> First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in
> the 
> group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the last 
> couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the 
> posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last
> 
> efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally resigned 
> myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'.  Those
> of 
> you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and
> healthy, 
> and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with 
> you.  I don't know what I would have done without the love and
> support 
> of this group.  You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur
> angels.
> 
> Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.  Among 
> other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. 
> I'm 
> trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I know you
> understand.  
> She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and 
> bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be 
> with her".   During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't
> want 
> to be sung to, or touched.  It's so hard on me to watch her pull
> away.  
> At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of 
> Valium and gave it to her in water.  She was so relaxed she even did
> a 
> stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She did something
> that 
> startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing
> in 
> miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the 
> couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get 
> treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When
> 
> she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the 
> couch.  I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's
> going 
> to take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have
> 
> knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat
> it, 
> but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4
> pieces 
> of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.
> 
> I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my 
> attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my
> 
> heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her
> to 
> go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I don't want
> her 
> to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be over. 
> Yesterday, 
> when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr.
> 
> Ortega would be willing to help her cross.  Grace has always liked
> Dr. 
> Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.  Well, my
> Internist 
> isn't going to be in the office until Friday.  It doesn't seem
> possible 
> that Grace will still be here by then.  My stance has always been,
> that 
> when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery 
> after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. 
> Even 
> though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes 
> shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take
> 
> it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like 
> this.  I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in
> her 
> eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself 
> either.  I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not
> quite 
> angry, more like annoyed to still be here.
> 
> Just to let you know...  Over the past week or so, I think I may have
> 
> mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime
> with 
> the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer.  While it didn't save 
> Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious 
> moments, back to me.  It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and
> love 
> shining out of her eyes again.
> 
> Anyway, here's my question:  Can anyone tell me how difficult it is
> to 
> put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition?  Of course, I don't
> 
> want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. 
> What 
> if they can't find a vein, because they're so small?  I just want to 
> know what to expect.  I'm thinking of calling a house call vet to see
> if 
> he can come today, but I don't want t

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread gblane

I have to say, I'm with you on that - Euthanizing my horse Whatsie  was the 
hardest thing I ever did and gave me much of my present perspective on 
euthanasia.


Gloria



--

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:15:40 EDT

I am not sure it is about bravery.  It does take bravery to be with someone
as they die a natural death.  But I think that the hardest thing I ever 
did in

my life was to euthanize my horse Shire.  If I had felt it would be ok, or
fair, to him, it would have been easier for me, i think, to just stay 
with him
while he went on his own.  But because of the particular problem he had, 
it was

going to be an extremely traumatic and painful thing for him.  But in that
case euthanasia took more bravery (also the bravery of knowing I would always
hate myself for doing the euthanasia, and I always have).  It really just 
comes

down to trying as hard as possible to be honest with yourself about what the
animal can bear, and trying not to confuse it with what you can bear.  I 
am not

sure it is possible to do that, to be able to separate the things so purely,
but that is what I try to do, and I think that allows you to make the best
decision.

I am so sorry.

Michelle

In a message dated 9/22/2005 10:31:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Michelle,
Thank you so much for answering my post.  When I was struggling with
gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you.
I wanted your opinion about this.  I wish I were braver.  Funny, isn't
it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to
this...  I just feel helpless and humble.
N

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Sue Feldbusch

I personally think Euthanasia of pets is wrong.  We shouldn't have the power 
to take an innocent life.  Only God has that power.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:15:40 EDT

I am not sure it is about bravery.  It does take bravery to be with someone
as they die a natural death.  But I think that the hardest thing I ever did 
in

my life was to euthanize my horse Shire.  If I had felt it would be ok, or
fair, to him, it would have been easier for me, i think, to just stay with 
him
while he went on his own.  But because of the particular problem he had, it 
was

going to be an extremely traumatic and painful thing for him.  But in that
case euthanasia took more bravery (also the bravery of knowing I would 
always
hate myself for doing the euthanasia, and I always have).  It really just 
comes
down to trying as hard as possible to be honest with yourself about what 
the
animal can bear, and trying not to confuse it with what you can bear.  I am 
not
sure it is possible to do that, to be able to separate the things so 
purely,

but that is what I try to do, and I think that allows you to make the best
decision.

I am so sorry.

Michelle

In a message dated 9/22/2005 10:31:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Michelle,
Thank you so much for answering my post.  When I was struggling with
gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you.
I wanted your opinion about this.  I wish I were braver.  Funny, isn't
it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to
this...  I just feel helpless and humble.
N

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread maimaipg

There are Bach essences and other aids for the person too.  Check with your
homeopath/health food store etc  for recommendations for you and your
grieving process.  They help.  Honest.  They do not make the hurt go away.
Don't think that.  They do make it easier to deal with.  If there is no pain
on losing a loved one, you did not truly love.
- Original Message - 
From: "Gloria Lane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace


> Nina, my heart goes out to you, I am so sorry for your pain.  These
> are such difficult, important, and soul-searching questions.  I can
> only answer of course from my own experience, but want to mention
> that homeopathy also has ways of supporting the one who is about to
> pass on, so you might talk to your homeopath.
>
> I agree, I have always interpreted with animals and people, when they
> won't take the food or liquid out of the syringe or dropper, it's
> time for them to move to a different level.  I usually allow my loved
> ones to move at their own speed, unless there seems to be pain or
> other difficulty.
>
> I really don't know how difficult it is to euthanize an emaciated
> animal - but they will pass on gently on their own. And, it's not
> hard to ask your vet about a simple sedative for Grace if you feel
> that's appropriate, and your dear Grace could remain at home.  Also,
> again, a good contact might be the homeopath, to give you gentle
> suggestions on how to help Grace with making the transition.
>
> Let us know, we all are with you as you help her with this passage.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Gloria
>
>
> On Sep 22, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Nina wrote:
>
> > My Beloved Group,
> > First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in
> > the group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the
> > last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read
> > the posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and
> > my last efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally
> > resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed
> > vigil'.  Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your
> > babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have
> > lost the battle; my love is with you.  I don't know what I would
> > have done without the love and support of this group.  You have
> > been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.
> >
> > Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.
> > Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to
> > swallow.  I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I
> > know you understand.  She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time
> > now and she's skin and bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I
> > did my best to just "be with her".   During the afternoon she made
> > it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched.  It's so
> > hard on me to watch her pull away.  At one point, she seemed a bit
> > agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in
> > water.  She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on
> > the patio in the sun.  She did something that startled me, and got
> > my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing in miracles).  I
> > was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch.  Well,
> > we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get treats she'd
> > come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When she saw me
> > giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch.  I
> > started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to
> > take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have
> > knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat
> > it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4
> > pieces of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.
> >
> > I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my
> > attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking
> > my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for
> > her to go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I
> > don't want her to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be
> > over.  Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's
> > office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross.
> > Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega,

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Gloria Lane

Nina, my heart goes out to you, I am so sorry for your pain.  These  
are such difficult, important, and soul-searching questions.  I can  
only answer of course from my own experience, but want to mention  
that homeopathy also has ways of supporting the one who is about to  
pass on, so you might talk to your homeopath.


I agree, I have always interpreted with animals and people, when they  
won't take the food or liquid out of the syringe or dropper, it's  
time for them to move to a different level.  I usually allow my loved  
ones to move at their own speed, unless there seems to be pain or  
other difficulty.


I really don't know how difficult it is to euthanize an emaciated  
animal - but they will pass on gently on their own. And, it's not  
hard to ask your vet about a simple sedative for Grace if you feel  
that's appropriate, and your dear Grace could remain at home.  Also,  
again, a good contact might be the homeopath, to give you gentle  
suggestions on how to help Grace with making the transition.


Let us know, we all are with you as you help her with this passage.

Blessings,

Gloria


On Sep 22, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Nina wrote:


My Beloved Group,
First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in  
the group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the  
last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read  
the posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and  
my last efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally  
resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed  
vigil'.  Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your  
babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have  
lost the battle; my love is with you.  I don't know what I would  
have done without the love and support of this group.  You have  
been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.


Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.   
Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to  
swallow.  I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I  
know you understand.  She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time  
now and she's skin and bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I  
did my best to just "be with her".   During the afternoon she made  
it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched.  It's so  
hard on me to watch her pull away.  At one point, she seemed a bit  
agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in  
water.  She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on  
the patio in the sun.  She did something that startled me, and got  
my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing in miracles).  I  
was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch.  Well,  
we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get treats she'd  
come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When she saw me  
giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch.  I  
started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to  
take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have  
knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat  
it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4  
pieces of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.


I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my  
attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking  
my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for  
her to go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I  
don't want her to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be  
over.  Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's  
office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross.   
Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be  
calmest with her.  Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the  
office until Friday.  It doesn't seem possible that Grace will  
still be here by then.  My stance has always been, that when I know  
it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after  
treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross.  Even  
though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes  
shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature  
take it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing  
her like this.  I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I  
look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem  
like herself either.  I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like  
she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here.


Just to let you know...  Over the past week or so, I think I may  
have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic  
regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer.  While  
it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for  
brief glorious moments, back to me.  It was such

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Kerry Roach

Hi Nina,
I am so sorry to hear that Grace isn't responding...It is such a difficult decision to make, but like we all know...you will know the time and the signs...maybe it is a sign that your regular vet isn't here until Fri...for you to keep giving her the treats...and maybe that will give her some strength to eat something...I don't know if this will help, but if you have some dex give her some..it can relieve any pain/inflammation if she is having any...
Our thoughts and prayers are with you and Grace.
Kerry and Bandy[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Send Felvtalk mailing list submissions toFelvtalk@felineleukemia.orgTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visithttp://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.orgor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to[EMAIL PROTECTED]You can reach the person managing the list at[EMAIL PROTECTED]When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of Felvtalk digest..."Today's Topics:1. Sulphur ([EMAIL PROTECTED])2. Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace (Rachel)3. Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace (Terri Brown)--Message: 1Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:29:29 EDTFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:
SulphurTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"Yes please Hideyo - thanksJust out of interest - did you get the full thyroid test done or the basic test?Michelle, Minstrel, Buddy & Angel Bramble-- next part --An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: /pipermail/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org/attachments/20050922/d34834cc/attachment.htm--Message: 2Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:34:26 -0700 (PDT)From: Rachel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my GraceTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"I made that decision with my Butch.It is very hard, but I firmly believe that when they have given up there is no need for
anything to be dragged out. I almost wish people could have the option of euthanasia because I know some would take it.Butch was having trouble breathing and had lost weight from not eating. The vet I took him to was very nice and good with both of us.They didn't seem to have any problems and everything was over very quickly and peacefully.If this is the decision you make, it will be the right one for both of you, and you certainly have the thoughts & support from everyone here.RachelNina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:My Beloved Group,First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed
vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be with her". During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi
roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though.I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. Sh

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread maimaipg

A heart that is full of love can break in infinite number of times.  A hard
heart might break once.
- Original Message - 
From: "Nina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace


> Thanks Cherie,
> I just called my Internist's office and they will be able to squeeze me
> in tomorrow at 9:30.  I know you all know how this feels.  The final
> moment, the realization that there's nothing left to do, nothing left to
> try.  How can a heart break over and over again?
> N
>
> Cherie A Gabbert wrote:
>
> > Nina,
> > That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an
> > appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time.
> > Cherie
> >
> > */Barb Moermond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> >
> > Nina,
> > I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard.
> > If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request
> > that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja
> > - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just
> > a shot.
> >
> > */Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> >
> > Michelle,
> > Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling
> > with
> > gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking
> > of you.
> > I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny,
> > isn't
> > it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it
> > comes to
> > this... I just feel helpless and humble.
> > N
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins
> > smaller
> > > or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think
> > that
> > > should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not
> > think I
> > > would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active
> > pain. I do
> > > think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with
> > discomfort of
> > > some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward
> > the end
> > > (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying).
I
> > > personally would probably just keep giving her little bits
> > of valium
> > > if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a
> > dog treat.
> > > At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait
> > for the
> > > vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and
> > how I do
> > > things. I know that we are all different with death. And I
> > have not
> > > always thought that I did the right thing, either.
> > > Michelle
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito
> >
> > "My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress.
> > Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me
smile."
> > - Anonymous
> >
>
  
> > Yahoo! for Good
> > Click here to donate <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/> to
> > the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> >
> >
> >
> > /Have a purrfect day/
> > /Cherie/
> > //
>
>
>
>

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread maimaipg

My vet has been able to do it with no problem at all.  It takes a skilled
and loving, caring soul to do that.  She may be upset that you are looking
at the situation as a death bed vigil instead of a time to remember,
together and in body, all the good times and love you have shared.  She may
be pulling away because of this and maybe she thinks it will make it easier
for you.  They will often stay long past the time they want to leave because
of the pain they know it will cause their person.  Mai Mai and Ebony both
stayed for me.  It is not that you want her to leave--it is that you want
her to be free to leave or stay as she knows best.  It may be that she needs
to leave this earth at home instead of at the vet's.  I can not answer but
pose the questions for you to consider.

Bless you and bless her.  Let both of your angels guide you.  They will if
you ask.
- Original Message - 
From: "Nina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace


> My Beloved Group,
> First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the
> group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the last
> couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the
> posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last
> efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally resigned
> myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'.  Those of
> you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy,
> and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with
> you.  I don't know what I would have done without the love and support
> of this group.  You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.
>
> Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.  Among
> other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow.  I'm
> trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I know you understand.
> She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and
> bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be
> with her".   During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want
> to be sung to, or touched.  It's so hard on me to watch her pull away.
> At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of
> Valium and gave it to her in water.  She was so relaxed she even did a
> stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She did something that
> startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing in
> miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the
> couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get
> treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When
> she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the
> couch.  I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going
> to take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have
> knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat it,
> but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces
> of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.
>
> I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my
> attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my
> heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to
> go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I don't want her
> to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be over.  Yesterday,
> when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr.
> Ortega would be willing to help her cross.  Grace has always liked Dr.
> Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.  Well, my Internist
> isn't going to be in the office until Friday.  It doesn't seem possible
> that Grace will still be here by then.  My stance has always been, that
> when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery
> after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross.  Even
> though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes
> shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take
> it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like
> this.  I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her
> eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself
> either.  I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite
> angry, more like annoyed to still be here.
>
> Just to let you know...  Over the past week or so, I think

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Steph E Caldwell


Nina,

I can't help you decide, but my thoughts are with you. I don't 
personally believe in euthanasia, but I came very close with TeeCee this 
spring. It's tough...


With Care,
Steph

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Terri Brown





I know I am posting this late.
 
Darling Nina,  the decision to euthanize is a personal one, but I will 
tell you my thoughts.
 
If Grace told you through the AC that she was okay with euthanasia, and if 
you know that she is not going to get better, and she has asked to leave, then I 
would euthanize.
 
I have hated each decision we have had to make regarding euthanasia.  
If the 6 cats I've lost since 1996, all but 2 of them were euthanized because 
that is what they wanted.  I wanted them to stay with me forever, but I saw 
the suffering that they were going through, and I started to feel selfish about 
keeping them here.
 
Each time I have had to do this, I have been with my furkid.  Each 
passing was smooth, peaceful, and pain free.  Each time is just as 
emotionally painful for me and Dan as the time before, but we have never 
regretted our decision.  When they're that sick, I am of the opinion that 
euthanasia is the last, final loving act that we can give them.
 
Only you can be the one to come to terms with what you are going to 
do.  Listen to Grace.  She will let you know when (and if) she is 
ready.
 
Great big hugs to you.
 
=^..^= Terri, Siggie the Tomato Vampire, Guinevere, Sammi, Travis, and 5 
furangels: RuthieGirl, Samantha, Arielle, Gareth, Alec & Salome' 
=^..^=
 
Furkid Photos! http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7sgqa/My 
FeLV Site: http://pages.ivillage.com/ruthiegirl1/MyFeLVinformationSite/My 
Personal Page: http://www.geocities.com/ruthiegirl1/terrispage.html?1083970447350

  - Original Message - 
  From: Nina 
  
  To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:18 
  AM
  Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my 
  Grace
  My Beloved Group,First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been 
  able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks.  I 
  love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able 
  bring myself to read the posts.  I'm physically and emotionally 
  exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health.  
  Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 
  'death bed vigil'.  Those of you that know me, know that I pray all 
  your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost 
  the battle; my love is with you.  I don't know what I would have done 
  without the love and support of this group.  You have been a Godsend 
  to me and my sweet fur angels.Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she 
  does not want to stay.  Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her 
  and she refused to swallow.  I'm trying my best to make peace with 
  her decision.  I know you understand.  She hasn't eaten on her 
  own for a long time now and she's skin and bones.  She spent a nice 
  peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be with her".   During 
  the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or 
  touched.  It's so hard on me to watch her pull away.  At one 
  point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and 
  gave it to her in water.  She was so relaxed she even did a 
  stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She did something 
  that startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop 
  believing in miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was 
  laying on the couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I.  
  Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and 
  expect one too.  When she saw me giving the dogs treats this 
  afternoon, she jumped off the couch.  I started to cry, because I 
  thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat.  I put one in 
  front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh.  
  It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, 
  but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble!  My hopes 
  were short lived though.I've been up with her most of the night.  
  She still doesn't want my attention.  She doesn't even want me to 
  look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be 
  making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention.  
  It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do.  I want her 
  suffering to be over.  Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called 
  my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her 
  cross.  Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be 
  calmest with her.  Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office 
  until Friday.  It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here 
  by then.  My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, 
  when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, 
  then it's time to help them cross.  Even though Grace is peaceful,

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Rachel

I made that decision with my Butch.
It is very hard, but I firmly believe that when they have given up there is no need for anything to be dragged out. I almost wish people could have the option of euthanasia because I know some would take it.
Butch was having trouble breathing and had lost weight from not eating. The vet I took him to was very nice and good with both of us.
They didn't seem to have any problems and everything was over very quickly and peacefully.
If this is the decision you make, it will be the right one for both of you, and you certainly have the thoughts & support from everyone here.
RachelNina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My Beloved Group,First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow.
I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be with her". During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I
thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though.I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will
still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here.Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments,
back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again.Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because they're so small? I just want to know what to expect. I'm thinking of calling a house call vet

Euthanasia

2005-09-22 Thread Lomaxturtle




Nina
 
so sorry to hear of this sad time. Having Euthanased my dear Tidge and 
Bramble I can say that they were different experiences. I personally wouldn't 
sedate another who was weak before the shot as Tidge's veins collapsed due to 
the sedative so they had to give her the shot through her side which was not 
pleasant and took a long time - although the sedative did make her sleep - 
Bramble reacted strongly to the sedative vomiting but passed quickly and 
peacefully after the shot. Given the choices again - they would both have had 
the shot only. It is awful to have to do but there comes a time when it is cruel 
not to euthanase - Grace sounds like she is ready to accept help. Hope it all 
goes as well as it possibly can.
 
Michelle, Minstrel, Buddy & Angel Bramble

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Lernermichelle




I am not sure it is about bravery.  It does take bravery to be with someone as they die a natural death.  But I think that the hardest thing I ever did in my life was to euthanize my horse Shire.  If I had felt it would be ok, or fair, to him, it would have been easier for me, i think, to just stay with him while he went on his own.  But because of the particular problem he had, it was going to be an extremely traumatic and painful thing for him.  But in that case euthanasia took more bravery (also the bravery of knowing I would always hate myself for doing the euthanasia, and I always have).  It really just comes down to trying as hard as possible to be honest with yourself about what the animal can bear, and trying not to confuse it with what you can bear.  I am not sure it is possible to do that, to be able to separate the things so purely, but that is what I try to do, and I think that allows you to make the best decision.
 
I am so sorry.
 
Michelle
 
In a message dated 9/22/2005 10:31:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Michelle,Thank you so much for answering my post.  When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you.  I wanted your opinion about this.  I wish I were braver.  Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this...  I just feel helpless and humble.N

RE: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread MacKenzie, Kerry N.

Title: Message

Nina, the valium--or tranx anyway--Michelle
recommends sounds a good idea. My vet gave Flavia and Snowball a sedative, to
relax the little souls. I didn't know it was an option until then. I wish I'd
known about it for Levi. hugs, kerry

-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, September
22, 2005 12:03 PMTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgSubject:
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, I am sorry. This is so awful for you and her to have to go
through this. If you do euthanize at some point, maybe you can give her some
oral valium first, the way you did earlier, so that she is more relaxed for the
process?
While she does sound uncomfortable, she does not sound like she is in any
kind of excruciating distress.
Have you tried steroids to make her feel better? Dexamethasone? It
often really perks them up, even close to the end.
Michelle
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Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Lernermichelle



Nina, I am sorry.  This is so awful for you and her to have to go through this. If you do euthanize at some point, maybe you can give her some oral valium first, the way you did earlier, so that she is more relaxed for the process?  
 
While she does sound uncomfortable, she does not sound like she is in any kind of excruciating distress.
 
Have you tried steroids to make her feel better? Dexamethasone?  It often really perks them up, even close to the end.
 
Michelle

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

This goes for you as well Kerry.  You never told me the full 
circumstances of what happened with Levi, but I know it was horrendous 
for both of you.  You're too kind and loving a person to dwell on what 
happened.  What can we do, but move on and learn from life's hard 
lessons the best we can.  Now if only my wisdom would kick in and help 
with my present circumstance.  

I do want you all to know, I am, at least for the moment, feeling 
calmer.  Grace is still resting comfortably.  I brought her from the 
garage, incredibly, she has chosen the same spot as Jazz did in her last 
days, (incredible, because neither one of them ever went to that spot 
before they were in the process of dieing), anyway, when I brought her 
outside, she licked the cement, tell me that doesn't clutch at my heart, 
and laid down again.  Using an eyedropper, I gave her some watery 
chicken broth with a couple of drops of Pet Tinic in it.  She only got a 
couple of drops, she pulls her face away from me and doesn't want to 
swallow.  I brought her into the computer room and put her in her bed on 
my desk.  I was rewarded by her twisting her head, you know, that twist 
they do with their head and the body sort of rolls after it into a 
comfortable position?  She stayed on the desk for only a few minutes, 
falling into one of those disconcerting sleeps with her eyes wide open, 
maybe it was too warm for her in the morning sun.  She started up and 
looked down at the floor.  I helped her down and she's been lying on her 
side, then up into the stiff-down-upright position.  I hate that she's 
so at dis-ease in her body.


Sorry, I'm rambling again,
N

Nina wrote:


Bonnie,
This was one of my concerns.  I'm so sorry you had this experience, 
but because of it, you may be helping others, you're certainly helping 
me.  I know how hard it is to forgive ourselves when these things 
happen.  Your intentions were loving and I know that Katyusha knows 
this too.  I'm positive that she feels there is nothing to forgive, 
please try to let go of it for her sake, as well as your own.  She 
doesn't want your thoughts and memories of her to be clouded with such 
harsh feelings.  She loves you still and wants you only to smile when 
you think of her.


It's never easy making these kind of decisions.  I still don't know 
what I'm going to do.  I have the appointment set for tomorrow.  I 
guess I'll have to wait till then to decide if we go or not.  Thanks 
Bonnie,

N

BONNIE J KALMBACH wrote:


Nina wrote:
Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in 
an emaciated condition?

Dear Nina,
 You would want the vet to be VERY CAREFUL. One of my positive 
kitties, my beloved little shy golden turkish angora kitty, Katyusha, 
had a very painful death  - I think - because she was so emaciated 
that when the vet injected her with the tranqulizer, she screamed out 
in pain. This was her last conscious memory. This haunts me to this 
very day.
 
Bonnie in WI

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace


Bonnie,
This was one of my concerns.  I'm so sorry you had this experience, but 
because of it, you may be helping others, you're certainly helping me.  
I know how hard it is to forgive ourselves when these things happen.  
Your intentions were loving and I know that Katyusha knows this too.  
I'm positive that she feels there is nothing to forgive, please try to 
let go of it for her sake, as well as your own.  She doesn't want your 
thoughts and memories of her to be clouded with such harsh feelings.  
She loves you still and wants you only to smile when you think of her.


It's never easy making these kind of decisions.  I still don't know what 
I'm going to do.  I have the appointment set for tomorrow.  I guess I'll 
have to wait till then to decide if we go or not.  Thanks Bonnie,

N

BONNIE J KALMBACH wrote:


Nina wrote:
Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to 
put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? 


Dear Nina,
 You would want the vet to be VERY CAREFUL. One of my positive 
kitties, my beloved little shy golden turkish angora kitty, Katyusha, 
had a very painful death  - I think - because she was so emaciated that 
when the vet injected her with the tranqulizer, she screamed out in 
pain. This was her last conscious memory. This haunts me to this very 
day. 

 
Bonnie in WI

RE: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Hideyo Yamamoto

Nina..I am crying so hard - and almost cant read your writings on
email.. but just reading from the title and know how you are, I know
exactly what you are going through right now - 

I am so sorry...I don't want Gracie to go --- but I do have to tell you
one thing what George told me via Jasmine after he passed.. he said to
me "don't cry we don't think of "death" in the same way as we do.. I
was not afraid.. and believe me it's not the worst thing it could
happen.. I am feeling fabulous now.. and I so would like to meet again
with you... maybe not in this life time.. but when I meet next time.. I
would like to meet in a different circumstances (he is referring to the
fact that he had a physical limitations (liver problem and FIV) and the
fact that he was confined in a crate for a long time..

When I had to let go Oliver (if you remember) what they did was - the
vet put the IV needle first on him without anything in it.. so that I
can hold him after they set it up.. then,,, they injected whatever it is
afterwards..it was very peaceful in a sort of way.. no pain... it was
just sad on my end because I did not want him to go..

Nina... I know it's hard to think this way.. this is not the end for
Gracie.. she is going to have peaceful and painless life waiting for her
after this please call me if you want to talk..

PS, have you talked to Jasmine and Gracie?

Hideyo

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 8:18 AM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

My Beloved Group,
First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the 
group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the last 
couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the 
posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last 
efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally resigned 
myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'.  Those of 
you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy,

and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with 
you.  I don't know what I would have done without the love and support 
of this group.  You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.

Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.  Among 
other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow.  I'm 
trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I know you understand.

She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and 
bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be 
with her".   During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want

to be sung to, or touched.  It's so hard on me to watch her pull away.  
At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of 
Valium and gave it to her in water.  She was so relaxed she even did a 
stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She did something that 
startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing in

miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the 
couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get 
treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When 
she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the 
couch.  I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going 
to take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have 
knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat it, 
but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces 
of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.

I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my 
attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my 
heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to 
go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I don't want her 
to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be over.  Yesterday, 
when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. 
Ortega would be willing to help her cross.  Grace has always liked Dr. 
Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.  Well, my Internist

isn't going to be in the office until Friday.  It doesn't seem possible 
that Grace will still be here by then.  My stance has always been, that 
when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery 
after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross.  Even

though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes 
shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take 
it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I

RE: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread MacKenzie, Kerry N.

Oh Nina, I'm so sad for you and Gracie. It's so painful for you to watch
her fade away. 
I have never been able to let mine go without intervention. I just
couldn't stomach it, thinking they were suffering while I stood by
helplessly--but I would much prefer that I could, and that they could
cross over peacefully and without intervention. Just having an extra
person involved, with all the invasive procedure that goes with it, must
be so stressful for the little souls, and much more so when it's at the
vet office and not at home. 
Ultimately, dear Nina, I know you will follow your instinct and do what
you think is right, so it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. I
will add, though, that on 3 of the 4 occasions I arranged euthanization
I had sympathetic and sensitive vets. One time I did not (Levi), and it
haunted me for months that his last moments were so full of fear. So I
highly recommened that if you do euthanize, the vet is someone you know
and totally trust in EVERY sense. It makes all the  difference.
You and Gracie are constantly in my thoughts. I'm glad you are able to
be with her.
much love and big, big hugs, Kerryxxx

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:30 AM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Thank you Janine for letting me know what's going on with you and 
MacKenzie.  The picture you paint makes me see your MacKenzie as if he's

in front of my eyes, and not just in my mind.  Your sharing this with 
us, somehow makes me feel a little less alone. 

I'm so torn about this decision.  Maybe it's because my decision with my

sweet, beautiful Angel Jazz was so sudden, so unreasonably 
unexpected  I thought I was growing wiser, but I've never been so 
torn and indecisive in my life.
N

janine paton wrote:

>Hi all, 
>
>I'm going through this same thing and am so grateful
>for all the experience and calmness on this subject. 
>And Nina, I don't feel so crazy since reading how you
>are feeling the same way.
>
>My cat MacKenzie is not positive, but he is dying.  
>His breathing is mostly quieter now, but very shallow.
> He's not hiding at all but has picked a spot on our
>bedroom floor under a window.  He's stopped eating,
>and stopped drinking too I think.He can't really
>walk more than one or two steps. 
>
>My husband and I had this strong feeling that at least
>for now he wants to be here but it's a little tough to
>sit with. 
>
> MacKenzie has been a homeopathic patient for the 3
>yrs he's been with us, so that's how were handling it
>for now too. 
>
>Janine 
>

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Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Sheila208

Nina, my heart breaks for you. I have been through the same situation recently with my Bubba and I know watching them leave is harder than actually losing them. I felt so guilty when he died for having feelings of relief when it was over. Seeing our babies suffer from this terrible disease is horrendous. I truly felt Bubba wanted to leave own his own so I did what I could to make him comfortable and waited. I think if he is as stubborn as Bubba he will want to do it in his own time. My prayers are with you.  Sheila

Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread BONNIE J KALMBACH

Nina wrote:
Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to 
put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? 

Dear Nina,
  You would want the vet to be VERY CAREFUL. One of my positive 
kitties, my beloved little shy golden turkish angora kitty, Katyusha, 
had a very painful death  - I think - because she was so emaciated that 
when the vet injected her with the tranqulizer, she screamed out in 
pain. This was her last conscious memory. This haunts me to this very 
day. 

  
Bonnie in WI

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Janine,
I am sorry to hear about MacKenzie, it is so hard and hurts so much, be strong for him, he needs you now.
Cheriejanine paton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi all, I'm going through this same thing and am so gratefulfor all the experience and calmness on this subject. And Nina, I don't feel so crazy since reading how youare feeling the same way.My cat MacKenzie is not positive, but he is dying. His breathing is mostly quieter now, but very shallow.He's not hiding at all but has picked a spot on ourbedroom floor under a window. He's stopped eating,and stopped drinking too I think. He can't reallywalk more than one or two steps. My husband and I had this strong feeling that at leastfor now he wants to be here but it's a little tough tosit with. MacKenzie has been a homeopathic patient for the 3yrs he's been with us, so that's how were handling itfor now too. Janine Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> My Beloved Group,> First of
 all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to> participate fully in the > group this last couple of weeks. I love you all,> but for the last > couple of days, I haven't even been able bring> myself to read the > posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by> Grace and my last > efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I> finally resigned > myself to thinking of our time together as 'death> bed vigil'. Those of > you that know me, know that I pray all your babies> are safe and healthy, > and those that are losing, or have lost the battle;> my love is with > you. I don't know what I would have done without> the love and support > of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my> sweet fur angels.> > Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want> to stay. Among > other signs, I was syringe feeding her and
 she> refused to swallow. I'm > trying my best to make peace with her decision. I> know you understand. > She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and> she's skin and > bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my> best to just "be > with her". During the afternoon she made it clear> that she didn't want > to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to> watch her pull away. > At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground> up a tiny bit of > Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so> relaxed she even did a > stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She> did something that > startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just> can't stop believing in > miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was> laying on the > couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. > Whenever the dogs get >
 treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and> expect one too. When > she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon,> she jumped off the > couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's> no way she's going > to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway> and you could have > knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute> to decide to eat it, > but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she> ate 3 or 4 pieces > of kibble! My hopes were short lived though.> > I've been up with her most of the night. She still> doesn't want my > attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her,> it's breaking my > heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making> it harder for her to > go, although that is not my intention. It's not> like I don't want her > to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be> over.
 Yesterday, > when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's> office to see if Dr. > Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace> has always liked Dr. > Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.> Well, my Internist > isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It> doesn't seem possible > that Grace will still be here by then. My stance> has always been, that > when I know it's the end, when I know that the> chance of a recovery > after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to> help them cross. Even > though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side> and breathes > shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time> letting nature take > it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand> seeing her like > this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain,> when I look in her > eyes, she doesn't seem
 in pain, but she doesn't seem> like herself > either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost> like she's... not quite > angry, more like annoyed to still be here.> > Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I> think I may have > mentioned it, we've been following an extensive> homeopathic regime with > the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. > While it didn't save > Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for> brief glorious > moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the> Grace I know and love > shining out of her eyes again.> > Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how> difficult it is to > put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? > Of course, I don't > want to make thing

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Nina,
A Grace and all our furrbabies heal the broken hearts, then when they leave us they tend to break all over again...Are they going to come to your house, so you do not have to move her?
Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks Cherie,I just called my Internist's office and they will be able to squeeze me in tomorrow at 9:30. I know you all know how this feels. The final moment, the realization that there's nothing left to do, nothing left to try. How can a heart break over and over again?NCherie A Gabbert wrote:> Nina,> That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an > appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time.> Cherie>> */Barb Moermond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>> Nina,> I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. > If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request> that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja> - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just>
 a shot.>> */Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>> Michelle,> Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling> with> gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking> of you.> I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny,> isn't> it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it> comes to> this... I just feel helpless and humble.> N>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:>> > Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins> smaller> > or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think> that> > should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not> think I> > would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active> pain. I do> > think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with> discomfort of>
 > some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward> the end> > (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I> > personally would probably just keep giving her little bits> of valium> > if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a> dog treat.> > At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait> for the> > vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and> how I do> > things. I know that we are all different with death. And I> have not> > always thought that I did the right thing, either.> > Michelle>> Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito>> "My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress.> Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."> - Anonymous>>
 > Yahoo! for Good> Click here to donate to> the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.  /Have a purrfect day/> /Cherie/> // Have a purrfect day
Cherie

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Thank you Janine for letting me know what's going on with you and 
MacKenzie.  The picture you paint makes me see your MacKenzie as if he's 
in front of my eyes, and not just in my mind.  Your sharing this with 
us, somehow makes me feel a little less alone. 

I'm so torn about this decision.  Maybe it's because my decision with my 
sweet, beautiful Angel Jazz was so sudden, so unreasonably 
unexpected  I thought I was growing wiser, but I've never been so 
torn and indecisive in my life.

N

janine paton wrote:

Hi all, 


I'm going through this same thing and am so grateful
for all the experience and calmness on this subject. 
And Nina, I don't feel so crazy since reading how you

are feeling the same way.

My cat MacKenzie is not positive, but he is dying.  
His breathing is mostly quieter now, but very shallow.

He's not hiding at all but has picked a spot on our
bedroom floor under a window.  He's stopped eating,
and stopped drinking too I think.He can't really
walk more than one or two steps. 


My husband and I had this strong feeling that at least
for now he wants to be here but it's a little tough to
sit with. 


MacKenzie has been a homeopathic patient for the 3
yrs he's been with us, so that's how were handling it
for now too. 

Janine

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread janine paton

Hi all, 

I'm going through this same thing and am so grateful
for all the experience and calmness on this subject. 
And Nina, I don't feel so crazy since reading how you
are feeling the same way.

My cat MacKenzie is not positive, but he is dying.  
His breathing is mostly quieter now, but very shallow.
 He's not hiding at all but has picked a spot on our
bedroom floor under a window.  He's stopped eating,
and stopped drinking too I think.He can't really
walk more than one or two steps. 

My husband and I had this strong feeling that at least
for now he wants to be here but it's a little tough to
sit with. 

 MacKenzie has been a homeopathic patient for the 3
yrs he's been with us, so that's how were handling it
for now too. 

Janine 

 Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My Beloved Group,
> First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to
> participate fully in the 
> group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all,
> but for the last 
> couple of days, I haven't even been able bring
> myself to read the 
> posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by
> Grace and my last 
> efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I
> finally resigned 
> myself to thinking of our time together as 'death
> bed vigil'.  Those of 
> you that know me, know that I pray all your babies
> are safe and healthy, 
> and those that are losing, or have lost the battle;
> my love is with 
> you.  I don't know what I would have done without
> the love and support 
> of this group.  You have been a Godsend to me and my
> sweet fur angels.
> 
> Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want
> to stay.  Among 
> other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she
> refused to swallow.  I'm 
> trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I
> know you understand.  
> She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and
> she's skin and 
> bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my
> best to just "be 
> with her".   During the afternoon she made it clear
> that she didn't want 
> to be sung to, or touched.  It's so hard on me to
> watch her pull away.  
> At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground
> up a tiny bit of 
> Valium and gave it to her in water.  She was so
> relaxed she even did a 
> stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She
> did something that 
> startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just
> can't stop believing in 
> miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was
> laying on the 
> couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I. 
> Whenever the dogs get 
> treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and
> expect one too.  When 
> she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon,
> she jumped off the 
> couch.  I started to cry, because I thought, there's
> no way she's going 
> to take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway
> and you could have 
> knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute
> to decide to eat it, 
> but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she
> ate 3 or 4 pieces 
> of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.
> 
> I've been up with her most of the night.  She still
> doesn't want my 
> attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her,
> it's breaking my 
> heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making
> it harder for her to 
> go, although that is not my intention.  It's not
> like I don't want her 
> to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be
> over.  Yesterday, 
> when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's
> office to see if Dr. 
> Ortega would be willing to help her cross.  Grace
> has always liked Dr. 
> Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.
>  Well, my Internist 
> isn't going to be in the office until Friday.  It
> doesn't seem possible 
> that Grace will still be here by then.  My stance
> has always been, that 
> when I know it's the end, when I know that the
> chance of a recovery 
> after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to
> help them cross.  Even 
> though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side
> and breathes 
> shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time
> letting nature take 
> it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand
> seeing her like 
> this.  I'm also so worried about her being in pain,
> when I look in her 
> eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem
> like herself 
> either.  I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost
> like she's... not quite 
> angry, more like annoyed to still be here.
> 
> Just to let you know...  Over the past week or so, I
> think I may have 
> mentioned it, we've been following an extensive
> homeopathic regime with 
> the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. 
> While it didn't save 
> Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for
> brief glorious 
> moments, back to me.  It was such a joy to see the
> Grace I know and love 
> shining out of her eyes again.
> 
> Anyway, here's my question:  Can anyone tell me how
> difficult it is to 
> put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? 
> Of course, I

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Barb Moermond

Because your heart is big enough and flexible enough to love over and over again.Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks Cherie,I just called my Internist's office and they will be able to squeeze me in tomorrow at 9:30. I know you all know how this feels. The final moment, the realization that there's nothing left to do, nothing left to try. How can a heart break over and over again?NCherie A Gabbert wrote:> Nina,> That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an > appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time.> Cherie>> */Barb Moermond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>> Nina,> I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. > If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request> that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja> - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just>
 a shot.>> */Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>> Michelle,> Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling> with> gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking> of you.> I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny,> isn't> it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it> comes to> this... I just feel helpless and humble.> N>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:>> > Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins> smaller> > or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think> that> > should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not> think I> > would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active> pain. I do> > think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with> discomfort of>
 > some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward> the end> > (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I> > personally would probably just keep giving her little bits> of valium> > if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a> dog treat.> > At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait> for the> > vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and> how I do> > things. I know that we are all different with death. And I> have not> > always thought that I did the right thing, either.> > Michelle>> Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito>> "My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress.> Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."> - Anonymous>>
 > Yahoo! for Good> Click here to donate to> the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.  /Have a purrfect day/> /Cherie/> // Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito"My cat the clown:  paying no mind to whom he should impress.  Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."- Anonymous
		Yahoo! for Good 
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Thanks Cherie,
I just called my Internist's office and they will be able to squeeze me 
in tomorrow at 9:30.  I know you all know how this feels.  The final 
moment, the realization that there's nothing left to do, nothing left to 
try.  How can a heart break over and over again?

N

Cherie A Gabbert wrote:

Nina,
That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an 
appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time.

Cherie

*/Barb Moermond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:

Nina,
I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. 
If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request

that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja
- no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just
a shot.

*/Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:

Michelle,
Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling
with
gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking
of you.
I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny,
isn't
it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it
comes to
this... I just feel helpless and humble.
N

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins
smaller
> or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think
that
> should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not
think I
> would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active
pain. I do
> think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with
discomfort of
> some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward
the end
> (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I
> personally would probably just keep giving her little bits
of valium
> if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a
dog treat.
> At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait
for the
> vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and
how I do
> things. I know that we are all different with death. And I
have not
> always thought that I did the right thing, either.
> Michelle

Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito

"My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress.
Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."
- Anonymous

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate  to
the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. 

/Have a purrfect day/
/Cherie/
//

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Nina,
That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time.
CherieBarb Moermond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Nina,
I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot.Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Michelle,Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble.N[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller > or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that > should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I > would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do > think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of > some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end > (Simon was like that both times that
I thought he was dying). I > personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium > if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. > At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the > vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do > things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not > always thought that I did the right thing, either.> MichelleBarb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito"My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile." - Anonymous

Yahoo! for GoodClick here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Have a purrfect day
Cherie

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Nina maybe then you should wait until your vet is back on Fridayif you call in a stranger it could be cold...Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Kat,Thank you for your kindness. I did talk to an AC about Grace. She did say that it would be okay to help her cross. This was, can it be, just yesterday morning? When she asked Grace what her sign to me would be when she was ready, Grace told her "When she's sees the pain in my eyes - believe it." She also said in regard to whomever helps her cross, that they be sensitive, respectful... that they not treat her like an object. NKat wrote:>Nina,>My heart goes out to you - this is such a difficult time.>>I would ask Grace what she wants - to go on her own or to be>assisted. If she asks for assistance, then I would also ask her>if she wants someone "new" to come now, or if she wants to wait>for "her vet" Dr.Ortega.>>Please know that we all love and support you, no matter what
 course>of action is decided on. We've walked the same path and we will walk>with you too. I, too, have not posted very much over this last year ->way too much "stuff" going on, sapping my spirit - but I do read, and I>do pray for everyone on this list, and I have followed your posts about>Grace.>Kat (Mew Jersey)>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Nina wrote:>> >>>Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:18:15 -0700>>From: Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org>>To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org>>Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace>>>>My Beloved Group,>>First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the>>group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last>>couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the>>posts. I'm physically and
 emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last>>efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned>>myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of>>you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy,>>and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with>>you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support>>of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.>>>>Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay. Among>>other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm>>trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand.>>She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and>>bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be>>with her". During the afternoon she made it
 clear that she didn't want>>to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away.>>At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of>>Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a>>stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that>>startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in>>miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the>>couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get>>treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When>>she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the>>couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going>>to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have>>knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat
 it,>>but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces>>of kibble! My hopes were short lived though.>>>>I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my>>attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my>>heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to>>go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her>>to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday,>>when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr.>>Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr.>>Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist>>isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible>>that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that>>when I know it's the
 end, when I know that the chance of a recovery>>after treatment isn't possible, then

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Oh Nina,
I am so sorry for all you are going through, if it helps a good vet will be able to do it once, my Mariah was skin and bones and I too was worried about the vein situation but, it took one and then it was over..Grace sounds like she is ready, but you can only know that I wish I could help, maybe just knowing that you are not alone will help. We (the group) are with you and here for you, Grace needs to eat and drink, and play but she loves you and does not want to leave you, she is probally torn just like you. Again I am so sorry for you having to go through this, you and Grace are in my thoughts and prayersTake care
Cherie Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My Beloved Group,First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow.
I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be with her". During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I
thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though.I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will
still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here.Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments,
back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again.Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because they're so small? I just want to know what to expect. I'm thinking of calling a house call vet to see if he can come today, but I don't want this to be harder on Grace. I'm still struggling with the thought that my underlying motives might be to make things easier on me. I just want to do what's right for Grace. My judgemen

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Barb Moermond

I had to look up the exact meaning myself http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parenteral
 
it's an injection into the abdomen, but not into any organ within the abdomen
 
Ninja winced a bit with the initial needle entry, but that was it.  Unfortunately, she was so ill, intestinal lymphoma, that her system wasn't absorbing the drug efficiently and a 2nd injection was required - but she didn't notice that at all, she was mostly gone.  I think it is a gentler way for many creatures who wouldn't tolerate an IV.Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello, Barb, thank you. What does "parenterally" mean exactly? Is that subq, IM?NBarb Moermond wrote:> Nina,> I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If > you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they > inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried > or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot.>> */Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>> Michelle,> Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with> gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of> you.> I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't> it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it> comes to> this... I just feel helpless and
 humble.> N>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:>> > Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller> > or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that> > should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I> > would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain.> I do> > think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with> discomfort of> > some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end> > (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I> > personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of> valium> > if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog> treat.> > At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the> > vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do>
 > things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not> > always thought that I did the right thing, either.> > Michelle>> Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito>> "My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely > living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."> - Anonymous>> > Yahoo! for Good> Click here to donate to the > Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito"My cat the clown:  paying no mind to whom he should impress.  Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."- Anonymous
		Yahoo! for Good 
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Hello, Barb, thank you.  What does "parenterally" mean exactly?  Is that 
subq, IM?

N

Barb Moermond wrote:

Nina,
I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard.  If 
you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they 
inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried 
or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot.

*/Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:

Michelle,
Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with
gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of
you.
I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't
it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it
comes to
this... I just feel helpless and humble.
N

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller
> or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that
> should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I
> would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain.
I do
> think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with
discomfort of
> some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end
> (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I
> personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of
valium
> if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog
treat.
> At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the
> vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do
> things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not
> always thought that I did the right thing, either.
> Michelle

Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito

"My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely 
living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."

- Anonymous

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate  to the 
Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace


Hello Kat,
Thank you for your kindness.  I did talk to an AC about Grace.  She did 
say that it would be okay to help her cross.  This was, can it be, just 
yesterday morning?  When she asked Grace what her sign to me would be 
when she was ready, Grace told her "When she's sees the pain in my eyes 
- believe it."  She also said in regard to whomever helps her cross, 
that they be sensitive, respectful... that they not treat her like an 
object. 
N


Kat wrote:


Nina,
My heart goes out to you - this is such a difficult time.

I would ask Grace what she wants - to go on her own or to be
assisted.  If she asks for assistance, then I would also ask her
if she wants someone "new" to come now, or if she wants to wait
for "her vet" Dr.Ortega.

Please know that we all love and support you, no matter what course
of action is decided on.  We've walked the same path and we will walk
with you too.  I, too, have not posted very much over this last year -
way too much "stuff" going on, sapping my spirit - but I do read, and I
do pray for everyone on this list, and I have followed your posts about
Grace.
Kat (Mew Jersey)

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Nina wrote:

 


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:18:15 -0700
From: Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

My Beloved Group,
First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the
group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the last
couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the
posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last
efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally resigned
myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'.  Those of
you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy,
and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with
you.  I don't know what I would have done without the love and support
of this group.  You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.

Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.  Among
other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow.  I'm
trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I know you understand.
She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and
bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be
with her".   During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want
to be sung to, or touched.  It's so hard on me to watch her pull away.
At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of
Valium and gave it to her in water.  She was so relaxed she even did a
stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She did something that
startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing in
miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the
couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get
treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When
she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the
couch.  I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going
to take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have
knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat it,
but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces
of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.

I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my
attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my
heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to
go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I don't want her
to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be over.  Yesterday,
when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr.
Ortega would be willing to help her cross.  Grace has always liked Dr.
Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.  Well, my Internist
isn't going to be in the office until Friday.  It doesn't seem possible
that Grace will still be here by then.  My stance has always been, that
when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery
after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross.  Even
though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes
shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take
it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like
this.  I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her
eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself
either.  I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite
angry, more l

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Barb Moermond

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

Thank you Joan for sharing you experience.  I think I may call the 
housecall vet.  I've never felt so indecisive in my life.  It's amazing 
how such a sweet, loving little soul can stir up such despair.

N

Doljan, Joan wrote:


Nina,

I am so, so, sorry about you losing Grace. I think you are right, in
thinking that she feels it is time to go. I think she is turning away from
you to spare both of you more pain. I have had to euthanize very thin cats
as well and there has never been a problem. The tranquilizer has always gone
in gently and then they just relax, sometimes sleep and sometimes "cross" at
that time as well. I always hold them as well and then put them gently on a
towel or blanket.

Again, I am so sorry about your pain and sadness.

Joan

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:18 AM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace


My Beloved Group,
First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the 
group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the last 
couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the 
posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last 
efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally resigned 
myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'.  Those of 
you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, 
and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with 
you.  I don't know what I would have done without the love and support 
of this group.  You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.


Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.  Among 
other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow.  I'm 
trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I know you understand.  
She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and 
bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be 
with her".   During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want 
to be sung to, or touched.  It's so hard on me to watch her pull away.  
At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of 
Valium and gave it to her in water.  She was so relaxed she even did a 
stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She did something that 
startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing in 
miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the 
couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get 
treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When 
she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the 
couch.  I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going 
to take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have 
knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat it, 
but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces 
of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.


I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my 
attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my 
heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to 
go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I don't want her 
to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be over.  Yesterday, 
when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. 
Ortega would be willing to help her cross.  Grace has always liked Dr. 
Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.  Well, my Internist 
isn't going to be in the office until Friday.  It doesn't seem possible 
that Grace will still be here by then.  My stance has always been, that 
when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery 
after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross.  Even 
though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes 
shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take 
it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like 
this.  I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her 
eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself 
either.  I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite 
angry, more like annoyed to still be here.


Just to let you know...  Over the past week or so, I think I may have 
mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with 
the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer.  While it didn't save 
Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious 
moments, back to me.  It was such

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace


Michelle,
Thank you so much for answering my post.  When I was struggling with 
gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you.  
I wanted your opinion about this.  I wish I were braver.  Funny, isn't 
it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to 
this...  I just feel helpless and humble.

N

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Nina, I am so sorry.  I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller 
or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that 
should be a concern.  You know how I am, though, I do not think I 
would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain.  I do 
think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of 
some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end 
(Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I 
personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium 
if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat.  
At least until things got worse.  And you could try to wait for the 
vet she likes then, at least.  Anyway, that is just me, and how I do 
things. I know that we are all different with death.  And I have not 
always thought that I did the right thing, either.

Michelle

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Kat

Nina,
My heart goes out to you - this is such a difficult time.

I would ask Grace what she wants - to go on her own or to be
assisted.  If she asks for assistance, then I would also ask her
if she wants someone "new" to come now, or if she wants to wait
for "her vet" Dr.Ortega.

Please know that we all love and support you, no matter what course
of action is decided on.  We've walked the same path and we will walk
with you too.  I, too, have not posted very much over this last year -
way too much "stuff" going on, sapping my spirit - but I do read, and I
do pray for everyone on this list, and I have followed your posts about
Grace.
Kat (Mew Jersey)

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Nina wrote:

> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:18:15 -0700
> From: Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
>
> My Beloved Group,
> First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the
> group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the last
> couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the
> posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last
> efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally resigned
> myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'.  Those of
> you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy,
> and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with
> you.  I don't know what I would have done without the love and support
> of this group.  You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.
>
> Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.  Among
> other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow.  I'm
> trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I know you understand.
> She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and
> bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be
> with her".   During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want
> to be sung to, or touched.  It's so hard on me to watch her pull away.
> At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of
> Valium and gave it to her in water.  She was so relaxed she even did a
> stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She did something that
> startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing in
> miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the
> couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get
> treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When
> she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the
> couch.  I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going
> to take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have
> knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat it,
> but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces
> of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.
>
> I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my
> attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my
> heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to
> go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I don't want her
> to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be over.  Yesterday,
> when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr.
> Ortega would be willing to help her cross.  Grace has always liked Dr.
> Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.  Well, my Internist
> isn't going to be in the office until Friday.  It doesn't seem possible
> that Grace will still be here by then.  My stance has always been, that
> when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery
> after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross.  Even
> though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes
> shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take
> it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like
> this.  I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her
> eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself
> either.  I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite
> angry, more like annoyed to still be here.
>
> Just to let you know...  Over the past week or so, I think I may have
> mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with
> the hel

RE: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Doljan, Joan

Nina,

I am so, so, sorry about you losing Grace. I think you are right, in
thinking that she feels it is time to go. I think she is turning away from
you to spare both of you more pain. I have had to euthanize very thin cats
as well and there has never been a problem. The tranquilizer has always gone
in gently and then they just relax, sometimes sleep and sometimes "cross" at
that time as well. I always hold them as well and then put them gently on a
towel or blanket.

Again, I am so sorry about your pain and sadness.

Joan

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:18 AM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace


My Beloved Group,
First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the 
group this last couple of weeks.  I love you all, but for the last 
couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the 
posts.  I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last 
efforts to bring her back to health.  Yesterday, I finally resigned 
myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'.  Those of 
you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, 
and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with 
you.  I don't know what I would have done without the love and support 
of this group.  You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.

Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay.  Among 
other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow.  I'm 
trying my best to make peace with her decision.  I know you understand.  
She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and 
bones.  She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be 
with her".   During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want 
to be sung to, or touched.  It's so hard on me to watch her pull away.  
At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of 
Valium and gave it to her in water.  She was so relaxed she even did a 
stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun.  She did something that 
startled me, and got my hopes up again.  (I just can't stop believing in 
miracles).  I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the 
couch.  Well, we have this thing Grace and I.  Whenever the dogs get 
treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too.  When 
she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the 
couch.  I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going 
to take a treat.  I put one in front of her anyway and you could have 
knocked me over with a sigh.  It took her a minute to decide to eat it, 
but she not only ate that one, but 3 more.  Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces 
of kibble!  My hopes were short lived though.

I've been up with her most of the night.  She still doesn't want my 
attention.  She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my 
heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to 
go, although that is not my intention.  It's not like I don't want her 
to leave her body, I do.  I want her suffering to be over.  Yesterday, 
when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. 
Ortega would be willing to help her cross.  Grace has always liked Dr. 
Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her.  Well, my Internist 
isn't going to be in the office until Friday.  It doesn't seem possible 
that Grace will still be here by then.  My stance has always been, that 
when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery 
after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross.  Even 
though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes 
shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take 
it's course.  It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like 
this.  I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her 
eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself 
either.  I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite 
angry, more like annoyed to still be here.

Just to let you know...  Over the past week or so, I think I may have 
mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with 
the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer.  While it didn't save 
Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious 
moments, back to me.  It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love 
shining out of her eyes again.

Anyway, here's my question:  Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to 
put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition?  Of course, I don't 
want to make thi

Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace

2005-09-22 Thread Lernermichelle



Nina, I am so sorry.  I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern.  You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain.  I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat.  At least until things got worse.  And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least.  Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death.  And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either.
Michelle

Question about Euthanasia and my Grace