Re: [Finale] Orchestral Notation

[Mark D Lew]

On Dec 2, 2006, at 9:52 AM, dhbailey wrote:

If you don't understand the clef, then set the viola staff to be 
either treble or bass clef and enter the music in a manner you do 
understand and then when it's all entered go back and change the clef 
to the alto clef.


This is sound advice, except that I'd recommend the treble clef that's 
an octave down -- ie, the same one you'd use for the tenor section in a 
chorus.  This is more viola-friendly than getting stuck in the mindset 
of treble vs bass.


My musical experience is overwhelmingly in voice, chorus and piano, and 
I suspect that's true for Jacki as well. Although I do understand the 
alto clef, and I'm reasonably well educated about how to write for 
strings, I simply don't do it often enough to be facile with the alto 
clef.  On the rare occasions I do write for strings, my habit is to use 
the 8vb treble clef for the viola, from which I can imagine that I'm 
writing for a highly idiosyncratic quartet of voices. Then when I'm 
done I switch the "tenor" to alto clef and tidy up the page as 
necessary.


None of this is meant as a rebuttal to the advice that you're really 
better off to learn the clef properly and start to think in it, which I 
don't disagree with.  I know that would be good for me, but the reality 
is, unless there's some significant change in my musical career to 
thrust me into the world of strings, that just isn't going to happen.


--
On Dec 2, 2006, at 10:47 AM, John Howell wrote:


Some people erroneously call the alto clef a "viola clef."


Guilty as charged.  Yes, I know the proper name, and I've had plenty of 
occasions to read C clefs -- perusing orchestra scores, reading from 
old-fashioned choral scores.  Nevertheless, I still like to call it the 
"viola clef".  So sue me.


mdl

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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 08:39 PM 12/3/06 -0800, Bruce E. Clausen wrote:
>I took a few minutes to visit the ISMN website (www.ismn-international.org) 
>and found that it is relatively inexpensive to obtain an ISMN (although they 
>have to be ordered in bulk).  If having such a number does indeed increase 
>one's likelihood of distribution it should make sense to get one.  How do 
>you all feel about the pros and cons here?

I see that Bowker in the US (the company that issues ISBNs) has only been
issuing ISMNs for four years. That could account for the slowness of their
adoption. I tried to search Amazon for ISMNs, but no luck, so I sent an
email to their publisher service department asking if they did or will
provide ISMN support. I'll report back. 

I'm a big fan of online sourcing, particularly since I'm not near a city.
There's no music store of any quality closer than a four-hour drive.

Dennis





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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Bruce E. Clausen]

I took a few minutes to visit the ISMN website (www.ismn-international.org) 
and found that it is relatively inexpensive to obtain an ISMN (although they 
have to be ordered in bulk).  If having such a number does indeed increase 
one's likelihood of distribution it should make sense to get one.  How do 
you all feel about the pros and cons here?

Bruce Clausen


- Original Message - 
From: "Kim Patrick Clow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues



On 12/3/06, Eric Fiedler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Do try to exercise a little restraint when talking about matters
you're maybe not quite sure about.


I will, if you will.


In principal, all publishers print "on demand",
"on demand", the difference being the size and frequency of the print
runs. Our print runs average between 300 and 400 copies, which, while
certainly not in the same league with the big boys, can't really be
described as "print on demand."


I did not use the words "print on demand" as a demeaning phrase, or in
pejorative sense.  So if you were offended, my apologies. Maybe a less
offensive phrase would be "non traditional publisher methods" would be
less offensive. But no matter how we define such desktop publishing;
it's not the traditional method of how editions are published.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print_on_demand discusses this new trend
in desktop publishing; and was my point in reference in asking my
question in the first place, which was do such desktop publishing
editions benefit from having an ISBN. That's what I was unclear about.
Does having that allow your editions more exposure?

Numbers aren't the only issue that defines a traditional versus a
non-traditional publisher. From what I've been told: print on
demand/non traditional publishers do not allow returns from vendors or
distributors; and they also tend to have a much higher mark up versus
the more traditional methologies: all of which makes it harder for
such editions to get into the mainstream distribution system.
Again---that's based what I've been told. If anyone else has a
different experience, that's great. I hope the market opens  up for
smaller houses and non traditional publishers, because a lot of the
material that matters to most of us, isn't being printed by "the big
boys."


Also the editions are distributed by
Harrassowitz in Wiesbaden, while "print on demand" publishers usually
deal more or less directly with the customers.


The library staff at Columbia University told me that any print on
demand publisher that gets an ISBN or ISMN stands a good chance of
being picked up by a distributor, especially if they have material
they know they have customers for. I was specfically told about
Harrassowitz. So no, while generally what you said can be the case,
it's not always. Just as apparently you can sell directly to
distributors without having ISBNs or ISMNs (according to comments
here).


Thanks,

Kim
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RE: [Finale] Orchestral Notation

[keith helgesen]

Interesting- I'm in "Simple- never tried Speedy" mode! (apart from asking
for diatonic accidentals!)

Cheers K in OZ

Keith Helgesen.
Director of Music, Canberra City Band.
Ph: (02) 62910787. Mob 0417-042171

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
A-NO-NE Music
Sent: Monday, 4 December 2006 12:39 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] Orchestral Notation

[EMAIL PROTECTED] / 2006/12/03 / 04:31 AM wrote:

>However, when I use Finale I am forced to use the "show in concert pitch"  
>option because when I enter a note for a transposed instrument, let's say a

>written F for horn (sounding Bb) the note that Finale plays isn't the
>real note,  the Bb, but a concert F. 

I am frustrated with this, too.  Like you said, it is very important to
think in transposed notation, or it is very difficult to imagine the
fingerling limitations and how the range will sound :-(

How other people are dealing with this?  May be I need to switch from
long-accustomed-Speedy to never-tried-Simple?

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] Orchestral Notation

[A-NO-NE Music]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] / 2006/12/03 / 04:31 AM wrote:

>However, when I use Finale I am forced to use the "show in concert pitch"  
>option because when I enter a note for a transposed instrument, let's say a  
>written F for horn (sounding Bb) the note that Finale plays isn't the
>real note,  the Bb, but a concert F. 

I am frustrated with this, too.  Like you said, it is very important to
think in transposed notation, or it is very difficult to imagine the
fingerling limitations and how the range will sound :-(

How other people are dealing with this?  May be I need to switch from
long-accustomed-Speedy to never-tried-Simple?

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] Japanese fonts - Hiragana or Katakana

[A-NO-NE Music]

Michael Good / 2006/12/01 / 01:57 PM wrote:

>Make sure you have a real font that's really installed on your
>computer selected at the top of the box. You'll get an empty list like
>you describe if the font isn't available, or is somehow misinstalled.

As I said, I am on native Windows 2000 Japanese, not the one sold in US
with Japanese locale.  This means I do have tons of native Japanese
fonts, which Finale can not list within because the name of the fonts
are all Japanese, of course.  All the non Japanese fonts gets listed
there no problem.

Anyway, I have been using Japanese on Mac version no problem.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Carl Dershem]

John Howell wrote:


On 12/3/06, Eric Fiedler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


In principal, all publishers print "on demand",
"on demand", the difference being the size and frequency of the print
runs. Our print runs average between 300 and 400 copies, which, while
certainly not in the same league with the big boys, can't really be
described as "print on demand."



The problem, as I understand it, is that "the big boys" reprint only 
when and if they can see continuing demand sufficient to offset the 
setup expenses of reprinting and the anticipated cost of storage for 
those large print runs.  Which leads to some hard-headed business 
decisions that leave us all facing a situation of Permanently Out Of 
Print for things that we would gladly pay for if we could.  THAT is what 
print-on-demand is supposed to do away with, accepting higher printing 
costs in exchange for never going out of print.


And, of course, it is not a strictly black and white proposition.  There 
are the few BIG publishers, a bunch of small POD houses, and a few 
people who fall in between.  The advent of computers has really shifted 
the balance here, as did the advent of simple recording and broadcasting 
100 years ago.


cd
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#
http://members.cox.net/dershem

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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[John Howell]

On 12/3/06, Eric Fiedler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


In principal, all publishers print "on demand",
"on demand", the difference being the size and frequency of the print
runs. Our print runs average between 300 and 400 copies, which, while
certainly not in the same league with the big boys, can't really be
described as "print on demand."


The problem, as I understand it, is that "the big boys" reprint only 
when and if they can see continuing demand sufficient to offset the 
setup expenses of reprinting and the anticipated cost of storage for 
those large print runs.  Which leads to some hard-headed business 
decisions that leave us all facing a situation of Permanently Out Of 
Print for things that we would gladly pay for if we could.  THAT is 
what print-on-demand is supposed to do away with, accepting higher 
printing costs in exchange for never going out of print.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] Transposing

[John Howell]

At 7:15 PM + 12/3/06, Will Denayer wrote:


Hi John, I am only curious, what are chortons and kammertons?
Sorry, don't know it. Best, Will


Chorton is "choir pitch."  Kammerton is "chamber pitch."  This is 
just one little complication in trying to pin down baroque performing 
pitches.  There was no standard pitch, like A=440 hz.  None.  Not 
even A=415, which was one possible standard but only one of many. 
But there appear to have been regional standards, or at least 
generally accepted ranges of standards, such that, e.g., pitch in 
Paris was quite low (around A=392 or even lower, judging by surviving 
woodwinds), while someone wrote that Venice had the highest pitch in 
Europe, perhaps A=460 or even higher, probably referring to the 
organs at St. Mark's.  (I'm sure this is covered more accurately and 
in more detail in Bruce Haynes' book, "The Story of A."  One 
implication is that, unlike today when musicians are expected to have 
their own professional quality instruments and use them for all gigs, 
they were expected to play the instruments owned by the particular 
church or court they were playing at, tuned by the makers to match 
that particular church's or court's pitch.)


In Bach's part of Germany, apparently some of the organs were tuned 
to a comparatively high pitch, which the singers and the church-owned 
instruments had to match, while the instruments used for chamber 
music (i.e. all music outside the church) were tuned to a lower 
pitch.  But it's even more complicated than that, because apparently 
there were both high and low chorton and high and low Kammerton.  (I 
used to have all these relationships down pat when I was in grad 
school, but haven't had to think about them for 30 years!)


We first ran into the practical implications of this back in the late 
'60s, when our conductor at Indiana decided to do Cantata 106, and 
asked Susie to prepare the recorder players.  After seeing that the 
(presumably alto) recorder parts went down to Eb, she called Fredrich 
von Heune, the main American recorder maker at that time, and 
innocently asked, "do you have any altos in Eb that can be rented?" 
There was silence on the line for a moment, and then he replied, 
"you're doing 106, aren't you?  Let me explain."  The Bach 
Gesellschaft editors had made a decision that Bach intended the piece 
to be in Eb, but he really intended it to be in F AT WHATEVER PITCH 
STANDARD WAS IN USE IN THAT PLACE.


JOHN


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Kim Patrick Clow]

On 12/3/06, Eric Fiedler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Do try to exercise a little restraint when talking about matters
you're maybe not quite sure about.


I will, if you will.


In principal, all publishers print "on demand",
"on demand", the difference being the size and frequency of the print
runs. Our print runs average between 300 and 400 copies, which, while
certainly not in the same league with the big boys, can't really be
described as "print on demand."


I did not use the words "print on demand" as a demeaning phrase, or in
pejorative sense.  So if you were offended, my apologies. Maybe a less
offensive phrase would be "non traditional publisher methods" would be
less offensive. But no matter how we define such desktop publishing;
it's not the traditional method of how editions are published.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print_on_demand discusses this new trend
in desktop publishing; and was my point in reference in asking my
question in the first place, which was do such desktop publishing
editions benefit from having an ISBN. That's what I was unclear about.
Does having that allow your editions more exposure?

Numbers aren't the only issue that defines a traditional versus a
non-traditional publisher. From what I've been told: print on
demand/non traditional publishers do not allow returns from vendors or
distributors; and they also tend to have a much higher mark up versus
the more traditional methologies: all of which makes it harder for
such editions to get into the mainstream distribution system.
Again---that's based what I've been told. If anyone else has a
different experience, that's great. I hope the market opens  up for
smaller houses and non traditional publishers, because a lot of the
material that matters to most of us, isn't being printed by "the big
boys."


Also the editions are distributed by
Harrassowitz in Wiesbaden, while "print on demand" publishers usually
deal more or less directly with the customers.


The library staff at Columbia University told me that any print on
demand publisher that gets an ISBN or ISMN stands a good chance of
being picked up by a distributor, especially if they have material
they know they have customers for. I was specfically told about
Harrassowitz. So no, while generally what you said can be the case,
it's not always. Just as apparently you can sell directly to
distributors without having ISBNs or ISMNs (according to comments
here).


Thanks,

Kim
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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Eric Fiedler]

Kim,
Do try to exercise a little restraint when talking about matters  
you're maybe not quite sure about. In principal, all publishers print  
"on demand", the difference being the size and frequency of the print  
runs. Our print runs average between 300 and 400 copies, which, while  
certainly not in the same league with the big boys, can't really be  
described as "print on demand" — although we're always eager to print  
more if someone demands it! ;-). Also the editions are distributed by  
Harrassowitz in Wiesbaden, while "print on demand" publishers usually  
deal more or less directly with the customers.

And the name is Fiedler, not Fielder ;-(
Cheers!
EFF

Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler)
www.habsburgerverlag.de
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



On 03.12.2006, at 17:00, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:

I stand corrected about the Garri Editions and Eric Fielder's Telemann
cantata cycle editions (these are self published music editions and
are published in the non traditional method-- a.k.a. "print on
demand".


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Re: [Finale] Transposing

[Kim Patrick Clow]

On 12/3/06, Will Denayer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi John, I am only curious, what are chortons and kammertons?
Sorry, don't know it. Best, Will


http://idrs.colorado.edu/Publications/DR/DR9.1/DR9.1.Bukoff.html

--
Kim Patrick Clow
"There's really only two types of music: good and bad." ~ Rossini
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[Finale] Transposing

[Will Denayer]

Bach, for example, never wrote transposing 
instrumental parts, but did use different clefs for high, medium and 
low instruments.

(Yes, i know about his brass parts, and about chorton and kammerton, 
but please don't complicate things at this point!)

Hi John, I am only curious, what are chortons and kammertons? 
Sorry, don't know it. Best, Will


 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 
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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Kim Patrick Clow]

Andrew Stiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Never--especially in caps--is too strong a word. I am a music
publisher, and print on demand; and libraries do, in fact, occasionally
(several times a year) order directly from my website or from my
printed catalog. I encourage them to do this by offering a 10% discount
on all such direct  library orders.

It is true that I sell far more copies to the big distributors, but
NEVER? Never.



Ok. That's fair enough. The music librarian I spoke to at Columbia was
speaking for herself, but she was pretty adamant about the fact she
doesn't order direct from POD publishers.

Thanks much!

Kim
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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Andrew Stiller]

On Dec 3, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:


 libraries will NEVER order material from a
publisher's website.  They rely completely on music distributors for
catalogues and updates on new materials stocked.



Never--especially in caps--is too strong a word. I am a music 
publisher, and print on demand; and libraries do, in fact, occasionally 
(several times a year) order directly from my website or from my 
printed catalog. I encourage them to do this by offering a 10% discount 
on all such direct  library orders.


It is true that I sell far more copies to the big distributors, but 
NEVER? Never.


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/

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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Kim Patrick Clow]

I stand corrected about the Garri Editions and Eric Fielder's Telemann
cantata cycle editions (these are self published music editions and
are published in the non traditional method-- a.k.a. "print on
demand". The music library at Columbia told me that those editions do
have ISMNs, so they are "in the system."

She also agreed with me that the dust has not settled down yet in the
subject of "print on demand" (P.O.D.) music editions versus the larger
publishers - at least in terms for how libraries make acquisitions.
According to her, the only way the large publishers make profits is
via leasing parts to performers, and the publishing rights (i.e. movie
soundtracks, CDs, cell phone ring tones, etc). They're simply not
going to invest the amounts of money needed to promote unknown music
that they aren't sure will sell (again, that's according to her). But
the bottom line she said, libraries will NEVER order material from a
publisher's website.  They rely completely on music distributors for
catalogues and updates on new materials stocked.

The buyer for Patelson's music store in midtown-- an institution for
New York, has has told me the same thing as well. But he thinks some
of the downturn in sales of editions is directly tied to desktop
publishing and P.O.D. methodologies.

Thanks for all the replies to my inquiry, I appreciate them.

Yours in music,

Kim
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Re: [Finale] Orchestral Notation

[dhbailey]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I prefer to work with the instruments in written pitch, especially when  
writing for brass - being a horn player I know what the different ranges sound  
like.  When I write on paper I write the instruments as they will be  written in 
the parts.
 
However, when I use Finale I am forced to use the "show in concert pitch"  
option because when I enter a note for a transposed instrument, let's say a  
written F for horn (sounding Bb) the note that Finale plays isn't the real note,  
the Bb, but a concert F.  
 
I'm afraid this is enough to trash my train of thought and I really don't  
understand why Finale does it this way.  Maybe others prefer it, I don't  know.
 


I had noticed that, and for that plus many other reasons I have that 
option turned off.  I know the pitch I'm entering anyway and don't need 
to hear it as I enter it.


It is very disconcerting to enter a note on a transposing staff and have 
Finale play it as if that pitch were the concert pitch, and is 
incomprehensible why normal Finale playback knows what the correct 
concert pitch ought to be yet the entry modes don't know that.  Just 
another example of something that MakeMusic could fix but chooses not 
to, as it races on its way to getting ThoughtNotator(tm) functioning.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] moving partial measure

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 03.12.2006 Cecil Rigby wrote:

I want the last beat of a measure on the next system. Using the measure tool I 
select the split option and then click on the box I created at the obvious 
place over the measure. Then I use the mass mover tool and hit the down arrow, 
et voila-   the last beat moves as intended.



There is a plugin in 2k6 which can split a measure into two, with an 
invisible barline and the numbering corrected. Use that, the measure 
tool is useless for this.


Johannes
--
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http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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[Finale] moving partial measure

[Cecil Rigby]

Hi all-

through the years I've never had to use the feature before & I'm wondering if 
I'm missing something or if there's a known bug.

FinWin06b...
I want the last beat of a measure on the next system. Using the measure tool I 
select the split option and then click on the box I created at the obvious 
place over the measure. Then I use the mass mover tool and hit the down arrow, 
et voila-   the last beat moves as intended.

But the slur attached to the two notes of the beat disappears, as do the word 
extensions for the associated lyrics (of which there are four verses).

I used the lyric tool and selected modify word extensions to see if I could 
find some handles on what might be temporarily invisible/reset extensions, but 
there were none. I also tried to see if using measure-attached slurs would make 
a difference, but it didn't.

Because I had a deadline I found another couple of notes in the score from 
which to create the slur shape I needed and moved it, and used the line tool to 
make four independent extensions, but this is a quick and dirty fix I'd like to 
avoid having to use in the future. I have more of this type of thing coming in 
a sizable hymnal project...

thanks in advance for any insights-

Cecil Rigby
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Orchestral Notation

[YATESLAWRENCE]

I prefer to work with the instruments in written pitch, especially when  
writing for brass - being a horn player I know what the different ranges sound  
like.  When I write on paper I write the instruments as they will be  written 
in 
the parts.
 
However, when I use Finale I am forced to use the "show in concert pitch"  
option because when I enter a note for a transposed instrument, let's say a  
written F for horn (sounding Bb) the note that Finale plays isn't the real 
note,  
the Bb, but a concert F.  
 
I'm afraid this is enough to trash my train of thought and I really don't  
understand why Finale does it this way.  Maybe others prefer it, I don't  know.
 
All the best,
 
Lawrence
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Re: [Finale] O.T. Self publishing issues

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 01.12.2006 Andrew Stiller wrote:

There is such a thing as an ISMN (International Standard Music Number) that is 
supposed to be used on printed music in place of the ISBN--but it never caught 
on and I don't think I've ever seen a volume that carried one.


Not true. Any recent Bärenreiter volume carries one. I believe it is 
catching on, but slowly. The problem is that 90% of all published music 
ist more than 10 years in print. Music publishing is a slow business, it 
requires a lot of patience. There are no such things as music best 
sellers, at least not in the classical field.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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