[Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
This isn't a specific question so much as my general interest in others' experience with the same phenomenon. I work with singers a lot, and from time to time I'm asked to type up a transposed copy of a song that the singer wants to sing in a different key, for an audition, recital or whatever. In theory, my task is to just copy the original exactly as is, then let Finale magically change it to another key and we're good to go. But sometimes it's not that simple. Very often, the song is one from the early musical theater era -- say, Rodgers Hammerstein or thereabouts -- and the singer is a belty mezzo. The style in those days was to write women singers higher than most women are used to singing today, and even the lower songs are generally in the middle soprano range. Since the belty mezzo is happiest from about G to G on either side of middle C, she typically wants the song transposed down a third or even a fourth. This feels perfectly natural to her, since that's where most female pop and jazz singers sing nowadays, and it's very likely where she's heard that very song recorded by some pop star. So far, so good. I'm not a purist, and I have no problem with transposing to whatever key the singer likes. I am, however, a pragmatist, and what troubles me is what happens to the piano accompanist. A typical accompaniment style for a song of this era is for the right-hand to double the melody with chords harmonizing downward from that. That means that even in the original key the right hand was going into the ledger lines below middle C. After the song is transposed so that the melody frequently dips below middle C, those chords become practically unreadable. What do you do about that? If I see myself as merely a scribe, I can just let it plummet down into the ledger lines and tell the singer, Hey, that's what you asked for; it's not my fault you're transposing too low. But of course I'm more involved than that. As often as not the singer is a colleague, and even if she isn't, I still don't want to give her something unworkable. I don't think there's anything wrong with a singer wanting to transpose down, but I hate to give an ugly, hard-to-read score to the pianist. If it's an audition situation where the pianist is sight-reading, he or she might fumble over a hard-to-read score, making things that much more difficult for the singer, and the audition becomes a disaster. I guess there's two parts to my question: (1) As an engraver, how do you typically go about making the transposition more readable? Do you cross-staff the lower RH notes into the bass clef? or maybe cross staff the whole part down? or maybe you switch the RH to a bass clef for extended passages? (2) Suppose the singer is going to sing the transposed piece in recital, and you're involved. How do you feel about the pianist simply playing the original accompaniment pushed down a fourth? Does it really sound good down there? If not, what do you do about it? Do you revoice some of the chords so that they sound better. Do you move unusually low sections up an octave? Surely I'm not the only one who has had to deal with this. My primary background is classical, but I'm not so out of touch that I haven't noticed that most female pop singers nowadays sing way down in the low range. Most contemporary songs must be written that way, so what is the standard style for piano accompaniment for such songs? Do they tend harmonize above the voice? Do they just stay down low and let the pianist deal with having his right hand in the tenor octave all the time? And if so, how is that typically written? I appreciate any thoughts or observations. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
When I found myself in this position I put the unworkable passages up an octave. Cheers, Lawrence lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
That depends. Remember that those piano parts are reductions and the chords disposition will be different from the original. I would first listen to that original and then made my decision. My favorite solution could be transposing the vocal line as commissioned and placing the chords above the melody. This way you avoid clustering sounds. Doubling the vocal 8va higher can only if e.g. the strings or whatever are doing also. But, when we need a dark sound (as starts You are love from Rodgers Kiss me Kate), one can perfectly go lower and then put the RH in bass clef for clarity. IMHO as a classical musician, who has conducted many older musicals. Regards, Hans -- You will excuse me for any typo's due to a visual handicap. == On 12 feb 2007, at 10:05, Mark D Lew wrote: This isn't a specific question so much as my general interest in others' experience with the same phenomenon. […] I guess there's two parts to my question: (1) As an engraver, how do you typically go about making the transposition more readable? Do you cross-staff the lower RH notes into the bass clef? or maybe cross staff the whole part down? or maybe you switch the RH to a bass clef for extended passages? (2) Suppose the singer is going to sing the transposed piece in recital, and you're involved. How do you feel about the pianist simply playing the original accompaniment pushed down a fourth? Does it really sound good down there? If not, what do you do about it? Do you revoice some of the chords so that they sound better. Do you move unusually low sections up an octave? […] I appreciate any thoughts or observations. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
Hi Mark et al- Some of the remedies you ask about will work better in some pieces than others, of course, so take what happened in my case with that in mind. For a recent wedding I had to transpose the pop song, Time to say goodbye, for a male soloist down to C from a-flat. In that key the piano part was, as you pointed out could happen, unmanageable. Had it not been a paying job I would've just let it be. I found, during first rehearsal, that *my* problems with lots of ledger lines and reading in bass clef were solved by playing *up* to the key, rather than down, but also found this overpowered the already-too-quiet singer most of the time. Also, the singer couldn't hear the actual notes he wanted to sing and flopped all over between high and low registers- a real disaster. So the main problem from a musical point of view was the sound rather than my having to read low notes. (But I did score most everything in bass clef because it made for fewer upper ledger lines than the other way around.) -- not to mention that this piece was meant as a duet and would've worked much better with the thinner accompaniment as one-- The only real solution for this particular piece was to drop most every bass note that was below great C- otherwise the thing would've been very muddy sounding- all those overtones with nowhere to go but against each other- yuk! Any thirds I retained were always more than an octave from their roots. Only in places where there was no singing could I afford to take the liberty of playing up an octave, and I only did it then for some variety and repose from all those low notes. Adding to the overall problem is the slow tempo of the piece that gave low notes that much more time to sound and concatenate. All the music had to be simplified- very few full chords- I kept the accompaniment as thin as possible. And *much* less pedaling!! Revoicing in this case meant just leaving lots of notes out. Pushing them up an octave was too distracting to the singer- and the right hand was supposed to play octaves in many places- how does one revoice those?! I have found if a piece is to be transposed more than a third or fourth up or down then something major usually has to be done to the accompaniment- changes for some pieces are less drastic than for others- again, it depends on the piece. - Since Mark admits to not being a purist the following comments are not intended for him personally--- WHY do people insist on singing something outside their range in auditions? !^#! I'd much rather hear, and can much better judge, a singer who sings in their range as well as they can. And I admit wanting to hear them do standards as much as possible- otherwise it's comparing apples and oranges between singers vying for the same seat. Four altos who audition with music meant for an alto are more likely to get a fair judging than four who sing pieces outside their ranges, I think. What gets me on this was the mention of musical theatre pieces. Most musical theatre composers have a song in a particular range *for a reason.* Can you imagine an alto trying to pull off Gilbert Sullivan's The sun whose rays, from Mikado? All the fine, airy quality written into the music would be turned instantly into smog! Someone tell me how can that music help an alto in an audition situation? To keep this a bit more on topic- I have at times run the check ranges plugin to help identify weak areas in voicing. It's nice that one can set the upper and lower limits to suit Here's hoping the first part was helpful, at least- Cecil Rigby rigrax at earthlink.net - Original Message - From: Mark D Lew To: Finale-List 3 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:05 AM Subject: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward This isn't a specific question so much as my general interest in others' experience with the same phenomenon. I work with singers a lot, and from time to time I'm asked to type up a transposed copy of a song that the singer wants to sing in a different key, for an audition, recital or whatever. In theory, my task is to just copy the original exactly as is, then let Finale magically change it to another key and we're good to go. But sometimes it's not that simple. Very often, the song is one from the early musical theater era -- say, Rodgers Hammerstein or thereabouts -- and the singer is a belty mezzo. The style in those days was to write women singers higher than most women are used to singing today, and even the lower songs are generally in the middle soprano range. Since the belty mezzo is happiest from about G to G on either side of middle C, she typically wants the song transposed down a third or even a fourth. This feels perfectly natural to her, since that's where most female pop and jazz singers sing nowadays, and it's very likely where she's heard that very song
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
Oops! sorry for not removing most of Mark's post from my reply- I got in a hurry- Cecil ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music out of sync
Please send MakeMusic all the details of your grief with Fin2K7. I have been doing so just so they know they passed on a very buggy revision, which I have stopped using after about a week of fighting with it. I just could not give up any more time trying to figure out hw to deal with the new issues I didn't have in 2K6. Still using 2006d with no problems. Hi All: The piece I am working os in 6/4 from bar 1 to bar 192. It then changes to 3/2 from bar 193 until the end. At bar 231 the saxes become out of sync with the brass. There are 2 altos, to tenors and 2 baritones. The saxes are out of sync as a section. This has happened 3 times. When I begin work in the morning, I always save what I am working on as the title and the date. I have only had this happen with Finale/Mac 2007 a and b. I'm glad I have no deadline as it is quite a chore to fix the problem. Thanks for any help. Bob Florence ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Printers used
I'm printing up to 12x18 on an HP Laserjet 5000N. (bought 2 years ago on E-Bay for $700.) I have learned much from the thread concerning binding. I now pose an even more basic question: What printers are recommended for your oversized pages? I would like to purchase one capable of printing larger that 8.5 x 14. Thoughts? Steve ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editing old file in FinMac2006, can't change system bottom margins
Could be several places to find the fix: First, look at your default page setup. Check and see if the systems in question are optimized; sometimes Un-optimizing then re-optimizing wakes up something in the software and it might correct. Another is redefine all pages if the other things aren't working. As a final attempt, you can make sure all your page setup items are what you want, do a Save As so you can always go back to the original file. Then, (this was a Coda (when they were still Coda) solution years ago), Group all the staves as 1 New Group (you can delete it later in the new doc you create), then Extract Parts (SELECTING ONLY the new group you just created). Coda told me this is one way to clean out junky data that may be causing a doc to behave badly. When you open the newly created (extracted) part, you can delete the group you just created and if you still see the goofy margin issues, I don't know what else to suggest that you would want to hear about (ie: re-doing the score, which I have had to do only a couple of times over the years because of a badly corrupted file.) I went straight from 2002b to 2006d, so I've had some issues with midi and playback problems (sometimes a stave or two ignores Hairpings dynamics, expressions, etc) which has given me some serious heartburn, but I have usually been able to fix the problem (usually by creating a new staff and copying ONLY the entries and NOT the Performance/Continuous data info). This only seems to happen when I open the older doc with the newer version, and the older version was set up for midi playback, not using NI/Garritan samples. I've got a strange problem. I have edited a file from 2002 in FinMac 2006c, and I am at the very end of the operation, laying out the score. I can't change the bottom system margins of any system in the score. They are all set to zero, according to the window, but the bottom right handle is about 1.75 inches below the lowest system and obstinately refuses to be raised any more. It is exactly as if there are two extra staves that I can't see, but I can't find any tool that recognises that there are more than seven staves (what I can see.) File Maintenance finds no problems with the integrity of the doc, and Sort or Respace does nothing. I know if all else fails I can copy the contents to a new file and most likely the bug will not be copied to the new file, but that is a lot of work considering I am in the home stretch. Any ideas? I seem to be the only one this happens to. Or maybe I just edit old files a lot, so it happens more. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Staff Style Question
select the whole staff with your midi tool and set velocity to 0. (or just the range of measues you don't want to hear) Hey: Anyone! How do you set a default for chord symbols to NOT PLAYBACK globally? I hate having to uncheck those damn boxes everytime I create a new chord symbol, and I almost always forget. On Feb 11, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: What steps, if any, work to make a staff style no playback? I'd *really* like to be able to set, for example, slashes as no playback, but can't figure out how to set that. I don't of a way to do that, but you COULD put your slashes in Layer 4, and set that layer never to playback in the Instrument List. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Staff Style Question
On Feb 12, 2007, at 8:53 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey: Anyone! How do you set a default for chord symbols to NOT PLAYBACK globally? I hate having to uncheck those damn boxes everytime I create a new chord symbol, and I almost always forget. In 2006, Chord menu, uncheck Enable Chord Playback. You can also turn it off staff by staff with the Instrument List. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
Bad news for you my friend: the only REAL way to solve the problem is revoice the piano accompaniment so it works in a musical way with the new key. Just a strict transposition doesn't really work, because, as you said, you get into the ledger lines, and sonically, it just gets too dark. Sometimes making choices to move the newly transposed music to a higher octave can work, but usually only in particular sections, etc. Just re-write a more musical accompaniment. (A real pain in the neck if you're just providing someone with an audition piece or a one-time performance, because they won't want to pay for your hours of re-writing the accompaniment.) If you decide to use the ledger lines (without revoicing), cross staff where needed is probably the best route. (or changing the clef on the problem staff temporarily) By the way, sheet music publishers tend to write a piano accompaniment that includes the melody, primarily because they expect that the singer is not neccessarily a pro and they will need all the help they can get to deliver the melody (I'm guessing this is a hold over from the Tin Pan Alley days). If you listen to almost any pro sing a song (even if it's only solo piano accompaniment) you will not hear the melody played note for note throughout the accompaniment; it might reference it from time to time, but the singer is carrying the ball (melody), and the accompanist is, well, accompanying/supporting, (not doubling the singer). This isn't a specific question so much as my general interest in others' experience with the same phenomenon. I work with singers a lot, and from time to time I'm asked to type up a transposed copy of a song that the singer wants to sing in a different key, for an audition, recital or whatever. In theory, my task is to just copy the original exactly as is, then let Finale magically change it to another key and we're good to go. But sometimes it's not that simple. Very often, the song is one from the early musical theater era -- say, Rodgers Hammerstein or thereabouts -- and the singer is a belty mezzo. The style in those days was to write women singers higher than most women are used to singing today, and even the lower songs are generally in the middle soprano range. Since the belty mezzo is happiest from about G to G on either side of middle C, she typically wants the song transposed down a third or even a fourth. This feels perfectly natural to her, since that's where most female pop and jazz singers sing nowadays, and it's very likely where she's heard that very song recorded by some pop star. So far, so good. I'm not a purist, and I have no problem with transposing to whatever key the singer likes. I am, however, a pragmatist, and what troubles me is what happens to the piano accompanist. A typical accompaniment style for a song of this era is for the right-hand to double the melody with chords harmonizing downward from that. That means that even in the original key the right hand was going into the ledger lines below middle C. After the song is transposed so that the melody frequently dips below middle C, those chords become practically unreadable. What do you do about that? If I see myself as merely a scribe, I can just let it plummet down into the ledger lines and tell the singer, Hey, that's what you asked for; it's not my fault you're transposing too low. But of course I'm more involved than that. As often as not the singer is a colleague, and even if she isn't, I still don't want to give her something unworkable. I don't think there's anything wrong with a singer wanting to transpose down, but I hate to give an ugly, hard-to-read score to the pianist. If it's an audition situation where the pianist is sight-reading, he or she might fumble over a hard-to-read score, making things that much more difficult for the singer, and the audition becomes a disaster. I guess there's two parts to my question: (1) As an engraver, how do you typically go about making the transposition more readable? Do you cross-staff the lower RH notes into the bass clef? or maybe cross staff the whole part down? or maybe you switch the RH to a bass clef for extended passages? (2) Suppose the singer is going to sing the transposed piece in recital, and you're involved. How do you feel about the pianist simply playing the original accompaniment pushed down a fourth? Does it really sound good down there? If not, what do you do about it? Do you revoice some of the chords so that they sound better. Do you move unusually low sections up an octave? Surely I'm not the only one who has had to deal with this. My primary background is classical, but I'm not so out of touch that I haven't noticed that most female pop singers nowadays sing way down in the low range. Most contemporary songs must be written that way, so what is the standard style for piano accompaniment for such songs? Do they tend harmonize above the
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
Dear Mark, I am replying before reading the replies of others because this is an issue near and dear to me. I agree completely that transposing accompaniments more than a step or two can change them substantially, and that the very least one can do to repair the damage is to re-voice the chords. But there is a larger issue that goes beyond that, and that is that the accompaniments of many of these things are abominable. This is an area where a highly developed tradition of performance practice so far outstrips the written score that, to my way of hearing things, the scores are useless without major modification. I know your question is probably more limited in scope than the one I am addressing, but I think many of these things need re-arranging in light of good (not necessarily complicated) 20th Century performance practice. Stephen Foster wrote (in the 19th Century) simple piano accompaniments that were both easily playable and good, but song publishers in the 20th Century published things just to get them out the door in a fashion that they believed would be minimally playable by amateur pianists. (Cole Porter songs sometimes have good harmony but awful piano arrangements.) Even the ukulele/guitar chord symbols often ignore good, or even acceptable bass notes. And although Puccini made a career of doubling the melody in the orchestra, I don't think it helps in most piano accompaniments. I guess I am trying to make a case for doing more, and better, work than what you are being asked to do. When I am approached to do things like that, I suggest doing an arrangement and either get paid for it or lose the job. My 2c. Chuck On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:05 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: This isn't a specific question so much as my general interest in others' experience with the same phenomenon. I work with singers a lot, and from time to time I'm asked to type up a transposed copy of a song that the singer wants to sing in a different key, for an audition, recital or whatever. In theory, my task is to just copy the original exactly as is, then let Finale magically change it to another key and we're good to go. But sometimes it's not that simple. Very often, the song is one from the early musical theater era -- say, Rodgers Hammerstein or thereabouts -- and the singer is a belty mezzo. The style in those days was to write women singers higher than most women are used to singing today, and even the lower songs are generally in the middle soprano range. Since the belty mezzo is happiest from about G to G on either side of middle C, she typically wants the song transposed down a third or even a fourth. This feels perfectly natural to her, since that's where most female pop and jazz singers sing nowadays, and it's very likely where she's heard that very song recorded by some pop star. So far, so good. I'm not a purist, and I have no problem with transposing to whatever key the singer likes. I am, however, a pragmatist, and what troubles me is what happens to the piano accompanist. A typical accompaniment style for a song of this era is for the right-hand to double the melody with chords harmonizing downward from that. That means that even in the original key the right hand was going into the ledger lines below middle C. After the song is transposed so that the melody frequently dips below middle C, those chords become practically unreadable. What do you do about that? If I see myself as merely a scribe, I can just let it plummet down into the ledger lines and tell the singer, Hey, that's what you asked for; it's not my fault you're transposing too low. But of course I'm more involved than that. As often as not the singer is a colleague, and even if she isn't, I still don't want to give her something unworkable. I don't think there's anything wrong with a singer wanting to transpose down, but I hate to give an ugly, hard-to-read score to the pianist. If it's an audition situation where the pianist is sight-reading, he or she might fumble over a hard-to-read score, making things that much more difficult for the singer, and the audition becomes a disaster. I guess there's two parts to my question: (1) As an engraver, how do you typically go about making the transposition more readable? Do you cross-staff the lower RH notes into the bass clef? or maybe cross staff the whole part down? or maybe you switch the RH to a bass clef for extended passages? (2) Suppose the singer is going to sing the transposed piece in recital, and you're involved. How do you feel about the pianist simply playing the original accompaniment pushed down a fourth? Does it really sound good down there? If not, what do you do about it? Do you revoice some of the chords so that they sound better. Do you move unusually low sections up an octave? Surely I'm not the only one who has
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
At 1:05 AM -0800 2/12/07, Mark D Lew wrote: I work with singers a lot, and from time to time I'm asked to type up a transposed copy of a song that the singer wants to sing in a different key, for an audition, recital or whatever. In theory, my task is to just copy the original exactly as is, then let Finale magically change it to another key and we're good to go. But sometimes it's not that simple. This is such a great bunch of questions that I'm going to send in my reply BEFORE reading what the rest of you have to say. Mark, I suggest stepping back from the purely mechanical please transpose this down for me, and looking at the overall picture. Very often, the song is one from the early musical theater era -- say, Rodgers Hammerstein or thereabouts -- and the singer is a belty mezzo. The style in those days was to write women singers higher than most women are used to singing today, and even the lower songs are generally in the middle soprano range. Since the belty mezzo is happiest from about G to G on either side of middle C, she typically wants the song transposed down a third or even a fourth. OK, fact: The Golden Age musical theater composers (i.e. before mics were introduced) knew EXACTLY where to pitch their songs so they would carry clearly in a house the size of the typical Broadway theater. And the majority of female singers used chest voice to generate the energy needed by pushing it up higher in their ranges than it should properly have been used. And when singers auditioned, that's what the composers and producers were listening for. In the case of Rodgers and Hammerstein, their leading ladies were virtually all belters, while they cast real sopranos in second lead roles where it was all right to sound pretty. But in general classical terms like soprano and mezzo don't apply to the musical theater of that era, and imply things that aren't present. Second fact: When stage musicals were turned into movie musicals, virtually all of the belt songs were, in fact, transposed down a 3rd, 4th, or 5th so they would sound effective not in a theater but in the intimacy of a recording studio. That's one reason, among many, why the originator of a role may not have been chosen to play that role in the movie, Julie Andrews being an exception. In fact, even for a classical singer, a transposition of as little as a half step, either up OR down, can make an enormous different for that singer on that song, having nothing to do with range but rather where the phrases fit in that particular voice. This feels perfectly natural to her, since that's where most female pop and jazz singers sing nowadays, and it's very likely where she's heard that very song recorded by some pop star. A dangerous generalization, as is lumping female pop and jazz singers into one group when every voice is different. Barbra Streisand knew her range and her good notes cold, and never attempted to sing higher than her best sound. Celine Dion the same, and her arrangers and songwriters had to fit the songs to her voice. So far, so good. I'm not a purist, and I have no problem with transposing to whatever key the singer likes. I am, however, a pragmatist, and what troubles me is what happens to the piano accompanist. A typical accompaniment style for a song of this era is for the right-hand to double the melody with chords harmonizing downward from that. That means that even in the original key the right hand was going into the ledger lines below middle C. After the song is transposed so that the melody frequently dips below middle C, those chords become practically unreadable. OK, you've done a good job articulating the problem, but I'd suggest stepping back, again, and looking at the big picture. The accompaniment exists to frame and support the singer, right? Therefore anything that makes the accompaniment sound bad makes the singer sound bad, right? Therefore, the accompaniment has to be adjusted, rearranged, or recomposed to be effective in the lower key, right? That's the answer to your question! The sheet music accompaniments you describe, doubling the melody in the right hand, are something that a competent accompanist would never really be caught dead playing, at least if any jazz stylization is involved. Rodgers and the other composers of his era didn't intend their songs to be sung to the piano, but to the orchestra in a Broadway pit, with the piano providing nothing but a framework including the harmony and elements of the style. That's why they considered the guitar or banjo or ukulele boxes adequate as substitute accompaniments. I emphasize to my vocal arranging students that whether they are transcribing, transposing, or whatever, there's always a point at which you have to forget the mechanics and start arranging. So, as you've discovered, mechanically moving the written accompaniment, which was written to
[Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
Hi All: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. Is there a Sibelius group like this one? You may answer privately if you choose. Thanks: Bob F. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
Bob Florence wrote: Hi All: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. Is there a Sibelius group like this one? Like this one? No! But there is a Sibelius group at Yahoo. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. rules no, hearts yes. sigh. official list: http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?groupid=3guest=1 http://www.sibeliusforum.com/forums/faq.php some of the official dudes are apparently also on this list: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sibelius-list/ send us a postcard. -- shirling neueweise ... new music publishers mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
Barbara Touburg wrote: Bob Florence wrote: Hi All: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. Is there a Sibelius group like this one? Like this one? No! But there is a Sibelius group at Yahoo. That's the only way it's different -- . Well there's another way, and that there's a rather high-up Sibelius official in the company who maintains a presence on the list, passing complaints and requests to the development team, giving specific contact information for whom to reach in the Sibelius corporation for specific problems. His name is Daniel Spreadbury, and he knows the Sibelius program inside and out and provides terrific and continual on-list tech-support. But the rest, there are the usual gripes about why does the program make us have to do it this way, why can't we do it *that* way and I know the program can't do thus-and-so, does anybody have a workaround? And the occasional arguments over musical styles, how best to do something, the typical conversations we have on the Finale list. And the perpetual how do you do this question with the why in the world would you want to do that answers. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
dhbailey wrote: Barbara Touburg wrote: Bob Florence wrote: Hi All: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. Is there a Sibelius group like this one? Like this one? No! But there is a Sibelius group at Yahoo. That's the only way it's different -- . No: the occasional Christmas arrangements spring to mind. There are a number of arrangere there who write lovely music and share it. Remember A.D.? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
dhbailey wrote: Barbara Touburg wrote: Bob Florence wrote: Hi All: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. Is there a Sibelius group like this one? Like this one? No! But there is a Sibelius group at Yahoo. That's the only way it's different -- . No: the occasional Christmas arrangements spring to mind. There are a number of arrangere there who write lovely music and share it. Rememner A.D.? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
Barbara Touburg wrote: dhbailey wrote: Barbara Touburg wrote: Bob Florence wrote: Hi All: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. Is there a Sibelius group like this one? Like this one? No! But there is a Sibelius group at Yahoo. That's the only way it's different -- . No: the occasional Christmas arrangements spring to mind. There are a number of arrangere there who write lovely music and share it. Remember A.D.? Yes, there is at least one illustrious composer/arranger on that group, just as we have some on this list. I never participate in those Christmas arrangements but some of them are very beautiful and others are very humorous. And then there was the Heat Death of the Universe for solo contrabass clarinet. you're absolutely right, that group is very different from this one. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
Hi David- I've been following this thread since the start- and for what it's worthy, my solution would be melody - possibly a bass line, and chords. However my interest leapt when I saw your comment re Botschaft. Black notes versus white notes. Piano fingering would be in total chaos! I worked regularly with a choir-leader who always asked for arrgts for band and choir in F#, or Db, or B. I nodded, then did them in F, C and Bb. In 12 years (about 30 arrgt's) she never noticed. Disregarding the aspect of tonality of keys (waiting for flame here!)- I cannot accept that any vocalist can sing something in -say B major, but not in C or Bb. Unless, of course, the song has absolute extremes of register- in which case it really isn't the best choice of song. My 2c - (although we don't use cents anymore)! Cheers K in OZ Keith Helgesen. Ph: (02) 62910787. Mob 0417-042171 -Original Message- David W. Fenton While at conservatory I accompanied many singers on Brahms's Botschaft. I'd learned the accompaniment (which is one of his harder ones -- talk about balance problems!) for a baritone, and then was asked to play it for a soprano. I don't remember which direction the problem went, but one was on the black keys and the other on the white keys. So, I had to completely relearn the piece as practically none of the fingerings I'd learned the first time around worked in the new key. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
Nooo, say it ain't so Bob! Bob Florence wrote: Hi All: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. Is there a Sibelius group like this one? You may answer privately if you choose. Thanks: Bob F. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
shirling neueweise wrote: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. rules no, hearts yes. sigh. official list: http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?groupid=3guest=1 http://www.sibeliusforum.com/forums/faq.php some of the official dudes are apparently also on this list: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sibelius-list/ send us a postcard. I'm not leaving finale. BF ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius music group: very off topick
Eric Dannewitz wrote: Nooo, say it ain't so Bob! I'm not leaving. BF Bob Florence wrote: Hi All: I trust that I am not breaking any rules with this question. Is there a Sibelius group like this one? You may answer privately if you choose. Thanks: Bob F. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
Thanks to all for a wonderful discussion. Most of what has been said aligns with what I've found, too, but it's been helpful to have my own experiences confirmed by others and expanded upon. I agree with almost everything said, even in cases where there seem to be contradictory views -- for I think we all recognize that this is a situation inherent in contradiction. We're all familiar with the disjuncts between how it was originally intended vs what it has become, how it ought to be vs how it really is, what I would ideally like to do about it vs what I'm actually going to do given my time and budget. For my immediate job I'm going to go ahead and do a straight transposition, and I'll do the necessary cross-staffing and clef- changing to make it reasonable for the pianist. In this particular case I happen to have another problem which I didn't even bring up: what happens if the singer wants it in a key that the piano part resists? It turns out that my singer's favored key is Db major, which would be all right except that there's a couple of chromatics that become Bbb and, worse, the bridge modulates to what would be Gb minor which becomes a nightmare of accidentals Having tested both, I'm going to write that section as F# minor. The switch from flats to sharps and back again offends both my sense of aesthetics and of theory, but the reality is that it's much much more readable that way. On the general question, of course I know that most published accompaniments leave much to be desired. I've occasionally gone the whole way and written a real accompaniment, which can be very satisfying, but I'm certainly not going to do that all the time. This reminds me of another observation about accompaniments. Several on this thread have commented that the ideal accompaniment will vary depending on the voice, the key, etc. I've found that the idea accompaniment even depends, much more than I would have expected, on the lyrics. Of the accompaniments I've written over the years, the one that has achieved some circulation outside my local circle is one for Danny Boy. (I originally wrote it for myself and later self- published it.) This melody has a couple of lyrics that are reasonably standard, plus plenty more that aren't. One singer contacted me and asked me to provide a copy with a completely different set of lyrics of his own devising, and I obliged. There was nothing wrong with his lyrics per se, but when I put them to my accompaniment and played through it, I didn't like the match at all. I wasn't conscious of it at the time, but when I wrote my accompaniment I instinctively shaped it to the meaning of the words being sung. When applied to a new set of words, which may have had a similar message on the whole but with lots of different emphases along the way, it was not nearly as effective. But did I write a new accompaniment for him to go with his words? Nope. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] O.T. Touch Screen technology: possible implications for Finale?
http://ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_hanflashEnabled=1 A friend of mine has attended some of the TED conferences, and mentioned this particularly interesting development. Of course, the implications for computer software development are fascinating, but I think in particular for Finale users. Of course, the first use of this technology will be the iPhone btw, but that's nothing compared to what you'll see in this movie. Enjoy the preview ;) Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
On Feb 12, 2007, at 3:27 AM, Cecil Rigby wrote: Since Mark admits to not being a purist the following comments are not intended for him personally--- but I'll answer anyway WHY do people insist on singing something outside their range in auditions?!^#! I'd much rather hear, and can much better judge, a singer who sings in their range as well as they can. And I admit wanting to hear them do standards as much as possible- otherwise it's comparing apples and oranges between singers vying for the same seat. Four altos who audition with music meant for an alto are more likely to get a fair judging than four who sing pieces outside their ranges, I think. I've got some experience on both sides of the audition process -- both as a coach helping singers choose and prepare songs, and as one of the faces on the other side of the table giving advice on putting together a cast for a show -- so I'd like to try to answer your question. But I'm honestly not sure what you mean by singing something outside their range. Do you mean a singer whose comfortable vocal range is X picks a song that lies Y and she attempts to sing it anyway and therefore sounds like crap because she's really an X? Or do you mean a singer whose range is X but rather than finding a song that was written for X instead picks a song that was originally written as Y and transposes it down to X so that she can sing it? If you mean the former, then the main answer is that I basically agree with you: I think any singer who auditions with something outside of her preferred range is asking for trouble, and I would never advise it. The partial exception is if her voice is an X but she's aiming for a part that she knows requires singing Y. If it's too far a stretch, she's just not going to make it, so she should give up on the part. But if she's good, or it's only somewhat outside of her comfort zone, it's a reasonable aspiration. In that case, simply singing plain X in the audition isn't going to convince the panel, because they will rightly wonder, Yeah, but can she sing Y? and they aren't going to cast her in the Y role if she can't prove her ability there. If you mean the latter, then there's lots of reasons to sing a transposed in audition. For starters, accept that for whatever reason - to avoid their own personal boredom, I suspect -- many audition panels will specifically ask auditionees NOT to audition with a song from the show. Even if they don't, as a singer you always want to sing what you know best and have well prepared, so you can't expect to always be able to sing a song from the show anyway. So the singer is not singing the actual piece from the show, but she does need to pick something sufficiently similar in style and range and character so that that panel will see her in the part. Combine that with the need to pick a song that the singers knows and does well, and it's not always an easy match to make. If I have a song candidate which is a good fit in every way except that it was originally written in a different key, I'll go with that candidate and transpose it to where I need for this audition. (Note that I am NOT advising singing in a range that differs from the role you want or from your favored range; I AM advising that you might take a song and MOVE it to the range which matches both your favored range and that of the part you want (which ought to be the same).) Add to all this that not everyone is a professional singer. The savvy professional has done her homework and built up a solid audition repertoire. She knows the standard roles she'll be going for, she knows the songs that are best suited to them, and she's already learned a good and varied collection of them so as to be prepared for any occasion. We're not talking about her. There's a whole world of amateurs out there doing amateur musical theater. At least half the singers at any audition really aren't trying for any solo role at all; she just wants a spot in the ensemble and maybe one little solo bit from the chorus somewhere. But she's still got to sing something. Her voice is what it is, and my job as coach is to find something she can sing that will show it off reasonably well, possibly with a short preparation time. My first thought is to find out what songs she already knows. My priority list for any singer is: #1, a song that you already know dead cold, and #2, it's a song that you connect with and love enough that you're happy to sing it over and over. Everything else -- whether it's the right song for your voice, whether it's a good match for the show you're auditioning for, how well it reduces to 16 or 32 bars, etc -- those are all important, but they pale next to #1 and #2. The difference between someone singing the song that she loves and has been singing since she was 12, and singing
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
On Feb 12, 2007, at 10:53 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: Thanks to all for a wonderful discussion. Yes, I read it with interest, since I do a lot of this kind of thing, too. In this particular case I happen to have another problem which I didn't even bring up: what happens if the singer wants it in a key that the piano part resists? It turns out that my singer's favored key is Db major, which would be all right except that there's a couple of chromatics that become Bbb and, worse, the bridge modulates to what would be Gb minor which becomes a nightmare of accidentals Having tested both, I'm going to write that section as F# minor. The switch from flats to sharps and back again offends both my sense of aesthetics and of theory, but the reality is that it's much much more readable that way. I wouldn't worry too much about this. It became common to wrap keys (to use Finale's term!) in the late 19th and 20th centuries when things got too hairy. As long as you are consistent within the phrase, it should be perfectly clear. I happened to learn the original sheet music to Body and Soul, in C (starts on a Dm7, contrary to all the jazzers who insist that the original key is Db, starting on Ebm7!) and modulates to Db in the bridge (key of b2, related to the parallel phrygian of C for those who care.) Yet when most musicians read the usual key starting in Db, it modulates to D in the bridge, even though the theoretically correct key is Ebb. I don't think anyone insists overly much on the correct key in that instance! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: transposing standards downward
Mark wanted to know. But I'm honestly not sure what you mean by singing something outside their range. Do you mean a singer whose comfortable vocal range is X picks a song that lies Y and she attempts to sing it anyway and therefore sounds like crap because she's really an X? Or do you mean a singer whose range is X but rather than finding a song that was written for X instead picks a song that was originally written as Y and transposes it down to X so that she can sing it? ---I did mean the former... Thanks for a well-thought out response- I see you points clearly and think I can get past my misgivings much easier in the future- -Cecil rigrax at earthlink.net ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
