Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki
Thanks Jim ... I was just making a general statement that at first (and second, and third) glance, the K2 window appears confusing to me. Kind of like looking into the cockpit of a modern jet aircraft ... or under the hood of my new hybrid. What in the devil are all those things for? I agree that checking out the PDF does in fact answer many questions. However, if I do run into some editing which I can't figure out with the PDF, I shall definitely give you a call, as it were. Many thanks, Dean On Aug 28, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Williams, Jim wrote: Dean (and others), You are aware that there is a PDF manual that addresses SOME aspects of the K2 Player. Having said that, there is much that is not addressed. Dean, what type of edits would you like to make? Perhaps I can help. Jim W. From: Dean M. Estabrook Sent: Tue 28-Aug-07 18:57 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki And, may I make so bold as to aver, that to me at least, once you access the K2 player and wish to edit, it does not seem particularly intuitive. But that just may be my oafishness at things technical. Dean On Aug 28, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Williams, Jim wrote: Chuck... Your embarassment doesn't mask the fact that the NI updating system is--shall we say--generally inefficient. ;-) At least, I wish they'd number things properly so one knows whether or not one has the latest library update. Jim From: Chuck Israels Sent: Tue 28-Aug-07 17:34 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki Anybody remember this thread? Dumb me - it's always the same kind of thing. What was in one place gets moved to a new place when you do an update/upgrade, and then I can't find it and think things are broken that aren't! So - to explain, and to help other obtuse folks like me: after updating to the new Kontakt 2 player, you will find a new listing in the Audio Units Setup menu called "Kontakt 2 Player" and that is where the new samples are accessed. Attempting to load samples from the old JABB or GPO places will result in the error message I described earlier. Why don't the old listings disappear with the update? Can I get rid of them? I can't use them anymore, and they are simply clutter. If I had designed this, I'd have had the new selection drop down menu take the place of the old instead of just appearing below them, where it took me weeks to look. Bad design makes me feel stupid when I don't see something and don't think to look beyond where it used to be. Of course, I only just discovered this after leaving phone messages for Gary and Tom Hopkins for which I am now embarrassed. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in aBaroqueScore]
Well, alright! I feel I'm in good company.
Thanks,
Dean
On Aug 28, 2007, at 4:51 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, I suspect your emphasis on "selah" is in line with some of
Charpentier's melismae on the names of the Hebrew letters in his
Leçons de
Ténèbres.
Hey Aaron, thanks for the words of wisdom. When I wrote the piece, I
should, perhaps, have accessed the knowledge on this forum, rather
than my Random House Unabridged, which offered the following
definition:
"An expression occurring frequently in the Psalms, thought to be a
liturgical or musical direction, probably a direction by the leader
to raise the voice [this meaning would be perfectly relevant in my
particular setting] or perhaps an indication of a pause [this would
be less relevant, but justifiable]."
Since the piece is already composed, paid for and performed, I think
I shall not change it, and just rely on the "ultimately unknown"
clause to justify it's use (Other than the fact that it does indeed
appear in my Bible's version of Psalm 84 (How lovely is Thy .).
Thanks again,
Dean
On Aug 28, 2007, at 1:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually the meaning of "Selah" is quite controversial and
ultimately
unkonwn. Some interpret it as meaning "the end of the road" (i.e.,
the end
of a section), and some say that it refers to a changing of
choirs in
polychoral antiphony. Commands to sing in Hebrew include
"shiru" (can
refer to poetry without music) and "zamru." "Nagnu" can refer to
playing
an instrument with no words in attendance. I'm sure there are
others, but
I've never heard "selah" in this context. (One of the psalms states
"v'nomar l'fanav shira chadasha"--"And let us say before Him new
song"
[sic].) Note that "klezmer" is a yiddish smooshing of "k'lay
zemer," the
Hebrew term referring to musical instruments as "vessels of song."
Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
Speaking of Biblical texts and such , I recently set some of
Psalm 84
to music, and encountered the word "Selah." As it happened, it
assumed a rather prominent place in the setting, so upon looking it
up in the dictionary, I came to understand its meaning as a command
(this may be too strong a word) to sing. Ergo, I used it in that
context. later, I read some other place that the meaning was
something else. Any of you Psalm experts may weigh in please.
Thanks,
Dean
On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
John Howell wrote:
Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were
actually
used, and what they actually meant in different situations,
because
they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old
Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the
(presumably Hebrew) word for "Psalms" was attached as its title
from
the beginning?
I haven't been keeping up with the List lately, so I've missed
most
of this discussion. My apologies if this has already been covered.
Neither of the Hebrew words used for the psalms ("mizmor" and
"tehillim") suggest stringed instruments. Both were varieties of
songs. It appears that the use of "psalm" in Greek translation was
meant in the secondary sense of just a song, without regard to
accompaniment. But as always with such things, exact meanings are
subject to debate by historians. Brief discussion here: http://
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=574&letter=P. Better
googling will probably turn up more.
As for King David's instruments, the one translated "harp" is a
"kinnor" in the original, and the one translated "psaltery" is a
"nevel". Both kinnor and nevel are reasonably well-known. Google
turns up a page for a modern manufacturer, presumably an
attempt at
historical reconstruction.
I would venture to guess that the Greek translators noticed the
stringed instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to
attach their word "psalm" to the songs, even though the Hebrew
label made no such implication.
mdl
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http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home
Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?
___
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___
Finale mailing list
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http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home
Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?
___
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___
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Why do they sterilize the needle f
Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki
Dear Darcy, How many times you have helped me to feel not so thick headed about things like this! (When I know that, in some ways and, in spite of a not completely unintuitive grasp of the way computer things can seem to work, I am still ages behind most of my students in controlling them.) Anyway, I will look for a 2006 document and see what happens. And I will not rescind my messages to Gary and Tom, so I can at least let them know how clumsy this stuff feels. I do find the process of loading instruments to be simpler and quicker in the updated player. If I understand it right, the instruments simply go into successive "slots" without having to choose the slot. I have yet to try changing the slot position of a loaded instrument and wonder if that's going to present problems. Of course, I guess one could re-assign the staff to another slot (channel) that already contains the desired instrument, if a problem should arise. I'm just beginning to use this on a 3 instrument score, so my experience (and success) is limited. Chuck On Aug 28, 2007, at 4:08 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hey Chuck, I would not feel embarrassed at all. IMO, there is no excuse for software this confusing. Tom and Gary unfortunately seem to feel that if people can figure it out *eventually*, there is no reason to make things transparent from the get-go. Obviously you and I disagree, and if you can use your leverage to draw attention to the serious shortcomings in the user interface, so much the better. As to your specific questions -- my understanding is that the old AU Setup listing is there to (theoretically, at least) preserve compatibility of older files. Finale 2006 cannot use the Kontakt 2 player, so any files configured for GPO playback in Finale 2006 will need to use the older library. In practice, though, since the Garritan installer replaces the Kontakt 1 libraries, this doesn't work. After applying the Kontakt 2 Player update, any Fin2006 files you may have will need to be opened in Fin2007 or Fin2008 and re-configured manually for Garritan playback. Needless to say, this is a bit of a pain. That said, my behavior doesn't match yours. When I open Finale 2006 and go to the Native Instruments AU Setup dialog box, nothing shows up. In Fin2007-2008, my only choice is KontaktPlayer2. I don't know what accounts for this difference, but perhaps it is a blessing in disguise. Why don't you try opening a Fin2006 document configured for GPO playback and see if it still works? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 28 Aug 2007, at 5:34 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Anybody remember this thread? Dumb me - it's always the same kind of thing. What was in one place gets moved to a new place when you do an update/upgrade, and then I can't find it and think things are broken that aren't! So - to explain, and to help other obtuse folks like me: after updating to the new Kontakt 2 player, you will find a new listing in the Audio Units Setup menu called "Kontakt 2 Player" and that is where the new samples are accessed. Attempting to load samples from the old JABB or GPO places will result in the error message I described earlier. Why don't the old listings disappear with the update? Can I get rid of them? I can't use them anymore, and they are simply clutter. If I had designed this, I'd have had the new selection drop down menu take the place of the old instead of just appearing below them, where it took me weeks to look. Bad design makes me feel stupid when I don't see something and don't think to look beyond where it used to be. Of course, I only just discovered this after leaving phone messages for Gary and Tom Hopkins for which I am now embarrassed. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in aBaroqueScore]
Well, I suspect your emphasis on "selah" is in line with some of
Charpentier's melismae on the names of the Hebrew letters in his Leçons de
Ténèbres.
> Hey Aaron, thanks for the words of wisdom. When I wrote the piece, I
> should, perhaps, have accessed the knowledge on this forum, rather
> than my Random House Unabridged, which offered the following definition:
>
> "An expression occurring frequently in the Psalms, thought to be a
> liturgical or musical direction, probably a direction by the leader
> to raise the voice [this meaning would be perfectly relevant in my
> particular setting] or perhaps an indication of a pause [this would
> be less relevant, but justifiable]."
>
> Since the piece is already composed, paid for and performed, I think
> I shall not change it, and just rely on the "ultimately unknown"
> clause to justify it's use (Other than the fact that it does indeed
> appear in my Bible's version of Psalm 84 (How lovely is Thy .).
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Dean
>
> On Aug 28, 2007, at 1:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Actually the meaning of "Selah" is quite controversial and ultimately
>> unkonwn. Some interpret it as meaning "the end of the road" (i.e.,
>> the end
>> of a section), and some say that it refers to a changing of choirs in
>> polychoral antiphony. Commands to sing in Hebrew include "shiru" (can
>> refer to poetry without music) and "zamru." "Nagnu" can refer to
>> playing
>> an instrument with no words in attendance. I'm sure there are
>> others, but
>> I've never heard "selah" in this context. (One of the psalms states
>> "v'nomar l'fanav shira chadasha"--"And let us say before Him new song"
>> [sic].) Note that "klezmer" is a yiddish smooshing of "k'lay
>> zemer," the
>> Hebrew term referring to musical instruments as "vessels of song."
>>
>>
>>
>> Aaron J. Rabushka
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
>>
>>> Speaking of Biblical texts and such , I recently set some of Psalm 84
>>> to music, and encountered the word "Selah." As it happened, it
>>> assumed a rather prominent place in the setting, so upon looking it
>>> up in the dictionary, I came to understand its meaning as a command
>>> (this may be too strong a word) to sing. Ergo, I used it in that
>>> context. later, I read some other place that the meaning was
>>> something else. Any of you Psalm experts may weigh in please.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Dean
>>>
>>> On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
>>>
John Howell wrote:
> Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were
> actually
> used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because
> they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old
> Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the
> (presumably Hebrew) word for "Psalms" was attached as its title
> from
> the beginning?
I haven't been keeping up with the List lately, so I've missed most
of this discussion. My apologies if this has already been covered.
Neither of the Hebrew words used for the psalms ("mizmor" and
"tehillim") suggest stringed instruments. Both were varieties of
songs. It appears that the use of "psalm" in Greek translation was
meant in the secondary sense of just a song, without regard to
accompaniment. But as always with such things, exact meanings are
subject to debate by historians. Brief discussion here: http://
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=574&letter=P. Better
googling will probably turn up more.
As for King David's instruments, the one translated "harp" is a
"kinnor" in the original, and the one translated "psaltery" is a
"nevel". Both kinnor and nevel are reasonably well-known. Google
turns up a page for a modern manufacturer, presumably an attempt at
historical reconstruction.
I would venture to guess that the Greek translators noticed the
stringed instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to
attach their word "psalm" to the songs, even though the Hebrew
label made no such implication.
mdl
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>>
>>> Dean M. Estabrook
>>> http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home
>>>
>>> Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Finale mailing list
>>> Finale@shsu.edu
>>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
> Dean M. Estabrook
> http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home
>
> Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.e
Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki
Hey Chuck, I would not feel embarrassed at all. IMO, there is no excuse for software this confusing. Tom and Gary unfortunately seem to feel that if people can figure it out *eventually*, there is no reason to make things transparent from the get-go. Obviously you and I disagree, and if you can use your leverage to draw attention to the serious shortcomings in the user interface, so much the better. As to your specific questions -- my understanding is that the old AU Setup listing is there to (theoretically, at least) preserve compatibility of older files. Finale 2006 cannot use the Kontakt 2 player, so any files configured for GPO playback in Finale 2006 will need to use the older library. In practice, though, since the Garritan installer replaces the Kontakt 1 libraries, this doesn't work. After applying the Kontakt 2 Player update, any Fin2006 files you may have will need to be opened in Fin2007 or Fin2008 and re-configured manually for Garritan playback. Needless to say, this is a bit of a pain. That said, my behavior doesn't match yours. When I open Finale 2006 and go to the Native Instruments AU Setup dialog box, nothing shows up. In Fin2007-2008, my only choice is KontaktPlayer2. I don't know what accounts for this difference, but perhaps it is a blessing in disguise. Why don't you try opening a Fin2006 document configured for GPO playback and see if it still works? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 28 Aug 2007, at 5:34 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Anybody remember this thread? Dumb me - it's always the same kind of thing. What was in one place gets moved to a new place when you do an update/upgrade, and then I can't find it and think things are broken that aren't! So - to explain, and to help other obtuse folks like me: after updating to the new Kontakt 2 player, you will find a new listing in the Audio Units Setup menu called "Kontakt 2 Player" and that is where the new samples are accessed. Attempting to load samples from the old JABB or GPO places will result in the error message I described earlier. Why don't the old listings disappear with the update? Can I get rid of them? I can't use them anymore, and they are simply clutter. If I had designed this, I'd have had the new selection drop down menu take the place of the old instead of just appearing below them, where it took me weeks to look. Bad design makes me feel stupid when I don't see something and don't think to look beyond where it used to be. Of course, I only just discovered this after leaving phone messages for Gary and Tom Hopkins for which I am now embarrassed. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki
Dean (and others), You are aware that there is a PDF manual that addresses SOME aspects of the K2 Player. Having said that, there is much that is not addressed. Dean, what type of edits would you like to make? Perhaps I can help. Jim W. From: Dean M. Estabrook Sent: Tue 28-Aug-07 18:57 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki And, may I make so bold as to aver, that to me at least, once you access the K2 player and wish to edit, it does not seem particularly intuitive. But that just may be my oafishness at things technical. Dean On Aug 28, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Williams, Jim wrote: Chuck... Your embarassment doesn't mask the fact that the NI updating system is--shall we say--generally inefficient. ;-) At least, I wish they'd number things properly so one knows whether or not one has the latest library update. Jim From: Chuck Israels Sent: Tue 28-Aug-07 17:34 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki Anybody remember this thread? Dumb me - it's always the same kind of thing. What was in one place gets moved to a new place when you do an update/upgrade, and then I can't find it and think things are broken that aren't! So - to explain, and to help other obtuse folks like me: after updating to the new Kontakt 2 player, you will find a new listing in the Audio Units Setup menu called "Kontakt 2 Player" and that is where the new samples are accessed. Attempting to load samples from the old JABB or GPO places will result in the error message I described earlier. Why don't the old listings disappear with the update? Can I get rid of them? I can't use them anymore, and they are simply clutter. If I had designed this, I'd have had the new selection drop down menu take the place of the old instead of just appearing below them, where it took me weeks to look. Bad design makes me feel stupid when I don't see something and don't think to look beyond where it used to be. Of course, I only just discovered this after leaving phone messages for Gary and Tom Hopkins for which I am now embarrassed. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki
And, may I make so bold as to aver, that to me at least, once you access the K2 player and wish to edit, it does not seem particularly intuitive. But that just may be my oafishness at things technical. Dean On Aug 28, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Williams, Jim wrote: Chuck... Your embarassment doesn't mask the fact that the NI updating system is--shall we say--generally inefficient. ;-) At least, I wish they'd number things properly so one knows whether or not one has the latest library update. Jim From: Chuck Israels Sent: Tue 28-Aug-07 17:34 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki Anybody remember this thread? Dumb me - it's always the same kind of thing. What was in one place gets moved to a new place when you do an update/upgrade, and then I can't find it and think things are broken that aren't! So - to explain, and to help other obtuse folks like me: after updating to the new Kontakt 2 player, you will find a new listing in the Audio Units Setup menu called "Kontakt 2 Player" and that is where the new samples are accessed. Attempting to load samples from the old JABB or GPO places will result in the error message I described earlier. Why don't the old listings disappear with the update? Can I get rid of them? I can't use them anymore, and they are simply clutter. If I had designed this, I'd have had the new selection drop down menu take the place of the old instead of just appearing below them, where it took me weeks to look. Bad design makes me feel stupid when I don't see something and don't think to look beyond where it used to be. Of course, I only just discovered this after leaving phone messages for Gary and Tom Hopkins for which I am now embarrassed. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a BaroqueScore]
Kenneth? Tenor Sax/Clarinet Canberra Kenneth? If so, please contact me off list. Cheers K Keith Helgesen. Ph: (02) 62910787. Mob 0417-042171 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenneth Kuhlmann Sent: Tuesday, 28 August 2007 4:36 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a BaroqueScore] Kim Patrick Clow wrote: [re a greek word in a baroque score] > What does the Greek symbol and word mean? > Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > > Looks like psi, with the full word reading psalmos (psalm). > Exactly so! But consideration of the meaning of 'psalmos' has long pricked my musicolgical curiosity. Perhaps some members of this list, more informed of liturgical practice than me, can satisfy it. I should explain that in its full sense 'psalmos' does not specifically denote a biblical text or the musical setting of the same; but more generally denotes a mode of musical performance; and when applied to text referred to a text which was to be sung; and sung most specifically with the accompaniment of a harp. My classical greek lexicon explains 'psalmos' in these terms 1.a pulling or twanging of musical strings with the fingers; 2.a strain or burst of music; later meaning, a song sung to a stringed instrument; a psalm. A closely related word is 'psalma' meaning explicitly a tune played on a stringed instrument. Another relative is 'psalter' meaning a harp player These words derive from a verb 'psallo' meaning, iner alia, to pull and let go again, to pull, twang with the fingers; to play a stringed instrument with the fingers instead of with the plectrum; later meaning, to sing to a harp. The liturgical tradition with which I am familiar does not include the use of the harp; but, faced with this lexical evidence, I think I am entitled to conclude that the depiction of angels playing harps is not merely a charming painter's whim but a clear reference to an ancient tradition of liturgical practice. Assuming the harp did have its place in liturgy, I am curious as to a) whether there are any extant religious traditions (Christian or otherwise) in which the use of the harp remains an essential part of liturgical practice; and b) in the cases where it is no longer used, when and why did its use cease. Kenneth K ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in aBaroque Score]
Hey Aaron, thanks for the words of wisdom. When I wrote the piece, I
should, perhaps, have accessed the knowledge on this forum, rather
than my Random House Unabridged, which offered the following definition:
"An expression occurring frequently in the Psalms, thought to be a
liturgical or musical direction, probably a direction by the leader
to raise the voice [this meaning would be perfectly relevant in my
particular setting] or perhaps an indication of a pause [this would
be less relevant, but justifiable]."
Since the piece is already composed, paid for and performed, I think
I shall not change it, and just rely on the "ultimately unknown"
clause to justify it's use (Other than the fact that it does indeed
appear in my Bible's version of Psalm 84 (How lovely is Thy .).
Thanks again,
Dean
On Aug 28, 2007, at 1:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually the meaning of "Selah" is quite controversial and ultimately
unkonwn. Some interpret it as meaning "the end of the road" (i.e.,
the end
of a section), and some say that it refers to a changing of choirs in
polychoral antiphony. Commands to sing in Hebrew include "shiru" (can
refer to poetry without music) and "zamru." "Nagnu" can refer to
playing
an instrument with no words in attendance. I'm sure there are
others, but
I've never heard "selah" in this context. (One of the psalms states
"v'nomar l'fanav shira chadasha"--"And let us say before Him new song"
[sic].) Note that "klezmer" is a yiddish smooshing of "k'lay
zemer," the
Hebrew term referring to musical instruments as "vessels of song."
Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
Speaking of Biblical texts and such , I recently set some of Psalm 84
to music, and encountered the word "Selah." As it happened, it
assumed a rather prominent place in the setting, so upon looking it
up in the dictionary, I came to understand its meaning as a command
(this may be too strong a word) to sing. Ergo, I used it in that
context. later, I read some other place that the meaning was
something else. Any of you Psalm experts may weigh in please.
Thanks,
Dean
On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
John Howell wrote:
Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were
actually
used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because
they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old
Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the
(presumably Hebrew) word for "Psalms" was attached as its title
from
the beginning?
I haven't been keeping up with the List lately, so I've missed most
of this discussion. My apologies if this has already been covered.
Neither of the Hebrew words used for the psalms ("mizmor" and
"tehillim") suggest stringed instruments. Both were varieties of
songs. It appears that the use of "psalm" in Greek translation was
meant in the secondary sense of just a song, without regard to
accompaniment. But as always with such things, exact meanings are
subject to debate by historians. Brief discussion here: http://
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=574&letter=P. Better
googling will probably turn up more.
As for King David's instruments, the one translated "harp" is a
"kinnor" in the original, and the one translated "psaltery" is a
"nevel". Both kinnor and nevel are reasonably well-known. Google
turns up a page for a modern manufacturer, presumably an attempt at
historical reconstruction.
I would venture to guess that the Greek translators noticed the
stringed instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to
attach their word "psalm" to the songs, even though the Hebrew
label made no such implication.
mdl
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home
Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?
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Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?
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RE: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki
Chuck... Your embarassment doesn't mask the fact that the NI updating system is--shall we say--generally inefficient. ;-) At least, I wish they'd number things properly so one knows whether or not one has the latest library update. Jim From: Chuck Israels Sent: Tue 28-Aug-07 17:34 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki Anybody remember this thread? Dumb me - it's always the same kind of thing. What was in one place gets moved to a new place when you do an update/upgrade, and then I can't find it and think things are broken that aren't! So - to explain, and to help other obtuse folks like me: after updating to the new Kontakt 2 player, you will find a new listing in the Audio Units Setup menu called "Kontakt 2 Player" and that is where the new samples are accessed. Attempting to load samples from the old JABB or GPO places will result in the error message I described earlier. Why don't the old listings disappear with the update? Can I get rid of them? I can't use them anymore, and they are simply clutter. If I had designed this, I'd have had the new selection drop down menu take the place of the old instead of just appearing below them, where it took me weeks to look. Bad design makes me feel stupid when I don't see something and don't think to look beyond where it used to be. Of course, I only just discovered this after leaving phone messages for Gary and Tom Hopkins for which I am now embarrassed. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] JABB update for K2, Garritan Wiki
Anybody remember this thread? Dumb me - it's always the same kind of thing. What was in one place gets moved to a new place when you do an update/upgrade, and then I can't find it and think things are broken that aren't! So - to explain, and to help other obtuse folks like me: after updating to the new Kontakt 2 player, you will find a new listing in the Audio Units Setup menu called "Kontakt 2 Player" and that is where the new samples are accessed. Attempting to load samples from the old JABB or GPO places will result in the error message I described earlier. Why don't the old listings disappear with the update? Can I get rid of them? I can't use them anymore, and they are simply clutter. If I had designed this, I'd have had the new selection drop down menu take the place of the old instead of just appearing below them, where it took me weeks to look. Bad design makes me feel stupid when I don't see something and don't think to look beyond where it used to be. Of course, I only just discovered this after leaving phone messages for Gary and Tom Hopkins for which I am now embarrassed. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in aBaroque Score]
Actually the meaning of "Selah" is quite controversial and ultimately
unkonwn. Some interpret it as meaning "the end of the road" (i.e., the end
of a section), and some say that it refers to a changing of choirs in
polychoral antiphony. Commands to sing in Hebrew include "shiru" (can
refer to poetry without music) and "zamru." "Nagnu" can refer to playing
an instrument with no words in attendance. I'm sure there are others, but
I've never heard "selah" in this context. (One of the psalms states
"v'nomar l'fanav shira chadasha"--"And let us say before Him new song"
[sic].) Note that "klezmer" is a yiddish smooshing of "k'lay zemer," the
Hebrew term referring to musical instruments as "vessels of song."
Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
> Speaking of Biblical texts and such , I recently set some of Psalm 84
> to music, and encountered the word "Selah." As it happened, it
> assumed a rather prominent place in the setting, so upon looking it
> up in the dictionary, I came to understand its meaning as a command
> (this may be too strong a word) to sing. Ergo, I used it in that
> context. later, I read some other place that the meaning was
> something else. Any of you Psalm experts may weigh in please.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dean
>
> On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
>
>> John Howell wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were actually
>>> used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because
>>> they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old
>>> Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the
>>> (presumably Hebrew) word for "Psalms" was attached as its title from
>>> the beginning?
>>
>> I haven't been keeping up with the List lately, so I've missed most
>> of this discussion. My apologies if this has already been covered.
>>
>> Neither of the Hebrew words used for the psalms ("mizmor" and
>> "tehillim") suggest stringed instruments. Both were varieties of
>> songs. It appears that the use of "psalm" in Greek translation was
>> meant in the secondary sense of just a song, without regard to
>> accompaniment. But as always with such things, exact meanings are
>> subject to debate by historians. Brief discussion here: http://
>> www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=574&letter=P. Better
>> googling will probably turn up more.
>>
>> As for King David's instruments, the one translated "harp" is a
>> "kinnor" in the original, and the one translated "psaltery" is a
>> "nevel". Both kinnor and nevel are reasonably well-known. Google
>> turns up a page for a modern manufacturer, presumably an attempt at
>> historical reconstruction.
>>
>> I would venture to guess that the Greek translators noticed the
>> stringed instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to
>> attach their word "psalm" to the songs, even though the Hebrew
>> label made no such implication.
>>
>> mdl
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
> Dean M. Estabrook
> http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home
>
> Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
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Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
Speaking of Biblical texts and such , I recently set some of Psalm 84
to music, and encountered the word "Selah." As it happened, it
assumed a rather prominent place in the setting, so upon looking it
up in the dictionary, I came to understand its meaning as a command
(this may be too strong a word) to sing. Ergo, I used it in that
context. later, I read some other place that the meaning was
something else. Any of you Psalm experts may weigh in please.
Thanks,
Dean
On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
John Howell wrote:
Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were actually
used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because
they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old
Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the
(presumably Hebrew) word for "Psalms" was attached as its title from
the beginning?
I haven't been keeping up with the List lately, so I've missed most
of this discussion. My apologies if this has already been covered.
Neither of the Hebrew words used for the psalms ("mizmor" and
"tehillim") suggest stringed instruments. Both were varieties of
songs. It appears that the use of "psalm" in Greek translation was
meant in the secondary sense of just a song, without regard to
accompaniment. But as always with such things, exact meanings are
subject to debate by historians. Brief discussion here: http://
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=574&letter=P. Better
googling will probably turn up more.
As for King David's instruments, the one translated "harp" is a
"kinnor" in the original, and the one translated "psaltery" is a
"nevel". Both kinnor and nevel are reasonably well-known. Google
turns up a page for a modern manufacturer, presumably an attempt at
historical reconstruction.
I would venture to guess that the Greek translators noticed the
stringed instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to
attach their word "psalm" to the songs, even though the Hebrew
label made no such implication.
mdl
___
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Finale@shsu.edu
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home
Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?
___
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Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
John Howell wrote:
>Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were actually
>used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because
>they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old
>Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the
>(presumably Hebrew) word for "Psalms" was attached as its title from
>the beginning?
I haven't been keeping up with the List lately, so I've missed most of this
discussion. My apologies if this has already been covered.
Neither of the Hebrew words used for the psalms ("mizmor" and "tehillim")
suggest stringed instruments. Both were varieties of songs. It appears that the
use of "psalm" in Greek translation was meant in the secondary sense of just a
song, without regard to accompaniment. But as always with such things, exact
meanings are subject to debate by historians. Brief discussion here:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=574&letter=P. Better googling
will probably turn up more.
As for King David's instruments, the one translated "harp" is a "kinnor" in the
original, and the one translated "psaltery" is a "nevel". Both kinnor and
nevel are reasonably well-known. Google turns up a page for a modern
manufacturer, presumably an attempt at historical reconstruction.
I would venture to guess that the Greek translators noticed the stringed
instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to attach their word "psalm"
to the songs, even though the Hebrew label made no such implication.
mdl
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Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
At 4:36 PM +1000 8/28/07, Kenneth Kuhlmann wrote: Kim Patrick Clow wrote: [re a greek word in a baroque score] What does the Greek symbol and word mean? Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Looks like psi, with the full word reading psalmos (psalm). Exactly so! But consideration of the meaning of 'psalmos' has long pricked my musicolgical curiosity. Perhaps some members of this list, more informed of liturgical practice than me, can satisfy it. I should explain that in its full sense 'psalmos' does not specifically denote a biblical text or the musical setting of the same; but more generally denotes a mode of musical performance; and when applied to text referred to a text which was to be sung; and sung most specifically with the accompaniment of a harp. Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were actually used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the (presumably Hebrew) word for "Psalms" was attached as its title from the beginning? The other thing I would question is your assumption that the harp was the stringed instrument that was meant. The two stringed instruments best associated with Greek antiquity were the lyra and the kithara, not the harp. No question that harps of various kinds were known in antiquity, both arched harps (without forepillar) and angled harps (with forepillars, and therefore capable of supporting greater string tension). Most Egyptian drawings show the arched harp. But, "There is little evidence of arched harps in Mesopotamia after the end of the 3rd millennium BC, but later instruments of this type were depicted in sculpture in India," and various places in Southeast Asia. And, "Although Palestine was between two regions where the harp was widely used--Mesopotamia and Egypt--its music was different, and harps seem to have been unknown there until the 11th century BC (when Israel became a kingdom) or perhaps even until Hellenistic thimes, about a millennium later. Flavius Josephus (b. AD37 or 38) stated that the strings of the nebel (which was possibly a harp) were thicker and rougher than those of the kinnor (a lyre, which was probably the instrument played by King David, despite medieval iconography of him as a harpist)." The medieval use of terminology is rather hopelessly confused, but medieval artists depicted instruments that they were familiar with, not instruments from antiquity which they had never seen, whether in angel bands or in other settings. (All quotations from New Grove I, "Harp.") My classical greek lexicon explains 'psalmos' in these terms 1.a pulling or twanging of musical strings with the fingers; 2.a strain or burst of music; later meaning, a song sung to a stringed instrument; a psalm. A closely related word is 'psalma' meaning explicitly a tune played on a stringed instrument. Another relative is 'psalter' meaning a harp player These words derive from a verb 'psallo' meaning, iner alia, to pull and let go again, to pull, twang with the fingers; to play a stringed instrument with the fingers instead of with the plectrum; later meaning, to sing to a harp. I will not argue your definitions, since I cannot, except for the word "harp," but bridging the gap between practice and terminology in classical Greece and liturgical practice in the early Christians church seems a bit of a stretch. They were two very different worlds, and in fact the early church fathers did what they could to stamp out all influences from pagan Greece and Rome. The liturgical tradition with which I am familiar does not include the use of the harp; but, faced with this lexical evidence, I think I am entitled to conclude that the depiction of angels playing harps is not merely a charming painter's whim but a clear reference to an ancient tradition of liturgical practice. No, I don't really think you are so entitled. Not a painter's whim, but the depiction of instruments they were familiar with, and at a time when "the ancients" were one's grandfathers' generation! What they knew of antiquity was basically nothing! Assuming the harp did have its place in liturgy, I am curious as to As I suggested, an unsupported assumption. a) whether there are any extant religious traditions (Christian or otherwise) in which the use of the harp remains an essential part of liturgical practice; and I'm no expert, but I don't know of any, at least in Christian use. b) in the cases where it is no longer used, when and why did its use cease. Not a valid question if there never was such a tradition. Now we DO know, from various writings, that harp was used to accompany secular song in the middle ages, and from various iconography that the harp with forepillar as we would recognize it was known in the middle
[Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: [re a greek word in a baroque score] > What does the Greek symbol and word mean? > Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Looks like psi, with the full word reading psalmos (psalm). Exactly so! But consideration of the meaning of 'psalmos' has long pricked my musicolgical curiosity. Perhaps some members of this list, more informed of liturgical practice than me, can satisfy it. I should explain that in its full sense 'psalmos' does not specifically denote a biblical text or the musical setting of the same; but more generally denotes a mode of musical performance; and when applied to text referred to a text which was to be sung; and sung most specifically with the accompaniment of a harp. My classical greek lexicon explains 'psalmos' in these terms 1.a pulling or twanging of musical strings with the fingers; 2.a strain or burst of music; later meaning, a song sung to a stringed instrument; a psalm. A closely related word is 'psalma' meaning explicitly a tune played on a stringed instrument. Another relative is 'psalter' meaning a harp player These words derive from a verb 'psallo' meaning, iner alia, to pull and let go again, to pull, twang with the fingers; to play a stringed instrument with the fingers instead of with the plectrum; later meaning, to sing to a harp. The liturgical tradition with which I am familiar does not include the use of the harp; but, faced with this lexical evidence, I think I am entitled to conclude that the depiction of angels playing harps is not merely a charming painter's whim but a clear reference to an ancient tradition of liturgical practice. Assuming the harp did have its place in liturgy, I am curious as to a) whether there are any extant religious traditions (Christian or otherwise) in which the use of the harp remains an essential part of liturgical practice; and b) in the cases where it is no longer used, when and why did its use cease. Kenneth K ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
