Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 04.09.2007 John Howell wrote: Which is a pretty wild leap of faith in my book. By the same logic one would have to assume a priori that he provided his violinists with written parts meant for use by a single performer only, so he only used one violin on each part, and that is certainly not in agreement with his own description of his ideal forces. (From the 1731 Town Council memo, I think, but I'm not sure.) This source must be one of the most misinterpreted ones ever. Bach is not talking about ideal forces. Rather he is talking about how many _singers_ (not instrumentalists) he needs to fulfill the musical needs of the services. That was not one service, but several, and he needed at least three boys per part because two would easily be struck by illness, or their voice breaking. There is absolutely nothing here to suggest that he ever had that number of singers for any particular cantata performance. The performance of the John Passion you are refering to was in fact one of the largest performances which Bach ever staged. It included to the best of my memory, 8 singers, 3 first vlns, 2 second vlns, everything else single, including a contra bassoon (presumably to make up for the broken organ). This performance did not include Viole d'amore. I have done it with Joshua in precisely this way. it was very convincing. The B minor Mass, which I also had the honour to do with Joshua, needs 8 singers (no choir), 2 firsts, 2 seconds. There is a lot of evidence to support this. In fact those parts of the mass sent to Dresden use exactly what was available there, which did not include a choir in today's use of the word. Joshua never claimed that there were no ripienos in any of the cantatas. Instead he has always differentiated between cantatas with and without ripieno. The ripieno, however, seldom included more than one per part. That was the standard in most church performances at the time. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 03.09.2007 John Howell wrote: Parrott's hypothesis appears to be just that, like the hypothesis that Bach intended his cantatas to be performed one on a part, but copied extra vocal parts just for the heck of it!! Not sure what exactly you are talking about, but if you are refering to Rifkin's conclusions, the facts are somewhat a little more complex, and what you are saying is definitely not what Joshua said. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] (OT) was alto as tenor?
On 9/4/07, John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I scanned 3 pages of Parrott's book: http://web.christophgraupner.info:81/bach/ He shows some interesting stats on other composers and the parts ratio to singers/instrumentalists. On page 3, there is a foot note where Graupner and Telemann are cited as well, along with Jeanne Swack's research (via Telemann) in supporting Dr. Rifkin's theory. I also included Dr. Rifkin's rebuttal of Ton Koopman's critique. Enjoy! Kim Patrick Clow ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] (OT) was alto as tenor?
On 04.09.2007 John Howell wrote: If we picture him as taking 3 months to rehearse for a Fall Concert, that simply is the wrong picture. Remember that in his first 2 years at Leipzig he turned out a new cantata EVERY SINGLE WEEK! Those boys and those musicians could sightread, folks. No question about it!! ok, so how would the boys have known when to sing and when not to sing for the solos? Have you ever actually looked at those parts which you claim where used by three or more boys to sing from? There is no indication what is an aria and what is a choir piece. You get a double bar and a new meter, that's it. Either the concept of sightread performances is wrong, or, more likely, the concept of several singers per part is wrong. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 4 Sep 2007 at 17:35, Johannes Gebauer wrote: You probably conduct choirs, and because Joshua's theories rob you of the whole Bach repertoire you simply assume there must have been large choirs? That is as ludicrous an accusation as you accuse John of making. The dispute is not between large choirs (30 singers?) and one-on-a- part ensembles, but between small choirs (8-12) vs. religiously and slavishly insisting on one-on-a-part in all cases. It's quite clear that small groups of singers (fewer than 15-20) were the norm, but not at all clear to me that Rifkin's interpretation of the evidence proves that we should abandon 8 and 12-part performances in favor of 4 and fewer. Bach might have done any number of things had he the personnel. And the number of parts in the Dresden set doesn't tell you anything - - it is always the case that when sending a set of parts you copied out a single part for each independent part, and left it up to the recipient to create the doubling parts. This is the reason so many part sets have various paper types and different copyists in them, precisely because the original copyist created only the minimum number of parts to convey the complete musical texture, not the desired number of parts for a performance. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 9/4/07, David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because they were never used? Or because they got lost? Or because they didn't need them? By itself, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Sure it is. When someone makes the claim 16 member choirs were performing Bach's music, you need the evidence. I didn't mention it, but Parrott also points out that in other genres of music from the 18th century where multiple instruments would play, those parts DO survive, so your explanations about the missing vocal parts doesn't make any sense. All of Graupner's music survives intact, yet most of his cantatas only have one voice per part. Did you read the footnote Parrott commented on about Graupner's audition cantatas for Leipzig? Graupner wrote these pieces expressly for the Leipzig forces, more proof for Rikin's theory. Besides Parrott's monograph gives a detailed listing (pgs 177-187) of all surviving vocal parts from Bach's cantatas, and very few of them have multiple copies, just single S/A/T/B parts. Which doesn't tell us whether or not Bach would object to having 8-12 singers, only that in many situations, the parts clearly indicate one- on-a-part performance. Which I think is what Parrott, Rifkin, and now Paul McCreesh are advocating: let's hear the music the way Bach had it performed and according to the documentary evidence. It's always easy to mine treatises for all sorts of information. It's much more difficult to demonstrate that the remarks in those treatises: 1. represent anything other than recommendations or theories, and more important, 2. it's difficult to prove that the traditions represented in any particular treatise are connected with particular repertories. Praetorius is much, much earlier than Bach, of course. I mentioned Parrott quotes many other sources, including peers of Bach (e.g. Mattheson). Parrott cites many other quotes / sources showing that if there were other singers, it was normative to copy out those parts. We know Bach performed his cantatas, but do we know that the Dresden B Minor Mass parts were used in a performance? I thought that there is no known performance until CPE's Berlin one quite some time after his father's death. No, the B Minor Mass was performed (or sections of it) in Dresden, I'm not sure what difference versus a complete performance would make in the performance materials of the sections that WERE played. And what about performance materials in Darmstadt and Frankfurt and Hamburg, which have the same disposition, with one vocal part surviving, with very few mutliple ones? Parrott raised the question and it's a valid one, if there were multiple copies of vocal parts, if you add up Bach, Telemann and Graupner's cantata output, we have about 3700 cantatas, where there should be hundreds of copies of vocal parts. They just don't exist. What survives is what survives, not what was. Exactly. No multiple parts for vocalists in three of the leading centers of cantata composition in early 18th Germany. I'm not even bringing up Stolzel or Fasch, who were highly regarded as composers of cantatas. I've seen several Stolzel cantata manuscripts-- they are exactly like Graupner: one voice per part. Yet multiple instrument parts survive (Sonderhausen apparently had better instrumental forces than Bach in Leipzig). And what was is not necessarily strictly limiting for what would have been considered appropriate performance forces. But you don't know that. That's making an argument from thin air. Then in another sentence you completely discount what musicians and theorists of the period DO suggest as appropriate! It's the dogmatic limitation that has always annoyed the hell out of me, not the assertion that the pieces were performed one on a part in their original performances. Actually the dogmatic types are Ton Koopman and Christoph Wolff. I saw a video clip recently where they are discussing the Bach/Buxtehude connection (these videos are still available on Ton Koopman's website BTW). They seemed pretty snarky and snide in dismissing Rifkin's theory. Koopman makes some pretty cheap pot shots at Joshua Rifkin and Andrew Parrott in his written rebuttals too, which I found rather disappointing considering how much I admire Koopman. Actually the onus is on providing proof that 12-20 member choirs were the norm in early 18th century Germany. That's a ridiculous straw man -- it's not even close to what anyone is suggesting in this discussion. Maybe no one here suggested it, but I think I'm reading Koopman correctly that IS his position, or why would he have recorded all the cantatas with exactly those forces?. Thanks! Kim Patrick Clow ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
Not to mention that often composers have to settle for what someone else has and/or wants to give them. Example: my Psalm 19-derived motet was premiered with a vocal quartet and organ. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't work or that I wouldn't want to hear it with larger forces. As to how many copies got made is anybody's guess. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
And another Bach question: how often did he want equal temperament and have to settle for anything but? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Piano notation question
On Sep 3, 2007, at 7:15 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: It seems ridiculously picky to notate the value of each note using voices, or layers, and I may be being overly picky even with this notation. How is this done in piano music. No one addressed this part of your question, but as for me--a pianist of 50+ years--I'd say you are indeed being mighty picky. If you want certain, specific rhythms, seems to me you find a place for them within the beat structure of the measures involved. And then you'll get those certain, specific rhythms. What you won't get, though, is the musicality of a roll. An artistic pianist can do those in a way that would almost defy capturing them in notation but which would be musical. That's why there's a need for that rolled-chord symbol in the first place. I guess I don't get what it is you're after that beats the randomness, but artistic randomness, of a rolled chord as played by the pianist. --Richard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 4 Sep 2007 at 18:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And another Bach question: how often did he want equal temperament and have to settle for anything but? That's a very easy one: Never. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
This is not my area of expertise, but doesn't gleichschwebende mean equal temperament, rather than wohltemperiertes, which is an unequal system? So would Bach really wish an equal system? Bruce Clausen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] alto as tenor? And another Bach question: how often did he want equal temperament and have to settle for anything but? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Piano notation question
Hi Richard, There are many (maybe most) circumstances in which I would opt for your way of leaving things to the instrumentalist, and I often do. In this instance, the roll is part of the forward motion of the piece, and I want the rhythm I want. Chuck On Sep 4, 2007, at 6:30 PM, Richard Huggins wrote: On Sep 3, 2007, at 7:15 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: It seems ridiculously picky to notate the value of each note using voices, or layers, and I may be being overly picky even with this notation. How is this done in piano music. No one addressed this part of your question, but as for me--a pianist of 50+ years--I'd say you are indeed being mighty picky. If you want certain, specific rhythms, seems to me you find a place for them within the beat structure of the measures involved. And then you'll get those certain, specific rhythms. What you won't get, though, is the musicality of a roll. An artistic pianist can do those in a way that would almost defy capturing them in notation but which would be musical. That's why there's a need for that rolled-chord symbol in the first place. I guess I don't get what it is you're after that beats the randomness, but artistic randomness, of a rolled chord as played by the pianist. --Richard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
Really? You never heard the story about how he twitted Silbermann (sp?) by playing in A-flat on a non-well-tempered organ? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] alto as tenor? On 4 Sep 2007 at 18:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And another Bach question: how often did he want equal temperament and have to settle for anything but? That's a very easy one: Never. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Masterworks of the New Era and ERM Media
Dear fellow Finale-ites... My apologies for cross pointing for those who may see this multiple times. I noticed an add in one of my ASCAP magazines for this group and sent off for information and now I'm asking around about them. I'm debating whether to submit a work that is ca. 11 minutes long and with their price schedule it's going to be kinda costly. Has anyone on the list had any dealing with them? Has anyone had any of their works recorded, etc. with them? Were you happy? Did you feel that you got your monies worth? Did you feel that the exposure, if any, that you got from the project was comparable to the price? Thanks in advance. Ralph -- Ralph W. Whitfield, Jr. Bass Trombonist - Gadsden Symphony Orchestra www.rainbowbrassmusic.com Trombonist by Nature, Engineer by Necessity. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 4 Sep 2007 at 23:00, Aaron Rabushka wrote: Really? You never heard the story about how he twitted Silbermann (sp?) by playing in A-flat on a non-well-tempered organ? You said equal temperament not well-tempered. They are not even close to being the same thing. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Piano notation question
Yes--there are times when even a control freak like me has learned to leave some things to the players! Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: Chuck Israels [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Piano notation question Hi Richard, There are many (maybe most) circumstances in which I would opt for your way of leaving things to the instrumentalist, and I often do. In this instance, the roll is part of the forward motion of the piece, and I want the rhythm I want. Chuck On Sep 4, 2007, at 6:30 PM, Richard Huggins wrote: On Sep 3, 2007, at 7:15 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: It seems ridiculously picky to notate the value of each note using voices, or layers, and I may be being overly picky even with this notation. How is this done in piano music. No one addressed this part of your question, but as for me--a pianist of 50+ years--I'd say you are indeed being mighty picky. If you want certain, specific rhythms, seems to me you find a place for them within the beat structure of the measures involved. And then you'll get those certain, specific rhythms. What you won't get, though, is the musicality of a roll. An artistic pianist can do those in a way that would almost defy capturing them in notation but which would be musical. That's why there's a need for that rolled-chord symbol in the first place. I guess I don't get what it is you're after that beats the randomness, but artistic randomness, of a rolled chord as played by the pianist. --Richard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
OK--without getting into the minutiae of this or that intonation system (something I am ill-equipped to do), I've often heard that Bach had to fight to get the one he wanted, that would sound good in any key. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] alto as tenor? On 4 Sep 2007 at 23:00, Aaron Rabushka wrote: Really? You never heard the story about how he twitted Silbermann (sp?) by playing in A-flat on a non-well-tempered organ? You said equal temperament not well-tempered. They are not even close to being the same thing. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
At 6:14 PM -0500 9/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And another Bach question: how often did he want equal temperament and have to settle for anything but? In my opinion (which seems to be under attack at the moment), NEVER to the former, and also to the latter. He was perfectly capable of tuning and probably knew exactly what he preferred. And that goes for organ as well as clavier, although the tuning lasts a whole lot longer. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Masterworks of the New Era and ERM Media
I've never heard of this group, but I do have several selections (including a trombone concerto) on Vienna Modern Masters. What kinda of deal are they cutting you? (Feel free to bring this off-list if you so desire.). Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: Ralph Whitfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale List finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:12 PM Subject: [Finale] Masterworks of the New Era and ERM Media Dear fellow Finale-ites... My apologies for cross pointing for those who may see this multiple times. I noticed an add in one of my ASCAP magazines for this group and sent off for information and now I'm asking around about them. I'm debating whether to submit a work that is ca. 11 minutes long and with their price schedule it's going to be kinda costly. Has anyone on the list had any dealing with them? Has anyone had any of their works recorded, etc. with them? Were you happy? Did you feel that you got your monies worth? Did you feel that the exposure, if any, that you got from the project was comparable to the price? Thanks in advance. Ralph -- Ralph W. Whitfield, Jr. Bass Trombonist - Gadsden Symphony Orchestra www.rainbowbrassmusic.com Trombonist by Nature, Engineer by Necessity. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Piano notation question
You know, it's not like there is only one way of playing a notated rhythm, even a specifically notated one meant to be played accurately. Written rhythms are in no way inherently less musical than a roll -- unless the player in question has no rhythmic authority and no emotional connection to rhythm. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 04 Sep 2007, at 9:30 PM, Richard Huggins wrote: On Sep 3, 2007, at 7:15 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: It seems ridiculously picky to notate the value of each note using voices, or layers, and I may be being overly picky even with this notation. How is this done in piano music. No one addressed this part of your question, but as for me--a pianist of 50+ years--I'd say you are indeed being mighty picky. If you want certain, specific rhythms, seems to me you find a place for them within the beat structure of the measures involved. And then you'll get those certain, specific rhythms. What you won't get, though, is the musicality of a roll. An artistic pianist can do those in a way that would almost defy capturing them in notation but which would be musical. That's why there's a need for that rolled-chord symbol in the first place. I guess I don't get what it is you're after that beats the randomness, but artistic randomness, of a rolled chord as played by the pianist. --Richard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
At 11:00 PM -0400 9/4/07, Aaron Rabushka wrote: Really? You never heard the story about how he twitted Silbermann (sp?) by playing in A-flat on a non-well-tempered organ? Nope, but please tell us! My understanding (from MUCH discussion on the HarpsichordList) is that any organ that wasn't well-tempered was probably meantone, but definitely not equal. John And another Bach question: how often did he want equal temperament and have to settle for anything but? That's a very easy one: Never. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] (OT) was alto as tenor?
At 11:38 PM -0400 9/4/07, Aaron Rabushka wrote: OK--without getting into the minutiae of this or that intonation system (something I am ill-equipped to do), I've often heard that Bach had to fight to get the one he wanted, that would sound good in any key. No need to get into the details. Yes, some theorists talked about equal temperament as early as the 16th century. Yes, fretted instruments have trouble NOT playing in equal since each fret has to tune 6 notes on 6 different strings. But there is simply no evidence that Bach or any other high level musician in the mid-18th century would have wanted, adopted, or been able to stand the bad intonation of equal temperament. The closest we can come to that nowadays is to attend a couple of weeks of something like the Oberlin Baroque Performance Institute during the summer, where you are immersed in the world of in-tune playing and well temperaments, and then experience the shock to your ears when you reenter the world of equal temperament. I've done it! It's VERY educational. As to the 24 (or actually the 48), at least some of the experts on the HarpsichordList are convinced that Bach was showing how skilled he was by writing playable music in every key BY AVOIDING THE BAD INTERVALS IN THAT KEY. Musicians expected every key to sound different, which is one reason, I believe, that they tended to publish Opuses in sets of six or twelve in different keys. And this approach lasted longer than most people would think. I have a photocopy of an American Bandmaster's Manual from the 1810s that includes a drawing of a violin fingerboard, showing very clearly that a C# (for example) is lower on the fingerboard and therefore lower in pitch than a Db. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Piano notation question
Certainly you're right about the possibility of artistic expression of defined rhythms. We'd be in trouble if not. Even if this guy figures out how to do what he wants, I wonder what the pianist will do when he or she gets to that spot. Huh? comes to mind. Maybe if I could see it...hint hint...to see what it would look like in context, and, by the way, how the composer's intentions would be communicated to the pianist. Seems to me you have to bridge the duck syndrome (waddles like a rolled chord, quacks like a rolled chord...) --Richard On Sep 4, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: You know, it's not like there is only one way of playing a notated rhythm, even a specifically notated one meant to be played accurately. Written rhythms are in no way inherently less musical than a roll -- unless the player in question has no rhythmic authority and no emotional connection to rhythm. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 05.09.2007 David W. Fenton wrote: Who made this claim? Nobody in this discussion, so far as I can recall, but perhaps you could provide an attributed quotation where someone made that claim. Well, perhaps not directly, but John was indeed refering to the famous document, which some people including John believe to talk about the existing choir forces. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 05.09.2007 Aaron Rabushka wrote: Really? You never heard the story about how he twitted Silbermann (sp?) by playing in A-flat on a non-well-tempered organ? well tempered is not equal tempered so you may have to rephrase your question. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 04.09.2007 David W. Fenton wrote: We know Bach performed his cantatas, but do we know that the Dresden B Minor Mass parts were used in a performance? I thought that there is no known performance until CPE's Berlin one quite some time after his father's death. The point about Dresden is that there evidently wasn't a choir, but only single singers, in exactly the force needed for the parts of the B minor sent to Dresden. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 05.09.2007 David W. Fenton wrote: I'm only pointing out the weaknesses in interpretation of evidence that come from making claims about what was never there based on what is now there. Yes, but the whole theory is based on _much_ _much_ more than that. Only you haven't read it. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] alto as tenor?
On 05.09.2007 David W. Fenton wrote: And I have no objection to that. I only object to those who argue that it *must* be performed that way, and that's where Rifkin was at a while back. He's since softened his stance for political purposes, but I still think he's very dogmatic about the whole thing, in a way that ignores the range of possibilities in favor of restricting performance only to that which can be demonstrated. That's nonsense. All Joshua ever claimed was you cannot call it an authentic performance if you completely ignore the forces for which it was written and with which it was performed. That's what the discussion with Ton Koopman was about. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
