Re: [Finale] Completely O.T.

[Andrew Moschou]

On 21 December 2010 06:21, John Howell  wrote:

> But I would certainly trust the majority of modern English translations, in
> which it is certainly "deliver us from evil."  "Y" often subsituted for "i"
> or "e," and "u" and "v" were still considered the same letter as were "i"
> and "j."  Not bad for a text that had to make its way from Aramaic through
> Latin (and possibly Greek as well) into the variety of modern and
> not-so-modern languages.
>

It certainly made its way through Greek before Latin.


> Although I'm a bit surprised that the church would have allowed a
> vernacular translation in the 13th century (which I believe might be Middle
> English rather than Old, which is basically German), since the church
> reserved to itself the interpretation of scripture and actively discouraged
> translations.
>

English, before the Normal invasion, was one of the most literary and
scholarly languages in Europe. John Wyclif's translation after that time
helped to restore that status and it was definitely not allowed by the
Church. I thoroughly recommend the documentary at
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/adventure-of-english/ (which can be viewed
online) for a history of the English language.

Andrew
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Re: [Finale] Completely O.T.

[Phil Daley]

At 12/20/2010 02:51 PM, John Howell wrote:

>At 7:27 AM -0800 12/20/10, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
>>I have an ex student F.B. friend, who wants to know if the last line
>>of this Old English version means "deliver us from evil," or from
>>"Yule."  Any experts?
>>
>>Dean
>
>What's "F.B."?  Fullback?

Wow!  You are behind the times!!  They have even made a movie about FaceBook.

>It's also interesting to note that this version uses debts ("dettys")
>rather than the opposing translation "trespasses."  I've always
>wondered where THAT difference in translations came from, since it's
>a rather different meaning.

Only liberal churches use that versions, like Unitarians and UCC.

> And it's also missing the modern ending,
>which makes me wonder when THAT was added.  Linguistics and semantics
>are fascinating subjects, which I have studied much too little.

Yes, the Catholic church still uses the short version.  Protestants use the 
newer long version.



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Re: [Finale] Completely O.T.

[David W. Fenton]

On 20 Dec 2010 at 14:51, John Howell wrote:

> it's also missing the modern ending, 
> which makes me wonder when THAT was added.

You mean the lesser doxology, i.e., "For thine is the kingdom, and 
the power, and the glory, for ever and ever."

There are two versions in the scriptures, and only one of them 
includes the doxology. And the Catholic church still uses the version 
WITHOUT the doxology to this day.

I knew all of that already (having been a heavy-duty church musician 
for many years before grad school), but the Wikipedia article is 
quite informative on that and a number of other subjects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer

It includes a discussion of debts/trespasses, too.

(this is one of those cases where from my point of view, Wikipedia is 
delightfully good, and better than one would expect)

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Completely O.T.

[John Howell]

At 7:27 AM -0800 12/20/10, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
I have an ex student F.B. friend, who wants to know if the last line 
of this Old English version means "deliver us from evil," or from 
"Yule."  Any experts?


Dean


What's "F.B."?  Fullback?

But I would certainly trust the majority of modern English 
translations, in which it is certainly "deliver us from evil."  "Y" 
often subsituted for "i" or "e," and "u" and "v" were still 
considered the same letter as were "i" and "j."  Not bad for a text 
that had to make its way from Aramaic through Latin (and possibly 
Greek as well) into the variety of modern and not-so-modern languages.


Although I'm a bit surprised that the church would have allowed a 
vernacular translation in the 13th century (which I believe might be 
Middle English rather than Old, which is basically German), since the 
church reserved to itself the interpretation of scripture and 
actively discouraged translations.  That was the century of Eleanore 
of Aquitane and King Henry II (two of whose sons became Kings and 
several of whose daughters became Queens), and while the politics 
were wide open, the hold of the church was definitely NOT!


It's also interesting to note that this version uses debts ("dettys") 
rather than the opposing translation "trespasses."  I've always 
wondered where THAT difference in translations came from, since it's 
a rather different meaning.  And it's also missing the modern ending, 
which makes me wonder when THAT was added.  Linguistics and semantics 
are fascinating subjects, which I have studied much too little.




 This is a 13th century version. Oure Fader that art in heuene, 
halewed be thi name. Thi kyngdom come to us. Thi wylle be don, as in 
heuene, & in erthe. Oure eche dayes breed geue us to day. & forgeue 
us oure dettys, as we forgeue oure dettourys. And ne lede us not in 
temptacyon, but delyuere us of yuel. Amen.


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Completely O.T.

[Lawrence Yates]

No matter how appropriate it would seem in these modern times that we should
pray to be delivered from yule, I rather think it's "deliver us from evil"

Here's an older version (which ends "alys us of yfele", not geola)

Fæder ūre, þū þe eart on heofonum;
Sīe þīn nama gehālgod,
tō becume þīn rīce,
gewurþe þīn willa,
on eorðan swā swā on heofonum.
Urne gedæghwamlican hlāf sele ūs tōdæg,
and forgif ūs ūre gyltas,
swā swā wē forgifaþ ūrum gyltendum,
and ne gelǣd þū ūs on costnunge,
ac ālȳs ūs of yfele, sōþlīce

On 20 December 2010 15:27, Dean M. Estabrook  wrote:

> I have an ex student F.B. friend, who wants to know if the last line of
> this Old English version means "deliver us from evil," or from "Yule."  Any
> experts?
>
> Dean
>


>  This is a 13th century version. Oure Fader that art in heuene, halewed be
> thi name. Thi kyngdom come to us. Thi wylle be don, as in heuene, & in
> erthe. Oure eche dayes breed geue us to day. & forgeue us oure dettys, as we
> forgeue oure dettourys. And ne lede us not in temptacyon, but delyuere us of
> yuel. Amen.
>
-- 
Lawrenceyates.co.uk
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[Finale] Completely O.T.

[Dean M. Estabrook]

I have an ex student F.B. friend, who wants to know if the last line  
of this Old English version means "deliver us from evil," or from  
"Yule."  Any experts?


Dean


 This is a 13th century version. Oure Fader that art in heuene,  
halewed be thi name. Thi kyngdom come to us. Thi wylle be don, as in  
heuene, & in erthe. Oure eche dayes breed geue us to day. & forgeue  
us oure dettys, as we forgeue oure dettourys. And ne lede us not in  
temptacyon, but delyuere us of yuel. Amen.


I have opened my soul/To let in the warmth of sound/Now my saving grace
Adrian Estabrook, author

And ...  I remain intrigued that some folks who accept and practice,  
with absolute fidelity, the concepts  of, say,  feng shui and  
pyramids,  should find the task of extending their leaps of faith to  
include an existent God so arduous.

Dean M. Estabrook
http://sites.google.com/site/deanestabrook/

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Re: [Finale] iPad as electronic music stand

[Raymond Horton]

Ha! Who needs a MusicPad Pro?  Who needs an Ipad?  Use your smartphone!

Last night (Saturday) the newly-unemployed members of the Louisville
Orchestra (after the board filed for Chap 11 - more news Dec 28) put
on a hastily - assembled free concert (during a Nutcracker that was
going on - with a recording, without us).  (The concert was a big
success - overflow crowd, music went well).
As part of the program we were doing "Nimrod" from the Elgar "Enigma
Variations" followed by "Jupiter" from Holst's _The Planets_.  We had
an extra bass trombonist present since I was doubling on euphonium for
the Holst.  In rehearsal I had him double the "Nimrod" with me, since
the breathing is so hard anyway.  In the performance for Nimrod, I
went offstage during a string piece to get my euphonium, came back and
found myself sitting on the left of the tuba, with the other bass
trombonist, and, especially, the MUSIC, on the right of the tuba
player.  I still wanted to double "Nimrod," but I couldn't see the
part!  I thought I could probably play it from memory, could probably
have looked over to the tuba part and remembered which notes to fill
in during it's rests, but, on a lark, since I had time (still had one
piece I wasn't playing) I got out my Nexus-One, went to IMSLP.org and
got up the bass trombone part:



It _was_ a little tricky to scroll down to the correct page, but I
knew the part to that movement was just the right size to fit on the
phone turned sideways.  Worked like a charm.

A smartphone might NOT be the solution for, say, a broadway show, or
say, anything else, but it worked last night.  I've also used it
during an opera rehearsal (an opera with a lot of rests) to call up
IMSLP.org and get some cues out of the score.

YMMV

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra?
-

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Allen Fisher
 wrote:
> You know, I thought about that, but my book is pretty heavy for this group 
> (we have 50+ winter/xmas/holiday songs that we do) so at least for my 
> purposes it will be about the same
>
> I thought about the dropping issue too,  and there are some options out there 
> for protecting the pad if dropped that I was considering mounting into a 
> black binder (which is what we use anyway)
>
> (Discussion aside, isn't the iPad a blast?)
>
> Allen
> On 18 Dec, 2010, at 10:01 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>> Wouldn't iPads be substantially heavier than an average choral folder, and 
>> more likely to be dropped? All the choirs I see have at least one folder 
>> drop per rehearsal/concert.
>>
>> Christopher
>>
>>
>> On Sat Dec 18, at SaturdayDec 18 10:54 AM, Allen Fisher wrote:
>>
>>> I am actually looking at setting this up for myself, as part of a small 
>>> group that I sing with. Since it's choral scores, the iPad's about the 
>>> right size to display a page.
>>>
>>> I was also considering making an app that could take PDF files with a more 
>>> musician-friendly interface for turning pages (and searching for titles, 
>>> etc)... but I really don't have the time.
>>>
>>> As some of the others have said, I don't think my pad's big enough to 
>>> display an orchestral part at the right size, however, it might find a home 
>>> quicker in the choral world.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iDon'tKnowWhat
>>
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> Allen Fisher
> Founder and Principal Developer
> Fisher Art and Technology
> al...@fisherartandtech.com
> i...@fisherartandtech.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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