Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
There's also a recording of the piece, which could give additional insight into the composer's wishes. Go to the link originally given: http://www.marcgosselin.fr/compositeur/pour-instruments.html and click on the playback arrow next to Fantasme (as already stated, ouvrir will open a PDF of the piece). In this interpretation it sounds as if the baseball bat player (maybe the composer himself? - no information is given) is not observing the fermatas. On 4 Feb 2012, at 06:08, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 3 Feb 2012, at 1:41 PM, Whittall, Geoff wrote: I think a key question to answer, before you worry about the notated duration of the note, is what is the bat hitting (or, what is hitting the bat)? Did no one read the score Jef sent? It's in French, but he helpfully provided a translation. The performance instruction on the Baseball Bat staff reads: on the viola, with conviction and passion. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
hey john, here is the original cheers, jef click on ouvrir (opens PDF) for the piece fantasme (6th in the list) http://www.marcgosselin.fr/compositeur/pour-instruments.html i'm thinking the baseball bat would be best notated on a single line, and actually normal noteheads could be used for the part, since it is played normally and is already on a percussion staff. also i find that sixteenth notes would better represent the composer's intentions; the quarter note for me suggests a duration that is inconsistent with the gesture... further to the last point, the fermata should actually be on the 2nd (or 3rd) rest for clarity, no? but maybe there are some experts on the list that might have some other ideas or experiences in these kinds of contexts? cheers, jef == english translations: [A] - free(ly) m4 - on the viola, with conviction and passion m6 - keep the violist from whimpering by any means necessary bottom of page - * unfortunately, conservatories do not offer baseball bat courses, but any performer would (be able to) execute this part with pleasure and professionalism. / this is not the definitive score, the author feels that the A section is too long. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
At 12:55 PM +0100 2/4/12, SN jef chippewa wrote: hey john, here is the original cheers, jef Thanks, jef! Now that I've seen the score, I'm no further along in understanding the composer's intention, obvious as it may seem, and therefore in interpreting the notational questions. And I'm a violist (And would run screaming from the hall if anyone approached my instrument with a baseball bat in hand!!) The intent is obviously to apply the bat to the viola. But to what PART of the viola, in what manner, and with what degree of force? Two major choices, left unspecified: First, use the bat to sound the strings, which would require either bouncing it off the strings or scraping it across the strings. Considering the weight of the bat (and Marc does not specify whether it should be aluminum, wood, or what weight should be used, probably not being a baseball player himself, and CERTAINLY not being a violist!), bouncing it off the strings would likely produce little if any audible effect. It would be a very inefficient kind of col lengno at best!!! Scraping might produce a sound, although i suspect that the bat would need to be rosined for it to work. But in that case Marc should have given a pitch to the note. But either case would result in a sound that in THEORY could be sustained for the length of the decay or the scrape, which would explain the fermatas. But it would NOT explain no indication of a pitch. Or, second, use the bat to strike the viola itself, but where? As any string player would know, striking the instrument (usually done with the fingers, not a lethal weapon!) gives a different sound depending on where it is struck. Anywhere on the resonating surface would give an audible sound but not a sustained one. Anywhere on a nonresonating surface would simply be an unsustained click. But in reality I don't thing Marc has a clue what he wants, and is trying to pull a Gallic P.D.Q. Bach that somehow fails to be especially humorous. And with the important difference that Professor Schikele's P.D.Q. Bach pieces actually CAN be performed to humorous effect, while this score seems to be simply an attempt to out-Python the Monty Python dadaism. If he were serious he would have to have given more specific instruction and answered the question above. And in the absence of those answers, the notational questions simply can't be answered, because we can't possibly know what kind of sound to represent. And I put M. Gosselin on notice that should he ever ask me to play viola (unlikely as that may be), I would require him to put up a bond in advance equal to the full replacement cost of my instrument with an equal or better one! We ain't talking rock-'n-roll guitars here All the best, John click on ouvrir (opens PDF) for the piece fantasme (6th in the list) http://www.marcgosselin.fr/compositeur/pour-instruments.html i'm thinking the baseball bat would be best notated on a single line, and actually normal noteheads could be used for the part, since it is played normally and is already on a percussion staff. also i find that sixteenth notes would better represent the composer's intentions; the quarter note for me suggests a duration that is inconsistent with the gesture... further to the last point, the fermata should actually be on the 2nd (or 3rd) rest for clarity, no? but maybe there are some experts on the list that might have some other ideas or experiences in these kinds of contexts? cheers, jef == english translations: [A] - free(ly) m4 - on the viola, with conviction and passion m6 - keep the violist from whimpering by any means necessary bottom of page - * unfortunately, conservatories do not offer baseball bat courses, but any performer would (be able to) execute this part with pleasure and professionalism. / this is not the definitive score, the author feels that the A section is too long. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
At 11:00 AM +0100 2/4/12, Florence + Michael wrote: There's also a recording of the piece, which could give additional insight into the composer's wishes. Go to the link originally given: http://www.marcgosselin.fr/compositeur/pour-instruments.html and click on the playback arrow next to Fantasme (as already stated, ouvrir will open a PDF of the piece). In this interpretation it sounds as if the baseball bat player (maybe the composer himself? - no information is given) is not observing the fermatas. OK, that answers my questions. And I'm outa here!! Would go over well with middle schoolers, though. (I can just imagine all the new Viola Jokes ... sigh!!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
Regardless of the direction on the viola, with conviction and passion, a question that needs to be answered is exactly what [part of the viola] is being hit? If a composer doesn't give clear directions about how exactly to do something, there is no reason for a potential performer to believe that a recording is the gold standard of musical and technical choices. I contend that where you hit the viola (at least, for the first note) may have an impact upon how one would accurately notate it, so perhaps the score should indicate that. Given that the recording suggests a volume above mf, the length of the notes MAY actually matter; the instrument becomes differently resonant as it becomes a multitude of smaller instruments over the course of the performance. To think that some people suggest there is too much violance in modern music...* *Yes, I meant to spell it that way. Geoff ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
Context would seem to suggest the most vulnerable part. I think my own inclination would be to aim squarely for the bridge, at least for the first note. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 4 Feb 2012, at 4:06 PM, Whittall, Geoff wrote: Regardless of the direction on the viola, with conviction and passion, a question that needs to be answered is exactly what [part of the viola] is being hit? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
What is baseball bat notation I am assuming that it is the musical note that I used to hear when Mickey Mantle hit a home run.but I could be wrong. :-) Regardless of the direction on the viola, with conviction and passion, a question that needs to be answered is exactly what [part of the viola] is being hit? If a composer doesn't give clear directions about how exactly to do something, there is no reason for a potential performer to believe that a recording is the gold standard of musical and technical choices. I contend that where you hit the viola (at least, for the first note) may have an impact upon how one would accurately notate it, so perhaps the score should indicate that. Given that the recording suggests a volume above mf, the length of the notes MAY actually matter; the instrument becomes differently resonant as it becomes a multitude of smaller instruments over the course of the performance. To think that some people suggest there is too much violance in modern music...* *Yes, I meant to spell it that way. Geoff ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
I think a key question to answer, before you worry about the notated duration of the note, is what is the bat hitting (or, what is hitting the bat)? If the percussionist/batter is hitting a baseball into the audience, a 1/16th note is probably good, because the sound will naturally be short. If the target is a metal plate, it would be somewhat resonant, and a 1/16th note probably isn't usefully accurate. If something is hitting a non-resonant bat, quarters are probably fine. I doubt anyone wants to read un-necessary rests, if they don't add meaning to a moment. Is tempo an issue? Generally, there is little point in notating things in percussion short enough that they might be acoustically accurate. If that was the case, snare drum notes would never be notated as quarters; they all be 1/16ths or shorter, with lots of following rests. Re: the fermata. Does the bat ring, and require a terminal tie like a ringing orchestral cymbal part? That might be a reasonable alternative to the fermata mark.I agree that the fermata should not go over the note, because the note isn't likely to be long, but if the point is to freeze the action, putting it over the second beat rest seems reasonable. Re: single or five-line staff. I can't imagine it matters to a player. Clarity isn't an issue here, so visual aesthetics might be a more pressing concern. Interesting questions, Geoff -- ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
Would someone mind reposting the original query? I don't know how I missed it, but obviously I did, and none of the discussion makes sense without knowing the original context. Thanks! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
On 3 Feb 2012, at 1:41 PM, Whittall, Geoff wrote: I think a key question to answer, before you worry about the notated duration of the note, is what is the bat hitting (or, what is hitting the bat)? Did no one read the score Jef sent? It's in French, but he helpfully provided a translation. The performance instruction on the Baseball Bat staff reads: on the viola, with conviction and passion. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
click on ouvrir (opens PDF) for the piece fantasme (6th in the list) http://www.marcgosselin.fr/compositeur/pour-instruments.html i'm thinking the baseball bat would be best notated on a single line, and actually normal noteheads could be used for the part, since it is played normally and is already on a percussion staff. also i find that sixteenth notes would better represent the composer's intentions; the quarter note for me suggests a duration that is inconsistent with the gesture... further to the last point, the fermata should actually be on the 2nd (or 3rd) rest for clarity, no? but maybe there are some experts on the list that might have some other ideas or experiences in these kinds of contexts? cheers, jef == english translations: [A] - free(ly) m4 - on the viola, with conviction and passion m6 - keep the violist from whimpering by any means necessary bottom of page - * unfortunately, conservatories do not offer baseball bat courses, but any performer would (be able to) execute this part with pleasure and professionalism. / this is not the definitive score, the author feels that the A section is too long. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
My thoughts: Single line is fine. Five-line would work just fine, too. I would also put the fermata over the 3rd rest. I think a quarter note is acceptable in this context. The only tempo mark given is freely which means it could be performed slow or fast. An eighth note could work, but a sixteenth note is getting a little to pedantic in my opinion. How is the baseball bat played? Striking it with a stick or mallet like a woodblock? Striking something else with the bat? Striking the viola with the bat? Striking the violist with the bat? Depending on the action(s) wanted, maybe a dotted half note would be more appropriate! On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:41 PM, SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com wrote: click on ouvrir (opens PDF) for the piece fantasme (6th in the list) http://www.marcgosselin.fr/compositeur/pour-instruments.html i'm thinking the baseball bat would be best notated on a single line, and actually normal noteheads could be used for the part, since it is played normally and is already on a percussion staff. also i find that sixteenth notes would better represent the composer's intentions; the quarter note for me suggests a duration that is inconsistent with the gesture... further to the last point, the fermata should actually be on the 2nd (or 3rd) rest for clarity, no? but maybe there are some experts on the list that might have some other ideas or experiences in these kinds of contexts? cheers, jef == english translations: [A] - free(ly) m4 - on the viola, with conviction and passion m6 - keep the violist from whimpering by any means necessary bottom of page - * unfortunately, conservatories do not offer baseball bat courses, but any performer would (be able to) execute this part with pleasure and professionalism. / this is not the definitive score, the author feels that the A section is too long. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] what is correct baseball bat notation?
hi ryan, thanks for your helpful comments. Single line is fine. Five-line would work just fine, too. I would also put the fermata over the 3rd rest. i would just be worried that the decisiveness of the action in the 1st quarter could be compromised by having the fermata on the 3rd quarter... I think a quarter note is acceptable in this context. The only tempo mark given is freely which means it could be performed slow or fast. An eighth note could work, but a sixteenth note is getting a little to pedantic in my opinion. yeah i think you are right, actually the composer works in jazz idioms, so the 16th would probably be overkill. ibid the 5-line staff, although the 1-line would be right at home in a new music setting... a question of intended audience, i suppose. How is the baseball bat played? Striking it with a stick or mallet like a woodblock? Striking something else with the bat? Striking the viola with the bat? Striking the violist with the bat? Depending on the action(s) wanted, maybe a dotted half note would be more appropriate! well if a longer duration was actually desired, a tremolo would maybe be in order (although it inherently suggests a sort of regularity that would be foreign to the composer's intentions, in my opinion), maybe with the expressive marking (in italics) freely. but the composer clearly (at least in my mind) wishes there to be sharp, decisive actions followed by a pause (think nam june paik's one). the instructions -- i think -- are best left a liiittle open, but it seems pretty clear that the composer intends to have the player use the bat on the on the viola, not on the player despite the comment about supressing the whimpering :-) click on ouvrir (opens PDF) for the piece fantasme (6th in the list) http://www.marcgosselin.fr/compositeur/pour-instruments.html i'm thinking the baseball bat would be best notated on a single line, and actually normal noteheads could be used for the part, since it is played normally and is already on a percussion staff. also i find that sixteenth notes would better represent the composer's intentions; the quarter note for me suggests a duration that is inconsistent with the gesture... further to the last point, the fermata should actually be on the 2nd (or 3rd) rest for clarity, no? but maybe there are some experts on the list that might have some other ideas or experiences in these kinds of contexts? cheers, jef == english translations: [A] - free(ly) m4 - on the viola, with conviction and passion m6 - keep the violist from whimpering by any means necessary bottom of page - * unfortunately, conservatories do not offer baseball bat courses, but any performer would (be able to) execute this part with pleasure and professionalism. / this is not the definitive score, the author feels that the A section is too long. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
