Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
At 9:54 PM -0400 8/26/05, Andrew Stiller wrote: This is another jazz/pop vs. classical terminology thingy. [snip] On the jazz side, one of the two suspended cymbals in the standard traps set is called a "crash cymbal," and the other is called the "ride cymbal." The former is of heavier gauge and is for producing big splashes of sound through single strokes, rolls, etc. The ride cymbal by contrast is usually played with the tips of the (snare) sticks in rapid rhythms. An excellent example, Andrew, but I think, from the days when our older son was a percussionist rather than a singer, that you have them reversed. The ride cymbal is heavier, deliberately so to keep it from peaking and to keep the response crisp. The crash cymbal is lighter, and so easier to drive to the "crash" point. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
I'm curious about the use of "crash cymbals" versus "clash symbols." As I said, in classical circles, I have always heard (and used) "crash cymbals" to mean hand-held cymbals. I have never heard the term "crash cymbals" applied to suspended cymbals except in jazz circles. However, if "clash cymbals" is widely used and understood, it might be preferable to avoid confusion with the jazz term. I don't use the term Clash Cymbals either and it is not often usedbut technically, the way I understand it, that is what they are. I have seen "Crash Cymbals" used beforethat is not unsual... For me personally, and to avoid confusion (time is money on the scoring stage)...I was taught to use "Piatti" and "Sus Cymbal" and leave the whole Crash Cymbal thing out. (Additional terms I use and have seen used with Sus Cymbal are "Lg., Med, or Sm.", "w/hard mallets", "w/soft mallets", "scrape", "w/superball", "bowed", "w/stick") When writing a Drum kit part, I use Crash Cymbal (Cr.) Ride Cymbal (Ride), Hi-Hat (H.H.) etc. Here this article explains the way it was explained to me (w/ source link): * (snip) Crash cymbals: Orchestral crash cymbals are traditionally used in pairs, each one having a strap set in the bell of the cymbal by which they are held. Such a pair is known technically as a pair of clash cymbals, although this term is rarely used, see clash cymbals. They are confusingly sometimes referred to simply as crash cymbals, although this term properly applies also to some suspended cymbals. The sound is obtained by rubbing their edges together in a sliding movement rather than by clashing them against each other as laymen often suppose. A skilled player can obtain an enormous dynamic range from such a pair of cymbals. For example, in Beethoven's ninth symphony, one of their first appearances in an orchestral work, they make their entry pianissimo, adding a touch of colour rather than an almighty crash. Clash cymbals are usually damped by pressing them against the player's body. A composer may write "Let them vibrate"(l.v.), sec" (short) or equivalent indications on the score; more usually, the player must judge exactly when to damp the cymbals based on the written duration of crash and the context in which it occurs. Clash cymbals have traditionally been accompanied by the bass drum playing an identical part. This combination, played loudly, is an effective way to accentuate a note since the two instruments together contribute to both very low and very high frequency ranges and provide a satisfying "crash-bang-wallop". In older music the composer sometimes provided just one part for this pair of instruments, writing senza piatti, or piatti soli if the bass drum is to remain silent. However, the modern convention is for the instruments to have independent parts. Clash cymbals evolved into the low-sock and from this to the modern hi-hat. Even in a modern drum kit, they remain paired with the bass drum as the two instruments which are played with the player's feet. However, hi-hat cymbals tend to be heavy with little taper, more similar to a ride cymbal than to a crash cymbal as found in a drum kit, and perform a ride rather than a crash function. (snip) http://www.answers.com/topic/cymbal ** Have a good weekend everyone! Best, Karen ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
Actually "clashed cymbals" (not "clash") is a common term and the Oxford Companion to Musical Instruments uses it. But I agree that most of us now just call them "crash cymbals." Ken At 06:54 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote: This is another jazz/pop vs. classical terminology thingy. In classical music, the pair of cymbals you hold in two hands and bang together are called crash cymbals (not "clash cymbals" as someone else had it) Ken Durling Composition and Music Services Berkeley, CA [510] 843-4419 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
On 26 Aug 2005, at 9:53 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On the jazz side, one of the two suspended cymbals in the standard traps set is called a "crash cymbal," and the other is called the "ride cymbal." The former is of heavier gauge and is for producing big splashes of sound through single strokes, rolls, etc. The ride cymbal by contrast is usually played with the tips of the (snare) sticks in rapid rhythms. I only picked out this one item to correct among all the otherwise excellent info. Crash cymbals on a drum kit are usually of LIGHTER gauge (thinner) than the ride(s), not heavier. And though it is only of interest to drum students, I should mention that in a standard small drum kit with two cymbals, BOTH cymbals are used for riding AND for crashing according to the taste of the drummer and the musical context, even though one is called the ride and the other the crash. Andrew is perfectly correct that the usual ride sound is with the TIP of the stick on the bow or the bell of the cymbal, while the usual crash sound is with the SHOULDER of the stick on the edge or the bow of the cymbal, though exceptions abound. To all you jazzbos out there who already knew this: as you were. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:12 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hey all, This is regarding the "Basic Orch Percussion" GPO instrument included in GPO Finale Edition (and GPO full): Can anyone tell me what the difference is supposed to be between the cymbals they call "piatti cymbals" (found at C6, C#6, and D6) and the "crash cymbal" (found at D#6)? This is another jazz/pop vs. classical terminology thingy. In classical music, the pair of cymbals you hold in two hands and bang together are called crash cymbals (not "clash cymbals" as someone else had it), and the plural "cymbals," by itself and with no modifier or other information, is taken to mean "crash cymbals." On the jazz side, one of the two suspended cymbals in the standard traps set is called a "crash cymbal," and the other is called the "ride cymbal." The former is of heavier gauge and is for producing big splashes of sound through single strokes, rolls, etc. The ride cymbal by contrast is usually played with the tips of the (snare) sticks in rapid rhythms. Classical crash cymbals are seldom used in jazz, and classical percussionists use a different terminology for the various gauges and dimensions of suspended cymbals, so the two "crash" terms seldom bump into each other. They do bump into each other though in a mixed jazz/classical MIDI specification, and that's where the problem here comes from. GPO apparently has reserved "crash cymbal" for its jazz sense, and has awkwardly renamed the classical crash cymbals based on the assumption that the Italian term piatti (which just means "cymbals"--i.e., crash cymbals) would be sufficient indication that the classical instrument was intended. They could of course just have said "piatti," but since they don't say "gran cassa" or "campane tubolare" this lone use of Italian would have created just as much confusion as the neologism "piatti cymbals" appears to have done. Me, I would have called the two sounds "crash cymbal" and "crash cymbals" since IMO the use of singular vs. plural is perfectly clear. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
On 26 Aug 2005, at 10:35 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: The sound they call "crash cymbal" is actually a suspended cymbal crashed (i.e., hit very hard, with followthrough) with a stick. Actually, now that I listen to it again, I realize it's not being hit with a stick -- I think it's actually being hit with a soft mallet. Anyone with Fin2006 want to confirm/deny? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
I'm quoting Andrew in full because I think he intended to send this to the list and not just me personally. On 26 Aug 2005, at 9:53 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:12 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hey all, This is regarding the "Basic Orch Percussion" GPO instrument included in GPO Finale Edition (and GPO full): Can anyone tell me what the difference is supposed to be between the cymbals they call "piatti cymbals" (found at C6, C#6, and D6) and the "crash cymbal" (found at D#6)? This is another jazz/pop vs. classical terminology thingy. In classical music, the pair of cymbals you hold in two hands and bang together are called crash cymbals (not "clash cymbals" as someone else had it), and the plural "cymbals," by itself and with no modifier or other information, is taken to mean "crash cymbals." On the jazz side, one of the two suspended cymbals in the standard traps set is called a "crash cymbal," and the other is called the "ride cymbal." The former is of heavier gauge and is for producing big splashes of sound through single strokes, rolls, etc. The ride cymbal by contrast is usually played with the tips of the (snare) sticks in rapid rhythms. Classical crash cymbals are seldom used in jazz, and classical percussionists use a different terminology for the various gauges and dimensions of suspended cymbals, so the two "crash" terms seldom bump into each other. They do bump into each other though in a mixed jazz/classical MIDI specification, and that's where the problem here comes from. GPO apparently has reserved "crash cymbal" for its jazz sense, and has awkwardly renamed the classical crash cymbals based on the assumption that the Italian term piatti (which just means "cymbals"--i.e., crash cymbals) would be sufficient indication that the classical instrument was intended. They could of course just have said "piatti," but since they don't say "gran cassa" or "campane tubolare" this lone use of Italian would have created just as much confusion as the neologism "piatti cymbals" appears to have done. Me, I would have called the two sounds "crash cymbal" and "crash cymbals" since IMO the use of singular vs. plural is perfectly clear. I'm curious about the use of "crash cymbals" versus "clash symbols." As I said, in classical circles, I have always heard (and used) "crash cymbals" to mean hand-held cymbals. I have never heard the term "crash cymbals" applied to suspended cymbals except in jazz circles. However, if "clash cymbals" is widely used and understood, it might be preferable to avoid confusion with the jazz term. On the other hand, GPO's terminology is "Piatti cymbal 1," "Piatti cymbal 2," "Piatti cymbal 3" (which seems like a double malaprop since it translates as "cymbals cymbal"). These are all crashed pairs of cymbals. The sound they call "crash cymbal" is actually a suspended cymbal crashed (i.e., hit very hard, with followthrough) with a stick. The sound they call "cymbal hit (ping)" is (presumably) the same suspended cymbal struck like a jazz ride cymbal (i.e., no followthrough). Do classical percussionists really use the term "ping" to refer to this kind of playing on a suspended cymbal? GPO isn't a mixed jazz/classical environment -- it contains orchestral instruments only, so it probably ought to use orchestral terms only. I'm just trying to find out the best, least ambiguous terms for these samples. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
>>> Darcy James Argue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 08/26/05 6:08 PM >>> > At any rate, my main question was about the term "piatti cymbal" > which is used in both the GPO and the Finale manual -- this is > definitely a malaprop, right? It should be either "piatti" or "clash > cymbals" -- not "piatti cymbal." Correct? Darcy: Just for the fun of it, I googled the phrases "piatti cymbal" and "piatti cymbals." It looks like this wording, especially the second version, is relatively common in the sound sample world, so GPO (and Make Music) is not alone. Please note that I'm not suggesting that this is an acceptible excuse for what I agree is almost certainly a malaprop. Wade Kotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
I don't know about its being a malapropism, but it's certainly a redundancy. "Piatti" is just the standard It. term for the pair (piatto/piatti) of symphonic "clashed" cymbals. A "crash" cymbal to me is something on a drum kit, along with the "ride", "splash" cymbals etc. At 05:08 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote: At any rate, my main question was about the term "piatti cymbal" which is used in both the GPO and the Finale manual -- this is definitely a malaprop, right? It should be either "piatti" or "clash cymbals" -- not "piatti cymbal." Correct? Ken Durling Composition and Music Services Berkeley, CA [510] 843-4419 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
On Aug 26, 2005, at 5:08 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hey Karen, I'm used to referring to a pair of handheld cymbals as "crash cymbals" (what you would call "clash cymbals" or "piatti") and a suspended cymbal as, well, a "suspended cymbal," even when it's crashed. Darcy, I think that conventional use of this term implies a suspended cymbal, but using the term, "suspended" is less ambiguous. But now that I listen again, I now realize that what GPO calls a "crash cymbal" is actually a crashed suspended cymbal (and not a crashed pair of crashed cymbals). At any rate, my main question was about the term "piatti cymbal" which is used in both the GPO and the Finale manual -- this is definitely a malaprop, right? It should be either "piatti" or "clash cymbals" -- not "piatti cymbal." Correct? Right, correct. Repetitive, redundant. :-) :-) Chuck - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 26 Aug 2005, at 7:56 PM, Karen wrote: Hi Darcy, The way I understand itCrash Cymbal is singular (not plural)...it is a suspended cymbal. But this term is often mixed up because Clash Cymbals are the two cymbals that are hit together like plates...(hence Piatti...pl.) Often folks will say Crash Cymbals when what is really meaning is Clash Cymbals. When I'm writing, I say Piatti (meaning Clash Cymbals)...not Piatti Cymbals because that is redundent as you pointed out, to avoid the confusion. Percussionists will know exactly what you are asking for. Orchestrally speaking I'll then say Sus Cymbal (and additionally Sm. Med. Lg. to be even more specific.) when I want a Crash Cymbal. I only use Crash (Cr.) in a drum kit part. And I guess...the modern Hi-Hat is actually a decendant of Piatti. Just my understanding and practices...:-) Best, Karen Can anyone tell me what the difference is supposed to be between the cymbals they call "piatti cymbals" (found at C6, C#6, and D6) and the "crash cymbal" (found at D#6)? I know they all *sound* different (and the "crash cymbals" are obviously hit harder and allowed to righ) but aren't all of these samples crash cymbals? And what is a "piatti cymbal" anyway -- isn't that like saying "cymbal cymbal"? Am I missing something here? Does the word "piatti cymbal" have some special meaning -- distinct from "crash cymbals"? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:12 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hey all, This is regarding the "Basic Orch Percussion" GPO instrument included in GPO Finale Edition (and GPO full): Can anyone tell me what the difference is supposed to be between the cymbals they call "piatti cymbals" (found at C6, C#6, and D6) and the "crash cymbal" (found at D#6)? I know they all *sound* different (and the "crash cymbals" are obviously hit harder and allowed to righ) but aren't all of these samples crash cymbals? And what is a "piatti cymbal" anyway -- isn't that like saying "cymbal cymbal"? Am I missing something here? Does the word "piatti cymbal" have some special meaning -- distinct from "crash cymbals"? Yes, piatti are cymbals, but usually the word when alone and unqualified by any other word refers to a pair of hand cymbals specifically, rather than a suspended cymbal (piatti is plural, piatto would be one, presumably suspended cymbal.) I don't know whether GPO follows this convention or not, but you could try to discern whether or not it seems to be one struck with a stick or two struck together. You can hit them together softly, too (which a lot of non-percussionists tend to forget!), "swish" them together, and/or mute them against your chest - not strictly a crash, so that might be the meaning of "piatti cymbals" while the "crash cymbals" might be just a louder stroke of the same instruments. I agree it's confusing and badly named. I would never write anything that prone to misinterpretation on an actual part. Obviously, for GPO purposes, use the sound you like the best for the context. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
Hey Karen, I'm used to referring to a pair of handheld cymbals as "crash cymbals" (what you would call "clash cymbals" or "piatti") and a suspended cymbal as, well, a "suspended cymbal," even when it's crashed. But now that I listen again, I now realize that what GPO calls a "crash cymbal" is actually a crashed suspended cymbal (and not a crashed pair of crashed cymbals). At any rate, my main question was about the term "piatti cymbal" which is used in both the GPO and the Finale manual -- this is definitely a malaprop, right? It should be either "piatti" or "clash cymbals" -- not "piatti cymbal." Correct? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 26 Aug 2005, at 7:56 PM, Karen wrote: Hi Darcy, The way I understand itCrash Cymbal is singular (not plural)...it is a suspended cymbal. But this term is often mixed up because Clash Cymbals are the two cymbals that are hit together like plates...(hence Piatti...pl.) Often folks will say Crash Cymbals when what is really meaning is Clash Cymbals. When I'm writing, I say Piatti (meaning Clash Cymbals)...not Piatti Cymbals because that is redundent as you pointed out, to avoid the confusion. Percussionists will know exactly what you are asking for. Orchestrally speaking I'll then say Sus Cymbal (and additionally Sm. Med. Lg. to be even more specific.) when I want a Crash Cymbal. I only use Crash (Cr.) in a drum kit part. And I guess...the modern Hi-Hat is actually a decendant of Piatti. Just my understanding and practices...:-) Best, Karen Can anyone tell me what the difference is supposed to be between the cymbals they call "piatti cymbals" (found at C6, C#6, and D6) and the "crash cymbal" (found at D#6)? I know they all *sound* different (and the "crash cymbals" are obviously hit harder and allowed to righ) but aren't all of these samples crash cymbals? And what is a "piatti cymbal" anyway -- isn't that like saying "cymbal cymbal"? Am I missing something here? Does the word "piatti cymbal" have some special meaning -- distinct from "crash cymbals"? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
Hi Darcy, The way I understand itCrash Cymbal is singular (not plural)...it is a suspended cymbal. But this term is often mixed up because Clash Cymbals are the two cymbals that are hit together like plates... (hence Piatti...pl.) Often folks will say Crash Cymbals when what is really meaning is Clash Cymbals. When I'm writing, I say Piatti (meaning Clash Cymbals)...not Piatti Cymbals because that is redundent as you pointed out, to avoid the confusion. Percussionists will know exactly what you are asking for. Orchestrally speaking I'll then say Sus Cymbal (and additionally Sm. Med. Lg. to be even more specific.) when I want a Crash Cymbal. I only use Crash (Cr.) in a drum kit part. And I guess...the modern Hi-Hat is actually a decendant of Piatti. Just my understanding and practices...:-) Best, Karen Can anyone tell me what the difference is supposed to be between the cymbals they call "piatti cymbals" (found at C6, C#6, and D6) and the "crash cymbal" (found at D#6)? I know they all *sound* different (and the "crash cymbals" are obviously hit harder and allowed to righ) but aren't all of these samples crash cymbals? And what is a "piatti cymbal" anyway -- isn't that like saying "cymbal cymbal"? Am I missing something here? Does the word "piatti cymbal" have some special meaning -- distinct from "crash cymbals"? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
On 26 Aug 2005, at 7:12 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: (and the "crash cymbals" are obviously hit harder and allowed to righ) Should be "allowed to RING". - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] GPO Percussion - "piatti cymbal"?
Hey all, This is regarding the "Basic Orch Percussion" GPO instrument included in GPO Finale Edition (and GPO full): Can anyone tell me what the difference is supposed to be between the cymbals they call "piatti cymbals" (found at C6, C#6, and D6) and the "crash cymbal" (found at D#6)? I know they all *sound* different (and the "crash cymbals" are obviously hit harder and allowed to righ) but aren't all of these samples crash cymbals? And what is a "piatti cymbal" anyway -- isn't that like saying "cymbal cymbal"? Am I missing something here? Does the word "piatti cymbal" have some special meaning -- distinct from "crash cymbals"? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
