Re: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
At 11:39 AM +0100 11/22/10, João Pais wrote: for example, not used in bartok string quartets 1 (1908-09) and 2 (1915-17) [don't have 3 (1927) handy] but used in 4th (1928) and onwards. i don't have the 4th handy weither but know the snap pizz is used there for sure. if my memory is right, he used it first in the 3rd sq., but not much. don't know much about other string works (or if music for strings/perc/cel came first, I think not). I don't seem to have received the original post on this, so I'm not sure what the question was. Could anyone fill me in? I'm sure I would have noticed it, since the Subject line is rather intriguing. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
for example, not used in bartok string quartets 1 (1908-09) and 2 (1915-17) [don't have 3 (1927) handy] but used in 4th (1928) and onwards. i don't have the 4th handy weither but know the snap pizz is used there for sure. if my memory is right, he used it first in the 3rd sq., but not much. don't know much about other string works (or if music for strings/perc/cel came first, I think not). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re(2): [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
Gardner Read, Music Notation, p. 272: "Another symbol is x invented by Stockhausen, inveterate fabricator of notational devices. This sign is a slight modification of (circle-line up) or (circle-line down) created by Béla Bartók for the "snap" pizzicato in string instruments . . . " **Leigh On Wed, Sep 29, 2010, SN jef chippewa wrote: >thanks, actually it is, it indicates there was no >special symbol for it back then. since bartók >seems to have been the first to have used the >technique widely and the thing is named after him >it would seem logical to use the symbol he used >for it. i have yet to find out who in fact >invented the symbol and if there were other >versions / symbols used before the ring with >upwards tail. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
The notation in the 7th is f with the footnote "So stark anreißen, daß die Saiten an das Holz anschlagen." Not much help for the current discussion, I guess. (Bar 401) thanks, actually it is, it indicates there was no special symbol for it back then. since bartók seems to have been the first to have used the technique widely and the thing is named after him it would seem logical to use the symbol he used for it. i have yet to find out who in fact invented the symbol and if there were other versions / symbols used before the ring with upwards tail. and i have no idea where the tail-down version cropped up, but have come across it lots in germany. i got ahold of the kodaly op. 8 score, and he uses various techniques extensively, including l.h. pizz. (plus sign), so if he didn't use it in this particular piece i am assuming the technique had not been very well known by then (1915). for example, not used in bartok string quartets 1 (1908-09) and 2 (1915-17) [don't have 3 (1927) handy] but used in 4th (1928) and onwards. i don't have the 4th handy weither but know the snap pizz is used there for sure. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
thanks michael, very helpful indeed. I have several sources in the Boosey and Hawkes editions. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
I have several sources in the Boosey and Hawkes editions. B&H 18756 Contrasts 1st mvt page 7, etc. B&H 16155 circle with the up line page 20, 28, several in the strings percussion and celeste the circle within a circle on page 24, I can't find my copy of the divertimento, but, given the fact that it's a B&H score, it most likely follows the circle with the up line as well I hope this helps. Michael mmathew_musicp...@comcast.net mmathew_musicp...@yahoo.com http://www.musicengravers.com/cgi-bin/engravers.pl http://oregonmts.com/mathew/ Phone and Fax: 503 641 6127 > From: SN jef chippewa > Reply-To: > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 21:28:00 +0200 > To: > Subject: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down > > > can anyone give me reputable references for the > use of the bartók pizz with circle and line going > downwards? i come across this once in awhile and > as far as i can tell it is wrong, not just > because it too closely resembles the cello thumb > position symbol. but very common amongst german > composers for some reason. > > 1) i find stem UP in: > - bartók 5th quartet, universal edition vienna > 1936 UE 10736, p. 47 (scherzo m. 88) Same in the B&H edition 9044 page 252 > - bartók 6th quartet, boosey & hawkes USA 1941 > B&H 8437, p. 37 (mvmt. 3, m. 101) > > does anyone have other editions of these or other > bartók quartets handy to check for me? > > [interestingly i also fnd LH pizz at end of > string notated as double circle (one inside the > other) in the adagio molto (mm. 32-33)] > > 2) i find stem DOWN in lachenmann (breitkopf: > pression for one cellist, kontrakadenz for full > orchestra), whose notation is generally a very > reliable reference. have also come across it > stem down in other german scores... (one german > client mentioned he thought it was a finale > standard) > > > also if anyone has these references nearby, how is it notated in: > > BARTOK - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta (snap pizz. + gliss) > KODALY - Sonata for Solo Cello, Op. 8 (1915), does he use this technique? > MAHLER - Seventh Symphony, 3rd mvmt: "he provides > the violins with the footnote 'pluck so hard that > the strings hit the wood'." (wikipedia) > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
FWIW: All the Mahler scores are online at imslp.org. The notation in the 7th is f with the footnote "So stark anreißen, daß die Saiten an das Holz anschlagen." Not much help for the current discussion, I guess. (Bar 401) On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 2:28 PM, SN jef chippewa < shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote: > > can anyone give me reputable references for the use of the bartók pizz with > circle and line going downwards? i come across this once in awhile and as > far as i can tell it is wrong, not just because it too closely resembles the > cello thumb position symbol. but very common amongst german composers for > some reason. > > 1) i find stem UP in: > - bartók 5th quartet, universal edition vienna 1936 UE 10736, p. 47 > (scherzo m. 88) > - bartók 6th quartet, boosey & hawkes USA 1941 B&H 8437, p. 37 (mvmt. 3, m. > 101) > > does anyone have other editions of these or other bartók quartets handy to > check for me? > > [interestingly i also fnd LH pizz at end of string notated as double circle > (one inside the other) in the adagio molto (mm. 32-33)] > > 2) i find stem DOWN in lachenmann (breitkopf: pression for one cellist, > kontrakadenz for full orchestra), whose notation is generally a very > reliable reference. have also come across it stem down in other german > scores... (one german client mentioned he thought it was a finale standard) > > > also if anyone has these references nearby, how is it notated in: > > BARTOK - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta (snap pizz. + gliss) > KODALY - Sonata for Solo Cello, Op. 8 (1915), does he use this technique? > MAHLER - Seventh Symphony, 3rd mvmt: "he provides the violins with the > footnote 'pluck so hard that the strings hit the wood'." (wikipedia) > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
can anyone give me reputable references for the use of the bartók pizz with circle and line going downwards? i come across this once in awhile and as far as i can tell it is wrong, not just because it too closely resembles the cello thumb position symbol. but very common amongst german composers for some reason. 1) i find stem UP in: - bartók 5th quartet, universal edition vienna 1936 UE 10736, p. 47 (scherzo m. 88) - bartók 6th quartet, boosey & hawkes USA 1941 B&H 8437, p. 37 (mvmt. 3, m. 101) does anyone have other editions of these or other bartók quartets handy to check for me? [interestingly i also fnd LH pizz at end of string notated as double circle (one inside the other) in the adagio molto (mm. 32-33)] 2) i find stem DOWN in lachenmann (breitkopf: pression for one cellist, kontrakadenz for full orchestra), whose notation is generally a very reliable reference. have also come across it stem down in other german scores... (one german client mentioned he thought it was a finale standard) also if anyone has these references nearby, how is it notated in: BARTOK - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta (snap pizz. + gliss) KODALY - Sonata for Solo Cello, Op. 8 (1915), does he use this technique? MAHLER - Seventh Symphony, 3rd mvmt: "he provides the violins with the footnote 'pluck so hard that the strings hit the wood'." (wikipedia) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
