Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I agree with this point of view: once one has to sing, the octave resulting will generally be her/his natural one. A six year old boy, once attempting to sing a melody within a range between D4 and A4 (in treble clef), sung one octave above. Giovanni Andreani On 20 Feb 2012, at 18:34, John Howell wrote: > Well yes, I can see that. All I'm suggesting is > that it's unnecessary because TO A SINGER a plain > treble clef means exactly the same thing. But a > rubric like "All Sing" would take care of it and > leave no questions. > > John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
On 21 February 2012 04:46, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > >All I'm suggesting is that it's unnecessary because TO A SINGER a > >plain treble clef means exactly the same thing. > > but it isn't for singers, it is for string and perc players to "sing > along" to, and they could have any possible vocal range. > But as long as they are singing along, they *are* singers. Any orchestral musician ought to be competent enough to realise that he/she should be singing in his/her own natural octave. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I do get all this. I still think that it could be a neat convention. I've never seen an 8 clef with brackets. I'm certainly going to use the idea myself. Even if it takes a note at the start of the score having unadorned clef, 8 clef and (8) clef is useful I think. Steve P. On 20 Feb 2012, at 18:14, "David H. Bailey" wrote: > On 2/20/2012 12:19 PM, Steve Parker wrote: >> I think an (8) with the brackets is a nice and elegant clarification that >> the parts are for m and/or f. >> > > I wouldn't understand that at all -- when I see a sub-8 I think it's > specifically a male tenor part to be sounded an octave lower. I would > interpret the brackets around the 8 as merely a reminder that it's to be > an octave lower, just as we interpret accidentals with brackets to be > courtesy reminders. > > Since we're talking about a score, all that's needed for absolute > clarity is some explanatory text. And if the music is printed for the > audience to sing along with, people will choose their octave to sing in > regardless of the presence of that sub-8. > > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
On 2/20/2012 12:19 PM, Steve Parker wrote: > I think an (8) with the brackets is a nice and elegant clarification that the > parts are for m and/or f. > I wouldn't understand that at all -- when I see a sub-8 I think it's specifically a male tenor part to be sounded an octave lower. I would interpret the brackets around the 8 as merely a reminder that it's to be an octave lower, just as we interpret accidentals with brackets to be courtesy reminders. Since we're talking about a score, all that's needed for absolute clarity is some explanatory text. And if the music is printed for the audience to sing along with, people will choose their octave to sing in regardless of the presence of that sub-8. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
>All I'm suggesting is that it's unnecessary because TO A SINGER a >plain treble clef means exactly the same thing. but it isn't for singers, it is for string and perc players to "sing along" to, and they could have any possible vocal range. i think the (8) was an excellent idea, here is the finished version: http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/lochlomond_singalong-final.pdf thanks for everyone's advice! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
Well yes, I can see that. All I'm suggesting is that it's unnecessary because TO A SINGER a plain treble clef means exactly the same thing. But a rubric like "All Sing" would take care of it and leave no questions. John At 5:19 PM + 2/20/12, Steve Parker wrote: >I think an (8) with the brackets is a nice and >elegant clarification that the parts are for m >and/or f. > >Steve P. > >On 20 Feb 2012, at 17:00, John Howell wrote: > >> Not sure why the sub-8 is needed, or what it >> would accomplish. Vocal music has been printed >> in treble clef for indeterminate voices (or for >> BOTH male and female voices interchangeably) for >> many, many years, including every Broadway score >> I've ever seen. When I use a tenor-G clef I use >> it to specify the octave, but neither double bass >> or guitar parts have used it and everyone >> understands the octave transposition that's >> intended. >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> At 12:03 PM + 2/20/12, Steve Parker wrote: >>> Below is such a good idea it should become standard. It will be for me! >>> >>> Steve P. >>> >>> On 20 Feb 2012, at 11:40, Raymond Horton wrote: >>> Actually, perhaps a better clef suggestion for an instrumental player of unknown gender would be a treble clef with a very small 8 under it, but in parenthesis. Is there anything standard like this, I wonder? >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> >> -- >> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music >> Virginia Tech Department of Music >> School of Performing Arts & Cinema >> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences >> 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 >> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 >> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) >> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html >> >> "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." >> (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >___ >Finale mailing list >Finale@shsu.edu >http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I think an (8) with the brackets is a nice and elegant clarification that the parts are for m and/or f. Steve P. On 20 Feb 2012, at 17:00, John Howell wrote: > Not sure why the sub-8 is needed, or what it > would accomplish. Vocal music has been printed > in treble clef for indeterminate voices (or for > BOTH male and female voices interchangeably) for > many, many years, including every Broadway score > I've ever seen. When I use a tenor-G clef I use > it to specify the octave, but neither double bass > or guitar parts have used it and everyone > understands the octave transposition that's > intended. > > John > > > > > At 12:03 PM + 2/20/12, Steve Parker wrote: >> Below is such a good idea it should become standard. It will be for me! >> >> Steve P. >> >> On 20 Feb 2012, at 11:40, Raymond Horton wrote: >> >>> Actually, perhaps a better clef suggestion for an instrumental player of >>> unknown gender would be a treble clef with a very small 8 under it, but in >>> parenthesis. Is there anything standard like this, I wonder? >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > School of Performing Arts & Cinema > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." > (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
Not sure why the sub-8 is needed, or what it would accomplish. Vocal music has been printed in treble clef for indeterminate voices (or for BOTH male and female voices interchangeably) for many, many years, including every Broadway score I've ever seen. When I use a tenor-G clef I use it to specify the octave, but neither double bass or guitar parts have used it and everyone understands the octave transposition that's intended. John At 12:03 PM + 2/20/12, Steve Parker wrote: >Below is such a good idea it should become standard. It will be for me! > >Steve P. > >On 20 Feb 2012, at 11:40, Raymond Horton wrote: > >> Actually, perhaps a better clef suggestion for an instrumental player of >> unknown gender would be a treble clef with a very small 8 under it, but in >> parenthesis. Is there anything standard like this, I wonder? >___ >Finale mailing list >Finale@shsu.edu >http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
Below is such a good idea it should become standard. It will be for me! Steve P. On 20 Feb 2012, at 11:40, Raymond Horton wrote: > Actually, perhaps a better clef suggestion for an instrumental player of > unknown gender would be a treble clef with a very small 8 under it, but in > parenthesis. Is there anything standard like this, I wonder? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
Yes, we are arguing over nothing, but I had a point with mine! As I recall, the score had the melody jumping from one WW part to another, ending in a higher octave in the flute part. Some suggested that it was fine, the register would take care of itself. I disagreed (?) and said put one vocal line in TC, with the melody ranging from middle C up a ninth. If I were shown a melody to sing that jumped up an octave at some point, I would change octaves in the middle when I sang it - just like an instrumental part. I was concerned, not for the audience that, presumably would not see the notation, but for the players who would. Actually, perhaps a better clef suggestion for an instrumental player of unknown gender would be a treble clef with a very small 8 under it, but in parenthesis. Is there anything standard like this, I wonder? And John Howell is correct - vocal lines go above the first violin, not at the top. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 2:02 AM, Steve Parker wrote: > I was answering the top half of your post.. after that we seem to agree! > Maybe I'm misreading(?) but the rest of your post would make sense still > if you'd started with 'I agree'. > Or maybe we mean different things with > 'register doesn't matter'? > > Steve P. > > On 19 Feb 2012, at 01:52, Raymond Horton wrote: > > > Read my post, Steve. I read yours! > > > > Raymond Horton > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Steve Parker > wrote: > > > >> I'm not for one second suggesting writing choral music without regard to > >> register. I'm suggesting that the conductor who is reading the score is > >> unlikely to stop the audience singalong and demand that they sing in the > >> flute register. > >> It's a singalong for goodness' sake! > >> Everyone will sing along where it falls naturally for them. > >> > >> I still also thing it quite odd to introduce a spare staff for > 'audience' > >> above an instrumental line that carries it. > >> It is no clearer, just more pretentious. > >> > >> If resting players are supposed to sing I would write it properly in > their > >> parts (perhaps 3/4 size) in concert, treble clef. > >> Given that most orchestras contain a male somewhere, this would also not > >> be in the correct register. I doubt that they will be strict in > following > >> the written octave.. > >> If they are, give them a mic! > >> > >> Steve P. > >> > >> On 19 Feb 2012, at 01:35, Raymond Horton > wrote: > >> > >>> I disagree wholeheartedly with: > >>> > >>> 'the register doesn't matter' > >> > >> ___ > >> Finale mailing list > >> Finale@shsu.edu > >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
At 8:02 PM +0100 2/19/12, Giovanni Andreani wrote: >I would add a new part for the vocal line on the top score. > >Giovanni Andreani I find it interesting that some people automatically accept this placement of a vocal line. I do expect it of jazz writers, but there is no centuries-old tradition for them. But since the beginning of music publishing in choral-orchestra score, it has been very standard to place choral and/or solo vocal lines above the strings on the page, or between the upper strings and the basso continuo for many baroque works. And this is found with equal frequency in motets, masses, cantatas, oratorios, operas, and Broadway musicals. In other words, roughly centered on the page or in the system. It just makes sense to me because I'm so used to seeing it in so many different kinds of music. And that IS a tradition used by most publishers. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
At 9:12 PM +0800 2/19/12, Elsie Abellera wrote: >I AM NOT INTERESTED ABOUT ARTICLES ON FINALE AND >PLEASE STOP SENDING ME ARTICLES ON FINALE. >THANKS A LOT Elsie: You sent your several messages to the FINALE MAILING LIST, on which everything relating to Finale is open for discussion. It is up to you to unsubscribe from this mailing list, and it certainly makes us all wonder why you subscribed to it in the first place. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I would add a new part for the vocal line on the top score. Giovanni Andreani ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
>I disagree wholeheartedly with: > 'the register doesn't matter' m, not what i was suggesting at all. i meant a bass voice will sing in a register that works for him, not try and sing it in the same octave as a soprano voice, regardless of what octave the tune is notated in. i think it is clear in the context that it is a traditional tune and it is not necessarily written in an "absolute" pitch register. >"each person will decide on their register according to their own voice." ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
PLEASE STOP SCREAMING AND UNSUBSCRIBE YOURSELF FROM THE LIST At 21:12 +0800 2/19/12, Elsie Abellera wrote: >I AM NOT INTERESTED ABOUT ARTICLES ON FINALE AND PLEASE STOP SENDING >ME ARTICLES ON FINALE. THANKS A LOT ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I AM NOT INTERESTED ABOUT ARTICLES ON FINALE AND PLEASE STOP SENDING ME ARTICLES ON FINALE. THANKS A LOT From: Steve Parker To: "finale@shsu.edu" Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong Just actually looked at the score.. Definitely would be clear to put them above the top phrase. Are you definitely using the anglicised lyrics? Steve P. On 18 Feb 2012, at 15:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the > whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on > the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". > > where would you mark the lyrics in the score? > > i thought of placing them in an instrument that plays the melody, but > there is noone in the orch that plays the whole thing in the same > register... the flute and oboe play it but with an octave jump in the > 2nd half of the verse; the clarinets play the melody in the correct > register (in relation to the fl-ob in the 1st half) but only play the > 2nd half of the tune. > > would it be ok to place it between the oboe and clarinet? and does > it matter that the slurring in the instruments does not correspond > exactly to the lyrics? or should this be a separate staff > altogether? (this would solve one instance of a rhythm not indicated > in the music but sung in every version of the tune i heard, > 16th+dotted-8th on the first "bonnie") > > in the parts i suppose the singalong should be on a separate staff, > and above the instrument, with the lyrics between the staves? > > here is the page, needs adjustments for the lyrics, but you get the idea: > http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/lochlomond_singalong.pdf > > cheers, > jef > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
PLEASE STOP SENDING ANYTHING ABOUT FINALE From: Steve Parker To: "finale@shsu.edu" Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong Just actually looked at the score.. Definitely would be clear to put them above the top phrase. Are you definitely using the anglicised lyrics? Steve P. On 18 Feb 2012, at 15:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the > whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on > the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". > > where would you mark the lyrics in the score? > > i thought of placing them in an instrument that plays the melody, but > there is noone in the orch that plays the whole thing in the same > register... the flute and oboe play it but with an octave jump in the > 2nd half of the verse; the clarinets play the melody in the correct > register (in relation to the fl-ob in the 1st half) but only play the > 2nd half of the tune. > > would it be ok to place it between the oboe and clarinet? and does > it matter that the slurring in the instruments does not correspond > exactly to the lyrics? or should this be a separate staff > altogether? (this would solve one instance of a rhythm not indicated > in the music but sung in every version of the tune i heard, > 16th+dotted-8th on the first "bonnie") > > in the parts i suppose the singalong should be on a separate staff, > and above the instrument, with the lyrics between the staves? > > here is the page, needs adjustments for the lyrics, but you get the idea: > http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/lochlomond_singalong.pdf > > cheers, > jef > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I was answering the top half of your post.. after that we seem to agree! Maybe I'm misreading(?) but the rest of your post would make sense still if you'd started with 'I agree'. Or maybe we mean different things with 'register doesn't matter'? Steve P. On 19 Feb 2012, at 01:52, Raymond Horton wrote: > Read my post, Steve. I read yours! > > Raymond Horton > > > On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Steve Parker wrote: > >> I'm not for one second suggesting writing choral music without regard to >> register. I'm suggesting that the conductor who is reading the score is >> unlikely to stop the audience singalong and demand that they sing in the >> flute register. >> It's a singalong for goodness' sake! >> Everyone will sing along where it falls naturally for them. >> >> I still also thing it quite odd to introduce a spare staff for 'audience' >> above an instrumental line that carries it. >> It is no clearer, just more pretentious. >> >> If resting players are supposed to sing I would write it properly in their >> parts (perhaps 3/4 size) in concert, treble clef. >> Given that most orchestras contain a male somewhere, this would also not >> be in the correct register. I doubt that they will be strict in following >> the written octave.. >> If they are, give them a mic! >> >> Steve P. >> >> On 19 Feb 2012, at 01:35, Raymond Horton wrote: >> >>> I disagree wholeheartedly with: >>> >>> 'the register doesn't matter' >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
Read my post, Steve. I read yours! Raymond Horton On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Steve Parker wrote: > I'm not for one second suggesting writing choral music without regard to > register. I'm suggesting that the conductor who is reading the score is > unlikely to stop the audience singalong and demand that they sing in the > flute register. > It's a singalong for goodness' sake! > Everyone will sing along where it falls naturally for them. > > I still also thing it quite odd to introduce a spare staff for 'audience' > above an instrumental line that carries it. > It is no clearer, just more pretentious. > > If resting players are supposed to sing I would write it properly in their > parts (perhaps 3/4 size) in concert, treble clef. > Given that most orchestras contain a male somewhere, this would also not > be in the correct register. I doubt that they will be strict in following > the written octave.. > If they are, give them a mic! > > Steve P. > > On 19 Feb 2012, at 01:35, Raymond Horton wrote: > > > I disagree wholeheartedly with: > > > > 'the register doesn't matter' > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I'm not for one second suggesting writing choral music without regard to register. I'm suggesting that the conductor who is reading the score is unlikely to stop the audience singalong and demand that they sing in the flute register. It's a singalong for goodness' sake! Everyone will sing along where it falls naturally for them. I still also thing it quite odd to introduce a spare staff for 'audience' above an instrumental line that carries it. It is no clearer, just more pretentious. If resting players are supposed to sing I would write it properly in their parts (perhaps 3/4 size) in concert, treble clef. Given that most orchestras contain a male somewhere, this would also not be in the correct register. I doubt that they will be strict in following the written octave.. If they are, give them a mic! Steve P. On 19 Feb 2012, at 01:35, Raymond Horton wrote: > I disagree wholeheartedly with: > > 'the register doesn't matter' ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
At 8:35 PM -0500 2/18/12, Raymond Horton wrote: > >The song is in a very singable register from middle C up to D in the treble >clef. Write a separate staff in treble, sopranos and altos sing as >written, tenors and basses sing 8ba, very simple. Exactly what I meant, of course, and yes, they'll sort themselves out just like in a Broadway "chorus" score. It should be written AS a vocal line, which will put it right where it belongs. John >It's possible a few >mis-informed guys in the audience will try to sing 15ba, but that's their >problem. If you write it in the wrong octave, you will confuse many real >musicians in your orchestra who will try to sing it as you have written it. > > >No point in putting it in the wind parts, of course, for any wind parts you >need played, but some or most of the string and percussion players will >likely sing. > >Raymond Horton >Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra >Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC >Composer, Arranger >VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com > > >On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 11:02 AM, SN jef chippewa < >shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote: > >> >> >Just actually looked at the score.. Definitely would be clear to put >> >them above the top phrase. >> >> above the flutes? >> >> >I wouldn't care about register at all. >> >> true, i suppose each person will decide on their register according >> to their own voice... >> >> >Are you definitely using the anglicised lyrics? >> >> me, no, the composer, yes. >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >___ >Finale mailing list >Finale@shsu.edu >http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I disagree wholeheartedly with: 'the register doesn't matter' "each person will decide on their register according to their own voice." The song is in a very singable register from middle C up to D in the treble clef. Write a separate staff in treble, sopranos and altos sing as written, tenors and basses sing 8ba, very simple. It's possible a few mis-informed guys in the audience will try to sing 15ba, but that's their problem. If you write it in the wrong octave, you will confuse many real musicians in your orchestra who will try to sing it as you have written it. No point in putting it in the wind parts, of course, for any wind parts you need played, but some or most of the string and percussion players will likely sing. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 11:02 AM, SN jef chippewa < shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote: > > >Just actually looked at the score.. Definitely would be clear to put > >them above the top phrase. > > above the flutes? > > >I wouldn't care about register at all. > > true, i suppose each person will decide on their register according > to their own voice... > > >Are you definitely using the anglicised lyrics? > > me, no, the composer, yes. > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
At 4:29 PM +0100 2/18/12, SN jef chippewa wrote: >i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the >whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on >the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". > >where would you mark the lyrics in the score? Jef: The first question to answer is whether in fact the orchestra is to sing along or not! Or whether you're giving them a choice. Because the answers are different. And it isn't clear whether you're talking about just putting the lyrics in the score for the conductor's benefit, or in all the parts, but I'm assuming that you DO want them in all the parts and not just one part for one instrument. When I've done this (not often, I assure you, but sometimes it's exactly what you want, and I did it at least once in a Christmas Carol Singalong and again at the end of "Bill Bailey"), I have NOT given the instrumentalists a choice, because they'll never choose to sing if you do! I simply made what amounts to an instrument change at that point and wrote the melody WITH lyrics into every part, treble clef in concert pitch with a key change if necessary, with the lyrics below. Now in your score you would probably not want the violas, celli, basses, clarinets and bassoons singing, but I did that as well in one case, giving the tubas and one other part their own notes to PLAY and not giving them the lyrics at all. (You're also assuming contrabasses with a low C string, which is fairly rare outside professional symphonies, but that's your choice.) Using an ossia in the parts WILL give them a choice, but then who's going to make that choice, the players, the conductor or YOU?!! But if you WANT a choice, that's a good way to do it. And yes, you need to re-phrase the vocal line to match the lyrics and provide notes for all the syllables, like "be in" in 82 and "bonnie" in 86, and a slur on "low" in 81. The wind phrasing and string bowing would be confusing for singing and would be ignored in any case. (And no, you do NOT assume that Korean string players will know the words to a Scots folk song!) On the other hand, if you just want to give the conductor the cues he needs (to turn around and conduct the audience), and not put it into the parts at all (which is what it looks like you might want), I would simply add a vocal staff starting at 78 (perhaps labeled "Audience" or something similar) notated for unison voices in treble clef, not worrying about octaves (which are out of your control anyhow), and with the lyrics set below the notes as they would always be in vocal music. And I would place it in the score wherever you would normally place a vocal solo line--probably above the strings if I were doing it. John P.S. I do like what you've done in 87 with tied notes and 3 fermatas, which makes it very clear to all the players what's going on and saves rehearsal time. -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
SN jef chippewa wrote: > i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the > whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on > the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". > > where would you mark the lyrics in the score? You don't have to do it this way, but I'd add an extra staff to the systems where the lyrics are being sung, and place the melody in the desired range, and the lyrics in that extra score. In systems where the instrments of the orchestra are playing, but no singing is occurring, the staff assigned to the melody and lyrics can be hidden by any of the usual means. I think that assigning the lyrics to one of the existing instruments will imply to a conductor that such lyrics are to be sung by members of the the section under which the lyrics appear, and not necessarily by the whole group, or by the audience. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I would treat it in the same way as I would a soprano soloist and put the stave wherever you would normally put that line. In effect, those singing are your choir. Cheers, Lawrence On 18 February 2012 15:53, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > ok thanks, and place it between pc and vln1? > > >I would definitely use a separate stave for the voices. > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
If the orchestra don't play when he begin to sing, it could be a separate score (?), (same for everyone). but if the orchestra play and sing , I would mark the lyrics for all instrumentists that can play AND sing at the same time (example : not for bassonist !) Probably with a second voice for lyrics on their stave. good luck! Le 18/02/2012 16:29, SN jef chippewa a écrit : > i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the > whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on > the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". > > where would you mark the lyrics in the score? > > i thought of placing them in an instrument that plays the melody, but > there is noone in the orch that plays the whole thing in the same > register... the flute and oboe play it but with an octave jump in the > 2nd half of the verse; the clarinets play the melody in the correct > register (in relation to the fl-ob in the 1st half) but only play the > 2nd half of the tune. > > would it be ok to place it between the oboe and clarinet? and does > it matter that the slurring in the instruments does not correspond > exactly to the lyrics? or should this be a separate staff > altogether? (this would solve one instance of a rhythm not indicated > in the music but sung in every version of the tune i heard, > 16th+dotted-8th on the first "bonnie") > > in the parts i suppose the singalong should be on a separate staff, > and above the instrument, with the lyrics between the staves? > > here is the page, needs adjustments for the lyrics, but you get the idea: > http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/lochlomond_singalong.pdf > > cheers, > jef > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
Yes, above flutes. 'phrase' should have been 'stave'... Steve P. On 18 Feb 2012, at 16:02, SN jef chippewa wrote: > >> Just actually looked at the score.. Definitely would be clear to put >> them above the top phrase. > > above the flutes? > >> I wouldn't care about register at all. > > true, i suppose each person will decide on their register according > to their own voice... > >> Are you definitely using the anglicised lyrics? > > me, no, the composer, yes. > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
>Just actually looked at the score.. Definitely would be clear to put >them above the top phrase. above the flutes? >I wouldn't care about register at all. true, i suppose each person will decide on their register according to their own voice... >Are you definitely using the anglicised lyrics? me, no, the composer, yes. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
Just actually looked at the score.. Definitely would be clear to put them above the top phrase. Are you definitely using the anglicised lyrics? Steve P. On 18 Feb 2012, at 15:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the > whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on > the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". > > where would you mark the lyrics in the score? > > i thought of placing them in an instrument that plays the melody, but > there is noone in the orch that plays the whole thing in the same > register... the flute and oboe play it but with an octave jump in the > 2nd half of the verse; the clarinets play the melody in the correct > register (in relation to the fl-ob in the 1st half) but only play the > 2nd half of the tune. > > would it be ok to place it between the oboe and clarinet? and does > it matter that the slurring in the instruments does not correspond > exactly to the lyrics? or should this be a separate staff > altogether? (this would solve one instance of a rhythm not indicated > in the music but sung in every version of the tune i heard, > 16th+dotted-8th on the first "bonnie") > > in the parts i suppose the singalong should be on a separate staff, > and above the instrument, with the lyrics between the staves? > > here is the page, needs adjustments for the lyrics, but you get the idea: > http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/lochlomond_singalong.pdf > > cheers, > jef > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
ok thanks, and place it between pc and vln1? >I would definitely use a separate stave for the voices. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I would put them in whichever part looks best - usually near the top of the score - above is even better if the top instrument plays the tune. I wouldn't switch staves more than once. If there is an resting staff at the top they can be cued there. Where the rhythm or melisma are different to the part I would add small floating notes above/below the lyrics. I wouldn't care about register at all. Steve P. On 18 Feb 2012, at 15:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the > whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on > the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". > > where would you mark the lyrics in the score? > > i thought of placing them in an instrument that plays the melody, but > there is noone in the orch that plays the whole thing in the same > register... the flute and oboe play it but with an octave jump in the > 2nd half of the verse; the clarinets play the melody in the correct > register (in relation to the fl-ob in the 1st half) but only play the > 2nd half of the tune. > > would it be ok to place it between the oboe and clarinet? and does > it matter that the slurring in the instruments does not correspond > exactly to the lyrics? or should this be a separate staff > altogether? (this would solve one instance of a rhythm not indicated > in the music but sung in every version of the tune i heard, > 16th+dotted-8th on the first "bonnie") > > in the parts i suppose the singalong should be on a separate staff, > and above the instrument, with the lyrics between the staves? > > here is the page, needs adjustments for the lyrics, but you get the idea: > http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/lochlomond_singalong.pdf > > cheers, > jef > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
I would definitely use a separate stave for the voices. Cheers, Lawrence On 18 February 2012 15:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the > whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on > the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". > > where would you mark the lyrics in the score? > -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] orchestra + scottish trad. singalong
i am doing a short orchestral score and in the final section the whole orchestra (and i assume audience) are invited to sing along on the tune "Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond". where would you mark the lyrics in the score? i thought of placing them in an instrument that plays the melody, but there is noone in the orch that plays the whole thing in the same register... the flute and oboe play it but with an octave jump in the 2nd half of the verse; the clarinets play the melody in the correct register (in relation to the fl-ob in the 1st half) but only play the 2nd half of the tune. would it be ok to place it between the oboe and clarinet? and does it matter that the slurring in the instruments does not correspond exactly to the lyrics? or should this be a separate staff altogether? (this would solve one instance of a rhythm not indicated in the music but sung in every version of the tune i heard, 16th+dotted-8th on the first "bonnie") in the parts i suppose the singalong should be on a separate staff, and above the instrument, with the lyrics between the staves? here is the page, needs adjustments for the lyrics, but you get the idea: http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/lochlomond_singalong.pdf cheers, jef ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
