RE: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Hi Randolph, Does the odd expression placement behavior in 2009/2010 happen with files that have a lot of measure attached dynamic expressions? Or does it happen with both measure and note attached expressions? There's a few things we can do to make that transition easier. Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. 7615 Golden Triangle Drive, Suite M Eden Prairie, MN 55344-3848 Direct: (952) 818-3819 Sales: (800) 843-2066 Technical Support: (952) 937-9703 Fax: (952) 937-9760 -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Randolph Peters Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 11:00 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant Hi Justin, Welcome to our Finale discussion group. I hope that you will come to appreciate, as I have, the breadth of wisdom and experience of many of the contributors on this list. Christopher Smith is one such member. What he says about Finale should be given the highest attention at MakeMusic. I would like to raise another important issue that appears not to concern the Finale development team. And that is the problem of new versions of Finale not opening or translating older Finale files properly. If you have old (say pre-2003) Finale files that you want to edit in the current version, you need to open them in Finale 2008 to have even the remotest chance having your expressions present and in the proper place. Then you can open the files in Finale 2010 and work with them. Even by going through Finale 2008, there is still much lost in translation. [Some users have had better success opening first with Finale 2002, then 2008, then 2010.] The point is that Finale 2009 and 2010 don't have the ability to translate those older files that Finale 2008 has. Why was this capability lost? And what are we going to do when Finale 2008 doesn't work on our computers? [This is more of a Mac problem, but we've seen it happen with the switch to System X AND the switch to intel chips.] I've been with Finale since version 1 (as have many on this list) and we have a significant intellectual capital stored in our files. We need to be able to upgrade and edit those files, otherwise we lose most of the advantage of doing them on a computer to begin with. The subject line says minor rant, but this is major. -Randolph Peters Christopher Smith wrote: Justin, I notice you said you wanted to hear feedback about new features and improvements. Sorry to come down hard on you, but what most of us on this list are wringing our hands over are NOT more new features, but fixing the bugs that cost us so much in lost time. Some are longstanding bugs, some are introduced brand new accompanying the new features, and some break things that always worked correctly before. It's the latter that are so galling, and most likely to cost MakeMusic upgraders. How can we take a chance on paying for an upgrade when so many new bugs have accompanied the last few upgrades, and so few old bugs have gone unrepaired? I am sorry to give you such an impolite welcome to the list, but you DID invite comments. Christopher On Thu Apr 1, at ThursdayApr 1 10:02 AM, Phillips, Justin wrote: Hi David/Mark, We certainly do monitor as many Finale boards and mailing lists as we can. In addition, we do want to hear thoughts and feedback about our new features or improvements you would like to see in future versions. Sometimes we do miss things on these mailing lists/forums, so the best way to ensure your suggestions and thoughts are seen by us is to submit them via a support case at the link below: http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask Wish everyone the best, Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Mark D Lew wrote: So I ordered my upgrade tonight. Afterward the webpage asked me to participate in a survey, so I said OK. On the first page, it asks: Which Finale 2010 feature was the biggest reason for your upgrade? - Export lyrics - Measure Numbers - Percussion Notation - Music Education Worksheets - More Garritan Sounds - Chords - Easier Scanning - VST/AU Effects - Import/Export Graphics (.jpeg, .png etc.) - Automatic Rehearsal Marks - Broadway Copyist hand-written font None of those had anything whatsoever to do with my upgrade, so I didn't check any. But the stupid survey won't let me proceed without picking one. Screw that. Now I'm not going to finish their stupid survey. Pretty lousy survey design ... I was actually willing to comply, but not if I can't do so without them putting words in my mouth. What? You mean you didn't want to become a marketing-department tool to overpower the developers with? I'm shocked! If MakeMusic truly cared what drove the purchasing decisions of its customers (both new and long-time) it would simply monitor all the on-line groups such as this one, filter out the most common complaints (including long-standing ones) and actually do something about them, without the need for any we'll force you to give us one of our answers surveys which are truly meaningless. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Hi David/Mark, We certainly do monitor as many Finale boards and mailing lists as we can. In addition, we do want to hear thoughts and feedback about our new features or improvements you would like to see in future versions. Sometimes we do miss things on these mailing lists/forums, so the best way to ensure your suggestions and thoughts are seen by us is to submit them via a support case at the link below: http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask Wish everyone the best, Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of dhbailey Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 5:52 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant Mark D Lew wrote: So I ordered my upgrade tonight. Afterward the webpage asked me to participate in a survey, so I said OK. On the first page, it asks: Which Finale 2010 feature was the biggest reason for your upgrade? - Export lyrics - Measure Numbers - Percussion Notation - Music Education Worksheets - More Garritan Sounds - Chords - Easier Scanning - VST/AU Effects - Import/Export Graphics (.jpeg, .png etc.) - Automatic Rehearsal Marks - Broadway Copyist hand-written font None of those had anything whatsoever to do with my upgrade, so I didn't check any. But the stupid survey won't let me proceed without picking one. Screw that. Now I'm not going to finish their stupid survey. Pretty lousy survey design ... I was actually willing to comply, but not if I can't do so without them putting words in my mouth. What? You mean you didn't want to become a marketing-department tool to overpower the developers with? I'm shocked! If MakeMusic truly cared what drove the purchasing decisions of its customers (both new and long-time) it would simply monitor all the on-line groups such as this one, filter out the most common complaints (including long-standing ones) and actually do something about them, without the need for any we'll force you to give us one of our answers surveys which are truly meaningless. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Phillips, Justin wrote: Hi David/Mark, We certainly do monitor as many Finale boards and mailing lists as we can. In addition, we do want to hear thoughts and feedback about our new features or improvements you would like to see in future versions. Sometimes we do miss things on these mailing lists/forums, so the best way to ensure your suggestions and thoughts are seen by us is to submit them via a support case at the link below: http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask Wish everyone the best, Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. Justin, It appears from my archive of messages that this is your first post to the board. Welcome. A former employee has a personal presence on the board, but it's nice to see an official response. Partisans of S~ certainly use the official presence of a S~ individual on forums related to that codebase as a tool in proselytizing. NS Proudly and exclusively using Finale since 2k. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Justin, I notice you said you wanted to hear feedback about new features and improvements. Sorry to come down hard on you, but what most of us on this list are wringing our hands over are NOT more new features, but fixing the bugs that cost us so much in lost time. Some are longstanding bugs, some are introduced brand new accompanying the new features, and some break things that always worked correctly before. It's the latter that are so galling, and most likely to cost MakeMusic upgraders. How can we take a chance on paying for an upgrade when so many new bugs have accompanied the last few upgrades, and so few old bugs have gone unrepaired? I am sorry to give you such an impolite welcome to the list, but you DID invite comments. Christopher On Thu Apr 1, at ThursdayApr 1 10:02 AM, Phillips, Justin wrote: Hi David/Mark, We certainly do monitor as many Finale boards and mailing lists as we can. In addition, we do want to hear thoughts and feedback about our new features or improvements you would like to see in future versions. Sometimes we do miss things on these mailing lists/forums, so the best way to ensure your suggestions and thoughts are seen by us is to submit them via a support case at the link below: http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask Wish everyone the best, Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Hi Christopher, Not a problem at all! As you know, unfortunately some problems do get introduced into newer versions of the software that are not caught during our testing and beta process. When you encounter an issue, I highly recommend reporting it immediately via the case system I posted a link to before, or via our technical support line. Our agents report these issues and I verify then log them for our development team to review. In addition, if an old problem continues to appear for you in a newer version, I highly suggest doing the same. This will create higher visibility for the problem and we can try to tackle it for a maintenance release/new version. If you're curious about potential/old issues in a newer version, spending a few minutes with the demo version may clear up any concerns. In addition, our support staff is always available to field any questions about unresolved issues or for information on any new problems that may have been introduced with the release. Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Smith Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 9:51 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant Justin, I notice you said you wanted to hear feedback about new features and improvements. Sorry to come down hard on you, but what most of us on this list are wringing our hands over are NOT more new features, but fixing the bugs that cost us so much in lost time. Some are longstanding bugs, some are introduced brand new accompanying the new features, and some break things that always worked correctly before. It's the latter that are so galling, and most likely to cost MakeMusic upgraders. How can we take a chance on paying for an upgrade when so many new bugs have accompanied the last few upgrades, and so few old bugs have gone unrepaired? I am sorry to give you such an impolite welcome to the list, but you DID invite comments. Christopher On Thu Apr 1, at ThursdayApr 1 10:02 AM, Phillips, Justin wrote: Hi David/Mark, We certainly do monitor as many Finale boards and mailing lists as we can. In addition, we do want to hear thoughts and feedback about our new features or improvements you would like to see in future versions. Sometimes we do miss things on these mailing lists/forums, so the best way to ensure your suggestions and thoughts are seen by us is to submit them via a support case at the link below: http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask Wish everyone the best, Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Hi Justin, Welcome to our Finale discussion group. I hope that you will come to appreciate, as I have, the breadth of wisdom and experience of many of the contributors on this list. Christopher Smith is one such member. What he says about Finale should be given the highest attention at MakeMusic. I would like to raise another important issue that appears not to concern the Finale development team. And that is the problem of new versions of Finale not opening or translating older Finale files properly. If you have old (say pre-2003) Finale files that you want to edit in the current version, you need to open them in Finale 2008 to have even the remotest chance having your expressions present and in the proper place. Then you can open the files in Finale 2010 and work with them. Even by going through Finale 2008, there is still much lost in translation. [Some users have had better success opening first with Finale 2002, then 2008, then 2010.] The point is that Finale 2009 and 2010 don't have the ability to translate those older files that Finale 2008 has. Why was this capability lost? And what are we going to do when Finale 2008 doesn't work on our computers? [This is more of a Mac problem, but we've seen it happen with the switch to System X AND the switch to intel chips.] I've been with Finale since version 1 (as have many on this list) and we have a significant intellectual capital stored in our files. We need to be able to upgrade and edit those files, otherwise we lose most of the advantage of doing them on a computer to begin with. The subject line says minor rant, but this is major. -Randolph Peters Christopher Smith wrote: Justin, I notice you said you wanted to hear feedback about new features and improvements. Sorry to come down hard on you, but what most of us on this list are wringing our hands over are NOT more new features, but fixing the bugs that cost us so much in lost time. Some are longstanding bugs, some are introduced brand new accompanying the new features, and some break things that always worked correctly before. It's the latter that are so galling, and most likely to cost MakeMusic upgraders. How can we take a chance on paying for an upgrade when so many new bugs have accompanied the last few upgrades, and so few old bugs have gone unrepaired? I am sorry to give you such an impolite welcome to the list, but you DID invite comments. Christopher On Thu Apr 1, at ThursdayApr 1 10:02 AM, Phillips, Justin wrote: Hi David/Mark, We certainly do monitor as many Finale boards and mailing lists as we can. In addition, we do want to hear thoughts and feedback about our new features or improvements you would like to see in future versions. Sometimes we do miss things on these mailing lists/forums, so the best way to ensure your suggestions and thoughts are seen by us is to submit them via a support case at the link below: http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask Wish everyone the best, Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Oh boy. I hope this won't get ugly, because we all need a lot of good will between Finale users and MakeMusic. Justin, you might not realize it, but you just pored gas over a burning fire. If any group has reported the bugs, lobbied for specific improvements, meticulously examined the demos, used the web forms, and emailed their contacts at MakeMusic, more than people on this list, I would be very surprised. Too often, our expert opinions have been denied, not taken seriously, or deemed too specialized for the wider customer base. You would be surprised at how often our bug reports have been met with the response that no one else has reported the problem and that they can't duplicate the issue. When we report the same thing here (on the list), then we see how many others are going through the same thing and sometimes we find workarounds. We report those workarounds back to MakeMusic and they still remain a secret. And they mostly don't fixed in the next version. Have you seen those recent Domino Pizza commercials? Yes, we know our crust tastes like cardboard and the sauce like ketchup. So now we are doing something about it. Well, apart from the fact that it took Domino 30 years to figure that out, you do have to commend their honesty. The problem? It still tastes like crap. We've been here before, Justin. The problem is bigger than you think and it might be outside your power to do anything about it. But we do wish you luck and will try to help you whenever possible! -Randolph Peters Phillips, Justin wrote: [snip] As you know, unfortunately some problems do get introduced into newer versions of the software that are not caught during our testing and beta process. When you encounter an issue, I highly recommend reporting it immediately via the case system I posted a link to before, or via our technical support line. Our agents report these issues and I verify then log them for our development team to review. In addition, if an old problem continues to appear for you in a newer version, I highly suggest doing the same. This will create higher visibility for the problem and we can try to tackle it for a maintenance release/new version. If you're curious about potential/old issues in a newer version, spending a few minutes with the demo version may clear up any concerns. In addition, our support staff is always available to field any questions about unresolved issues or for information on any new problems that may have been introduced with the release. Justin Phillips Notation Product Specialist MakeMusic, Inc. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
On Apr 1, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Phillips, Justin wrote: We certainly do monitor as many Finale boards and mailing lists as we can. In addition, we do want to hear thoughts and feedback about our new features or improvements you would like to see in future versions. Well, speaking only for myself, I had no rant against the product itself. I've been quite happy with the old Finale and I haven't seen the new version yet. My only complaint was the dumb survey. There ought to have been an other or none of the above choice for that question. Or if there wasn't, then I should have been able to proceed while leaving the question unanswered. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
On 1 Apr 2010 at 10:59, Randolph Peters wrote: And what are we going to do when Finale 2008 doesn't work on our computers? [This is more of a Mac problem, but we've seen it happen with the switch to System X AND the switch to intel chips.] It's a potential problem for 64-bit Windows, too. It shouldn't be, but there can be problems even with Microsoft's own 32-bit applications running on 64-bit Windows. I would strongly recommend to anyone purchasing a new Windows PC that you go with hardware that supports 64-bit Windows and that comes with it installed. I'd also recommend loading up with a minimum of 8GBs of RAM so you can actually get the benefit of 64-bit Windows. One of the things I'm seeing is increasing use of virtual machines within 64-bit Windows. You can run a lot more of them simultaneously than you can with 32-bit Windows because of the 3.5GB limit of 32-bit Windows. While you're not likely to find an 8GB 64-bit-capable machine under $1000, you'll definitely find plenty of good machines in the $1000- 1500 range. I don't know that older versions of WinFin have any problems on 64- bit Windows, but I wouldn't count on it working flawlessly. Fortunately, if you get Windows 7 Professional, you can use the free downloadable virtual PC to run a free copy of WinXP, which should support 32-bit Finale for a long time. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant
Actually, I'd bet that non-OSX versions of Finale will run fine using some of the System 9 and earlier emulators. If I have time I'll try it out. But I've had HUGE success running System 8 program, System 7 and System 9 programs including some great multimedia ones. Downside would be I don't think printing works on it.though I haven't really tried. On 1 Apr 2010 at 10:59, Randolph Peters wrote: And what are we going to do when Finale 2008 doesn't work on our computers? [This is more of a Mac problem, but we've seen it happen with the switch to System X AND the switch to intel chips.] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
