Re: [Finale] OT: 18th - now 19th century trombones
John Howell wrote: [snip] (And in passing, are we correct in using the terms "Czech" Conservatory and Philharmonic, given that Czechoslovakia did not exist until it was created out of Bohemia and Moravia after WW I, and the "Czech Republic" is an invention of the late '80s or early '90s? What were they called in Dvorák's lifetime?) Dvorak was a Bohemian. The big conservatory was in Prague, also part of Bohemia. Most likely this would have been the seat of the major orchestra in the country as well, since it was a major European capitol. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: 18th - now 19th century trombones
Given the amount of research Shifrin has done, together with the music of the Dvorak 8th symphony (quite nonidomatic for slide trombone) and other Dvorak excerpts, I'll accept it, at least until your paper comes out. (BTW, is the "slide trombone specialist ... named a permanent instructor" in 1903 the one that Shifrin mentioned as teaching a year and then committing suicide?) All that matters, in this case, was what instrument was in Dvorak's head. That's hard to determine, but fun to try. For me, this all has bearing on the extremely unusual trombone writing in the Janacek _Sinfonietta_, written decades later but still a great challenge on slide trombones. If it were written for three or four of the four-valve Bb valve instruments, the parts would make much more sense. John Howell wrote: Hi, Christopher (and Ray). If only these question were that simple! Certainly the information on the Czech Conservatory is strong, but only if one assumes that (a) all symphony trombonists (or other instrumentalists) were hired out of that Conservatory and none were hired from other countries (unproven); and (b) that between 1860, when slide trombone was no longer banned from the Conservatory, and 1903, when a slide trombone specialist was named a permanent instructor, no one else was teaching slide trombone technique, perhaps as what we would call an adjunct. Which actually seems unlikely, given that the Czech Philharmonic started using slide trombones in 1896, and used them exclusively from 1901. And there also seems to be an assumption that Dvorák composed exclusively for that orchestra, which I suspect was definitely NOT the case, and a question of whether musicians in other orchestras in other countries would even have considered what the Praguers thought was proper!! Facts are such messy things, but they do make a musicologist's life interesting! This brief article (and thanks for the link) speaks not to the question of alto trombones, but to that of slide vs. valve trombones, but it's well worth knowing about for those interested in organology (which contrary to Mr. Shifrin's surprise is the accepted term used quite widely in musicological circles). (And in passing, are we correct in using the terms "Czech" Conservatory and Philharmonic, given that Czechoslovakia did not exist until it was created out of Bohemia and Moravia after WW I, and the "Czech Republic" is an invention of the late '80s or early '90s? What were they called in Dvorák's lifetime?) John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: 18th - now 19th century trombones
At 12:03 AM -0400 7/7/07, Christopher Smith wrote: Didn't he write quite a bit for valve trombone? Or some kind of weird hybrid piston-slide instrument? Kind of funny, because his parts are eminently playable on regular slide tenor and bass trombones (the stuff I've played of his, anyway!) Christopher Wait a minute, I got curious and looked it up. See here... http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/dvorak.php Hi, Christopher (and Ray). If only these question were that simple! Certainly the information on the Czech Conservatory is strong, but only if one assumes that (a) all symphony trombonists (or other instrumentalists) were hired out of that Conservatory and none were hired from other countries (unproven); and (b) that between 1860, when slide trombone was no longer banned from the Conservatory, and 1903, when a slide trombone specialist was named a permanent instructor, no one else was teaching slide trombone technique, perhaps as what we would call an adjunct. Which actually seems unlikely, given that the Czech Philharmonic started using slide trombones in 1896, and used them exclusively from 1901. And there also seems to be an assumption that Dvorák composed exclusively for that orchestra, which I suspect was definitely NOT the case, and a question of whether musicians in other orchestras in other countries would even have considered what the Praguers thought was proper!! Facts are such messy things, but they do make a musicologist's life interesting! This brief article (and thanks for the link) speaks not to the question of alto trombones, but to that of slide vs. valve trombones, but it's well worth knowing about for those interested in organology (which contrary to Mr. Shifrin's surprise is the accepted term used quite widely in musicological circles). (And in passing, are we correct in using the terms "Czech" Conservatory and Philharmonic, given that Czechoslovakia did not exist until it was created out of Bohemia and Moravia after WW I, and the "Czech Republic" is an invention of the late '80s or early '90s? What were they called in Dvorák's lifetime?) John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: 18th - now 19th century trombones
Christopher Smith wrote: The other interesting standard rep composer is Dvorak - quick - without looking: What kind of trombones did Dvorak write for? Didn't he write quite a bit for valve trombone? Or some kind of weird hybrid piston-slide instrument? Kind of funny, because his parts are eminently playable on regular slide tenor and bass trombones (the stuff I've played of his, anyway!) Wait a minute, I got curious and looked it up. See here... http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/dvorak.php Interesting looking instrument! I wonder what it'd play like. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: 18th - now 19th century trombones
Christopher Smith wrote: On Jul 6, 2007, at 11:39 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: The other interesting standard rep composer is Dvorak - quick - without looking: What kind of trombones did Dvorak write for? Didn't he write quite a bit for valve trombone? Or some kind of weird hybrid piston-slide instrument? Kind of funny, because his parts are eminently playable on regular slide tenor and bass trombones (the stuff I've played of his, anyway!) Christopher Right - valve trombones in Bb. Two tenor and one 4-valve bass. The 8th symphony has a very rapid scale passage at the end that would be much easier on valves. A few other licks in overtures. Valve trombones hung on longer in Czechoslovakia than anywhere else, even Italy. RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: 18th - now 19th century trombones
On Jul 6, 2007, at 11:56 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jul 6, 2007, at 11:39 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: The other interesting standard rep composer is Dvorak - quick - without looking: What kind of trombones did Dvorak write for? Didn't he write quite a bit for valve trombone? Or some kind of weird hybrid piston-slide instrument? Kind of funny, because his parts are eminently playable on regular slide tenor and bass trombones (the stuff I've played of his, anyway!) Christopher Wait a minute, I got curious and looked it up. See here... http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/dvorak.php ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: 18th - now 19th century trombones
On Jul 6, 2007, at 11:39 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: The other interesting standard rep composer is Dvorak - quick - without looking: What kind of trombones did Dvorak write for? Didn't he write quite a bit for valve trombone? Or some kind of weird hybrid piston-slide instrument? Kind of funny, because his parts are eminently playable on regular slide tenor and bass trombones (the stuff I've played of his, anyway!) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: 18th - now 19th century trombones
Shifrin, through all his European research, has reached conclusions about the use of alto vs tenor trombone in much of the standard symphonic rep. (described in that dissertation to which I linked you). Indeed, alto trombone use dropped off in the latter half of the 19th century, but it is not cut and dried. Brahms, for one, intended his first parts to be played on alto. But, as you say, many parts were labeled "alto" by publishers and were clearly not intended, or even practical for the instrument - Bruckner symphonies being the most obvious example, with the first trombone extending often to low E. One interesting reason for the changeover from alto to tenor is that many orchestras stopped supplying instruments. Players, faced with a choice, bought the more versatile tenor trombone. The other interesting standard rep composer is Dvorak - quick - without looking: What kind of trombones did Dvorak write for? RBH Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jul 5, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: I was never aware of such 80's belief. Up until this recent scholarship, all I ever "knew" was that a trio of trombones: alto in Eb, tenor in Bb and bass in F were the norm in Germany in the 1700s and early 1800s until replaced by two tenors and a Bb/F bass in the mid 1800s, more or less. Sorry, my bad. The situation was as you outlined it. My main point though, that scores (later than the period you mention) that call for alto trombone don't actually want an alto trombone, and that scholarly opinion has now moved 360° on the subject, stands. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
