Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[SN jef chippewa]

sorry, it is not a riot when there are important flaws in the 
programme that are being neglected so they can have a laugh (at our 
expense).  basically anyone who purchased the F25 upgrade contributed 
to supporting finale's insistance to not fix outstanding bugs.


At 8:52 PM -0500 12/8/16, Raymond Horton wrote:
>I think it is a riot! More power to them!
>
>
>On Dec 8, 2016 7:42 PM, "SN jef chippewa" 
>wrote:
>  > RESPECT! finale knows its priorities.  so development $ was spent on
>>  this -- and on writing a blog entry to explain the (ahem) 5 difficult
>>  steps to get a beer mug to show over your music!!! -- and we are
>>  still only back up to the speed of F2012 on the mac side?!?!?!?!
>>
>>  are you fucking serious?!
>>
>>  "Just for fun, we built a font that includes Patricia's symbols, so
>>  you can use them in any size or combination in your Finale files. We
>>  even put them into a Finale file modeled after Patricia's original"
>>  (4 nov on finale blog)
>>  http://www.finalemusic.com/blog/articulations-wish-use
>>
>>  well... not sure what to say here, other than "Thanks, [Finale], for
>  > reminding all of us that there's room for humor in music notation!"

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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[SN jef chippewa]

eah, right, that pizz might need some explaining.

>  just as i don't need to explain what a sharp or triplet or pizz is 
>to an amateur or professional musician playing a chopin nocturne...

-- 

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http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[SN jef chippewa]

hey john, no looking down the nose from this end. 
and BTW amateurs are not the only ones who don't 
always get paid ;-)

it is simply not my responsibility as a composer 
to teach amateur or untrained musicians.  that 
said, i firmly believe in doing whatever we can 
to make today's music accessible to whoever wants 
to get involved.  but the score produced by a 
composer whose main work is in the realm of 
professional performance should never cater the 
notation or score or materials to a lay audience.

if, however, a composer works with an amateur 
orchestra or musician(s) they could certainly 
provide a separate document as needed, but that 
document would provide largely or completely 
superfluous info for professional musicians, who 
may think the composer is being condescending or 
pretentious in assuming they don't know these 
things.

the amateur musician/orchestra has the 
responsibility of educating themselves about the 
practices they are interested in, just as much as 
the composer has the responsibility of making 
their performance materials optimal for the 
context they are expected to be used in.

the fact that i call my work professional and 
insist on a professional level of notating (and 
performing) my music says absolutely nothing 
against "non-professional" musicians.  in fact i 
have often heard far more interesting comments 
and perspectives on new music by non-musicians 
than by musicians, whose training for various 
reasons can encourage a certain conservatism in 
their knowledge and practice. (*)

but composers have to take for granted that the 
musician who plays contemporary music knows 
enough about the field to actually be able to 
play it.  just as i don't need to explain what a 
sharp or triplet or pizz is to an amateur or 
professional musician playing a chopin nocturne, 
i should not be expected to explain what a 
quarter tone or nonuplet or bartók pizz is to an 
amateur or professional musician playing music 
composed in the past half century.

this should by no means not be taken as an insult 
by non-professional / amateur / inexperienced 
musicians.  it is simply that my work must be at 
the highest quality if i ever expect to have a 
musician reflect that same quality in their 
performance of my work.

*) if you are interested in the longer version of 
this comment, check out my article 
"Practicalities of a Socio-Musical Utopia: 
Degrees of Œfreedom¹ in mathias spahlinger¹s 
'doppelt bejaht' (studies for orchestra without 
conductor)."
http://newmusicnotation.com/chippewa/texts.html

cheers,
jef


>To all you professional musicians, a very large 
>number of Finale users are NOT professional 
>musicians. I do quite a bit of notation for 
>non-professional singers. They really appreciate 
>the courtesy accidentals (by the way, I have a 
>good friend who sincerely believes they should 
>be called "intentionals" rather than 
>"accidentals".) Many of you regard the time you 
>spent learning to be a "professional musician" 
>entitles you to be more than a little proud. 
>Does it really entitle you to look down your 
>nose at an amateur who may have worked just as 
>hard to learn the rudiments of music without 
>ever getting a single dollar to show for it?
>Please don't take this note as an insult; I 
>really appreciate all the comments from this 
>group.
>John Witmer
>Clemson Downs Retirement Community

-- 

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http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
[FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise


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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[John Witmer]

To all you professional musicians, a very large number of Finale users are NOT 
professional musicians. I do quite a bit of notation for non-professional 
singers. They really appreciate the courtesy accidentals (by the way, I have a 
good friend who sincerely believes they should be called "intentionals" rather 
than "accidentals".) Many of you regard the time you spent learning to be a 
"professional musician" entitles you to be more than a little proud. Does it 
really entitle you to look down your nose at an amateur who may have worked 
just as hard to learn the rudiments of music without ever getting a single 
dollar to show for it?
Please don't take this note as an insult; I really appreciate all the comments 
from this group.
John Witmer
Clemson Downs Retirement Community

On 12/9/2016 12:25:00 PM, Raymond Horton  wrote:
some of you folks need to buy a sense of humor!

Raymond Horton
Composer, Arranger
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016


On Dec 9, 2016 9:38 AM, "Christopher Smith"
wrote:

> I don’t use parenthesized courtesy accidentals any more, either, because
> of lack of legibility. Yet, even a non-parenthesized one is kind of a
> confirmation of “yes this note is meant” since it would otherwise be
> superfluous.
>
> I guess all I’m saying is we’re writing for humans, not a rigorous,
> all-seeing machine. I see no problem with notating that way. I learned that
> partly from you!
>
> C
>
>
> > On Dec 9, 2016, at 9:24 AM, SN jef chippewa
> shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On issues of notation, I always take everything jef says as if it was
> gospel.
> >
> > are you sure that is a good idea? ;-)
> >
>
> Yes. No winky-face.
>
>
> > for new music i never use parentheses for accis.
> > if there is a need, i put the full-size acci; i
> > don't work with key sigs so very very rarely ever
> > encounter a case where it could be useful. my
> > fonts include them (accis + parentheses) but only
> > because i know this is standard in classical and
> > jazz notation.
> >
> > sure, there is no system that is failproof but i aim towards it...
> >
> >
> >> However, a parenthesized courtesy accidental is
> >> a prime example of a notation saying ³this is
> >> not a typo² and a non-parenthesized one is
> >> similar. I sometimes put the eyeglasses glyph
> >> over a passage that is likely to make musicians
> >> look twice, in order to make them look twice and
> >> improve the chances that they will perform it
> >> correctly (this is jazz notation). I think there
> >> are notations that are more authoritarian and
> >> less authoritarian. jef, you must deal with
> >> degrees of aleatoric-ness all the time, no?
> >>
> >> Christopher
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Dec 9, 2016, at 7:17 AM, SN jef chippewa
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> this issue of apologetic notation is one i come
> >>> across often, more commonly in north america but
> >>> also in europe. i can't speak for jazz
> >>> charts/musicians, but if you are working with
> >>> professional musicians, you MUST take it for
> >>> granted they know what the hell a bartók pizz is,
> >>> or a quarter tone.
> >>>
> >>> no musician working professionally today and
> >>> playing new music can justify ignorance of these
> >>> (and a host of other) basic things.
> >>>
> >>> what happens when the composer notates everything
> >>> is that the musician has to read a novel to
> >>> discover the one thing that is unique or special
> >>> to the composer/notation and given some don't
> >>> read the legend anyways (!) you are making it
> >>> even more likely your notation explanations won't
> >>> get read. at least until after the rehearsals
> >>> without the composer present.
> >>>
> >>> when you overannotate you can also come across as
> >>> condescending to musicians who know what the hell
> >>> a bartók pizz is. again, if they know it and see
> >>> it in your legend, they can easily assume they
> >>> don't need to read any further because you have
> >>> written a score for newbies or high school bands,
> >>> which you should NEVER do.
> >>>
> >>> if the musicians you are working with are
> >>> inexperienced (for whatever reason) provide them
> >>> with a glossary of terms as a separate sheet, but
> >>> prepare a professional score, with only the
> >>> ESSENTIAL information in it. a win-win
> >>> situation: whoever needs the supplement can read
> >>> it, whoever doesn't can make a paper plane out of
> >>> it to throw at the composer during the dress
> >>> rehearsal (i know someone this happened to...).
> >>>
> >>> side note: scans of fingerings from published
> >>> texts should NEVER be included in your score,
> >>> that is a copyright infringement. this is the
> >>> kind of thing that can be sent as a separate
> >>> sheet (along with your glossary, for example).
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> >>> 

Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[Raymond Horton]

some of you folks need to buy a sense of humor!

Raymond Horton
Composer, Arranger
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016


On Dec 9, 2016 9:38 AM, "Christopher Smith" 
wrote:

> I don’t use parenthesized courtesy accidentals any more, either, because
> of lack of legibility. Yet, even a non-parenthesized one is kind of a
> confirmation of “yes this note is meant” since it would otherwise be
> superfluous.
>
> I guess all I’m saying is we’re writing for humans, not a rigorous,
> all-seeing machine. I see no problem with notating that way. I learned that
> partly from you!
>
> C
>
>
> > On Dec 9, 2016, at 9:24 AM, SN jef chippewa <
> shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On issues of notation, I always take everything jef says as if it was
> gospel.
> >
> > are you sure that is a good idea? ;-)
> >
>
> Yes. No winky-face.
>
>
> > for new music i never use parentheses for accis.
> > if there is a need, i put the full-size acci; i
> > don't work with key sigs so very very rarely ever
> > encounter a case where it could be useful.  my
> > fonts include them (accis + parentheses) but only
> > because i know this is standard in classical and
> > jazz notation.
> >
> > sure, there is no system that is failproof but i aim towards it...
> >
> >
> >> However, a parenthesized courtesy accidental is
> >> a prime example of a notation saying ³this is
> >> not a typo² and a non-parenthesized one is
> >> similar. I sometimes put the eyeglasses glyph
> >> over a passage that is likely to make musicians
> >> look twice, in order to make them look twice and
> >> improve the chances that they will perform it
> >> correctly (this is jazz notation). I think there
> >> are notations that are more authoritarian and
> >> less authoritarian. jef, you must deal with
> >> degrees of aleatoric-ness all the time, no?
> >>
> >> Christopher
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Dec 9, 2016, at 7:17 AM, SN jef chippewa
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> this issue of apologetic notation is one i come
> >>> across often, more commonly in north america but
> >>> also in europe.  i can't speak for jazz
> >>> charts/musicians, but if you are working with
> >>> professional musicians, you MUST take it for
> >>> granted they know what the hell a bartók pizz is,
> >>> or a quarter tone.
> >>>
> >>> no musician working professionally today and
> >>> playing new music can justify ignorance of these
> >>> (and a host of other) basic things.
> >>>
> >>> what happens when the composer notates everything
> >>> is that the musician has to read a novel to
> >>> discover the one thing that is unique or special
> >>> to the composer/notation and given some don't
> >>> read the legend anyways (!) you are making it
> >>> even more likely your notation explanations won't
> >>> get read.  at least until after the rehearsals
> >>> without the composer present.
> >>>
> >>> when you overannotate you can also come across as
> >>> condescending to musicians who know what the hell
> >>> a bartók pizz is.  again, if they know it and see
> >>> it in your legend, they can easily assume they
> >>> don't need to read any further because you have
> >>> written a score for newbies or high school bands,
> >>> which you should NEVER do.
> >>>
> >>> if the musicians you are working with are
> >>> inexperienced (for whatever reason) provide them
> >>> with a glossary of terms as a separate sheet, but
> >>> prepare a professional score, with only the
> >>> ESSENTIAL information in it.  a win-win
> >>> situation: whoever needs the supplement can read
> >>> it, whoever doesn't can make a paper plane out of
> >>> it to throw at the composer during the dress
> >>> rehearsal (i know someone this happened to...).
> >>>
> >>> side note: scans of fingerings from published
> >>> texts should NEVER be included in your score,
> >>> that is a copyright infringement.  this is the
> >>> kind of thing that can be sent as a separate
> >>> sheet (along with your glossary, for example).
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> >>> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
> >>>
> >>> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> >>> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> >>> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW]
> http://twitter.com/neueweise
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Finale mailing list
> >>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Finale mailing list
> >> Finale@shsu.edu 
> >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale  mailman/listinfo/finale>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> 

Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[Christopher Smith]

I don’t use parenthesized courtesy accidentals any more, either, because of 
lack of legibility. Yet, even a non-parenthesized one is kind of a confirmation 
of “yes this note is meant” since it would otherwise be superfluous.

I guess all I’m saying is we’re writing for humans, not a rigorous, all-seeing 
machine. I see no problem with notating that way. I learned that partly from 
you!

C


> On Dec 9, 2016, at 9:24 AM, SN jef chippewa  
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On issues of notation, I always take everything jef says as if it was gospel.
> 
> are you sure that is a good idea? ;-)
> 

Yes. No winky-face.


> for new music i never use parentheses for accis. 
> if there is a need, i put the full-size acci; i 
> don't work with key sigs so very very rarely ever 
> encounter a case where it could be useful.  my 
> fonts include them (accis + parentheses) but only 
> because i know this is standard in classical and 
> jazz notation.
> 
> sure, there is no system that is failproof but i aim towards it...
> 
> 
>> However, a parenthesized courtesy accidental is 
>> a prime example of a notation saying ³this is 
>> not a typo² and a non-parenthesized one is 
>> similar. I sometimes put the eyeglasses glyph 
>> over a passage that is likely to make musicians 
>> look twice, in order to make them look twice and 
>> improve the chances that they will perform it 
>> correctly (this is jazz notation). I think there 
>> are notations that are more authoritarian and 
>> less authoritarian. jef, you must deal with 
>> degrees of aleatoric-ness all the time, no?
>> 
>> Christopher
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 9, 2016, at 7:17 AM, SN jef chippewa 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> this issue of apologetic notation is one i come
>>> across often, more commonly in north america but
>>> also in europe.  i can't speak for jazz
>>> charts/musicians, but if you are working with
>>> professional musicians, you MUST take it for
>>> granted they know what the hell a bartók pizz is,
>>> or a quarter tone.
>>> 
>>> no musician working professionally today and
>>> playing new music can justify ignorance of these
>>> (and a host of other) basic things.
>>> 
>>> what happens when the composer notates everything
>>> is that the musician has to read a novel to
>>> discover the one thing that is unique or special
>>> to the composer/notation and given some don't
>>> read the legend anyways (!) you are making it
>>> even more likely your notation explanations won't
>>> get read.  at least until after the rehearsals
>>> without the composer present.
>>> 
>>> when you overannotate you can also come across as
>>> condescending to musicians who know what the hell
>>> a bartók pizz is.  again, if they know it and see
>>> it in your legend, they can easily assume they
>>> don't need to read any further because you have
>>> written a score for newbies or high school bands,
>>> which you should NEVER do.
>>> 
>>> if the musicians you are working with are
>>> inexperienced (for whatever reason) provide them
>>> with a glossary of terms as a separate sheet, but
>>> prepare a professional score, with only the
>>> ESSENTIAL information in it.  a win-win
>>> situation: whoever needs the supplement can read
>>> it, whoever doesn't can make a paper plane out of
>>> it to throw at the composer during the dress
>>> rehearsal (i know someone this happened to...).
>>> 
>>> side note: scans of fingerings from published
>>> texts should NEVER be included in your score,
>>> that is a copyright infringement.  this is the
>>> kind of thing that can be sent as a separate
>>> sheet (along with your glossary, for example).
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
>>> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
>>> 
>>> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
>>> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
>>> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Finale mailing list
>>> Finale@shsu.edu
>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>> 
>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu 
>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale 
>> 
>> 
>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html 
> 
> 
> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com 
> 
> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise   |  [TW] 
> 

Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[SN jef chippewa]

>On issues of notation, I always take everything jef says as if it was gospel.

are you sure that is a good idea? ;-)

for new music i never use parentheses for accis. 
if there is a need, i put the full-size acci; i 
don't work with key sigs so very very rarely ever 
encounter a case where it could be useful.  my 
fonts include them (accis + parentheses) but only 
because i know this is standard in classical and 
jazz notation.

sure, there is no system that is failproof but i aim towards it...


>However, a parenthesized courtesy accidental is 
>a prime example of a notation saying ³this is 
>not a typo² and a non-parenthesized one is 
>similar. I sometimes put the eyeglasses glyph 
>over a passage that is likely to make musicians 
>look twice, in order to make them look twice and 
>improve the chances that they will perform it 
>correctly (this is jazz notation). I think there 
>are notations that are more authoritarian and 
>less authoritarian. jef, you must deal with 
>degrees of aleatoric-ness all the time, no?
>
>Christopher
>
>
>>  On Dec 9, 2016, at 7:17 AM, SN jef chippewa 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  this issue of apologetic notation is one i come
>>  across often, more commonly in north america but
>>  also in europe.  i can't speak for jazz
>>  charts/musicians, but if you are working with
>>  professional musicians, you MUST take it for
>>  granted they know what the hell a bartók pizz is,
>>  or a quarter tone.
>>
>>  no musician working professionally today and
>>  playing new music can justify ignorance of these
>>  (and a host of other) basic things.
>>
>>  what happens when the composer notates everything
>>  is that the musician has to read a novel to
>>  discover the one thing that is unique or special
>>  to the composer/notation and given some don't
>>  read the legend anyways (!) you are making it
>>  even more likely your notation explanations won't
>>  get read.  at least until after the rehearsals
>>  without the composer present.
>>
>>  when you overannotate you can also come across as
>>  condescending to musicians who know what the hell
>>  a bartók pizz is.  again, if they know it and see
>>  it in your legend, they can easily assume they
>>  don't need to read any further because you have
>>  written a score for newbies or high school bands,
>>  which you should NEVER do.
>>
>>  if the musicians you are working with are
>>  inexperienced (for whatever reason) provide them
>>  with a glossary of terms as a separate sheet, but
>>  prepare a professional score, with only the
>>  ESSENTIAL information in it.  a win-win
>>  situation: whoever needs the supplement can read
>>  it, whoever doesn't can make a paper plane out of
>>  it to throw at the composer during the dress
>>  rehearsal (i know someone this happened to...).
>>
>>  side note: scans of fingerings from published
>>  texts should NEVER be included in your score,
>>  that is a copyright infringement.  this is the
>>  kind of thing that can be sent as a separate
>>  sheet (along with your glossary, for example).
>>
>>  --
>>
>>  neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
>>  http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
>>
>>  shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
>>  new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
>>  [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
>>
>>
>>  ___
>>  Finale mailing list
>>  Finale@shsu.edu
>>  https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>
>>  To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>>  finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>
>
>___
>Finale mailing list
>Finale@shsu.edu
>https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
>To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
[FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise


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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[Christopher Smith]

On issues of notation, I always take everything jef says as if it was gospel. 

However, a parenthesized courtesy accidental is a prime example of a notation 
saying “this is not a typo” and a non-parenthesized one is similar. I sometimes 
put the eyeglasses glyph over a passage that is likely to make musicians look 
twice, in order to make them look twice and improve the chances that they will 
perform it correctly (this is jazz notation). I think there are notations that 
are more authoritarian and less authoritarian. jef, you must deal with degrees 
of aleatoric-ness all the time, no?

Christopher


> On Dec 9, 2016, at 7:17 AM, SN jef chippewa  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> this issue of apologetic notation is one i come 
> across often, more commonly in north america but 
> also in europe.  i can't speak for jazz 
> charts/musicians, but if you are working with 
> professional musicians, you MUST take it for 
> granted they know what the hell a bartók pizz is, 
> or a quarter tone.
> 
> no musician working professionally today and 
> playing new music can justify ignorance of these 
> (and a host of other) basic things.
> 
> what happens when the composer notates everything 
> is that the musician has to read a novel to 
> discover the one thing that is unique or special 
> to the composer/notation and given some don't 
> read the legend anyways (!) you are making it 
> even more likely your notation explanations won't 
> get read.  at least until after the rehearsals 
> without the composer present.
> 
> when you overannotate you can also come across as 
> condescending to musicians who know what the hell 
> a bartók pizz is.  again, if they know it and see 
> it in your legend, they can easily assume they 
> don't need to read any further because you have 
> written a score for newbies or high school bands, 
> which you should NEVER do.
> 
> if the musicians you are working with are 
> inexperienced (for whatever reason) provide them 
> with a glossary of terms as a separate sheet, but 
> prepare a professional score, with only the 
> ESSENTIAL information in it.  a win-win 
> situation: whoever needs the supplement can read 
> it, whoever doesn't can make a paper plane out of 
> it to throw at the composer during the dress 
> rehearsal (i know someone this happened to...).
> 
> side note: scans of fingerings from published 
> texts should NEVER be included in your score, 
> that is a copyright infringement.  this is the 
> kind of thing that can be sent as a separate 
> sheet (along with your glossary, for example).
> 
> -- 
> 
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
> 
> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
> 
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
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> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

Keeping this!

On Fri, December 9, 2016 6:08 am, David H. Bailey wrote:
> I can foresee the following dialog:
> Sideman (as the rehearsal grinds to a halt when he stops playing):
> What's this f-ing heart doing over the first note in measure 30?
> Leader: It means you're supposed to love that note.
> S: Huh?  But I hate the whole song, how the hell could I "love" a single
> note in it?
> L: Play it as if it's your favorite note.
> S: Like I'm supposed to like one note out of the whole stupid song?
> L: No, not "like" -- it's telling you to "love" the note.
> S:  Oh, like I can't stand being around my mother for more than 20
> minutes and don't really like her, but I still love her anyway because
> she's my mother?  That won't sound very good.
> L: No.  More like you've just met this gorgeous woman who doesn't mind
> hanging around musicians and she wants to go home with you after the gig.
> S: Oh I get it, play it as if I'm going to have sex with it.
> L: Well not really, more like you've just found your soul mate.
> S: So I'm supposed to marry the f-ing A-flat?
> L: Forget it, just ignore it.  Let's start over?
> Other Sideman:  What does this thing mean over my C in measure 15?
> L: That means it might be a typo.
> O.S.: You mean they actually printed the music knowing there was a note
> that might be a typo but they're not sure?  What should I do?  Play it
> or not?
> L (throwing score on the floor): Let's just scrap this whole piece
> altogether and take out "Mood Indigo."


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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[Steve Parker]

> On 9 Dec 2016, at 12:17, SN jef chippewa  
> wrote:
> 
> if the musicians you are working with are 
> inexperienced (for whatever reason) provide them 
> with a glossary of terms as a separate sheet, but 
> prepare a professional score, with only the 
> ESSENTIAL information in it.

I saw the BBC Singers read pages of obscure score directions, then sight read 
the score. Damn perfect as far as I could tell!

Steve P.

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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[SN jef chippewa]

steve, no nothing personal, just a generic rant, a spontaneous 
offshoot of david's comments 8-)

>If this is to me I'm militant about not overnotating.
>But, I also try to head off questions if possible. :-)
>Steve P.

-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
[FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise

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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[Steve Parker]

If this is to me I'm militant about not overnotating. 
But, I also try to head off questions if possible. :-)

Steve P. 

> On 9 Dec 2016, at 12:17, SN jef chippewa  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> this issue of apologetic notation is one i come 
> across often, more commonly in north america but 
> also in europe.  i can't speak for jazz 
> charts/musicians, but if you are working with 
> professional musicians, you MUST take it for 
> granted they know what the hell a bartók pizz is, 
> or a quarter tone.
> 
> no musician working professionally today and 
> playing new music can justify ignorance of these 
> (and a host of other) basic things.
> 
> what happens when the composer notates everything 
> is that the musician has to read a novel to 
> discover the one thing that is unique or special 
> to the composer/notation and given some don't 
> read the legend anyways (!) you are making it 
> even more likely your notation explanations won't 
> get read.  at least until after the rehearsals 
> without the composer present.
> 
> when you overannotate you can also come across as 
> condescending to musicians who know what the hell 
> a bartók pizz is.  again, if they know it and see 
> it in your legend, they can easily assume they 
> don't need to read any further because you have 
> written a score for newbies or high school bands, 
> which you should NEVER do.
> 
> if the musicians you are working with are 
> inexperienced (for whatever reason) provide them 
> with a glossary of terms as a separate sheet, but 
> prepare a professional score, with only the 
> ESSENTIAL information in it.  a win-win 
> situation: whoever needs the supplement can read 
> it, whoever doesn't can make a paper plane out of 
> it to throw at the composer during the dress 
> rehearsal (i know someone this happened to...).
> 
> side note: scans of fingerings from published 
> texts should NEVER be included in your score, 
> that is a copyright infringement.  this is the 
> kind of thing that can be sent as a separate 
> sheet (along with your glossary, for example).
> 
> -- 
> 
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
> 
> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
> 
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[SN jef chippewa]

awesome.

>I can foresee the following dialog:
>Sideman (as the rehearsal grinds to a halt when he stops playing):
>What's this f-ing heart doing over the first note in measure 30?
>Leader: It means you're supposed to love that note.
>
>
>I'm so glad that MM (or whatever the company's called these days) 
>spent time including this new articulation library. It's ever so 
>much more important than actually fixing problems with the software.

amen.
-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
[FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise

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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[SN jef chippewa]

this issue of apologetic notation is one i come 
across often, more commonly in north america but 
also in europe.  i can't speak for jazz 
charts/musicians, but if you are working with 
professional musicians, you MUST take it for 
granted they know what the hell a bartók pizz is, 
or a quarter tone.

no musician working professionally today and 
playing new music can justify ignorance of these 
(and a host of other) basic things.

what happens when the composer notates everything 
is that the musician has to read a novel to 
discover the one thing that is unique or special 
to the composer/notation and given some don't 
read the legend anyways (!) you are making it 
even more likely your notation explanations won't 
get read.  at least until after the rehearsals 
without the composer present.

when you overannotate you can also come across as 
condescending to musicians who know what the hell 
a bartók pizz is.  again, if they know it and see 
it in your legend, they can easily assume they 
don't need to read any further because you have 
written a score for newbies or high school bands, 
which you should NEVER do.

if the musicians you are working with are 
inexperienced (for whatever reason) provide them 
with a glossary of terms as a separate sheet, but 
prepare a professional score, with only the 
ESSENTIAL information in it.  a win-win 
situation: whoever needs the supplement can read 
it, whoever doesn't can make a paper plane out of 
it to throw at the composer during the dress 
rehearsal (i know someone this happened to...).

side note: scans of fingerings from published 
texts should NEVER be included in your score, 
that is a copyright infringement.  this is the 
kind of thing that can be sent as a separate 
sheet (along with your glossary, for example).

-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
[FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise


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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[David H. Bailey]

On 12/8/2016 8:01 PM, Steve Parker wrote:
> I’ve actually written ‘this is not a typo’ on parts…
>

I can understand using some sort of symbol to indicate that a note is 
definitely what you want and is not a typo.

I can't understand why a person would ever put a symbol to indicate that 
a note "maybe a typo."  Makes no sense to me -- if you put the note in 
the music, it's obviously not a typo, and if you didn't actually mean to 
put a particular note into the music you wouldn't know it and thus 
wouldn't be able to indicate that it might be a typo.

And tying this thread to the recent one regarding differentiating 
between 6/4 and 3/2 time and the potential for one or the other to lead 
to rehearsal disruption and lengthy explanations, how in the world would 
most musicians have any clue what these cutesie but meaningless 
articulations would mean?

I can foresee the following dialog:
Sideman (as the rehearsal grinds to a halt when he stops playing): 
What's this f-ing heart doing over the first note in measure 30?
Leader: It means you're supposed to love that note.
S: Huh?  But I hate the whole song, how the hell could I "love" a single 
note in it?
L: Play it as if it's your favorite note.
S: Like I'm supposed to like one note out of the whole stupid song?
L: No, not "like" -- it's telling you to "love" the note.
S:  Oh, like I can't stand being around my mother for more than 20 
minutes and don't really like her, but I still love her anyway because 
she's my mother?  That won't sound very good.
L: No.  More like you've just met this gorgeous woman who doesn't mind 
hanging around musicians and she wants to go home with you after the gig.
S: Oh I get it, play it as if I'm going to have sex with it.
L: Well not really, more like you've just found your soul mate.
S: So I'm supposed to marry the f-ing A-flat?
L: Forget it, just ignore it.  Let's start over?
Other Sideman:  What does this thing mean over my C in measure 15?
L: That means it might be a typo.
O.S.: You mean they actually printed the music knowing there was a note 
that might be a typo but they're not sure?  What should I do?  Play it 
or not?
L (throwing score on the floor): Let's just scrap this whole piece 
altogether and take out "Mood Indigo."

And people think that discussions about 6/4 or 3/2 would cause problems?

I'm so glad that MM (or whatever the company's called these days) spent 
time including this new articulation library.  It's ever so much more 
important than actually fixing problems with the software.


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[Raymond Horton]

I think it is a riot! More power to them!

Raymond Horton
Composer, Arranger
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016


On Dec 8, 2016 7:42 PM, "SN jef chippewa" 
wrote:

>
> RESPECT! finale knows its priorities.  so development $ was spent on
> this -- and on writing a blog entry to explain the (ahem) 5 difficult
> steps to get a beer mug to show over your music!!! -- and we are
> still only back up to the speed of F2012 on the mac side?!?!?!?!
>
> are you fucking serious?!
>
> "Just for fun, we built a font that includes Patricia's symbols, so
> you can use them in any size or combination in your Finale files. We
> even put them into a Finale file modeled after Patricia's original"
> (4 nov on finale blog)
> http://www.finalemusic.com/blog/articulations-wish-use
>
> well... not sure what to say here, other than "Thanks, [Finale], for
> reminding all of us that there's room for humor in music notation!"
>
> --
>
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
>
> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
>
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>
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Re: [Finale] finale development team - time spent...

[Steve Parker]

I’ve actually written ‘this is not a typo’ on parts…

Steve P.

> On 9 Dec 2016, at 00:42, SN jef chippewa  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> RESPECT! finale knows its priorities.  so development $ was spent on 
> this -- and on writing a blog entry to explain the (ahem) 5 difficult 
> steps to get a beer mug to show over your music!!! -- and we are 
> still only back up to the speed of F2012 on the mac side?!?!?!?!
> 
> are you fucking serious?!
> 
> "Just for fun, we built a font that includes Patricia's symbols, so 
> you can use them in any size or combination in your Finale files. We 
> even put them into a Finale file modeled after Patricia's original" 
> (4 nov on finale blog)
> http://www.finalemusic.com/blog/articulations-wish-use
> 
> well... not sure what to say here, other than "Thanks, [Finale], for 
> reminding all of us that there's room for humor in music notation!"
> 
> -- 
> 
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
> 
> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
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> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


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