Re: [Fis] social flow
Thanks Joseph. I agree completely. That is precisely why I wanted something more, and have yet to find it. On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.chwrote: Dear Roly, Dear Pedro, Thank you for taking this thread in a for me very interesting direction. As you know, interesting means what I find my logical system can confirm, improve, validate, etc. The two notes share one feature that one might criticize, namely, that they deal essentially with present, conscious material, whereas information flow almost by defintion seems to involve components that are absent, potential, unconscious, etc. Similarly, the application of the Square of Opposition in Roly's reference would at first sight appear to be explanatory, but on closer inspection, I find everything reduced back to binary logic, arrows in a box. What has to be added, *pace *Jakobson, is some notion of the actual dynamics of what Roly calls a mutual relateable framework. And let's not be too greedy: let's get the pairwise interactions right and then see where we can go with more complex ones. Cheers, Joseph - Original Message - *From:* Roly Belfer avi...@gmail.com *To:* Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2013 4:44 PM *Subject:* Re: [Fis] social flow Dear Pedro Thank you! there is some sort of synchronicity here: I was just recently thinking about Roman Jakobson and his 6 levels of semiotic analysis. Especially the *phatic expression*, as some kind of white noise that is necessary for the interpersonal informational handshake. That is, an infosphere - be it organic or more like artificial info networks - would need to have actants operate in a mutually relateable framework (even if it is only pairwise). The meaningless/senseless datum is important for establishing the lines of communication, and perhaps some emergent properties (such as intimacy, grouping, pre-communicative acceptance). Do you know of any quantified work re Jakobson? (I keep thishttp://webdelprofesor.ula.ve/arquitectura/rlacruz/publicaciones_archivos/dimensions_english.pdfaround for different purposes) Best Roly On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote: Dear FIS colleagues, Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents, topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant, performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents quite easily. I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially dovetails with the above: we are the content. best ---Pedro -- - Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ - ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] social flow
Dear Roly, Dear Pedro, Thank you for taking this thread in a for me very interesting direction. As you know, interesting means what I find my logical system can confirm, improve, validate, etc. The two notes share one feature that one might criticize, namely, that they deal essentially with present, conscious material, whereas information flow almost by defintion seems to involve components that are absent, potential, unconscious, etc. Similarly, the application of the Square of Opposition in Roly's reference would at first sight appear to be explanatory, but on closer inspection, I find everything reduced back to binary logic, arrows in a box. What has to be added, pace Jakobson, is some notion of the actual dynamics of what Roly calls a mutual relateable framework. And let's not be too greedy: let's get the pairwise interactions right and then see where we can go with more complex ones. Cheers, Joseph - Original Message - From: Roly Belfer To: Pedro C. Marijuan Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] social flow Dear Pedro Thank you! there is some sort of synchronicity here: I was just recently thinking about Roman Jakobson and his 6 levels of semiotic analysis. Especially the phatic expression, as some kind of white noise that is necessary for the interpersonal informational handshake. That is, an infosphere - be it organic or more like artificial info networks - would need to have actants operate in a mutually relateable framework (even if it is only pairwise). The meaningless/senseless datum is important for establishing the lines of communication, and perhaps some emergent properties (such as intimacy, grouping, pre-communicative acceptance). Do you know of any quantified work re Jakobson? (I keep this around for different purposes) Best Roly On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote: Dear FIS colleagues, Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents, topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant, performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents quite easily. I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially dovetails with the above: we are the content. best ---Pedro -- - Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ - ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] social flow
Interesting point, Pedro. Robin Dunbar's work is closer to a pure social bonding role. He argues, and has some evidence for, oral communication playing a similar role in our cultures as grooming does in chimpanzees and other species. He uses this to explain how we can have larger group sizes. To my knowledge neither he nor others have applied idea to the implications of writing, though I have read some speculation about internet communication on group sizes, but none of it seemed very scientific to me. I have some further things I can say about roles of communication with respect to bonding, content and meaning prescriptions, but I will keep them for now as I am way behind in a number of things I must do. Basically, though, verbal communication plays multiple roles the same time. John At 01:50 PM 2013/11/21, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote: Dear FIS colleagues, Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents, topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant, performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents quite easily. I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially dovetails with the above: we are the content. best ---Pedro -- - Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ - ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031 Http://web.ncf.ca/collier ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] social flow
Dear Pedro Thank you! there is some sort of synchronicity here: I was just recently thinking about Roman Jakobson and his 6 levels of semiotic analysis. Especially the *phatic expression*, as some kind of white noise that is necessary for the interpersonal informational handshake. That is, an infosphere - be it organic or more like artificial info networks - would need to have actants operate in a mutually relateable framework (even if it is only pairwise). The meaningless/senseless datum is important for establishing the lines of communication, and perhaps some emergent properties (such as intimacy, grouping, pre-communicative acceptance). Do you know of any quantified work re Jakobson? (I keep thishttp://webdelprofesor.ula.ve/arquitectura/rlacruz/publicaciones_archivos/dimensions_english.pdfaround for different porpouses) Best Roly On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote: Dear FIS colleagues, Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents, topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant, performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents quite easily. I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially dovetails with the above: we are the content. best ---Pedro -- - Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ - ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
