Re: Fjords & Ground Manners
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Right on, Tamara. This is no put down but knowing how to change behavior or not have good behavior change in a horse or any other pet is very important. There are horses who are just always good. Usually much older ones, and rare I think. Jean Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946-49 $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Fjords and ground manners
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Everyone- Several excellent responses already, but thought I had something to add. Groundwork is something of a specialty for me. It's so interesting and important, and so often overlooked. Yes, it does translate into riding/driving work quite directly. Today I enjoyed giving the first clicker training lesson to Eliza, Quinn the Fjord's lessee. Eliza is a good rider but was being bulldozed, literally, on the ground! In no time this behavior became a riding problem leading to the now-famous "Fjord bowling" incident. That day Quinn decided that galloping out the gate was a good idea, and did so several times. Eliza could not stop him. Robert parked himself and Fjord Tinn in front of the arena entrance as a barricade. Quinn put his head down like a bull and strike! Horses and riders went flying in all directions. So today we did some simple basics, targeting a riding crop (helpful for leading or otherwise positioning the horse's head) and free lunging. I was so pleased to see Eliza become quite skilled at the exercises, and quite confident! She could see how getting his attention, telling him what to do, and rewarding made a huge. With his attention focused, Quinn was a perfect angel. / )_~ /L/L Brigid Wasson SF Bay Area, CA www.Brigid.Clickryder.com
Re: Fjords & Ground Manners
This message is from: Tamara Rousso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks to all for their input. It is good to know that I need not reject a horse just based on pushiness, but also that it is possible to get one without it. It sounds like I need more training myself before I take on a Fjord. Thanks again, Tamara in So Cal where it is cloudy and misty, lows in the +40's and we call this winter... --- bolinsj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: bolinsj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I also would not worry too much about the horse not > backing easilly. We > have had several horses come to us over the years > who would not back > readily. After some ground training and getting > accustomed to us, we > had better success. It just takes lots of baby > steps for some horses > before they feel comfortable. The problem with some > of these horses is > that they had never really been asked to back. The > problem with another > was a lack of trust. Face it, you can't really > force a horse to do > anything. All you do is ask for resistance in > return. > For horses that we had who would not 'worm', we put > the wormer on their > food and left them locked in the barn until the food > was eaten. It was > a nuisance, but it worked ok. My Fjords actually > suck the wormer out of > the tubes (especially the Strongid). Even our Arab, > who after 26 years > is still a little head shy is now able to accept the > wormer tube after > just a little talking. > > Martie in MD - mud mud mud > > > > >Hi Tamara, > > > >It seems just about any type of horse will dive for > fresh green grass, if > >given the opportunity, and fjords maybe a little > more so. > > > .. > > > > > Yes, they have heavy necks, but doesn't make them > more difficult to work > >with. If they want to set the neck against you, > you do have to have the finesse > >to not let the horse think it can do it. > > > >What I've learned from Thomas Ritter, a great > dressage instructor, is that > >you need to be precise with what you ask of a > horse. When you ask it to do > >something, you need to expect the horse to comply. > And if it doesn't immediately, > >ask again, a bit more firmly. If the horse still > doesn't comply (but > >understands and is capable of complying) then the > horse gets a reprimand. And then > >you can go right back to being friends with said > horse again, after compliance > >or at least an attempt to comply. = ***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^*** If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things. Rene Descart
Re: Fjords & Ground Manners
This message is from: bolinsj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I also would not worry too much about the horse not backing easilly. We have had several horses come to us over the years who would not back readily. After some ground training and getting accustomed to us, we had better success. It just takes lots of baby steps for some horses before they feel comfortable. The problem with some of these horses is that they had never really been asked to back. The problem with another was a lack of trust. Face it, you can't really force a horse to do anything. All you do is ask for resistance in return. For horses that we had who would not 'worm', we put the wormer on their food and left them locked in the barn until the food was eaten. It was a nuisance, but it worked ok. My Fjords actually suck the wormer out of the tubes (especially the Strongid). Even our Arab, who after 26 years is still a little head shy is now able to accept the wormer tube after just a little talking. Martie in MD - mud mud mud Hi Tamara, It seems just about any type of horse will dive for fresh green grass, if given the opportunity, and fjords maybe a little more so. .. Yes, they have heavy necks, but doesn't make them more difficult to work with. If they want to set the neck against you, you do have to have the finesse to not let the horse think it can do it. What I've learned from Thomas Ritter, a great dressage instructor, is that you need to be precise with what you ask of a horse. When you ask it to do something, you need to expect the horse to comply. And if it doesn't immediately, ask again, a bit more firmly. If the horse still doesn't comply (but understands and is capable of complying) then the horse gets a reprimand. And then you can go right back to being friends with said horse again, after compliance or at least an attempt to comply.
Re: Fjords & Ground Manners
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regarding Fjords and grass... The two therapy ponies that introduced me to the Fjord world were both notoriously hard to lead, and would dive for grass. I NEVER had a problem with them, because the first time they tried it with me I made it clear it was not acceptable. I could get either of them to stand on the end of the lead (about eight feet from me) in a field with knee-high grass and they never even tried to drop their heads; they knew that I wouldn't allow it. My own two Fjords would also never try anything like that. It's just a matter of teaching them what's acceptable and what's not - a few quick jerks on the lead (WITHOUT a chain, mind you) is all it took to teach the "old boys". Fjords are smart...sometimes too smart...and if they think they can get away with something, they'll often try. You just have to be smarter than they are, anticipate their next move, and make them glad they did what you asked by rewarding them. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO
Re: Re:Fjords and ground manners
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tamara, all the things you mentioned are only behavior problems. Some people use punishment to train and I believe the fjord then sets their jaw. I do not do clicker training but this is quite successful. In the hands of a good trainer she would improve rapidly. My boy is testy because he was mistreated and spoiled at his last of many habitats. Here he still likes to be pushy and if he over steps his bounds he does get a slap. But he is the safest ride one can have, despite his other memories. No matter how well trained the horse may be when you get it unless you know how to handle a horse some will digress to the behavior you describe, and worse sometimes. My 17 hand Trakehner resists anyone approaching his nose to tube. No amt of clicker training, reward or otherwise can change him but if I threaten him with the word "whip" he brings his head down just a bit and I reach up, up and up and put my hand in his mouth between his teeth and he comes right down. Does mean sometimes I get a handful of his worm meds. I do not imply that I use the whip to train my horses but bad behavior calls for it. This rarely happens as just the threat can work. The big boy I have had all his life, but Gunnar had been through many hands before arriving here a roaring and obstinate beastie. Today he even allows a kiss, but does reman rather aloof. I think he still believes he will be sent away again. Do not believe the "stubborn" myth by trainers. Most of them force horses and do not recognize the intelligence they are dealing with in the fjord. Jean Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946-49 $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Fjords and ground manners
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Tamara Rousso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The horse I saw yesterday and didn't buy was not a bad > horse at all. Very sweet and according to the owner > good "most of the time" on lead, but every once in a > while "will go for grass" and for that reason needed > to be led with a stud chain. She hated having > anything in her mouth which meant worming her required > trickery. And when it was time to *back* the horse > into her tie-down area she was quite resistant and > took a good deal of persistance on the part of her > owner and my husband. Is this typical Fjord behavior? >I was told by a trainer last night that I should > expect any Fjord to be "pushy" on the ground because > of their strength and heavy neck muscles, but that it > wouldn't transfer to being in the saddle. I would say that the behavior you saw was typical---for a Fjord that had been permitted to control the agenda. However, I've found Fjords to be highly trainable, even when they've practiced running the show for quite a while. It just requires consistently setting boundaries, and seeing that they live up to your expectations of them. I am by no means a "professional trainer", but I've been able to convince the 3 Fjords that I have owned (all purchased as adults) to walk politely on a lead, to take worm paste without even being haltered, and to back on command. True, it took ME a while to learn how to get them to do it, and my husband doesn't always get the results that I do. (I never was much good at husband-training) As for in-hand behavior carrying over to under saddle behavior, I would expect them to be correlated. True, when you're riding, you have heels and possibly even a crop to help "motivate" compliance, but an animal that sets its neck and bulls away from you on the ground is likely to set its neck and ignore your steering commands when under saddle (or harness). That's why its so important to fix problems with the ground work before pushing on to "higher level" training! Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: Fjords & Ground Manners
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Tamara, It seems just about any type of horse will dive for fresh green grass, if given the opportunity, and fjords maybe a little more so. I had a problem with this when somebody in my household (who shall remain nameless for this email!) would allow the horses to dive for grass. All it took for me to remedy the situation was to have a stern talk with the culprit who allowed this behaviour, and a couple short little jerks on the leadrope when the horses attempted this with me. Now all the horses, yearling included, are very well behaved. I certainly would not pass up on buying a horse because of this easy to fix habit. Yes, they have heavy necks, but doesn't make them more difficult to work with. If they want to set the neck against you, you do have to have the finesse to not let the horse think it can do it. What I've learned from Thomas Ritter, a great dressage instructor, is that you need to be precise with what you ask of a horse. When you ask it to do something, you need to expect the horse to comply. And if it doesn't immediately, ask again, a bit more firmly. If the horse still doesn't comply (but understands and is capable of complying) then the horse gets a reprimand. And then you can go right back to being friends with said horse again, after compliance or at least an attempt to comply. If the horse hates having something in its mouth, as the mare you looked at did, I'd get a dentist to see if there were tooth problems. If not, before worming time, I'd get the horse used to a syringe with molasses, applesauce or some other treat. You'll find the horse looking forward to the worming syringe. I don't exactly know what you meant about having to back the horse into a tie down area, but if the horse was resistant, I'd find out why. A lot of resistance you see in horses is owner-operator error. And did I see a lot of that the other day! Resistance and owner-operator error. I signed up to join the local mounted sheriff's posse, and had my first ride with them on Friday night. I was horrified by what I saw! The typical "yahoo" attitude, okay, I guess I could get around some of that. The riders didn't have very good arena etiquette, but what really got me was the lady on the 3 yo QH. It was crowhopping, spooking, bolting, etc. Anything to get away from the rider. The rider thought the best way to deal with this was to crank the standing martingale tighter. So the horse tossed her head even more. Which made the rider SLAP the side of the horse's face. Oh woe! This happened more than once. I then found out that this terrorist rider had taken the same horse (that she raised from a foal) to the same arena as a yearling, and let a 7 year old child race around the arena on it Let me tell you, Friday night was a real rodeo, and I'm not sure how well I'll fit into this group. But my fjord was stellar, and even better than I expected. She looked as horrified as I was, and I could feel her tense up under me, as people galloped as fast as they could right on us, horses were screaming (the one with the tie down), people were getting bucked off. I just went about my regular routine with her, getting her soft and supple, and got her to focus on me. She then realized that I was indeed in control, and I wouldn't let anything happen to her. We didn't do our best work, with all the distractions, but we both buckled down and practiced our dressage lessons. Pamela http://hometown.aol.com/northhorse/index.html";>Northern Holiday Horses
Re:Fjords and ground manners
This message is from: Tamara Rousso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would like to expand on this subject just a bit. The horse I saw yesterday and didn't buy was not a bad horse at all. Very sweet and according to the owner good "most of the time" on lead, but every once in a while "will go for grass" and for that reason needed to be led with a stud chain. She hated having anything in her mouth which meant worming her required trickery. And when it was time to *back* the horse into her tie-down area she was quite resistant and took a good deal of persistance on the part of her owner and my husband. Is this typical Fjord behavior? I was told by a trainer last night that I should expect any Fjord to be "pushy" on the ground because of their strength and heavy neck muscles, but that it wouldn't transfer to being in the saddle. I would like to know from those with a lot of experience whether they have found that to be true or not. Tamara --- Sofia jagbrant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: "Sofia jagbrant" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > It sounds like a good ideé. Good luck! > > Regards Sofia > - Original Message - > From: "Tamara Rousso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 11:21 PM > Subject: 17 year old mare > > > > This message is from: Tamara Rousso > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Thank you Sophia. I ended up not getting the > horse. > > She is very sweet, but her ground manners would > > required a higher skill level than I have. I > decided > > I would rather keep saving and wait until I can > buy a > > horse that has been trained well enough for me to > > handle. > > > > Tamara > > > > --- Sofia jagbrant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > This message is from: "Sofia jagbrant" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > In Swedish ears it sound to be much money for a > 17 > > > old year old horse, who, > > > what I understand, has not very fantastic > pedigree, > > > give exellent foals, or > > > is a star on riding or driving. In Sweden could > you > > > got a young horse, with > > > good pedigree, and who is good at riding and > driving > > > for that price. But you > > > live don't in Sweden, there we have had low > > > fjordprices in 10-20 years > > > (because fjords was born). But now is the price > for > > > our wonderful fjords, > > > going up. Many people understand what a nice > horse > > > they are and because it > > > is not born so many fjords wítch it does on the > > > 1980, our price and demand > > > for fjords goes up. It is great, but many people > who > > > compete want not buy a > > > fjord, only because they are a fjord. My friend > has > > > a great fjordjumper (136 > > > cm high) witch have won a 110 cm compete with > > > sportponnies on a high level, > > > and he is even a good drivinghorse, > disablehorse. If > > > this pony would be a > > > brown maybe the owner would got 7000 $, if she > would > > > to sell him. But now > > > she did'nt only because he have the "wrong" > colur. > > > This is a shame. > > > > > > My point, is that even if I think it is much > money > > > for the horse in my ears, > > > maybe it it not that there you live. Becouse it > gets > > > not so many fjords > > > there. > > > > > > Sorry for my English today, but I hope you > > > understand my point. > > > > > > Regards// Sofia > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Tamara Rousso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 6:40 PM > > > Subject: value question > > > > > > > > > > This message is from: Tamara Rousso > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > This seems like a reasonable price to me for > this > > > > mare, but I would like input from breeders. > We > > > are > > > > unable to purchase a younger horse because > $3500 > > > is > > > > the max I can go. We are not interested in > > > breeding > > > > this mare - only in a confidence building > horse > > > for > > > > my 11 year old and a horse for me when I learn > to > > > > ride. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=370921 > > > > > > > > For those not wanting to take time to go to > the > > > ad: > > > > She is 17 years old and has been used by all > level > > > of > > > > riders. I have not been to see her yet, but > the > > > owner > > > > says her back is strong. She has had 10 > foals. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your help, > > > > Tamara > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > ***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^*** > > > > If you would be a real seeker after truth, it > is > > > necessary that at least > > > > once in your life you doubt, as far as > possible, > > > all things. Rene Descart > > > > = > > > ***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^*** > > If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is > necessary that at least > > once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, > all things. Rene Descart = ***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^*** If yo
Re: 17 year old mare
This message is from: "Sofia jagbrant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It sounds like a good ideé. Good luck! Regards Sofia - Original Message - From: "Tamara Rousso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 11:21 PM Subject: 17 year old mare > This message is from: Tamara Rousso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Thank you Sophia. I ended up not getting the horse. > She is very sweet, but her ground manners would > required a higher skill level than I have. I decided > I would rather keep saving and wait until I can buy a > horse that has been trained well enough for me to > handle. > > Tamara > > --- Sofia jagbrant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > This message is from: "Sofia jagbrant" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > In Swedish ears it sound to be much money for a 17 > > old year old horse, who, > > what I understand, has not very fantastic pedigree, > > give exellent foals, or > > is a star on riding or driving. In Sweden could you > > got a young horse, with > > good pedigree, and who is good at riding and driving > > for that price. But you > > live don't in Sweden, there we have had low > > fjordprices in 10-20 years > > (because fjords was born). But now is the price for > > our wonderful fjords, > > going up. Many people understand what a nice horse > > they are and because it > > is not born so many fjords wítch it does on the > > 1980, our price and demand > > for fjords goes up. It is great, but many people who > > compete want not buy a > > fjord, only because they are a fjord. My friend has > > a great fjordjumper (136 > > cm high) witch have won a 110 cm compete with > > sportponnies on a high level, > > and he is even a good drivinghorse, disablehorse. If > > this pony would be a > > brown maybe the owner would got 7000 $, if she would > > to sell him. But now > > she did'nt only because he have the "wrong" colur. > > This is a shame. > > > > My point, is that even if I think it is much money > > for the horse in my ears, > > maybe it it not that there you live. Becouse it gets > > not so many fjords > > there. > > > > Sorry for my English today, but I hope you > > understand my point. > > > > Regards// Sofia > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Tamara Rousso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 6:40 PM > > Subject: value question > > > > > > > This message is from: Tamara Rousso > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > This seems like a reasonable price to me for this > > > mare, but I would like input from breeders. We > > are > > > unable to purchase a younger horse because $3500 > > is > > > the max I can go. We are not interested in > > breeding > > > this mare - only in a confidence building horse > > for > > > my 11 year old and a horse for me when I learn to > > > ride. > > > > > > > > > http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=370921 > > > > > > For those not wanting to take time to go to the > > ad: > > > She is 17 years old and has been used by all level > > of > > > riders. I have not been to see her yet, but the > > owner > > > says her back is strong. She has had 10 foals. > > > > > > Thanks for your help, > > > Tamara > > > > > > = > > > > > > ***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^*** > > > If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is > > necessary that at least > > > once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, > > all things. Rene Descart > > = > ***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^***^^*** > If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least > once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things. Rene Descart
