Re: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Heather Baskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Jen My gelding is almost a duplicate of what you have described below. Creamy colour with red dorsal stripe. His dorsal stripe in the mane and tail is not black - more of a brownish-black. He does have darker red markings on his face (blaze like and the Njal spots). His legs are not black, they are more greyish points. I just considered him a light brown dun. His 3/4 brother on the other hand - is a dark brown dun (very dark points, loads of black in his forelock, mane and tail. Heather - Original Message This message is from: jen frame [EMAIL PROTECTED] a lovely light brown--more yellow or creamy tea colored. Her mane and tail have the dark stripe, and the stripe down her back is red. Her primitive markings on her legs are a slightly darker and more reddish color than her body, and her points are just kind of darker--sort of grey, sort of reddish, certainly not black points. __ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Cherrie Nolden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Corinne, Look at the genetics article I wrote for the Spring 2008 Fjord Herald (Issue 86). There are three links to genetic testing companies on page 53 of the Herald. I usually use Animal Genetics out of Florida, as they only charge $25 per color test and send an offical certificate of the test results. Pull some hairs and send them in to test your little colt for the Agouti gene to find out if he is gray or brown dun. A brown dun will have an Agouti genotype of AA or Aa, whereas a gray dun will have a genotype of aa. Cherrie 1dr Fjords --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Willows Edge Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Willows Edge Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] How can I tell if he will be grey or if he is just a lovely brown? Thanks!! Corinne Logan The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Cherrie Nolden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Another thought Corrine.alternatively to genetic testing, what color are the colt's parents? If both are gray, the colt will be gray. If one parent is gray and the other is brown, then the colt can only be gray if the brown dun parent carries the gray dun allele. And if both parents are brown dun, they both must carry the gray allele to make a gray foal. Cherrie 1dr Fjords --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Willows Edge Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Willows Edge Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] How can I tell if he will be grey or if he is just a lovely brown? Thanks!! Corinne Logan The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
fjord coloring --an unfolding mystery!
This message is from: safreivald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:49:43 -0700 From: Willows Edge Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fjord coloring ? This message is from: Willows Edge Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I have a new little guy and am baffled at his coloring ... his body is brown dun but has grey undertones coming through and facial coloring is more grey than brown. How can I tell if he will be grey or if he is just a lovely brown? Thanks!! Corinne Logan Willows Edge Farm Bothell, WA (425) 402-6781 -- Easy answer--wait!I have been surprised to see how some of these babies change as they mature! The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 08:09 PM 7/13/2008, you wrote: This message is from: jen frame [EMAIL PROTECTED] My Fjord mare is like what you describe: a lovely light brown--more yellow or creamy tea colored. Her mane and tail have the dark stripe, and the stripe down her back is red. Her primitive markings on her legs are a slightly darker and more reddish color than her body, and her points are just kind of darker--sort of grey, sort of reddish, certainly not black points. She has the Njal mark on her cheek, dark spots above each eye, and many darker spots mixed in with the 4-5 swirls on her forehead. Almost looks like she has a bunch on Njal marks on her forehead, but they are just the coloring without the single black hair (the one on her cheek has the single black hair). I often wondered if she is really a red dunn rather than a brown dunn? If she has a black stripe she is a brown dun. Mike whatever she is, she is adorable Jen On 7/13/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you are questioning the color... then he is most likely a brown... You will know when you have a grey... The muzzle and the eyes are very different. I thought I had greys but they were brown and when we finally had a grey... it will hit you that this is a grey. :-) Catherine Lassesen Hestehaven - The Horse Garden Hundehaven - The Dog Heaven www.hestehaven.com / [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1-541-825-3027 Southern Oregon The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: jen frame [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike, her mane stripe is not a true black--it is dark, but not black, Although that may be sun bleaching since I kep it long; when I shave her bridle path, it is a true black, But the dark srtipe in her tail is defintaley a reddish brown and not black. Does all this info still lead you to believe she is a Brown Dunn? Probably... Jen On 7/14/08, Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] If she has a black stripe she is a brown dun. Mike The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 10:09 AM 7/14/2008, you wrote: This message is from: jen frame [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike, her mane stripe is not a true black--it is dark, but not black, Although that may be sun bleaching since I kep it long; when I shave her bridle path, it is a true black, But the dark srtipe in her tail is defintaley a reddish brown and not black. Does all this info still lead you to believe she is a Brown Dunn? yes I am pretty sure she will end up a brown dun. What color is her muzzle - light mealy color or dark blackish color? Mike Probably... Jen On 7/14/08, Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] If she has a black stripe she is a brown dun. Mike The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Cherrie Nolden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey Jen, I would concur with Mike on her being a brown dun, but you can always check her genetically, just like with the gray dun color that Corrine was asking about. Just have her tested for the Red Factor gene. If she is ee for Red Factor, she is a red dun. If she is EE or Ee then she is a brown dun. My brown dun Fjords that carry the red dun allele all sport reddish zebra stripes and reddish back stripes but have black in their manes and tails (4 horses). My Fjords that don't carry the red allele all have black zebra stripes and brownish back stripes (7 horses). Don't know if this is coincidence, or perhaps an indicator of Red Factor carriers? Cherrie 1dr Fjords --- On Mon, 7/14/08, jen frame [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: jen frame [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does all this info still lead you to believe she is a Brown Dunn? The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Teams for sale
This message is from: shawna smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning ! I have been asked to post some info regarding two well-broke teams for sale. They do not belong to me, however, I will gladly give you contact info upon request. Horses are CFHA reg. and located in Oregon. Happy Trails!! Shawna Smith Gandolf C-1390 Geir C-1579 should stay a team price $15K. Jord C-2307 Baar C-2482 $12Kthey should stay together too. All have lots of time farming. The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Karen Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] If both are gray, the colt will be gray. If one parent is At the risk of being called a know it all (I've been spanked before on this list concerning color), I think the above statement is incorrect, although this is not the first time I've heard it said. Two greys could produce a red, depending on the genetic makeup of each grey. For instance, a horse in the NFHR registry named Veni's Finn is a grey dun whose sire was grey and dam was red. Since Finn is a grey dun (phenotype), we know she carries the grey gene. (I've got quotes around that and will expand in a further paragraph.) We also know that she carries a red gene because red was the only color her red dam had to offer. But red is recessive to the grey gene, so the grey coloring is what she shows the world. Her genotype is both grey and red. Therefore, when Finn is hypothetically bred, she can give her offspring either a grey or red gene. Now, if we find a grey stallion for Finn who has the same genotype (both grey and red), that stallion can give its offspring either a grey or red gene. Therefore, a hypothetical foal out of Finn by a grey stallion with grey/red phenotype could be either grey or red; with the chances being 75% grey and 25% red. Grey bred to grey can produce red, depending on the genotypes. I started looking through the registry to see if I could find a red born of two greys, but there were so many I only got through half a dozen. Maybe someone with more time or interest can have a look. Now, I used quotes above and it's just a pet peeve of mine. So if you don't like soapbox speeches, scroll down now. I think we Fjord people make this color issue way too complicated by referring to and thinking of each Fjord dun color as a separate gene -- a grey gene or a red gene or a white gene, etc. I'm going out on a limb here (but Sponenberg will back me up http://members.aol.com/mfthorses/sponenbg.htm) to say there is no grey gene (or red, or white or even brown). The dun gene dilutes the base color, creating either brown, grey or red duns. The base colors in Fjords are just like the base colors in all horses -- bay, black and chestnut. (Sponenberg doesn't address the base color brown in the initial charts in this website, but Jeanette Gowers of Horse Colour Explained groups bays and browns together as closely related genetically.) The addition of a creme gene further dilutes those three duns and creates the white dun, yellow dun and kvit. So, when someone refers to the grey gene, or a grey dun, it's a base color of black that has been diluted by the dun gene. A red dun is a chestnut base color diluted by the dun gene. A brown dun is a bay or brown base color diluted by the dun gene. One dun gene creates three different dun colors depending on what the base color of the horse is. Finally, I'll go off on complete speculation here as to why there is such a variation in shades of Fjord colors. I go right back to base colors of horses -- bay, black and chestnut. Bays have a wide range of shades from very dark mahogany to light enough to look nearly buckskin. It makes sense to me that when you dilute with dun this varied range of base color bay, you're going to get a varied range of brown duns from dark to pale. Sound reasonable? Okay, enough for now. Take this for what it's worth. I'm not a genetics expert and I never played one on TV. Just spend way too much time thinking about Fjords. :^) Cheers! Karen, now in a hotel in Virginia, waiting for my household goods coming from the UK. Also, I'm looking for a Fjord and avidly watching everyone's for sale ads. Looking forward to the Herndon evaluation next month. _ Want to help Windows Live Messenger plant more Aussie trees? http://livelife.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=443698 The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: jen frame [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike, her muzzle has the black skin, with white hairs ontop, giving her the mealy muzzle look. If she gets wet then the dark skin shows through, but she has the white muzzle. After reading the post after yours that goes into depth on color genetics, I think you are right: she is a brown dunn, and the dunn gene in her case diluted a lighter bay horse. I looked closely at her colors this morning before I drove her, and her mane is dark brown--almost black but not a true black, with some red hairs mixed in, mostly lower towards her withers. Her strip is definately red, as are the primitive markings. Her points are only on her coronet band up to her ankles, and then again on her knees. The cannon bones are her light body color (i.e. her points are not contiguous up her leg, but mostly on the ankle joint and the knee joint). And the points are reddish brown with some grey hairs in them, not black. Thanks Jen On 7/14/08, Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 10:09 AM 7/14/2008, you wrote: yes I am pretty sure she will end up a brown dun. What color is her muzzle - light mealy color or dark blackish color? Mike The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Cherrie Nolden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Karen, Yes, I was trying to keep it simple. The explanation was incomplete if taken out of context of the question at hand. Thank you for filling in the technical gaps of the potential outcomes of gray crosses. You are absolutely right on the grays producing reds. In this case, the question was a brown-looking colt that might be gray. There was no question about whether this colt might be a red dun. Given this, if both parents were gray duns, then the color of this colt would be known: gray dun. You are also right about gray and red genes. No such thing. There are Agouti and Red Factor genes, which, in their homozygous recessive forms will produce red duns and gray duns in this breed (which all carry the dun dilution, so not much mention is usually made of it). Like you say, we essentially are talking about two black horses creating a black or a chestnut, but this is hard for most Fjord people to think about if they haven't committed the base colors and their resultant dun dilutes to memory. I've found that most Fjord owners think of the Fjord phenotypic colors and can most easily comprehend the way the variations of the base color genes work if I keep the explanation in the dun-diluted framework. And yes, there isn't a white gene either, just Cream Dilution, which further dilutes the already diluted Fjord colors of red dun and brown dun, with gray duns supposedly not showing a further dilution. But that gene is dose-related, unlike Agouti and Red Factor. I have brown dun Fjords that carry the recessive alleles of Red Factor and Agouti, which can produce red and gray duns (bays carrying alleles that can code for chestnut and black). Alleles are alternative forms of the main genes. I refer to these Fjords as red and gray carriers. They carry one allele, that if paired with another analogous allele, will produce a Fjord color other than brown dun. Veni's Finn is a gray dun (aa) carrying one recessive allele of the Red Factor gene from her dam (Ee), making her genotype (aaEe). Red alleles are not recessive to gray alleles, as they are two variations of independently assorting genes. But red dun masks gray dun in Fjords (chestnut masks black). A homozygous recessive Red Factor (ee) genotype masks the phenotypic expression of a homozygous recessive Agouti (aa) genotype. Thus, a double recessive Fjord (aaee) would genotypically be both red dun and gray dun, but would only show the red dun color, phenotypically. Since Finn is not a red dun, she only carries one copy of the red allele, while she phenotypically expresses the gray allele because she has two copies of it. Finn will give every offspring a grey allele and 50% of those offspring could receive a red allele from her. I agree that you have a 25% chance of getting a red foal by breeding Finn to a gray stallion with the same genetic makeup as Finn (Runar Fra Opdal, Smedsmo Graen, LFF Ulend, etc). For those who have followed this discussion to this point, I explained how to calculate these probabilities in the Herald article. I, too, spend too much time thinking about Fjords, and my molecular biology background makes it fun for me to think about their genetics and to explain it to others. Cherrie 1dr Fjords --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Karen Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Karen Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Fjord coloring ? To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 11:49 AM This message is from: Karen Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] If both are gray, the colt will be gray. If one parent is At the risk of being called a know it all (I've been spanked before on this list concerning color), I think the above statement is incorrect, although this is not the first time I've heard it said. Two greys could produce a red, depending on the genetic makeup of each grey. For instance, a horse in the NFHR registry named Veni's Finn is a grey dun whose sire was grey and dam was red. Since Finn is a grey dun (phenotype), we know she carries the grey gene. (I've got quotes around that and will expand in a further paragraph.) We also know that she carries a red gene because red was the only color her red dam had to offer. But red is recessive to the grey gene, so the grey coloring is what she shows the world. Her genotype is both grey and red. Therefore, when Finn is hypothetically bred, she can give her offspring either a grey or red gene. Now, if we find a grey stallion for Finn who has the same genotype (both grey and red), that stallion can give its offspring either a grey or red gene. Therefore, a hypothetical foal out of Finn by a grey stallion with grey/red phenotype could be either grey or red; with the chances being 75% grey and 25% red. Grey bred to grey can produce red, depending on the genotypes. I started looking through the registry to see if I could find a red born of two greys, but there were so many I only got through half a dozen. Maybe someone
RE: Fjord coloring ?
This message is from: Karen Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Cherrie: Too funny! The day I decide to climb up on a soapbox about color genetics it's in response to a molecular biologist. LOL! I yield the floor. Perhaps, though, my explanation will be helpful to folks whose brains work like mine. I can muddle through the alleles and capital letters and lower case letters denoting genes, but it really is a muddle for me and hard work. I have to keep going back to charts and reviewing. I see the base horse colors as hues on a color wheel, and the dun and creme dilutions as a tints and tones, creating the lovely dun and creme coats. Does anyone else remember junior high art class? Start with red, add a tint of white and you get pink! http://creativecurio.com/2008/05/the-color-wheel-and-color-theory/ I know it's simplistic but it works for me. And you're right, since all Fjords are some color of dun, referring to them as red dun, brown dun, etc., one might say is re-dun-dant! :^) Cheers! Karen _ It's simple! Sell your car for just $40 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2E com%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai% 5F859641_t=762955845_r=tig_OCT07_m=EXT The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Blue Earth Show Photos and Videos
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Everyone! Every year at Blue Earth I LOVE to take tons of pictures to help remember the event. Last year I tried to take as many pictures as I could, but because I also show, there were A LOT of classes and people who I missed. After the show I was going through the pictures and decided to make a movie/video for the show (which is on YouTube). I had no intentions at the show to make a video therefore the pictures might not have exactly matched what I was trying to do. SO.why am I writing this? Well this year I have been doing some planning for a nice movie to do (pictures, videos and music) to remember this year's show, however I am also once again showing and will be missing out on a lot of opportunities to take nice pictures and/or videos, but I promise you when I am not in the ring I will be along side of it with my camera. So I would just like to ask if anyone who will be there and will be taking pictures if I could possibly copy some pictures to use in my movie? I will have my laptop and I can load pictures or videos via an SD card or a USB port connection. Otherwise I will see you some of you this weekend (show starts in ONE week!!) and to the rest-take care, stay cool and have fun with your wonderful fjords!! Robin L Holland 3601 S Irish Hollow Rd Hanover IL 61041 C 815/858-4042 H 815/591-3658 The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Color mistakes
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 7/14/2008 9:36:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I see the base horse colors as hues on a color wheel, and the dun and creme dilutions as a tints and tones, creating the lovely dun and creme coats. Does anyone else remember junior high art class? Start with red, add a tint of white and you get pink! OMG Karen ! Do you mean that when I breed my whites to my red dun, I will get PINK FJORDS ? Holy Crap !I will need new driving hats. Shopping begins tomorrow. Lisa ** Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Is It Memorex ?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 7/14/2008 9:36:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If one parent is gray and the other is brown, then the colt can only be gray if the brown dun parent carries the gray dun allele. And if both parents are brown dun, they both must carry the gray allele to make a gray foal. 3 years ago, the brown dun stallion, Leidjo, produced grey out of the brown dun mare, Gjoi. ( Lots of Anvil's bloodlines, bred by Sharon Falck. ) The resulting grey color was made even more of a surprise, when it was live grey twins ! Unfort. at 3 weeks of age, the little filly had to be euthenized after another horse stepped on her shoulder, breaking it badly. The grey gelding is beautiful, and a normal sized 3 yr old. Gjoi is here now, part of our herd, and is being bred back to Leidjo. Of course I will check ( often ) for multiples, but it will be interesting if this brown match again produces grey. Lisa ** Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: Is It Memorex ?
This message is from: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a Leidjo son...grey dun gelding out of an Anvil's (Lena x Regin) brown dun mare. At the time, Anita Unrau pointed out that the grey had to have come from a grand parent (I believe that is what she said) on either side. Gail The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
The Lordie of the Fjordies adventure
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone I such a funny outing today that I just had to share it! The Lord of the Fjords as I call him ( Ironwood Lordalen) and I went out on our first ground driving tour of the local neighborhoods. I have been ground driving him in the arena and on my property. He was doing so well that I thought it time for him to see the bigger world. I always take one of my assistants with me, to help with crossing the road as I can't see as well when I am behind ground driving. The road is all clear and we cross the street .Right across the street from me is a Palm tree grove (yes they grow them and people buy them to put in their yards in Western WA.Well they also have some very large pampas grass about 12 or 15 feet high growing in and along the ditch beside the propriety that leads into the neighborhood. Well Lordalen had never seen grass that big before, so just as we crossed the street he decide that we should take a slight detour and he was in that ditch in about 2 seconds! Of course with his head down eating that Giant Grass! I was still standing on the road and had my assistant get his head out of the grass and I got after him and out of the ditch he came, dragging about a dozen blades of 12' long grass with him!It looked so funny that we both could not stop laughing. So on we go. It just happens to also be trash day and all the garbage cans are out on the side of the street, so you know who thinks that we need to stop and open everyone and see what is in it! We finally make it past the first few cans and he is moving forward now (at least not dragging along a trash can too!) Then we come to the first batch of mail boxes ( my new word to him is now move it!). I think that he would have taken all the flags with him if I had let him! Now we round the corner and are free and clear of all the garbage cans. Now here comes the garbage truck from behind. Lordalen stops and watches as they pick up the cans and then they pass us. He now thinks that we should follow the garbage truck and inspect all the cans since the lids are now coming off!Just as we come around another turn out comes this little white all dolled up poodle, charging out like she owns the place! Under him she goes and out the other side, up to his face they sniff noses! And now he wants to catch the poodle! So I tell him to move it and down the road we go with poodle in tow. So I decide to take him up the hill to the Mansion with the water wheel (this usually scares all the horse the first time including Fjords) .We get to the top of the hill and I walk him up to it and stop. He yawns and looks at me as if to say boring! Let's go after the garbage truck. Absolutely nothing bothered him. He has the funniest personality and just loves get into anything and everything! Well it is almost his first birthday. I suppose he will want a special cake too! Bonnie Morris Hot and sunny in Western Wa and Lordie of the Fjordie's still keeping an eye out for more trash cans! Here are a few pictures of some of the kids at the summer camps painting horses! And giving Lordalen a bath. **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
