Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: "vz/bossmare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I can't resist a reply here to "any way they want". I'm an "Easterner" but most of our "rules" about horses come from the British who among other places settled in parts of Canada. The problem with "any way they want" is apparent in the way people take that to mean "any-thing". Thongs, pierced whatevers, skimpy halter tops, tatooed legsand that's just the women! Look for guys in tee shirts with vulgar statements, pants with the crotch around the knees, shoes with no laces, etc. Or haven't these latest fashions appeared "out west". People who dress this way defend their right to do so but when can we defend our right to reject this visual pollution. As far as detracting from "the horse", people who defend their right to be slobs don't know the difference. It's the same person who will pay for a professional photo of their horse for an ad and not clean up the horse or replace the tattered halter. It's actually a form of reverse snobbery in my opinion in that they celebrate their individualism but wind up being more of a conformist to their group. Years ago my daughter, the liberal, now living "out west" in Colorado deplored the fact that people were judged by their appearance. As her mother I asked her if she saw a bum panhandling on the street corner, or a businessman reading his paper across the street, to whom would she go to ask directions? As the worm turns she now has a 12 year old son who cannot get his ear pierced or his body tatooed because right or wrong, he will be judged. Appearances do matter in the long run. An inappropriate appearance no matter the intention, or the integrity of the individual usually results in that person being discounted by others as not up to par, or worse, worthy of consideration whether applying for a job or showing a horse before judges. I can't wait to see Madonna take up driving, Fjord or otherwise. On the other hand I once saw photos "out west" of a nude rodeo. Apart from seeming to be a very uncomfortable situation I imagine they thought they were celebrating their individualism. Lois in NJ where what she wears around the farm mucking stalls is classier than what she sees on employees at the bank. - Original Message - From: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Carol raising standards > This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Oh come one, Ruthie, I go to the horse shows here in Fairbanks, and see > > the western riders with their fancy clothes, "proper chaps" shirts in the > > current "In" style and colors, horses with ears shaved, faces oiled, > hooves > > painted, mane pulled and cut and you want to tell me WESTERN riders don't > > follow a dress style? I look in Western Horseman Magazine and see the > > "Latest" fashions for western riders. I see "how to" article on how to > > prepare your horse for the western riding clases. Isn't that sort of > > "hoity toity" also? Jean in Fairbanks, > = > SURE JEAN, but what's your point? (hee hee hee) > > Seriously, so there are two extremes fine but why should one be > allowed to dictate to the other? You ask me how I think a person should > dress when they show? How about, "any way they want!" as long as it does not > detract from the horse. > > Ruthie
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Oh come one, Ruthie, I go to the horse shows here in Fairbanks, and see > the western riders with their fancy clothes, "proper chaps" shirts in the > current "In" style and colors, horses with ears shaved, faces oiled, hooves > painted, mane pulled and cut and you want to tell me WESTERN riders don't > follow a dress style? I look in Western Horseman Magazine and see the > "Latest" fashions for western riders. I see "how to" article on how to > prepare your horse for the western riding clases. Isn't that sort of > "hoity toity" also? Jean in Fairbanks, = SURE JEAN, but what's your point? (hee hee hee) Seriously, so there are two extremes fine but why should one be allowed to dictate to the other? You ask me how I think a person should dress when they show? How about, "any way they want!" as long as it does not detract from the horse. Ruthie
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Oh come one, Ruthie, I go to the horse shows here in Fairbanks, and see the western riders with their fancy clothes, "proper chaps" shirts in the current "In" style and colors, horses with ears shaved, faces oiled, hooves painted, mane pulled and cut and you want to tell me WESTERN riders don't follow a dress style? I look in Western Horseman Magazine and see the "Latest" fashions for western riders. I see "how to" article on how to prepare your horse for the western riding clases. Isn't that sort of "hoity toity" also? So how do you want to dress when you show? Where is the happy medium? Jean in Fairbanks, ALaska, finally some sun and 60 degree. Fall is here. >If we in the west conform to a dictatorship of "hoity-toity" ring standards in >order to attract eastern entrants, we are then going to lose some western >entrants, and that's a fact! Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie, I did not write you offline, have not yet had a chance! :) However, I must say it is highly bothersome to see so much emphasis put on clothing versus the horse. I mean, has anyone seen some of the mini shows? Women driving in evening gowns, sequins, high heels, etc? The mini is barely noticeable. Or, some of the Western shows where the handler is so brightly dressed, sparkles so much one's eyes are drawn to the handler versus horse? I remember seeing a tape of a Fjord evaluation overseas a few years back, either Norway or Denmark, although cannot for the life of me remember the details. However, all the handlers wore black pants and white shirts. This was so impressive! Emphasis was placed on the Fjord, where it belonged. This does not indicate I believe harness, carts, clothes, etc., should be dirty, torn, or of poor quality. However, too much emphasis on clothing itself does detract from the Fjord, this is very obvious in other breed shows. Tradition is one thing, but lately, tradition seems to be getting pretty broad in definition in the show ring. Someone else asked a great question about drivers wearing helmets versus the cute little hats. What is the take on this in regard to the show ring? Lynda > How I wish that all of you who wrote to me off-list would write ON-list and > give this issue some weighty public balance. Your supportive posts are an > overriding indication that there is a groundswell for freedom in the ring > and > a revolution against English anarchy in show trappings.
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It's very gratifying to see the many, many comments on appropriate performance attire and trappings; pros and cons.. some good points made. How I wish that all of you who wrote to me off-list would write ON-list and give this issue some weighty public balance. Your supportive posts are an overriding indication that there is a groundswell for freedom in the ring and a revolution against English anarchy in show trappings. Before I go on, let me say that I speak for myself alone and in no way do I want to be a reproach to Libby or the regional promotional club, just because of my proximity which is irrelevant. In fact, they could be writing a disclaimer about now =))) What do I want? equal opportunity for all Fjord lovers everywhere! political correctness for the expression of western culture! (if you will =)) Cynthia, we (I do speak for many) do not want cheap Good Will rags so we can pretend we're somebody we're not. If you gave them to us, we wouldn't wear them! Why? Because we feel ridiculous in English second-hand polyester costumry! Some folks don't mind, some do. This all started because I resent the current pressure to mandate specifics for western Fjord lovers... cut the goat hairs, skin the ears, buff the toes... *POP* no, wait, that was the horse! =))) Well, you know what I mean. If we in the west conform to a dictatorship of "hoity-toity" ring standards in order to attract eastern entrants, we are then going to lose some western entrants, and that's a fact! If ever there is a year when eastern interests don't come in... what will be left of our show here without solid regional participation? I know of a few case histories where just such a thing has happened. Mind you, we love to see the proper outfits perform.. We're not asking you to change, so please don't ask us to. Why can't we just all do our own thing...? after all, no one is asking to do anything unsafe, or unclean, and no one wants to be sloppy! Just judge the HORSE! How best might we promote the Fjord Horse? (our common interest) By encouraging Fjord newbies with an open and uncritical acceptance of their presentation. Some of which may not yet have the wherewithal or experience to put on airs; young folks, families. Multiple restrictions, requirements, and blatant criticisms, is DISCOURAGING, NOT PROMOTIONAL, to people entering the Fjord world, as folks are just naturally not attracted to snobbery. Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: Cynthia Madden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Teresa K., I really appreciated your even handed comments about standards. Yes, there is a time to dress up and a time to be casual and that is in showing your horse and in the everyday work/non-work world. One of the things I love about driving is that when driving around home, I can wear tennis shoes and shorts. If you want to exhibit your fjord in the all-breed world, you conform because you want to compete to your best advantage. How much do people showing in a western pleasure class spend on their outfits? Well, when I shop for carriage driving show clothes, let's see - hat bought at Kohl's, $12; blouse bought on sale at Penney's, $7; apron, made by friend; $40(apron covers the Docker's I like to wear); shoes bought at Shopko, $12. Gosh, that's a lot of money! If you read the Carriage Driving list, you will find lots of hints of where to buy clothes for a driving show at Salvation Army stores, etc. I love the casual atmosphere I've experienced at Blue Earth and Libby and I do not see any slobs there! I think those who protest dressing up a bit (an Ruth is not alone!), protest just bit too much. I also think these shows are a great and non-threatening place to learn and practice how to show in the open shows - IF you so desire. If you don't want to, that fine too! My serious objections to A. Fraser's showing at High Prairie is that he chose to show with the big girls and oys and did a very poor job of it. He could have stayed in Montana and gone to a schooling show or CDE and no one would have cared and he would not have wasted the owner's money and embarrassed the Fjord world! (I don't mean to introduce this topic again, but my original comments seemed to start all this recent discussion and I remain unapologetic about them). I also would like to point out that my comments were not about "dressing up standards," but about training and ethical standards. = Cynthia Madden Las Cruces, NM [EMAIL PROTECTED] (messages received on Saturday or Sunday can not be responded to until Monday)
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: "Teressa Kandianis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As a non shower of horses (yet), and looking at the twists and turns in this thread, it seems that people are speaking on parallel albeit separate tracks. The concerns that have been voiced are those of the widespread opinions among some top level N. American trainers and drivers and riders that fjords aren't really showhorses. So, we hear from some parties that using the same standards for showing that are used among these upper level shows and are apparently standard with some breeds and having horses that are trained, groomed and conditioned on these same levels, and having riders or drivers who are also turned out and skilled will help, over time, to change those attitudes in America. Not needed in Norway where the Norwegian Fjord Horse is a national treasure whose qualities are universally admired. However, US breeders aren't selling horses in Norway, they are selling them in N. America. So, I believe the focus of Carol and the Jensen's comments were at the thread's problem statement regarding the fjordhorse reputation among N. America's training and top level competing communities and surely had nothing to do with their Canadian locations. That shouldn't be regarded as an intended or even unintended slight of those who consider those traditional requirements to be over the top. Things do change over time at those higher levels - but it takes quite a while. Remember how long it took for the mandatory figures to be removed from top level ice skating competitions? And what Dick Button has had to say about those changes? I'm guessing that aspects of the higher driving standards being discussed have been already modified or eliminated over the centuries. Top level sport is political but you change it gradually and only by being in the top levels and gaining respect there. By implementing the standards at our breed shows, we are more likely to see the top level representatives of our breed being able to transition seamlessly to becoming top level competitors at the all breed shows...thus gaining the respect of trainers, improving reputation and increasing value. But this doesn't happen overnight. In fact, it appears that even though there is still much breed prejudice out there, there are some hardworking professional breeders who are breeding well, training well and winning well. And they are changing attitudes a little bit at a time. The desire of others to compete for fun without such restrictive requirements is a different issue but also important not to lose sight of. As the Jensen's have also said, get out there and work with your horses at any level. I just wish I were in either category right now. Regards from western Washington where we're told to expect our first rain in months this weekend. My fjords will be black and joyful from having mud to roll in. Teressa K.
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ruth bushnell wrote: > This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Carol, > > Now you've gone and done it! =)) Just when I complimented your Fjord tutoring > tendencies too. > > Your current letter regards "raising the standards" rather nettled me... I I too, like the more "relaxed" (do not read lower) western standards. We enter a show tomorrow ( pleasure driving and a cones class at the Eastern Idaho State FAir) to have fun and to show off what we think are fine horses and vehicles. We also do it to get people interested in pleasure driving with their horses, show that there is an interest and try to expand the offerings and classes. Some of us also do it to engender interest in our own particular horses-(read potential customers for our colts). Most of all it is a wonderful opportunity to meet people with similar interests. I wholeheartedly agree that presentation and preparation are important - clean and well conditioned vehicles and horses and tack. Dress as if you are proud of your entry but I feel it should be appropriate to your rig and horse. I do drive the original vehicles as were driven in the West ( original 100 year old buggy and springwagon), some of us drive newer roadcarts and marathon rigs too. We all find a lot of the "English" accoutrements too expensive and certainly not in keeping with the rigs but we welcome the entries from Jackson Hole who are dressed to the hilt and look mighty sharp. A driving apron and tophat look really out of place on my buggy though and the modern steel vehicles are not nearly as graceful as the old BUT in an english driving class they are appropriate. So, why not compromise and encourage and allow both types of shows or classes and enter the kind of show in which you feel the most comfortable. Just a thought as I leave work to go touch up the paint nicks on the spokes of the buggy, grease the leathers in the hubs - not built with bearings, clean the seats with armourall, polish the harness and clean the green spots off the blonde horse for the State Fair tomorrow. ( and find my brown driving gloves ( isotoners that double for winter car driving gloves), straw sun hat that I do use elsewhere, and casual jacket, slacks and a turtle neck. Kathy in Southern Idaho
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree. The apron serves no safety function and just plain looks stupid. The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. b Carl Jung
Carol raising standards
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol, Now you've gone and done it! =)) Just when I complimented your Fjord tutoring tendencies too. Your current letter regards "raising the standards" rather nettled me... I really should retire from the List as I find it somewhat provocative, but then you'd probably all talk about me =)). Now, I can understand why you Canadians, you and Jensens, are passionately advocating English standards, and that's all fine and dandy... go for it! But why this bullish thrust to conform westerners as well? To bring them UP to your level of superiority? In every other aspect of life there is evolving standards! Doctors now wear casual and comfortable attire, Ministers opt for more natural trappings, and the list goes on! There's nothing sacred or indelible about an outdated dress standard for heaven's sakes and I can think of no reason on earth why we should cling to archaic English tradition. Our driving vehicles are not authentic are they? I spoke with someone this summer, who had talked to someone (h, sounds like hearsay) ... who had gone to Norway, and they were dismayed to see that Fjords were more naturally exhibited than here. No extreme clipping, shampooing, or artificial prepping, but the focus was on the horse itself. So when you say, "that's the way it's done in the REAL horse world," I'm presuming there are horse planets yet undiscovered in your reckoning. I say, let's quit worrying about what the "horse world" thinks or says about us and quit following them down the garden path.. (case in point the current outrage over losing face with horse world peers) Let's focus on the wonderful and unique Fjord that really needs no enhancement or pseudo elevation. I may never live to see the standard changed but I'm betting that someone, somewhere, wakes up to the fact that it's high time we changed (not lowered, but changed) our standards, and threw that damnedable hot apron out the window! A few phony foreign props do not a good Fjord make. Mind you Carol, I'm not taking BACK one good word I said about you. (hee hee) Ruthie, a no frills westerner
