The Case Against Cross-Breeding Fjords
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I feel have to address this letter, not to make a case for cross breeding fjords, but to examine some information portrayed here about cross breeding. I too, as a member of the NFHR and a fjord owner have accepted the policy of no crossbreeding, and personally, as a mare owner, I cannot imagine why one would take a valuable mare, and cross breed with her to make foals of lesser value than the purebred. I also agree the Fjord is just perfect the way it is for my purposes and have absolutely no desire to change it. I do however differ from others here in that I do not want to be presumptuous and try to second guess why another person might desire to have a cross bred. But as a group of breeders, I think it is important to correctly understand what cross breeding does and does not do, and what truly are potential threats to the integrity of the Fjord breed. We cannot safeguard the integrity of the breed by perpetuating mis information about crossbreeding . Warren brought up several common points of argument which warrant discussion. Warren wrote about a lady who represented a half breed Fjord as a purebred, and therefore if crossbreeding was not allowed, this sort of dishonesty would not happen. Well, it will happen whether crossbreeding is allowed or not. The problem is not that there are crossbreds out there, the problem is there will always be dishonest people, and there will always be folks who are at the beginning of the learning curve who are going to be duped. The antidote is to educate the prospective fjord owning public as to the merits of the purebred Fjord and how to recognize a purebred, and to have policies that safeguard against dishonesty. It is my understanding there are already Fjord crosses happening despite the association rules, and what happens outside of the association, the NFHR has no control over. So the focus should not be on what the association has no control over, but instead should be aimed at education to make wise consumers. In the case of this particular person, the management of the event should have been notified that a fraudulent sale had taken place. Regarding the article in 'the Horse' magazine about the fatal diseases in many other breeds of horses. For those who hold this fear, how is it that you propose these genes will jump into the Fjord breed? Many breeders of cattle and sheep and some breeds of horses, utilize crossbreeding without gene migration being a problem. When breeds are used for crossing, the importance of quality pure breds is heightened because purebred parents that can reliably stamp their breed traits onto the cross are required. A crossbred parent is of little value in a crossbreeding program, the greatest benefits of crossing are acquired in the F1 by mating two purebred parents. So good purebred stock are very important to proper crossbreeding program. As to avoiding those genetic problems, this is why genetic diversity must be presevered -within- the breed to avoid getting stuck in a corner with a limited gene pool. Genetic diversity is preserved via avoiding overuse of certain lines or a single popular stallion. Mutations do and will occur and only a breed with a good healthy, diverse, gene pool will be able to work their way out of a problem should it arise. Crossbred genes cannot enter the purebred population unless either the association allows the registration of crossbreds in a grading up program (NOT done in the NFHR) or because a breeder falsifies papers. So the only way a crossbred Fjord can become registered is if a mare or stallion owner sends in a false pedigree, which in many instances is also going to require the cooperation of another fjord breeder. If a horse is not the offspring of two registered Fjords, then it cannot be registered as a Fjord, it is that simple! btw, false pedigrees are not just a crossbred problem. False pedigrees can happen either accidentally or on purpose within purebred mating, such as when an a high priced stallion was not fertile so another stallion was used in his stead, but the papers reflect the more valuable stallion as the sire. They can happen accidentally when more than one stallion is stood on a farm due to employee error, or inadequate facilities. Whether crossbred or purebred, any animal with a false pedigree is a danger to the integrety of the breed. Thus it is more important to focus on how to maintain breeder integrity, such as requiring DNA samples on all registered horses, and having some teeth in the rules for people who attempt to violate them. (but the teeth need only apply to those attempting to -register- animals with false pedigrees, not focus on punishing owners who are crossbreeding when the breeder is honest and representing the result as a crossbred). My point here is to say that the kind of fear mongering that is used to discourage crossbreeding is really p
Cross-Breeding not option for registered stallion!
This message is from: "Arthur Rivoire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Please note, I DO NOT promote crossing Fjords in any way, but have to > >admit there may be some nice ones out there. > > AND, if you had a nice Canadian/Welsh cross mare and admired the Fjord > Breed, maybe it would seem like a great idea to breed her to that nice > Fjord stallion down the road! Why get so upset about it? > > Let's educate, not alienate! > > Jean in snowy Fairbanks, Alaska, a winter wonderland, FINALLY! > > Jean Ernest > Fairbanks, Alaska > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If that "nice Fjord stallion down the road" is registered, his owner better not even think of breeding him to anything but a Fjord mare. That is, if he wants to keep his stallion's registration -- In addition, if the stallion owner used his horse for cross-breeding, not only would the stallion lose is registration, but the owner would lose his NFHR membership with all the rights and priviliges included in that membership. The exact wording of this rule is found on the NFHR page in the Herald. SPECIAL NOTE: In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registation, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list. This is such a good and important NFHR rule, that it bears frequent repeatings, lest anyone be unaware. This vital rule was origninally included in the NFHR By-Laws, but then through some oversight, it was lost. -- A few years ago, Arthur and I discovered that the rule no longer appeared in the Herald, as it had for several years. We brought the situation to the attention of the Registry, and they did the right thing by reinstating it. Julie Will was on the BOD at that time, and she was instrumental in convincing the Directors that the rule MUST be reinstated . . .. and, of course, it was. Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire
questions, performance, out/cross breeding, dressage...WHEW!!
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] OK... Beth.cross a QH with an Andalusian and you have an AZTECA! OK, so they had to start their own registry so they could have registered horses Cross a Fjord with a TB=Fjordoughbred. QH x Fjord=Quarjord Horse. Paint x QH=Fjaint Horse. Fjord x Friesian= The possibilities are endless Seriously, I love the breed, (as Beth well knows), and I hold her opinions, thoughts, and ideas in high esteem. The Fjords are extremely identifiable by their uniqueness, which comes from their history of selective breeding to be just what they are, it is their history, their heritage, and it is grandsomebody got it right somewhere along the way!!! I believe that people will purchase a crossbred that is unregisterable because they are less expensive, (fulfilling a life-long dream), or there is something about one (or both) of the parent's breed that suits their purposes. Otherwise, enough of the same crosses and everybody gets together to create a new breed registry, and then start charging more for they are now registered horses Steve...you speak of your convictions regarding the European breeding programs in the past tense...well What thinks you now The curious want to know!! Performance.well, cowponies perform on the range, that kid's horse sure has to perform around the countryside with its enthusiastic little owner. I think Performance means different things to different peopleit would be easier to split the horses' Performance into three differently and easily distinguished groups. One...APC (All Physical Activity Avoided At All Costs) TwoMPFR (Moderate Physical Fitness Required) Three..SABALI (Serious Athlete, Buff, And Loving It) Dressage...Fjords..hmules, similar type, similar neck ratios. Well, I sure am going to give it a shot on my little typey (8.5 at the evaluation!!!) Fjord!!! Even if we don't look like the elegant TB's, the spectacular Warmbloods wait a minute I DID catch that amazing LONG strided extended trot on Nattmann (he was holding out on me).can I ever SIT it is the question Dressage is a tool for getting the most out of your animal's performance, at any discipline, for any endeavor. It will turn into decent/respectable scores in the dressage arena simply by having a steady rhythm of the gaits, good geometry, clean transitions, square halts, etc, etc. Can you tell I just came back from the California Dressage Society's Annual Meeting that featured rides of all the new USAEq dressage tests, with running commentary by Janet Brown and Hilda Gurney, both "S" (international/FEI-C) judges.it was phenomenal No, didn't have any Fjord demo horses...darn. Yes, I am in good humor..I have a Fjord, and that is humor enough for me Carole Sweet Modesto, CA
Cross-breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This discussion of crossbreeding is getting VERY OLD. We all know that owners can and will do whatever they want with their Fjords once they have ownership. We all may have individual opinions as to what's good-better-best, or bad-worse-worst for the breed. We'll never be able to stop owners from cross-breeding, so perhaps it's time for a new topic for the New Year! So...HAPPY NEW YEAR.HAPPY FJORDING.SAFE AND BEAUTIFUL FOALINGAND ON WITH THE SHOWS, EVALUATIONS, AND EDUCATION FOR ALL OF US! Linda Wollowitz, the lucky owner of Vesle Blakka, the finest driving horse around! (Not that I'm prejudiced, of course!)
Re: Cross-breeding, Rescues, Repeat Messages & Acorns Again
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Jean, a message dated 12/28/2002 2:01:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Here if you are going to be a "not for profit" group you are given a > registration number. OH! I will email Jamie and get back to you. We are being sponsered while waiting for non-profit status, so will get you that number. Lynda
Re: Cross-breeding, Rescues, Repeat Messages & Acorns Again
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here if you are going to be a "not for profit" group you are given a registration number. Jean Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Cross-breeding, Rescues, Repeat Messages & Acorns Again
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean, There is a receipt in the mail to you. What do you mean by a number? Let me know and I will get it for you! Lynda
Re: Cross-breeding, Rescues, Repeat Messages & Acorns Again
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lynda can you give me the number of the rescue operation group for us to use for tax deduction? People will tend to give more when it is deductible, esp. this time of year.Jean Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Cross-breeding, Rescues, Repeat Messages & Acorns Again
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Cheryl, In a message dated 12/28/2002 10:31:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > We need to put this in perspective and appreciate that the rescue > needed is much much larger than what this List can generate and much > I wholeheartedly agree! However, I also am very well aware of my personal limitations, and while I would love to save them all, it is physically impossible. An estimated 80,000 horses go to slaughter yearly, so yes, this is a problem. I personally tried very hard to raise funds to save more than just the Fjords, and the officers and some of the directors of the UEF did, as well. Unfortunately, due to the time frame, none of us were successful in this effort. However, we did come up with the idea of appointing breed representatives for we inadvertently found that we could raise funds to save horses through breeds much easier than by general fundraising efforts. So, please do not assume the UEF is only trying to rescue Fjords, this is not the case. However, as this is a Fjord list and I am the UEF Fjord rep, I obviously will tend to concentrate on Fjords in need on this forum. We are also working heavily on educating the general horse public on where many of their horses go from an American auction. Most people seriously do not know so many horses go to slaughter from the states! So, education is a major need. Lobbying for more humane slaughter techniques sounds like a good idea but in reality, it is doubtful this could be done across the board. There are too many variables involved. I know this sounds awful, but facts are facts. It is highly doubtful a change in humanely putting an animal down versus stunning before dissecting will happen, for whatever reason, the animal cannot be dead at this point, but should be unconscious. I still do not as of yet understand WHY, but it has something to do with the meat quality and human consumption. However, what we CAN do is lower the numbers of horses in this predicament which would give the slaughter workers more time to do their job correctly. While I realize these three Fjords are merely a drop in the bucket, if more people could rescue just ONE horse from a slaughter yard feedlot, look at what could be accomplished! Lynda
Re: Cross-breeding, Rescues, Repeat Messages & Acorns Again
This message is from: "Carol J. Makosky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cheryl Beillard wrote: This message is from: "Cheryl Beillard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> FINALLY .. a question ..on a recurring topic. Acorns. I know there are a lot of Aussie owners out there, who are also Fjord owners/breeders. But how many of you own pot-bellied pigs? Any one with experience with these beasties, please comment. We have raised many a pig for pork (and always found it very difficult to send them off when the time came -- they were highly intelligent and friendly. -- Hi Cheryl, I too, have to deal with a huge amount of acorns and use domestic pigs for that purpose. I think that pot-bellied ones will do the acorn job too, but have not tried them. One person wanted to give me a couple, but I do not want to winter pigs where I live, so turned them down. While on the subject of oak tree fallout, I am very concerned with my piggy Fjord eating the dried oak leaves. Until this year, she has not eaten too many, but now she looked for them when falling like manna from heaven. So my questions are: Does anyone use a grazing muzzle on a regular day to day turnout and how does it stand up in the winter? I'm concerned with her drooling and getting it all froze up and hindering her breathing. The second question is, are the dead oak leaves as harmful as the acorns? I sure would appreciate anyone responding to this and thank you for listening. One more question: Does anyone use a Pacific Carriage cart with the runners for winter? If so, do you recommend getting the runners and how do they stand up with use? Carol M. On Golden Pond N. Wisconsin
Cross-breeding, Rescues, Repeat Messages & Acorns Again
This message is from: "Cheryl Beillard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> While I know it's risky, here's to a new topic for New Year for the List .. and an end, I hope, for a while to the cross-breeding debate (now degenerating in tone) and discussion of the plight and rescue of fjords when so many other breeds, species are facing the same fate. Some of our farmers out west are having to sell off or slaughter breeding stock they have spent a lifetime perfecting .. there is no hay to feed not only fjords but all kinds of livestock. We need to put this in perspective and appreciate that the rescue needed is much much larger than what this List can generate and much broader in scope than any one breed of horse. Personally, I will be lobbying my local Member of Parliament to push Ottawa to do more for farmers, per se, in terms of compensation and reduced transport costs for moving feed, while recognizing that sadly, there will be large scale destruction of some wonderful animals this winter. Re the rescue. While I am really impressed with the effort put forward by a few key people, and the generous financial support of others, to save those ponies -- sadly, given the numbers we're looking at, it's a drop in the bucket. And I find the probable fate of so many animals, regardless of breed, being trucked huge distances to slaughter equally distressing. Here's to more humane methods of slaughter and well-regulated slaughter houses, assuming that the majority of us on this List continue to eat meat and wear/use leather products, including tack and harness, etc. So .. having acknowledged the two hottest topics of late on the List, I would like to plead with some of you who have been so deeply engaged in this discussion to set up your email so that the original message is not repeated verbatim, ad nauseum. As it is, I've lost all feeling in the hand that holds the mouse as I scroll down forever, looking for the next new item! : ) It seemed to me that more than half the content of the most recent Digest was repeated messages. With a topic that has been the focus of so much discussion, we only need a few clues to remind us where we left off. I know Steve made a point about this a few days ago too, but it doesn't seem to have been heard. I'm just saying that this really is important to remember. Sorry .. must be the Xmas (holiday?) grinch making me grouchy. FINALLY .. a question ..on a recurring topic. Acorns. I know there are a lot of Aussie owners out there, who are also Fjord owners/breeders. But how many of you own pot-bellied pigs? I am toying with the idea that a couple of smallish PBPs might take care of the acorns that litter our paddocks every fall and limit the amount of time I can keep my horses on pasture, on the off chance that one of them might ingest enough to make them really sick (or dead!). Having accepted that acorns are a risk, what about pot-bellied pigs as the antidote? Any one with experience with these beasties, please comment. We have raised many a pig for pork (and always found it very difficult to send them off when the time came -- they were highly intelligent and friendly animals) .. but never met a miniature porker. Someone on the Carriage Driving List recommended this as a possible solution, but I'm wondering about the downsides to this decision. Cheryl Beillard Wake-Robin Farm Fjords www.wakerobinfarm.ca
Re: cross breeding and then there is crossbreeding
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 12:52 PM 12/27/2002 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I guess what scares me about some of the talk on this list, is that I sometimes see the same attitude among some Fjord breeders. Sometimes too much control (and the subsequent narrowing of the gene pool) can cause demise of the breed. Actually Janet I think the US & Canada together probably have the most diverse Fjord gene pool in the world today. Most all of the other Fjord populated countries cull many stallions through their Evaluation systems. Sometimes these are culled just because there is already enough of a certain bloodline around. Since our system is still in its infancy & the size of our country we cannot Evaluate as many horses in a year as they do. So a lot of stallions remain in tact that for sure wouldn't in other countries. The NFHR Evaluation system is different than some other countries in what is looked at too. A lot of countries tend to look at bloodlines, colors & size when they evaluate a horse. This sort of Evaluation can & has changed the breed in some countries. The NFHR system does not even present the pedigree to the Evaluators at the time of the Evaluation. They only look at what is presented to them not the horses pedigree. The horses are compared to the Breed Standard & scored accordingly. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Shawna, In a message dated 12/27/2002 2:32:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Are you an active member of the NFHR? Then bring your concerns to the board > Yes, indeed we are, and that is exactly what I already have done. The NFHR has already implemented policies to work with this issue of crossbreeding, although I doubt most of us knew about the Fjords going to slaughter situation! Actually, Mike May, Registrar and Executive Director of the NFHR has been exceptionally helpful to the UEF and to me, personally, through the planning stages of rescuing any Fjords that we do not know their origins. The UEF will have an actual Fjord addendum to the adoption contract, which will assist in either registering or at least DNA tying any Fjord or Fjord cross we rescue. Obviously, most will not be able to be registered unless their parents already have DNA samples on file with the NFHR or the CFHA, but I cannot emphasis enough how helpful and supportive the NFHR, and officers of the NFHR, have been through this ordeal. I apologize for bring up a topic you do not care for, but this list has what, 487 members last count? This list is a wonderful tool for all of us to discuss or even debate certain topics pertaining to our Fjords. And like it or not, both crossbreeding and Fjords going to slaughter are realities of our breed, although as of right now, the numbers most likely are small. Lynda
Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/2002 6:22:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Ignoring the problem will not make it go away. All we are doing is closing > our eyes to the problem, in my opinion. > Are you an active member of the NFHR? Then bring your concerns to the board members of the NFHR, if you feel this is being ignored. Get the people who are NFHR owners and breeders looking at it and voting on it, rather than just tossing it around on an email list that probably leaves out a large portion of the NFHR's membership. Shawna
cross breeding and then there is crossbreeding
chosen discipline better (in disciplines where perhaps the Fjord is not so well adapted). Throughout history, this damage has invariably been done to horses and other livestock via fads and fashion in the show ring. The quickest way to add height, or more action, or refine the head, or what ever show breeders sought to do, is to cross. So cross they did. by not guarding the gate (registry) these crosses infiltrated the breed and forever changed it. I AM NOT ADVOCATING this kind of crossing!! I gave you my personal story how I watched a sheep breed be destroyed. Part of the story I did not tell, is that the commercial sheep producers who depended on that breed for their flocks failed to come through and pay a living wage for breeding stock, hence purebred breeders ceased to care what their breed was intended to do and simply chased the bigger dollars in the show ring. The very reason why I came to the Fjord breed, is because all the other smaller draft horse breeds have been ruined by registering crossbreds. But having a policy against cross breeding does little to stop this, as most of it was done under the table anyway. To prevent this kind of damage, more effective tools must be put in place. I think DNA profiles on -every- horse registered, microchipping, and evaluations with an emphasis on the original purpose and qualities of the Fjord, and promoting activities that feature the unique attributes of the Fjord, and breeders who use their horses for work and recreation, are vastly more important to preserving the breed. Janet
cross breeding and then there is crossbreeding
chosen discipline better (in disciplines where perhaps the Fjord is not so well adapted). Throughout history, this damage has invariably been done to horses and other livestock via fads and fashion in the show ring. The quickest way to add height, or more action, or refine the head, or what ever show breeders sought to do, is to cross. So cross they did. by not guarding the gate (registry) these crosses infiltrated the breed and forever changed it. I AM NOT ADVOCATING this kind of crossing!! I gave you my personal story how I watched a sheep breed be destroyed. Part of the story I did not tell, is that the commercial sheep producers who depended on that breed for their flocks failed to come through and pay a living wage for breeding stock, hence purebred breeders ceased to care what their breed was intended to do and simply chased the bigger dollars in the show ring. The very reason why I came to the Fjord breed, is because all the other smaller draft horse breeds have been ruined by registering crossbreds. But having a policy against cross breeding does little to stop this, as most of it was done under the table anyway. To prevent this kind of damage, more effective tools must be put in place. I think DNA profiles on -every- horse registered, microchipping, and evaluations with an emphasis on the original purpose and qualities of the Fjord, and promoting activities that feature the unique attributes of the Fjord, and breeders who use their horses for work and play, are vastly more important to preserving the breed. Janet
Re: cross breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Everyone! I have enjoyed the many posts about rescuing and cross breeding. Coming from a humane society background, I have some pretty strong opinions on the subject of breeding ;-) I know how the slaughterhouse/auction folks must feel. Like animal shelter employees, they're not "the bad guy." SOMETHING must happen to the thousands, tens of thousands (?) of unwanted animals. They aren't going to disappear. In the U.S. we don't eat horses or dogs, so they end up getting put down. It's absurd to blame other countries for eating horse meat and creating a demand. As far as I know, no one in the U.S. is breeding specifically for meat, so where is the supply coming from? There are simply too many horses (and other domestic animals) being bred. The magnitude of this problem is staggering. The pet animal world has tackled the issue by promoting spaying and neutering, which has been very successful. These days our local shelter takes in a few litters of puppies per year. In the past, they took in a few litters of puppies every day. I see no need for cross breeding at all. If you want a grade or rescue animal, there are about a million to be found on the net, in the paper, etc. Why ruin a perfect (no bias here!) breed like the Fjord, or for that matter Friesian, Arab, QH, by randomly crossing it? Is the goal to create a new breed? Make money in stud fees? Get "free horses" by breeding your stallion to your mares? If our goal in the U.S. is for every equine to have a good home and end his days with dignity, shouldn't we work towards that? The only reason for breeding is to improve the breed. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Our http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Fjords http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html";>Fjordings West / )__~ /L /L
cross breeding
This message is from: "Debby Stai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For me its the purity of the fjords, but maybe most important, the responsibility of breeding to begin with. With the discussion so heavy about auctions and slaughterhouses, doesn't it make sense to really pay attention to what is going on within the equine industry. We've had a discussion lately on one of the mini lists I'm on as I have a mini. People cannot sell these little guys, there are mini farms left and right, people breeding and selling, not paying attention to what they are producing, its all about quantity not quality. I'm glad the fjord organization has a rating system even though I've never been to one or taken a fjord, I have 2fjords, one young gelding that would not have done well, I'm glad he was gelded even though for me he'll do well for what I want him for, he would not have been an "asset" to the fjord breed for breeding. I'm happy to leave that to the breeders that are responsible and have only the welfare of this wonderful breed as their top concern. I do feel that way about all breeds though, not just the fjord. Debby
Re: cross-breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > sheep industry and cattle > even further back. Crossbreeding is a solid part of good business We don't want to eat our mistakes, though. Gail Dorine
Cross Breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FYI, When I was in Canada looking for fjords for a friend, there were some breeders that advertise cross breeds with Fjords. I would assume the CFHA would start there IF... they will be searching for breeders that do cross breed. Catherine Lassesen
Re: cross breeding
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [exerpts taken from Dr. Bennett's book CONQUERORS} There apparently were five subspsecies or root stocks from which all domesticated breeds of horses descend. Equus caballus pumpelli, the oriental subspecies evolved south and east of central Europe. this oriental subspecies acquired physical features which adapted it to harder ground and more arid climate:.a special structure for moistening incoming air --large frontal sinuses (one of several structural configurations which can form a "dished face") In the the northwestern part of Europe, with cold winters, and much wet snow, Equus caballus caballus differentiated. The "eskimo" form of it's species, E. caballus caballus possessed a chunky rotund body with short limbs and ears. It frequently had arched nasal bones producing an undulating facial profile, insuring that incoming air would be warmed before reaching the lungs. [that's where the "dished face of the Fjords came from] In the European heartland, the "original" wild horse, Equus caballus mosbachensis became adapted to central European conditions. The fossil record is clear: this was NOT the Przewalski horse or the tarpan. the Przewalski-group developed far to the East. The Westernmost of these Asian forms , the Tarpan gave rise to the Przewalski and other mongolian breeds while in the North, in Siberia, the Lamut wild horse evolved, (which was also in Alaska, BTW) Most breeds of domestic horse are descended either from the Warmblood(Freisian type), Draft (Exmoor, etc.) and Oriental(Arab type) subspecies, or from mixtures of these. After bringing each kind separately into domestication, mankind modified their appearance by selective breeding and by crossing different subspecies to form the modern breeds. *** THERE..I have typed enough! If you want to know more, you will have to read those articles in Equus or The Book CONQUERORS! I'm done! Jean in Fairbanks, Alask, with tired fingers and butt from sitting at the computer. Now I go watch "Survivor"! >As long as you have Deb Bennet as a reference...where did the Arabian horse >originate? Who knows whether the fjord came first and gave it's lovely head >and eyes to the Arab? Jean Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cross breeding
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As long as you have Deb Bennet as a reference...where did the Arabian horse originate? Who knows whether the fjord came first and gave it's lovely head and eyes to the Arab? Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
cross breeding
This message is from: "Lynn Mohr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The "Draft Resources Chat Board" had an ad yesterday for fjord/perch cross bred teams. They are full gelding teams of full brothers, 9 and 10, and 4 and 5. They want $5000/ team. They are in Wyoming. They are advertised as buckskins. Today, someone is inquiring about crossing fjords with drafts or light horses. Thought this may have been of interest considering recent discussions. Lynn Mohr
Bad fjords??? Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/23/00 12:00:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << THere are MANY poor purebred Fjords. THanks Anna >> I hate to be disagreeable, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this one. I think there are very FEW "bad" purebred fjords. The couple there are really stand out though. I'd like to think it is because breeders are very careful who they breed to that this is so. Personally, I'd love to breed one of my mares to Erland. But he's a little too closely related to her, and she is linebred (I agree with Carol about linebred horses, but I like this mare, and when crossed out, she does have some beautiful babies!). Probably I'd agree with you on a lot of other issues Anna, but this isn't one of them. I think the NFHR is being conservative and responsible on this issue, and it is to the benefit of the fjord horse. If it doesn't benefit the other breeds, so be it. Those breeds should look to themselves and breed only the BEST of those breeds, with those breeds best traits, and geld or not breed the inferior ones. That's the best way to improve the other breeds, IMO. I also have a beautiful palomino mare that was bred by a man who has NO problem breeding HYPP positive horses. Luckily, my mare has no Impressive breeding in her, so she's fine. But it is this kind of irresponsible breeding practice that has been the bane of other breeds. I'm glad the NFHR is not going there. Pamela
RE: cross breeding
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 04:05 PM 3/23/00 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I had some questions about this also. What if the neighbor's TB mare gets loose and manages somehow to get together with your prize stallion while nobody's home? Is that stallion removed from the registry? What if a Fjord mare was covered by a stallion that was later de-registered? Is the foal registerable? Cases like these are dealt with by the NFHR's BOD on a case by case basis when all of the facts are known. We can't really have enough rules written to cover every possible scenario. Someone will always come up with another one. I guess these might be dumb questions. I'm not planning on doing any horse breeding in the near (& maybe far) future, but I was curious. There are no dumb questions. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cross breeding
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 03:37 PM 3/23/00 -0500, you wrote: What happens when a stallion or mare was used for crossbreeding, the NFHR finds out, bans the owner, removes the horse's registration, and then a new buyer comes along with the intention to buy the horse for breeding use with other registered Fjords? Will the NFR allow this? Can the horse's registration be given back to the new owner? Yes it can be reinstated if the new owner is willing to become a member and abide by the NFHR rules. I think I saw that Julie already answered this so I won't go any further unless you need more clarification on it. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fjord Breeding (re cross-breeding subject)
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire)
Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -
Everytime I have people visiting our Fjords, and I tell them all about this
wonderful breed, and somewhere along the line I get to the part that our
breed registry DOES NOT ALLOW CROSS-BREEDING, my visitors who are
prospective owners, light up with approval. They love they idea! They
INSTINCTIVELY feel it's the right thing - the smart thing to do. We've
been in Fjords twenty years, and only once have I ever had an argument with
someone on this issue.
In my not so humble opinion, I think this NFHR rule against cross-breeding
is the BEST THING THE REGISTRY EVER DID. It spells out our feeling in no
uncertain terms.
And it's not like the NFHR's position has been created out of nothing.
There's a history behind it. You can talk to Fjord people in Norway and
Holland, and probably the other Fjord countries as well, and find out that
cross-breeding has been tried, and has not been successful. The results of
Fjord cross-breeding have been decidedly unsuccessful.
Yes, you can do it if you wish. Just know that your registered horse will
lose his registration if you do.
There's a history and tradition here. As I understand it, the few
(miniscule) efforts at cross-breeding were an attempt to improve the Fjord.
For example, the Rimfaxe experiment. Nothing worked. They didn't get
anything that could compare to the original. So, that's a given! Why
bother? As to using your Fjords to improve other breeds, well go ahead if
it's important to you. Just realize the consequences.
The other tradition regarding breeding that I have had to defend many
times over the years is LINE BREEDING. There are a lot of people from
other breeds, and a lot of dog breeders who think line breeding is the
"natural" way to go.
My background is the Netherlands Fjordhorse Studbook where they go to great
pains to avoid line breeding. Yes, I know all the arguments about
intensifying desirable characteristics. But, I also know that no horse is
perfect. Each one has undesirable characteristics as well, and if you
linebreed, you're intensifying these along with the good traits. ("Is
linebreeding one word?") -- Anyway, it's a bad idea in my opinion,
although I know it's done a lot in Morgans and Arabs, and probably other
breeds. And it's certainly done a lot in purebred dogs.
Well, this has been an interesting discussion, and I'm totally deleriously
happy that most people are against this odious idea.
More than fifteen years ago, a fellow called me and was interested in
mares. He had a wonderful plan. Not sure I can remember it. But, it was
something like this . . . . He was going to breed the mares to Arab
stallions, then transport them to Venezuela and breed the offspring to some
sort of South American donkey to produce the "world's best pack horses, or
polo ponies", or whatever the heck it was. My impression of that guy was
someone with a "God complex." He wanted to create a race. Imagine the
audacity!
Enough already,
Regards - Carol Rivoire
Carol and Arthur Rivoire
Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II
R.R. 7 Pomquet
Antigonish County
Nova Scotia
B2G 2L4
902 386 2304
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: cross breeding/Dolph's comments
This message is from: "Julie Will" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dolph, in the event a horse had their papers pulled because of cross breeding, and was subsequently sold to a new owner, the new owner could petition the NFHR Board of Directors for a re-instatement. Obviously it would be much better for the breed to have the horse in a new home, and I believe this would be looked upon favorably by the Board. I too am pleased by the lively discussion...a lot of thought going into those responses. I think we have a breed in this country for every purpose one could think of. Why mess around with crosses? What do you do with your "mistakes"? Eat them? Bury them? Or sell them to some other hopeful person who may decide to breed it again...Look at the number of 1/2 Arabs, 3/4 Arabs, 7/8 Arabsnone worth what a purebred is worth.(or used to be??? before all the crossing started???) Yes, there are "bad" Fjords out there, and Fjords that should never be bred. It is going to be hard enough to maintain the quality of this breed (given our American track record of ruining breeds), why add the problem of crosses? Julie Will, Old Hickory Farm 2502 Brick Church Road Weedsport, NY 13166
RE: cross breeding
This message is from: Dolph Courchaine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> First I must congratulate everyone on having a very lively discussion that is respectful of everyone's opinions. In the past I have 'harped' on some previous etiquette problems, as I saw it. With this discussion I have seen none. Hurray! for all of us! Now to my question. What happens when a stallion or mare was used for crossbreeding, the NFHR finds out, bans the owner, removes the horse's registration, and then a new buyer comes along with the intention to buy the horse for breeding use with other registered Fjords? Will the NFR allow this? Can the horse's registration be given back to the new owner? It seems if they don't allow it they are penalizing one person(and possibly the Breed) for another person's actions. We have all agreed that the horse itself is not 'damaged' by being crossbred. Some think the 'breed' as a whole may be lessoned. Anna thinks otherwise. But why should the rule prevent any future 'pure' breeding from happening especially if it is being done buy a breeder who wants to follow the rules? Maybe there is a clause in the rules for this. I was going to ask Mike in private about this, but thought we could all use an answer. Mike or any other member with this knowledge, can you clarify? I agree with some of Lori's comments below. Maybe this rule needs some looking at and a possible adjustment it seems pretty harsh. I would want this for my own protection not for the one's doing the crossbreeding. Anna, has previously posted her stallion for sale. I know it has a good pedigree. If her stallion was removed from the registry, and I felt it would help our breeding program, and wanted to buy it and use it, wouldn't I be the one actually being penalized and possibly the breed itself? thanks Dolph Courchaine Friestadt Fjords Saline MI --- This message is from: Lori Puster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> , but what is the rational behind strongly sanctioning someone for crossing their very own horse for their very own reasons AND NOT ATTEMPTING TO MISREPRESENT THIS ACT (misrepresentation, of course, should be subject to sanction). Yes, there are times when individuals should defer to the good of the group as a whole, but only when the group can rationally articulate why this is so. My horse is registered with the Canadian Fjord Horse Association, and as someone rightly pointed out, this would not be against their rules. Still, I am somewhat taken aback by the "love it or leave it" argument expressed regarding the NFHR. Rules of any organization must make sense--and be open to challenge and change. I, for one, wouldn't really like to see purebred Fjords excluded from the Fjord gene pool because of the actions of their owners. I can see this happening as a consequence of this rule, and I am disturbed by the possibility. Yes, there is nothing, no law etc., stopping people from breeding crosses. But, as we all know, registered animals sell for more money. So there is a coercive economic element. Is that the best or only way address these concerns? Just my two-cents. Respectfully, Lori Puster MoonWise Farm Veneta, OR
Re: cross breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 03/23/2000 10:08:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > My > point is for cross breeding for sport What sport? Frankly I see very few truely great sport horses. Sport to me means 3 day eventing. I've seen fjords do it but never at the higher levels. What would the fjord have to offer? The temperment doesn't always pass on. As a breed they are heavy, though I know not all are. But you can't guarantee that the right traits will pass on. So what are you left with if they don't? A basicly useless horse with possible soundness problems, possible temperment issues, not really "good" at anything. But people expect it to be just like a fjord. I have so many clients who buy mixed (grade) horses and are unhappy when they progress beyond the animals capabilities. I have seen too many "breeders" (read "I own a mare so I have the right to have a baby from her) breed and get geneticly poor offspring. What kind of life will this poor horse have? Kate in CT mom to Baldur
Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: "Anna Rousseau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> YES< it could. So could breeding bad PUREBRED Fjords. So what is your point against crossbreeding? THere are MANY poor purebred Fjords. THanks Anna From: "Larson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Cross Breeding Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:02:27 -0700 This message is from: "Larson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I was going to stay out of this discussion. I told myself repeatedly to stay out...Sigh...Wish I could keep my mouth shut. But I can't so: I do not want to see crossbreeds. It's a simple, mercenary reason. If someone owns or rides or sees a crossbred Fjord who does not have the temperament, willingness and people-orientation of its purebred relatives, they might, very easily, assume the crossbred gets its flaws from the Fjord side. What will that do to my Fjord promotions? It certainly isn't going to help me as a breeder. In that way, cross breeding can definitely HURT the purebred Fjord. __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: cross breeding
This message is from: Lori Puster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >From the sheer number and sometimes hyperbolic tone of the posts, the issue of crossbreeding has struck a nerve. As to my comment on the possibility that many Fjord owners like the attention their horses uniqueness garners, it was not meant to offend. I only wanted to posit what I saw as one possible (unspoken) motive for the NFHR restriction. It's not a bad motive for owning an animal, and may not be a consideration at all for some people, and possibly even a burden for others, but it is certainly part of the mix, and should be acknowledged as such. I'm especially glad that the people with first hand experiences with Fjord crosses chose to chime in. In my opinion, this is the kind of information that we need to share. While the information was largely anecdotal, the indication was that Fjords do not generally cross well with other breeds. This is not conclusive, but good to know. Thank you. As for the "Improving the Fjord Horse with X-breeding" thread. NO ONE, to the best of my knowledge, has suggested INTRODUCING NON-FJORD GENES INTO THE FJORD GENE POOL. I think everyone agrees that that would truly be a mistake. As such is the case, the arguments against this are unnecessary and only serve to confuse the issue. The question isn't whether Americans have ruined certain purebreds (I would tend to agree), or whether crossbreds are better than purebreds or vise versa, but what is the rational behind strongly sanctioning someone for crossing their very own horse for their very own reasons AND NOT ATTEMPTING TO MISREPRESENT THIS ACT (misrepresentation, of course, should be subject to sanction). Yes, there are times when individuals should defer to the good of the group as a whole, but only when the group can rationally articulate why this is so. What I've read thus far it that "look alikes" could confuse the general public and economically devalue purebreds. This makes sense, but as I am not a breeder, it is not a compelling argument for me. Which is not to say that I cannot respect that it is an issue for others. I have also read that this breed, being more archaic than most other breeds, deserves special consideration. Again, this is a fair point, and one worth considering. But it is also an argument for using Fjords to create crosses (for those people who want crosses) that have the low incidence of health problems typical of the archaic breeds. It's the same reason Watutsi cattle have become popular crosses for the European cattle breeds. Additionally, I have read that crossbreds are often treated less well. "Expendable" was the term used. As someone interested in animal rights and a vegetarian to boot, I hate to hear of any animal being treated poorly. When I sell any animal, it is with the understanding that I will always, for any reason, buy it back. Yes, more economically valuable animals are less likely to end up in the slaughterhouse. But to me, this argument is less about the quality of the animal than it is about the quality of the owner. Something to consider in all animal transactions, not just ones involving purebreds. My own interest in the NFHR rule is my fondness for Mules. I would be interested in seeing a Fjord Mule or hearing from anyone who has seen one. I understand the mechanics of prepotency in mule breeding, and I think it would be an excellent cross, especially from the standpoint of temperament. I could be wrong, but I fail to see how it would harm the breed as a whole for me to try breeding one. If someone would address this issue for me, I am more than willing to hear them out. My horse is registered with the Canadian Fjord Horse Association, and as someone rightly pointed out, this would not be against their rules. Still, I am somewhat taken aback by the "love it or leave it" argument expressed regarding the NFHR. Rules of any organization must make sense--and be open to challenge and change. I, for one, wouldn't really like to see purebred Fjords excluded from the Fjord gene pool because of the actions of their owners. I can see this happening as a consequence of this rule, and I am disturbed by the possibility. Yes, there is nothing, no law etc., stopping people from breeding crosses. But, as we all know, registered animals sell for more money. So there is a coercive economic element. Is that the best or only way address these concerns? Just my two-cents. Respectfully, Lori Puster MoonWise Farm Veneta, OR
cross breeding
This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Listwhenever this topic comes up for discussion it makes me crazy. Like many of you Brian and I have passionate views about the topic. As breeders we compete with cross-breds in the marketplace here in B.C. all the time. We are also faced with them in the local show Ring. It takes a lot of self control on my part to deal with the endless questions & comments like 'If it looks like a Fjord then it must be a Fjord. Why should I pay for a pure-bred.' Quite frankly, I'm beyond trying to explain and educate. I'm glad some of you out there have taken on the good fight and are probably much better at it. My hair just stands up on the back of my neck & if PMS is a factor at the time..look out... What saddens me most about crossbred Fjords is that most of them are so expendable. We live near a farm that buys horses for meat and when I go to town and see half-dozen cross bred Fjords in the field ready to be shipped it makes me very sad. There is a PMU farm in Alberta that pumps out cross-bred Fjord babies ever year and somehow some find homes and others don't...When someone buys a cross-bred Fjord and thinks they are getting all the qualities of a pure-bred their 'good deal' is usually short-lived but because the investment is so much less, that animal ends up at auction or on the meat truck. I abhor indescriminant breeding. It serves none and the animal ultimately suffers the consequence of Man's greed and stupidity. I rarely see pure-bred Fjords at general auction because when people pay the price of a well bred Fjord they will usually try to find good homes for their animal and protect their investment. I also rarely see pure-bred Friesans, Andalusians, Lippizaners and Warmbloods of quality at general public auctions. Those of us who love this breed and take care to protect it's genetics to the best of our ability really get offended with the idea of expendable/dispensable Fjords.(any animal for that matter) Most of you feel the same.this is fairly obvious by the sheer number of responses to this List on the topic and the passions tone with which they are written.Hallelujah!!! Ursula & Brian Jensen Trinity Fjords Box 1032 Lumby BC Canada V0E-2G0 http://okjunc.junction.net/~ujensen/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (250) 547-6303
Cross Breeding
This message is from: "Larson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I was going to stay out of this discussion. I told myself repeatedly to stay out...Sigh...Wish I could keep my mouth shut. But I can't so: I do not want to see crossbreeds. It's a simple, mercenary reason. If someone owns or rides or sees a crossbred Fjord who does not have the temperament, willingness and people-orientation of its purebred relatives, they might, very easily, assume the crossbred gets its flaws from the Fjord side. What will that do to my Fjord promotions? It certainly isn't going to help me as a breeder. In that way, cross breeding can definitely HURT the purebred Fjord.
Cross Breeding
This message is from: "Tish Pasqual" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Three cheers to Lisa and others for handling this question, AGREE AGREE AGREE Tish and Elph in Minneapolis
Re: Cross breeding
This message is from: Debby Stai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have a friend at my barn that has Arabs, swears they are THE only horse. I love Arabs, I have one although I wouldn't have another, my personal choice. She's forever telling me to cross by Fjord with an Arab, says it would improve the Fjord. She truly believes Arabs will improve all breeds. Everyone has their own opinion I guess. I'm very new to Fjords but would never breed Amber to anything but the perfect Fjord stallion for her. I do think there are some Fjords that shouldn't be bred, bad conformation or bad attitudes, but thats true with all breeds of animals. I don't think this can compare to the Nazis and Hitler, I think thats a terrible thing to say. This is a registry and these are the rules and you don't have to be a member. I feel very proud to be part of this Fjord Registry, we may not always agree, but we work it out without name calling please, just understanding, much more to this registry than I know as I'm so new. I really think the registry has only the best intentions for this unique breed. Just my opinion. Debby in TX Laurie Pittman wrote: > This message is from: "Laurie Pittman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > I've seen Fjords crossed to Arabians, what you ended up with was a horse > > with a beautiful Arab type head, the Fjord neck & shoulders, large through > > the body on little tiny fine boned Arab legs, not an improvement for > either > > breed. > > This sounds just like a Fjord/Hackney cross that I saw once. I couldn't help > but wonder how long it would stay sound. No improvement there! > > Laurie
Re: cross breeding
This message is from: "Anna Rousseau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ron: No one was talking about entering a Fjord show with a cross, nor were we trying to change your mind. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I say maintain your purebreds, I am very much for that and not infusing any other breed to "better" the Fjord. Keep it what it is and has always been. My point is for cross breeding for sport, what harm does breeding a stallion out mean? You can't register the offspring! Anna From: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: Subject: cross breeding Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:25:23 -0800 This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To all you cross breeders out there, I say ENOUGH ALREADY! Do you really know what you are talking about? We have been blessed with this magnificent animal and the very idea of breeding to anything but a pure bred Fjord should be completely out of the question for any responsible individual! This is a free country and you are free to do as you please but just keep in mind that economically your choice to cross breed is a poor one and if you are ever looking forward to entering into any of the Fjord shows in the U.S. you will need to show papers and you will be ousted from them on the spot. If you love the Fjord horse so much or claim to, why in the world would you want to mess it up! No need to respond to this post. I will never change my mind and instead of all this talk about cross breeding, why not try to improve what we have by doing some selective breeding within the pure breeds to refine and polish this wonderful breed we love. "Happy Trails" RD __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: Cross breeding
This message is from: "Anna Rousseau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sherrie: YOu cannot generalize in such a statement. How can you say what each cross will definately look like? Only God has that power. How many Fjord crosses have you seen? Anna From: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: Subject: Cross breeding Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:38:40 -0800 This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This is to address the issue of crossbreeding that Anna raised. Crossbred Fjords are not an improvement to either breed that they're crossed with. I've seen Fjords crossed to Arabians, what you ended up with was a horse with a beautiful Arab type head, the Fjord neck & shoulders, large through the body on little tiny fine boned Arab legs, not an improvement for either breed. The Quarterhorse/Fjord cross produced a horse with the Fjord neck and heavier front end of the Fjord and lost all that lightning quickness of the Quarterhorse. Quarterhorses tend to have pretty good bone so there again, no improvement to either one. Fjords crossed to Welsh pony's don't improve either breed. We have friends that raise Welsh's and they're gorgeous all on their own, crossed to a Fjord they loose some of the refinement and action that the Welsh usually has as a purebred. In all cases of crossbeeding Fjords the one thing that doesn't get passed on to the other breed is the Fjord disposition. I have not seen a Fjord cross that created a "better horse" no matter what it was crossed with. The Fjord breed ends up getting a bad rap for a bad dispositioned horse that looks like a Fjord and tends to get passed off as "A Fjord" , not a part Fjord. Bottom line, crossing a Fjord to another doesn't improve either one. Sherrie Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
cross breeding
This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To all you cross breeders out there, I say ENOUGH ALREADY! Do you really know what you are talking about? We have been blessed with this magnificent animal and the very idea of breeding to anything but a pure bred Fjord should be completely out of the question for any responsible individual! This is a free country and you are free to do as you please but just keep in mind that economically your choice to cross breed is a poor one and if you are ever looking forward to entering into any of the Fjord shows in the U.S. you will need to show papers and you will be ousted from them on the spot. If you love the Fjord horse so much or claim to, why in the world would you want to mess it up! No need to respond to this post. I will never change my mind and instead of all this talk about cross breeding, why not try to improve what we have by doing some selective breeding within the pure breeds to refine and polish this wonderful breed we love. "Happy Trails" RD
Re: Cross breeding
This message is from: "Laurie Pittman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I've seen Fjords crossed to Arabians, what you ended up with was a horse > with a beautiful Arab type head, the Fjord neck & shoulders, large through > the body on little tiny fine boned Arab legs, not an improvement for either > breed. This sounds just like a Fjord/Hackney cross that I saw once. I couldn't help but wonder how long it would stay sound. No improvement there! Laurie
Cross breeding
This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This is to address the issue of crossbreeding that Anna raised. Crossbred Fjords are not an improvement to either breed that they're crossed with. I've seen Fjords crossed to Arabians, what you ended up with was a horse with a beautiful Arab type head, the Fjord neck & shoulders, large through the body on little tiny fine boned Arab legs, not an improvement for either breed. The Quarterhorse/Fjord cross produced a horse with the Fjord neck and heavier front end of the Fjord and lost all that lightning quickness of the Quarterhorse. Quarterhorses tend to have pretty good bone so there again, no improvement to either one. Fjords crossed to Welsh pony's don't improve either breed. We have friends that raise Welsh's and they're gorgeous all on their own, crossed to a Fjord they loose some of the refinement and action that the Welsh usually has as a purebred. In all cases of crossbeeding Fjords the one thing that doesn't get passed on to the other breed is the Fjord disposition. I have not seen a Fjord cross that created a "better horse" no matter what it was crossed with. The Fjord breed ends up getting a bad rap for a bad dispositioned horse that looks like a Fjord and tends to get passed off as "A Fjord" , not a part Fjord. Bottom line, crossing a Fjord to another doesn't improve either one. Sherrie Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: William Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The February issue of Equus has an excellent article on crossbreeding "The question of Purity". Goes through the history of horses and how most were crossbred somehow but also makes the case to keep strong purebred lines to insure the diversity that we now have in types of horses.
Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: Anneli Sundkvist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sherri wrote: >>Depending on what it was crossed with it can look like a Pure Bred Fjord to a none Fjord person.>> This happens here in Sweden where fjords have been rather common, and most horse-people therefore have seen a few fjords. When I worked in the pony camp (80+ fjords) I encountered a family who had bought a "pure-bred fjordhorse" who they brought to the camp (sometimes the kids brought their own horses). When the horse came out of the trailer it was quite clear that she was a pony-cross. Smaller, darker, thinner than any of our fjords (that were of all sizes) and with somewhat different markings - the mane more greyish, the legs darker, the markings on the head different. I told the family that their horse was not a pure-bred fjord and they just REFUSED TO BELIVE ME! Outside the stable some 20 PUREBRED FJORDS were tied up waiting to have farrier work done. The family just couldn't see the diffrence between their horse and these horses. Then the owner of the camp turned up and spontaneously said something like: "Oh, a pony-cross." That made the family realise that MABYE I know what I was talking about. I later explained to them that I had nothing against their horse but I didn't want what was obviously a cross be labeled as a purebred fjord. The family that had brought a broadmare and came to have her covered by our sire is another (sad) story. We thought the mare looked a bit strange (very heavy, dark, undefined markings etc) when unloaded and asked to se her papers. She was by a Belgian stallion out of a fjordmare and had been sold to the family as a broadmare! They didn't know enough about bloodlines to realise what she was. They had bought a mare because they wanted to breed from here and ended up with this horse, who they loved dearly but was not what they wanted. We all know that horses sometimes don't turn out the way you have expected - but in this case the mare never had the possibility to become the horse they dreamed of because she was not pure-bred. I'm sure she would have been the right horse for somebody who wanted a horse for logging, driving and/or farmwork (beeing very drafty) but the seller just wanted to make some extra $$$ to sell her as a broad mare! I often hear people who own cross-breds say that their horses 'look just like a purebred fjord'. So far, I haven't seen a cross-bred who actually DO look like a pure-bred, but many non-fjord-people haven't seen enough 'real' fjords to recognize the characteristics of the breed and to know what diffrences that are TO different. In many cases, the cross-breds that are sold as pure-breds are bought to be riding/driving horses and in those cases the 'damage' is limited, but IF the owners want to breed there are problems: most stallion-owners don't accept the mare, which makes the owners disappointed. But som fjord-stallion-owners actually DO ACCEPT crossbreds which results in MORE cross-breds. A cross-bred can be a nice HORSE but it's not a FJORDHORSE! Regards Anneli ** Anneli Sundkvist Dept. of Archaeology & Ancient History St. Eriks torg 5 75310 Uppsala SWEDEN +46-18-4712082 (work) +46-18-553627 (home)
Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On cross breeding; Finn Casperson who sponsored Bill Long in the early days crossed Fjords with an Arab stallion I believe. Finn loves Fjords and has always been most positive when awarding them ribbons at Gladstone. He believed that the Arab would fancy them up a bit, possibly give them a little more suspension and improve their endurance. I have only seen two of the resulting offspring and they looked like very plain Fjords, their manes were trimmed upright, they were brown duns very able ponies, but extremely heavy in the front end. I am not familiar with his foundation stock nor the Arab that was used and this was done a long time ago before there was any ban or for that matter any truly well organized American registry. He and Bill eventually went on to Warmbloods and subsequently won the Four-In-Hands at Royal Windsor. In Vermont about 10 years ago there was a Fjord/Connemara cross who did all right in some competitive drives and then disappeared to where or whom I don't know. Several years ago in Southern Pines a friend pointed out two Fjord/Quarter Horse crosses. Not quite as Fjordy as Finn's crosses, but I was told that both were very good low level event ponies. Neither was very pretty, looked like Appy crosses and their manes were long. This post in no way reflects how I feel about crossing Fjords thought I'd just mention them as interesting sidenotes to discussion. None of them was a total disaster, all of them were being used which is more than I can say about a lot of full Fjords and the sky did not come crashing down on those responsible for their existence. I don't care to cross breed Fjords because one of the reasons I got involved with the breed was their long heritage and purity which from a breeding standpoint makes for a more interesting project. Vivian Creigh
Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sherrie, You made some very good points about why not to crossbreed the Fjord. I had no idea it's been tried so many times! I assume these are people experimenting in their own backyards, but I agree, horses like this will make it to the general public and it could hurt the breed. I know of a case where a donkey "accidentally" bred a Fjord mare and the offspring looked exactly like a Fjord. You'd never know it was crossbreed, except it had an AWFUL temperament.
Re: Cross Breeding
This message is from: "Laurie Pittman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well said Sherrie! I think that input like this goes a lot further than just saying "because it's the rule." I think it helps for people that ask to understand the reasons for the rules. Laurie
Cross Breeding
This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi List, I'd like to add my 2 cents worth to the discussion on breeding Fjords with other breeds. The basic rules of the Registry on not allowing cross breeding is to protect and preserve the breed in this country. I know that there have been some very good breeds created from breeding two different breeds together, the Quarter Horse come to mind. For those of you that have never seen a Fjord cross the strongest thing that stands out in the cross is the basic Fjord look. The neck, shoulders, general build, even the mane, lighter or white on the outside with the dark down the center. Depending on what it was crossed with it can look like a Pure Bred Fjord to a none Fjord person. There are a lot of cross bred Fjords in this area, I've seen Fjords crossed with Shetlands, Welch's, Quarter horses, Arabians, Percherons, and a mix of Hackney and POA. The one thing that doesn't seem to cross well is that special Fjord disposition. What you end up with is a horse that looks like a Fjord but doesn't behave like one and that's where the problem lies. Because Fjords are still rare in this country and the world for that matter, they're somewhat of a "status" thing. People that own cross bred Fjords are not honest up front about the fact that its only part Fjord. If you approach them and ask "Is that a Fjord? ", the answer is always YES, its only after talking with them for a while that they tell you that its only part Fjord. When they enter it in open Horse shows they enter it as a Fjord, then when it behaves in a less then Fjord manner it gives all Fjords a bad image because the general public thinks that's the way all Fjords behave. In other words it hurts all of us and the breed. It makes all Fjords look bad We all fell in love with this breed because it was different, it was special, most of us have had other breeds before we came to know Fjords, if we cross this breed with other breeds what we end up with is any old grade horse, and there are a lot of good grade horses out there for a lot less money then what it cost's for a Fjord. Over time the Norwegians created and perfected this breed that we all love, why would we want to try and create something else and run the risk of destroying what makes this breed special. The gene pool for Fjords is very small world wide, it wouldn't take a lot of outside blood in the gene pool to destroy what is has taken so long to create. Just my opinion, don't be hard on me, I just love this breed the way it is and don't want to see it hurt. Sherrie
cross breeding/stallion reports
This message is from: "Julie Will" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> NFHR stallions are required to file a stallion breeding report at the end of every year, and if they fail to file, their stallion is not included in the stallion listing in the Herald, and offspring cannot be registered. There is a $100 fine for late filing. It is also against NFHR rules to cross a Fjord stallion or mare with any other breed or species (zebra, donkey), and doing so will result in the owner losing all NFHR privileges including registration of any horses. Incidences of intentional cross breeding should be reported to an NFHR Board member or to Mike May..
Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Carol Rivoire wrote: I would never again take a chance on grafted (cross-bred) roses. It was obvious that you don't know what you're getting. You're not getting a pure-bred, and you're likely to be in for some surprises. So that's what I think of cross-breeding. Carol, Although I am sure I don't need to teach you about "the birds and the bees", I should point out that grafted roses (or grafted anything else for that matter) is not cross-breeding. Both the rootstock and the scion remain "whole" genetically. This is not sexual reproduction where the offspring is a hybrid, that is, composed of some genetic material from each of the parents. Often, with grafted stock, the problem is with the scion not being as hardy as the rootstock, or more disease susceptible, etc. Sometimes the problem is with the graft union itself. Often, rootstocks are used because they convey some sort of advantage over an "own-rooted' plant. An example is a "dwarf" fruit tree where it is the rootstock which causes the dwarfing regardless of which cultivar is put on it. I wouldn't disagree with your comments about cross-breeding though in the sense that I have tried growing hybrid roses with limited success, and find that, while they will sometimes live and produce big "showy" flowers, they often are more susceptible to diseases and insects, and most typically are not winter hardy at 1500 feet elevation in Western Mass. However, the antique white 'tea" rose that has been part of the farmstead for countless years, blooms year after year, and, while it is not completely resistant to insects or diseases, is apparently able to tolerate pests much better than the fancy hybrids. --- William M. Coli Extension Educator Department of Entomology Agricultural Engineering Bldg. University of Massachusetts Amherst MA 01003 Phone: 413-545-1051 Fax: 413-545-5858 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Excellence is an art won by training and habituation" Aristotle
Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:30 AM 7/31/99 -0300, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Good Morning from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Naturally, I don't expect Steve McIlree to prohibit all mention of this subject. What I would expect is that either Mike May, or someone from the Board, or a knowledgeable member would remind anyone who brought it up of the rule, and would do so by quoting the rule verbatim. Well when this discussion came up this time I believe I was on vacation. In Canada in fact. By the time I read or deleted some of the 600 plus messages that came in while I was gone you had already posted the rule. I didn't see the need to repeat it again. Thanks for reminding everyone of the rule. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Good Morning from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Since there was significant negative response re my feelings that cross-breeding Fjords should not be a subject of discussion, I began to question my definition of the word "discuss". To me "discuss" means an open exchange of ideas on the pros and cons of a certain subject, but being uncertain as I was, I went to the dictionary. It's a Canadian Dictionary of the English language, but even so, this is what it said. 1. To speak with others about, 2. To consider, to examine. --- And the word "discussion" was defined as - "Consideration of a subject by a group." Naturally, I don't expect Steve McIlree to prohibit all mention of this subject. What I would expect is that either Mike May, or someone from the Board, or a knowledgeable member would remind anyone who brought it up of the rule, and would do so by quoting the rule verbatim. It seems to me that this "Important Reminder Notice from the NFHR Board of Directors" says it all, and ends the discussion. Anyone who reads the Herald, or the NFHR webpage knows the Registry's rule on cross-breeding, but for those who may be new to the breed, and new to this List, here it is - NOTICE FROM THE NFHR BOARD OF DIRECTORS!!! "In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list." Sorry, but after reading this ruling, I can't for the life of me see any room left for discussion . . . unless someone wanted to argue against, which of course, is their democratic right. ~~~ And, Karen, my antique roses are glorious, even standing up to the drought we've had this summer. Most of the 200 or so I've planted are doing very well. However, I did have some failures, and those failures were due to CROSS-BREEDING. When I got interested in antique roses, some experts recommended only roses grown on their own rootstock, rather than grafted roses. However, other "experts" said it didn't matter, so the first year I planted 45 of the grafted kind. They did fabulously. Grew huge and bloomed like crazy the first year. Instant Gratification! However, next Spring, some of them had died, and others had considerable die back. The Spring after, more of the grafted roses died, and the others had so much die-back, they took forever to recover and bloom. That winter, pouring over garden catalogues, I decided to buy roses from a grower in the coldest part of New Brunswick who sold roses "on their own roots." When the 40 plants arrived the following Spring, I was disappointed they were so small and puny. Nothing like the big and robust grafted roses I knew. However, with a lot of grumbling and complaining, I planted the little twigs, and watched them over the summer. It was like watching paint drying on the wall. The roses grew, but nothing spectacular happened. No Instant Grafitcation. The following Spring, every damned one of those roses was alive and thriving, and every year since, they've done exceedingly well, and I'm thorougly satisfied with what I've got. However, I did have a surprise this year which, I think, further illustrates my point. One of the original roses (the grafted kind) had a gorgeous lipstick pink color. It kept almost dying each year, but I was particularly anxious to save it because of the unusual color. I moved it four times, really babied it, and it seemed to be doing OK. Last year, in its new location, it was growing very well, but didn't bloom. I wasn't upset, I was just happy with the growth, and willing to wait another year for bloom. This year, the bush was even bigger and healthier, but there were very few buds. "Oh well," I said. "I'll be happy with even a few of those gorgeous lipstick colored flowers." And then the disappointment. The bush bloomed, and the flowers were tiny, puny, insignificant, & white. -- It had reverted to its rootstock. The lipstick colored flowers were no more. I would never again take a chance on grafted (cross-bred) roses. It was obvious that you don't know what you're getting. You're not getting a pure-bred, and you're likely to be in for some surprises. So that's what I think of cross-breeding. I can sum up my feelings by quoting our wonderful neighbor, George who says, "WHY FRIG WITH MOTHER NATURE?" Best Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: Cross breeding
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Lauren, I like the thought you are expressing. The object of this animated discussion, cross-breeding, is being looked at as some horrible creature. The cross I saw in the field was a nice appearing horse that left me wondering what the crossing consisted of. It is probably a well loved horse as he appears fat and friendly. In the old days we regarded people"bastards" as social misfits. That was terrible as they were just like anyone else but the taint of illegitimacy touched them and so they were hidden or exiled from upper society. Plus often ridiculed by lower social groups in that timing. Look at how much society has come about! Single parent families. And if you grab onto "well look at society today" read The Tale of Two Cities etc. I think we get to tunnel visioned yet it does protect the breed that we hold so dear. Jean PS Joel do you notice that you are the only person who constantly complains about people not erasing? Mary Thurman gave me a good suggestion when you were complaining about me...the repeated message has a > in front of each sentence so you can scan right over it. Should save you a lot of frustration. Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle -Original Message- From: fjords <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Fjord Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, July 31, 1999 8:55 AM Subject: Cross breeding >This message is from: "fjords" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >In France apparently the best horses for buggy competitions are a fjord >crossed with a thoroughbred. I have heard that they are the worlds >finest for speed & endurance. I have never layed eyes on one yet. But >keep an open mind >In Canada Cross breeding has no severe penalty. It is practised by many. >I have seen many, many crossbred fjords and never have seen one as great >as a purebred fjord. I have been offered good money to cross breed and >have turned them down. I truely feel it is a honour to uphold the finest >bloodlines and keep them pure. Open discussion & open minds are what >bring enlightenment. Honestly the purebred fjord is the best. As >breeders to uphold the purity issue we must be totally conscious of whom >we sell stud colts to ie a horseman with 10 -15 different crossbreeds in >his field. If he is too young to geld I have written contracts that the >buyer must geld or pay so many thousand dollars extra. It has worked the >vet certificate tells all. >There is lots yet to be said on this issue. I have numerous calls from >people whom want a fjord but can't afford them . They want a good >unregistered horse. I know of many, possibly due to illiteracy on the >owners part. So is it a crime to move these horses? or is it a crime not >to when someone needs a good safe horse.? This question is high on my >mind. I never have had anything but purebreds on the farm to date. >Maybe we should gather photo's of all the crossbred fjords as an >educational tool to promote the purity issue. >Food for thought >Lauren Sellars >www.fjordhorse.net > >
Cross breeding
This message is from: "fjords" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In France apparently the best horses for buggy competitions are a fjord crossed with a thoroughbred. I have heard that they are the worlds finest for speed & endurance. I have never layed eyes on one yet. But keep an open mind In Canada Cross breeding has no severe penalty. It is practised by many. I have seen many, many crossbred fjords and never have seen one as great as a purebred fjord. I have been offered good money to cross breed and have turned them down. I truely feel it is a honour to uphold the finest bloodlines and keep them pure. Open discussion & open minds are what bring enlightenment. Honestly the purebred fjord is the best. As breeders to uphold the purity issue we must be totally conscious of whom we sell stud colts to ie a horseman with 10 -15 different crossbreeds in his field. If he is too young to geld I have written contracts that the buyer must geld or pay so many thousand dollars extra. It has worked the vet certificate tells all. There is lots yet to be said on this issue. I have numerous calls from people whom want a fjord but can't afford them . They want a good unregistered horse. I know of many, possibly due to illiteracy on the owners part. So is it a crime to move these horses? or is it a crime not to when someone needs a good safe horse.? This question is high on my mind. I never have had anything but purebreds on the farm to date. Maybe we should gather photo's of all the crossbred fjords as an educational tool to promote the purity issue. Food for thought Lauren Sellars www.fjordhorse.net
Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING
This message is from: "B. Hendricks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The Friesian folk don't allow cross breeding, either, at least the Dutch reg. I can see why. Some of the crosses turn out looking icky, and it gets blamed on the Friesian, no matter what the other horse is. The ones (Friesian breeders) who insisted on doing it anyway got kicked out and had to form their own registry. Bonnie Please visit my web sites: Commissioned Horse Portraits, Oil Paintings, Prints, Books http://www.hendricksgallery.com and http://members.xoom.com/BHendricks/Gallery1.html - Original Message - From: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 5:53 PM Subject: Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING > This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Oh Good Grief, Carol. > > If we don't discuss it how will people new to the breed who are not members > of NFHR KNOW that is is wrong to cross breed? And why? Like my vet..He'd
Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Carol, I for one, agree with the other list members-it SHOULD be discussed here. Regards, Bernadine Karns Nottawa Crossing Fjords Marshall, Michigan USA
Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 7/30/99 10:47:40 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << It's like having a casual discussion about pedophilia. Before the discussion it's unmentionable and unthinkable . . . But with discussion, it becomes thinkable. . . and maybe to someone out there, it becomes do-able. >> I agree with a lot of things you say, but not this. Pedophilia is a known evil. Speaking about it does not change the fact in any way shape or form. BUT with horse breeding, lots of horse breeds think nothing of outcrossing their horses, so a newcomer coming in may not understand the thinking and motivation behind NOT crossbreeding. They may think of it more as improving the other breed, and not really be thinking about how it could be detrimental to the fjord breed. Open discussions clear the air and let new people know the whys and hows of the rule. When I bought my first fjord I was approached by somebody who wanted to breed their arab stallion to her. Not being aware of the rule, I didn't have a "legal" reason not to, but told him it just didn't feel right. With less than 4000 Fjords in the country, I couldn't see wasting the gene pool of my mare on an arab stallion. Now that I've been "educated", I know that the Fjord Registry is very strict about this subject. Wouldn't have known unless somebody educated me. And I know why. I have a feeling this subject will come up again and again as new people join the list with their new fjords. I would rather have the discussion here than see some halfbreds out there because people were not comfortable talking about the subject. Pamela
Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - > >I do not like the idea of discussing cross-breeding Fjords on this casual, >public forum. > Oh Good Grief, Carol. If we don't discuss it how will people new to the breed who are not members of NFHR KNOW that is is wrong to cross breed? And why? Like my vet..He'd like to cross breed one of his mares to my friend's Fjord stallion..who refused by the way. My vet thinks that it is a pompus attitude (his words) and can't understand why not. So we try to explain it to him. So THAT's why I think it should not be FORBIDDEN to discuss it! Just my 2 cents. Jean in Fairbanks, ALaska Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TO DISCUSS OR NOT DISCUSS CROSS-BREEDING
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - I do not like the idea of discussing cross-breeding Fjords on this casual, public forum. My opinion was and is that since cross-breeding Fjords IS STRICTLY, AND WITHOUT EXCEPTION, PROHIBITED, this subject should not be up for discussion. The Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry stritcly forbids cross-breeding and will enact extremely serious penalties on anyone who engages in it, and on those horses used. The people will be stripped of membership and privileges in the registry, and the horses will lose their registration papers. Both these measures are severe for good reasons. Anyone who engages in this practice is doing serious harm to the breed and harming all other owners as well. I just don't see any reason for such a discussion, or anything positive that can come of such a discussion. It's like having a casual discussion about pedophilia. Before the discussion it's unmentionable and unthinkable . . . But with discussion, it becomes thinkable. . . and maybe to someone out there, it becomes do-able. Best Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Cross Breeding!
This message is from: "Betsy Bauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol Rivoire wrote ... http://www.fjordpony.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cross-Breeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hi from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - The discussion about cross-breeding disturbs me. To me, it's a subject not even open for discussion. In my mind, the #1 Basic, Fundamental Tenet of the NFHR that cross-breeding is VERBOTEN, FORBIDDEN, UNTHINKABLE! And any owner caught using his mare or stallion on another breed, will lose the registration of that mare or stallion. The reason the discussion bothers me is that I remember very well many years ago, back when the NFHR was just getting going, a Vice President said to me when I called her about a registry member using his stallion on mares of other breeds. This woman said something like, "Well, he needs the money, and who can blame him." I was appalled! This Vice President went on to say that, "If the membership should decide that using registered NFHR Fjords for cross-breeding is OK, then we'll change the rules prohibiting it." I'm disturbed by this kind of thinking because I don't think you change FUNDAMENTAL TENETS that easily, even if this is a democracy, and even if at a certain point in time, the majority should wish it. As far as I know, the NFHR rules still state that anyone using a mare or a stallion to breed with another breed, will lose his papers for that mare or stallion. --- Please tell me this is still a NFHR rule. Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Cross breeding Fjords
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I believe all of the Fjord registries disapprove of cross breeding the Fjords with other breeds. To preserve the breed we need to keep it pure. I think the NFHR does take away the registration of Fjords that are PURPOSELY used for cross breeding. Do you know about this Mike? OTOH I have this recurring fantasy (nightmare?) of breeding my white dun (Ulsblakke) mare to a black Friesian Stallion and getting a grey (Blue dun or Grulla) offspring with a flowing bi-color mane and tail, Blue grey body color and black legs with black feathers. The neck would gain some length but the head would be Fjord like! And of course I would call it a "Fjorzian"! Jean in snowy Fairbanks, AK Gotta do SOMETHING while waiting for the farrier to show up! t 09:28 AM 10/21/98 -0700, you wrote: >This message is from: Evers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I have a question We have acquired our Fjords,Ellinor, >,Islys.,Taffy Emily & her colt. A few wks. ago we perched a beautiful Gray >Stud Bjorn. . > We ARE asked about our Stud Bjorn, Fees & Would we consider breeding >to a Fjord that is not Reg. Or a mare that is not a Fjord. , I am asking >this as a Question . Are there any rules to this ??. We have had QH & Paint >Studs in the past and there was always a few that bred to outside mares. > Please this question about the stud is not ment to start in on anyone as >to what should be done & what has been in the past . We would like to know >what we should do, that is right from the start. > Its a cold day in central OREGON. Have a nice day where ever you are >.Tillie >Bud & Tillie Evers >Dun Lookin' Fjords >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/8589 > > ** Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cross breeding Fjords
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:50 AM 10/21/98 -0800, you wrote: >This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >I believe all of the Fjord registries disapprove of cross breeding the >Fjords with other breeds. To preserve the breed we need to keep it pure. I >think the NFHR does take away the registration of Fjords that are PURPOSELY >used for cross breeding. Do you know about this Mike? > You are correct Jean. >OTOH I have this recurring fantasy (nightmare?) of breeding my white dun >(Ulsblakke) mare to a black Friesian Stallion and getting a grey (Blue dun >or Grulla) offspring with a flowing bi-color mane and tail, Blue grey body >color and black legs with black feathers. The neck would gain some length >but the head would be Fjord like! And of course I would call it a "Fjorzian"! > But you already have the perfect horse. You can't improve on perfection! ;-) Mike == Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
