Re: Bit seats in molars
This message is from: Emily Wigley [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 31, 2008, at 9:16 PM, fjordhorse-digest wrote: No No ! Better get a new trainer ! You don't need a bit seat period!! Learn to rein with out the reins, using your seat, timing, legs, voice. Amen! I second that! I'll third it as loudly as possible! A bit seat is a placein the molars which has been ground/filed down. Those that do so do it because they feel that there should be a place for the bit. Those of us who do not feel that nature has given plenty of room with the natural bar of the mouth, where there are no teeth between the incisors and the molars - plenty of room for a bit. There is no less and no more control garnered from a bit seat, it's just something that some horsemen think is a good idea. I have no idea how it started or where. After 35 years of dressage and jumping, I have never personally worked with a horse with a bit seat. Occasionally my vet mentions it when I have a young horse vetted for purchase, and I always calmly say no thank you, while internally I begin to boil. Emily Emily Wigley ARIA Certified Instructor - dressage and stable management Fish Bowl Farm • Vashon Island, Washington • www.fishbowlfarm.com • [EMAIL PROTECTED] The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Bit seats in molars
This message is from: Kimberly Kinney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning All! The definitions of bit seat I've read here sound like floating the teeth. Can someone tell us the difference between the two? Thanks!! Kimberly Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Bit seats in molars
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am absolutely no expert on bit seats. But I am a trained researcher. Here is some info I found on the pros and cons of bit seats: A bit seat is created by filing off the front corners of the large molars just behind the bars. Some folks feel a bit seat will prevent the tongue from getting pinched against sharp points of the molars if the bit rides back too far in the mouth and pinches the soft tongue or cheek tissue between the teeth and bit. There is some truth to that opinion. The bit can rub on those molars and pinch or cut soft tissue if the rider rides with aggressive or heavy contact (an untrained rider, aggressive rider), if the bit fits incorrectly, or if the horse habitually chews on the bit. Correct use of the bit (light contact/light hands), proper bit fit, and recognizing and addressing any horse's behavioral issues are alternatives to making a bit seat. I get the impression that mild smoothing and rounding of any sharp edges on these front molars is certainly appropriate and reasonable. This may be what some folks have in mind when they talk about a bit seat, and this kind of tooth care appears to be an entirely appropriate and acceptable thing to do. That's not what some folks want for a bit seat however. They want a large amount of tooth removed right down to the gum line. This kind of aggressive removal of tooth material is most definitely not in the best interests of the horse. See photo 4 from this Appaloosa Journal article: The corners of the front molars have been deeply and intentionally filed off to create a deep bit seat. Source: http://www.appaloosajournal.com/magazine/horsekeeping/bitseat.html From the Australian Equine Dental Practice comes this opinion: ...Removing material off the molars by filing can diminish the horse's chewing ability. For example, one tooth completely smoothened on the left and the right molar arcade such as done by some to create a bit seat, means the loss of more than 15% of the total feed grinding surface of the horse. The 'bit seat' concept ... implies the bit is seated on the teeth, where it should not be. Proponents of this treatment will file the first bottom molar teeth down to the gumline. This will lead to: * Loss of essential dental material for grinding the feed... * Encouraging the horse to clench and grind the bit at will as the bit can be easily pulled between the teeth by the rider or driver. This can make the horse a 'puller' which who not responsive to the bit. It is important that the bit rests in front of the first lower molars which ensures the horse will be much more responsive to the bit and therefore the rider. Injury will be prevented and the horse will be very comfortable if the corners of these molars are moderately rounded by the dentist Source: http://www.horsecalendar.com/Frame2CareerPage.html A similar point of view is expressed in this research article: So called ‘bit seats’ ... are meant to create more comfort with the bit, but over aggressive reduction of these teeth can cause much discomfort The term, ‘bit seat’ is a misnomer, because a properly fitted bit should not contact the premolars. Many horses experience discomfort or sensitivity to the teeth after a ‘bit seat’ has been created, due to the large amount of sensitive dental tissue that was removed. ...If the tooth is aggressively reduced, the pulp chamber may be inadvertently entered, leading to bacterial infection and often death of the tooth. Another reason for increased sensitivity is thermal damage to the pulp inflicted by aggressive reduction. Thermal damage can cause a pulpitis, and if the damage is severe, death of the pulp and so death of the tooth Source: Dental Conditions Affecting the Mature Performance Horse (5-15 Years), 2006, Thomas J. Johnson, DVM and Colleen M. Porter, DVM. http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepfocus/2006/johnson4.pdf Note: Some of the photos in this article are not recommended for the faint of heart. DeeAnna The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: Bit seats in molars
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Deanna for the excellent research. For those of you gasping in horror at the thought that my horses mouth is somehow ruined or compromised by having the dentist (a vet btw), install a bit seat, please know that it's just fine. After he did the filing,etc, I was able to feel the difference and see it with a light, while the speculum was still on her face. I'd say he took down the front 1/2 of surface area of the top of the tooth, maybe about 1/8or a tad more off the top. I went back to using a Myler bit on her, it's a level 2 I think w/ more of a port to it for tongue relief. She's happiest in it. And no, I don't reef on my horses mouths, but I will use a strong half halt now and again. Karen Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords :: Madras, Oregon http://www.picturetrail.com/weegees Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:54:12 -0600 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Bit seats in molars This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am absolutely no expert on bit seats. But I am a trained researcher. Here is some info I found on the pros and cons of bit seats: A bit seat is created by filing off the front corners of the large molars just behind the bars. Some folks feel a bit seat will prevent the tongue from getting pinched against sharp points of the molars if the bit rides back too far in the mouth and pinches the soft tongue or cheek tissue between the teeth and bit. There is some truth to that opinion. The bit can rub on those molars and pinch or cut soft tissue if the rider rides with aggressive or heavy contact (an untrained rider, aggressive rider), if the bit fits incorrectly, or if the horse habitually chews on the bit. Correct use of the bit (light contact/light hands), proper bit fit, and recognizing and addressing any horse's behavioral issues are alternatives to making a bit seat. I get the impression that mild smoothing and rounding of any sharp edges on these front molars is certainly appropriate and reasonable. This may be what some folks have in mind when they talk about a bit seat, and this kind of tooth care appears to be an entirely appropriate and acceptable thing to do. That's not what some folks want for a bit seat however. They want a large amount of tooth removed right down to the gum line. This kind of aggressive removal of tooth material is most definitely not in the best interests of the horse. See photo 4 from this Appaloosa Journal article: The corners of the front molars have been deeply and intentionally filed off to create a deep bit seat. Source: http://www.appaloosajournal.com/magazine/horsekeeping/bitseat.html From the Australian Equine Dental Practice comes this opinion: ...Removing material off the molars by filing can diminish the horse's chewing ability. For example, one tooth completely smoothened on the left and the right molar arcade such as done by some to create a bit seat, means the loss of more than 15% of the total feed grinding surface of the horse. The 'bit seat' concept ... implies the bit is seated on the teeth, where it should not be. Proponents of this treatment will file the first bottom molar teeth down to the gumline. This will lead to: * Loss of essential dental material for grinding the feed... * Encouraging the horse to clench and grind the bit at will as the bit can be easily pulled between the teeth by the rider or driver. This can make the horse a 'puller' which who not responsive to the bit. It is important that the bit rests in front of the first lower molars which ensures the horse will be much more responsive to the bit and therefore the rider. Injury will be prevented and the horse will be very comfortable if the corners of these molars are moderately rounded by the dentist Source: http://www.horsecalendar.com/Frame2CareerPage.html A similar point of view is expressed in this research article: So called bit seats ... are meant to create more comfort with the bit, but over aggressive reduction of these teeth can cause much discomfort The term, bit seat is a misnomer, because a properly fitted bit should not contact the premolars. Many horses experience discomfort or sensitivity to the teeth after a bit seat has been created, due to the large amount of sensitive dental tissue that was removed. ...If the tooth is aggressively reduced, the pulp chamber may be inadvertently entered, leading to bacterial infection and often death of the tooth. Another reason for increased sensitivity is thermal damage to the pulp inflicted by aggressive reduction. Thermal damage can cause a pulpitis, and if the damage is severe, death of the pulp and so death of the tooth Source: Dental Conditions Affecting the Mature Performance Horse (5-15 Years), 2006, Thomas J. Johnson, DVM and Colleen M. Porter, DVM. http://www.ivis.org/proceedings
Re: Bit seats in molars
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is nice to see some research and some first hand experiences. Not everything is always as bad as it can be made out to be. There is always a good reason as well that something has been invented for helping horses. I have watched many dentals and I have to say the tools in the wrong hands can be very bad, however in the right hands filing sharp edges down seems to be a standard floating including hooks and points on the first molars. Bit or not it would seem uncomfortable to me to have something that sharp in my mouth. I have never had or asked for a bit seat to be done or found the need for one, but that could be just because my vet takes off the sharp edges on the routine float. Bonnie Auburn, Washington cold and windy **Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300025 48) The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Bit Seats In Molars
This message is from: Vic Faeo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you everyone, and Jerry, for your answers. I think my horse is lucky and does not need them. I also really like the reining without reins philosophy - however, I'm not quite there yet! Vic - Original Message From: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:03:13 PM Subject: RE: Bit Seats In Molars This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] No Jerry, I disagree. Not all horses will need a bit seat; but I was really having some terrible issues w/ a mare I was training a few years ago, and when I addressed the issue by 'installing' a bit seat, things really improved. She had turned 4 and I was transitioning her from a bosal to a snaffle. I tried everything: mullen, straightbar, french link yadda yadda...I finally brought in the (veterinarian) trained dentist, and he found that she had a very 'tall' cheek teeth, and the bit was putting alot of pressure there. The ramp or rounding he crated alleviated this. she still is a sensitive mare, but she is much happier w/ her mouth now.. There might be some trainers that might be guilty of turning a horse dentist loose and putting bit seats in all the horses mouths in the barn as a 'routine' procedure, then charging the client (w/ thier markup included.) Maybe they are too lazy to evaluate a horses mouth or are in cahoots w/ the 'dentist'. But I don't think it s/b a routine procedure in any way. Karen Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords :: Madras, Oregon http://www.picturetrail.com/weegees From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Bit Seats In Molars Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:09:12 -0800 This message is from: jerry friz [EMAIL PROTECTED] No No ! Better get a new trainer ! You don't need a bit seat period!! Learn to rein with out the reins, using your seat, timing, legs, voice. Regards, Jerry Friz, Anderson,Ca. - Original Message - From: Vic Faeo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: Bit Seats In Molars This message is from: Vic Faeo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, everone. Do Fjords need bit seats filed into their first molars? I was just told about this by a horse trainer who specializes in reining and roping. But would a Fjord trail horse need it? My Fjord uses a Kimberwick cheek piece with an MB2 Myler mouth piece and he just direct-reins. For your security this Message has been checked for Viruses as a courtesy of Com-Pair Services! The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Bit Seats In Molars
This message is from: jerry friz [EMAIL PROTECTED] No No ! Better get a new trainer ! You don't need a bit seat period!! Learn to rein with out the reins, using your seat, timing, legs, voice. Regards, Jerry Friz, Anderson,Ca. - Original Message - From: Vic Faeo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: Bit Seats In Molars This message is from: Vic Faeo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, everone. Do Fjords need bit seats filed into their first molars? I was just told about this by a horse trainer who specializes in reining and roping. But would a Fjord trail horse need it? My Fjord uses a Kimberwick cheek piece with an MB2 Myler mouth piece and he just direct-reins. For your security this Message has been checked for Viruses as a courtesy of Com-Pair Services! The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Bit Seats In Molars
This message is from: Starfire Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] jerry friz wrote: No No ! Better get a new trainer ! You don't need a bit seat period!! Learn to rein with out the reins, using your seat, timing, legs, voice. Amen! I second that! Beth Subject: Bit Seats In Molars Hi, everone. Do Fjords need bit seats filed into their first molars? I was just told about this by a horse trainer who specializes in -- Starfire Farm Beth Beymer and Sandy North http://www.starfirefarm.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: Bit Seats In Molars
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] No Jerry, I disagree. Not all horses will need a bit seat; but I was really having some terrible issues w/ a mare I was training a few years ago, and when I addressed the issue by 'installing' a bit seat, things really improved. She had turned 4 and I was transitioning her from a bosal to a snaffle. I tried everything: mullen, straightbar, french link yadda yadda...I finally brought in the (veterinarian) trained dentist, and he found that she had a very 'tall' cheek teeth, and the bit was putting alot of pressure there. The ramp or rounding he crated alleviated this. she still is a sensitive mare, but she is much happier w/ her mouth now.. There might be some trainers that might be guilty of turning a horse dentist loose and putting bit seats in all the horses mouths in the barn as a 'routine' procedure, then charging the client (w/ thier markup included.) Maybe they are too lazy to evaluate a horses mouth or are in cahoots w/ the 'dentist'. But I don't think it s/b a routine procedure in any way. Karen Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords :: Madras, Oregon http://www.picturetrail.com/weegees From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Bit Seats In Molars Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:09:12 -0800 This message is from: jerry friz [EMAIL PROTECTED] No No ! Better get a new trainer ! You don't need a bit seat period!! Learn to rein with out the reins, using your seat, timing, legs, voice. Regards, Jerry Friz, Anderson,Ca. - Original Message - From: Vic Faeo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: Bit Seats In Molars This message is from: Vic Faeo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, everone. Do Fjords need bit seats filed into their first molars? I was just told about this by a horse trainer who specializes in reining and roping. But would a Fjord trail horse need it? My Fjord uses a Kimberwick cheek piece with an MB2 Myler mouth piece and he just direct-reins. For your security this Message has been checked for Viruses as a courtesy of Com-Pair Services! The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
