Re: Genetic Diversity breeding what works.
This message is from: Sara Faull [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have three Gjest/Solar sons on the farm -- two of them are for sale. -- BJORNROD - (Gjest x Tyra - Solar) ASTI (Gjest x Zona - Solar) -- BDF QUASAR (Gjest x Holly - Solar) Quasar is not for sale. The others are, and whoever gets either of them will have a remarkable horse. --- All three of these horses take your breath away with their substance and athletic ability. -- It's another one of those Magic Crosses -- A match that really works time and time again. -- The movement is pure Gjest. It's just so super to see a horse use his body like that with the forehand and the hindquarters both working to the ultimate -- * 5 yr. old Gjest son - Solar dam. -- Superb mover! As kind as they get. -- You will not believe the soft mouth on this horse or how beautifully immediately he halts. We had this gelding, Bjorn, on our farm last spring for harness training. As Carol said he is an elegant, responsive horse. You can also add farm work to his repertoire He plowed 2 acres as one of a three abreast. Although he is not drafty (quite the opposite, actually), he pulled his share of the weight without hesitation. Farm work is also great to teach a horse to stop and to stand quietly. As Carol stated he will make someone a remarkable horse. We also have on our farm right now another Gjest x Solar cross. She is a dainty, pretty mare with beautiful movement and a gorgeous head. Another testament to this cross. She has a beautiful colt sired by our stallion, Karimann. He is refined, but is well proportioned and has very nice movement. The colt is for sale. Sara Faull Mandala Farm Maine
Re: Genetic Diversity breeding what works.
This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- I think this discussion of genetic diversity is an extremely worthwhile topic, and I'm so pleased that so many have a serious opinion on the subject. One of our interns this summer is a wonderful young man from Holland. He's 24 years old, has a Masters Degree in American History, and has lived for a year each in Wisconsin and Hawaii. --- When he finished his Masters, he took the year of study in Hawaii, and because he'd done so well in his previous studies, he was given the opportunity to study anything he iked. -- So, he decided that since he'd always majored in history and languages he'd take some science courses, and while perusing the offerings, he happened on something called Equine Science and decided he'd try t. -- Well, he became so interested that when he returned to Holland, he found the best equine school and enrolled. His course is a four year course, but because of his past education, he was able to enroll in the third year. -- He enrolled in our Internship Program to get practical experience in running a professional stable, and also to gain more experience in the saddle. Each year with all our interns we try to balance their needs and desires with our needs. -- Andre is such a student, and is, in fact, absolutely brilliant, that we have asked him to translate significant parts of B. J. van Bon's book Van Vestlandhest tot Fjordenpaard. -- The first part he'll do is the part relating to the exceptional Fjord bloodline of Baronen. I say exceptional as Bob van Bon has always told me that this line is truly exceptional because it's not related to any of the other foundation lines. -- I'm not sure I ever fully understood this. Bob's english isn't flawless, and although we've had many interns over the years from Holland, none of them have been able to give me any more than a rough translation. -- I've even tried with some local Dutch people in our area, and there are a lot of them, but that was not successful either. -- One of the problems besides not being a student of both Dutch and English, is the special horse language terms used in the text. But, now having Andre with us until Ocotber, I have great hopes of finally getting this valuable text in English. ~~~ BREEDING WHAT WORKS -- Breeding Gjest to Solar daughters works so well, you can't begin to imagine it. Twenty-seven years ago, a wonderful, old Norwegian Fjord judge named David Klove, advised us by saying --- You MUST breed Gjest to Solar daughters. You will get the very best Fjordhorses. The man was right! -- We have three Gjest/Solar sons on the farm -- two of them are for sale. -- BJORNROD - (Gjest x Tyra - Solar) ASTI (Gjest x Zona - Solar) -- BDF QUASAR (Gjest x Holly - Solar) Quasar is not for sale. The others are, and whoever gets either of them will have a remarkable horse. --- All three of these horses take your breath away with their substance and athletic ability. -- It's another one of those Magic Crosses -- A match that really works time and time again. -- The movement is pure Gjest. It's just so super to see a horse use his body like that with the forehand and the hindquarters both working to the ultimate -- As one of our trainers, Kelly MacDonald, says . . . . I just love to see a Fjord that really looks like a Fjord, and these boys do. -- They have everything that the breed needs which is - size substance --- rhythm, regularity, reach --- work ethic --- willingness and ease of handling -- GENETIC DIVERSITY -- Yes, this is a subject that all Fjord breeders, big or small, should be informed about. -- Breeding related individuals results in weakness in the breed. It's a bad idea, particularly for horses. --- Particularly for horses expected to be strong, using, versatile, healthy, long-lived animals. Breeders should constantly strive to mate the best qualilty horses, and this does NOT necessarily mean going strictly by Evaluation results. -- A breeder should never breed without looking at as many offspring as is possible. And in today's world, it is possible. -- A breeder should never breed to a particular stallion without looking at the stallion's dam. -- A lot of people forget that. --- If the stallion is gorgeous, but his dam was ugly, it doesn't matter how wonderful the stud is. -- ALWAYS LOOK AT THE DAM! That's enough preaching for me today. Lots of work to do. If you're looking for a high quality, well trained Fjord, look us up this summer. We're having an extraordinary season with the best group of horses we've ever had. Take a look at this list and see if you don't agree that our offerings are THE BEST. * yearling stud colt sired by Gjest out of Myrstein daughter imported from
RE: Re: genetic diversity
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 03:46 PM 7/5/2006, you wrote: This message is from: Eike Schoen-Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen, the question is, how many of these mares produce a foal per average year? Now in Norway, Denmark and Germany there were between 300 and 400 foals registered last year (each). Mike May can tell you how many he registered last year. I registered 358 last year. Netherlands is a special case, I don´t now the numbers there. Maybe five hundred together in Belgium, Sweden, Finland, France, UK, a handful in Switzerland, some scattered foals in the Czech republic, Poland, New Zealand, Chile, Argentina, Spain, not much more. How many active mares does that make, really participating in a selective breeding programme? Maybe I underestimate the number of living mares, but so far I cannot see the foals being born from active mares. Many registries carry animals just because nobody declared them deceased. There is no way of making a true head count of the breeding population except by the product, the registered foals. I´d be happy to stand corrected! Eike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: genetic diversity
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 03:46 PM 7/5/2006, you wrote: This message is from: Eike Schoen-Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen, the question is, how many of these mares produce a foal per average year? Now in Norway, Denmark and Germany there were between 300 and 400 foals registered last year (each). Mike May can tell you how many he registered last year. I registered 358 horses in 2005. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Genetic diversity
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 06:18 PM 7/4/2006, you wrote: This message is from: Karen Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Eike: Can this be right? We have a worldwide gene pool of maybe 10,000 mares. That would mean that more than half are in North America as there are 5100 mares in the NFHR registry. I have no idea how many are in the Canadian registry. Which doesn't allow for a whole lot in all of the European registries and wherever else in the world Fjords are. Sorry Karen but there are only 2843 mares registered in the NFHR right now. There are 5064 total registered. These numbers are Registered Not necessarily Living horses. Just scratching my head over that number. Karen _ realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Genetic diversity
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Eike Schoen-Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...Agricultural geneticists tell me that you only need a population of about 1,000 females for a sound breeding programme. Eike There are two different forms of usage for the word population; 1) commonly used as indicating number of a category, (like, size of a town, or? 2) and then there is effective genome population, a geneticist would undoubtedly be referring to this measure, of a gene pool ...which is invariably smaller than an overall headcount population. The head count (populace) does not directly indicate a pure breed's genetic health. Population genetics is a study or measure of allele frequency distribution within a breed, which would vary in amount for many same-size (pop) different breeds.. Because, only a portion of any collective headcount actually breeds, and some portion will have a far greater measure of inbreeding than others---depending on their founder events, mode of mate selection, geographical distribution, marketing trends, breed society requirements, etc. Basically, any specific breed which mates within their breed perimeter, is UNDENIABLY inbred. So it's not IF, ...it's HOW MUCH? It is the enormity of inbreeding and how we might check that evolution that we focus on, because trying to avoid inbreeding by studying pedigrees is becoming more and more difficult, numerous common ancestors spanning many generations, very complex! A mating couple may initially appear not to be related but if three or four generations back they are very closely related, you have the potential for very heavy inbreeding. I understand that one ramification of inbreeding, that comes with intensity, is that the gender ratio mutates.. this would be an interesting statistical project. (I wasn't able to find that reference however,) ..it's possibly something to keep in mind as we research ..certainly it would be interesting to know, with or without the science. Summation: we can take an overall head count, count the amount of mares and sires, but they might only represent ten actual distinct bloodlines in their genome, considerably less than their head count population, so the head count in terms of genetic health is immaterial. Ruthie, nw mt US
RE: Re: genetic diversity
This message is from: Eike Schoen-Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen, the question is, how many of these mares produce a foal per average year? Now in Norway, Denmark and Germany there were between 300 and 400 foals registered last year (each). Mike May can tell you how many he registered last year. Netherlands is a special case, I don´t now the numbers there. Maybe five hundred together in Belgium, Sweden, Finland, France, UK, a handful in Switzerland, some scattered foals in the Czech republic, Poland, New Zealand, Chile, Argentina, Spain, not much more. How many active mares does that make, really participating in a selective breeding programme? Maybe I underestimate the number of living mares, but so far I cannot see the foals being born from active mares. Many registries carry animals just because nobody declared them deceased. There is no way of making a true head count of the breeding population except by the product, the registered foals. I´d be happy to stand corrected! Eike
Re: Genetic diversity discussion
This message is from: Olivia Farm, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello from Olivia Farm, I want to offer apology to Ruthie an anyone else that I may have offended with my last post - that was not my intention. I was only pointing out that people who tote themselves as stewards of the breed and are concerned with genetic diversity should do more research than just the related-ness of their own ponies. Personally, I believe that genetic diversity is just one issue of responsible breeding, along with breeding for good conformation, movement, temperament, fjord type, etc. I agree with Warren that breeding horses with undesirable characteristics just for the sake of diversity is a mistake. I am also sorry that my comment about under-used lines and stallions was taken to mean non-evaluated stock. I was actually thinking of a few specific stallions that have been evaluated either here or in Europe. Once again, I'm sorry that it looked like I had singled out individual stallions and breeding programs. As I said in my original post, my research and comments were limited to give an impression only, not to be taken as anything other than pointing out facts that are available for us all to see on the NFHR site. Thanks again for the good discussion, Solveig Watanabe Olivia Farm www.oliviafarm.com
RE: Genetic diversity
This message is from: Karen Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Eike: Can this be right? We have a worldwide gene pool of maybe 10,000 mares. That would mean that more than half are in North America as there are 5100 mares in the NFHR registry. I have no idea how many are in the Canadian registry. Which doesn't allow for a whole lot in all of the European registries and wherever else in the world Fjords are. Just scratching my head over that number. Karen _ realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au
Re: Genetic diversity?
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Warren, help me understand those @#% that you use instead of writing or spelling them? Just curious, Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: Genetic diversity?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 7/3/2006 11:21:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Warren, help me understand those @#% that you use instead of writing or spelling them? Jean, I believe it is just that the list is not compatible with some of the punctuation functions on Warren's computer. If you'll notice, the figures appear where quote marks and such should be. Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords 260 May Creek Rd Days Creek, OR 97429 541-825-3303 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
RE: Genetic diversity?
This message is from: Frederick J Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean, when someone sends a message formatted using Graphics, or HTML, the server has to translate the message into plain text. The results are the odd characters. NOW WARREN, just exactly who are you implying isn't there own man/woman on this list. Do the innuendos start on this list too.. Fred All Mail is scanned in AND out by Norton Anti-virus. Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, Washington 98396 Warren, help me understand those @#% that you use instead of writing or spelling them? Just curious, Jean Gayle
Re: Genetic diversity?
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for the info Fred, after I sent the question I was debating if it was a polite way to enter cuss words!!! Sorry, Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...My research is probably not 100% accurate... I want to encourage everyone who has posted about genetic diversity (and anyone else who is interested) to really take a look at their breeding programs in the big picture. ... Solveig - Accurate? I would say your research is inaccurate because if is INSUFFICIENT, but I'm glad to see the wheels turning anyhow and maybe it's a very small start on something big, certainly it's an acknowledgement of a problem anyhow. =))) But I don't agree with pointing fingers into other people's pastures and I'd advise against it. I know of animal lists that EXPRESSLY forbid bringing individual animal names, farms, or kennels, into list conversations about breed concerns, because someone's feelings might be hurt or all hell might bust loose! You see, it's one thing to talk about ideas, generalities, theories, projections, principles, etc, but quite another to make targeted individual recriminations. This tactic is inciteful, does nothing but muddy the waters of reason and detracts from the potential for resolving an important issue. Although I personally believe you made a good point about not passing over perfectly good stallions for breeding--this is why I too would hate to ever see the FHI recommendation for evaluated approved breeding stallions only. (we need MORE stallions, not less, I agree.) How many names are on a pedigree? Sixty-three... and each of those sixty three names represent sixty-three other pedigree names.. let's see.. that's three thousand, nine hundred and sixty-nine names represented on a ONE horse pedigree...!!! and you think you're going to sit down one afternoon and make some kind of a one horse assessment, disregarding the other three thousand, nine hundred and sixty-eight horses on that SAME pedigree...!!! I don't think so Solveig. There are many variable unreckoned factors in your assessment additionally.. if a stud sires only five colts, but they are all sold UNgelded, and another stud sires 15 but fourteen are gelded.. which of the two has contributed the most toward gene condensation? And what about the mares? (are they inconsequential? --same difference!). It is beyond the capability of any of us to make accurate gene conclusions. That's why we desperately need a DNA program that will chart a course for the future good of our rare breed, we can then measure the extent of inbreeding in particular lines and make recommendations for their cessation or promotion. It would be the best money ever spent toward guarding genetic purity; which is the bylaw mandated PURPOSE of the registry. It's NOT what we've done, it's what are we going to do in the future? Fjords, like toothpaste, cannot be put back.. but with DNA tracking we could chart a course of preservation through the oncoming years. I've been considerably encouraged since Steve made that recommendation for a world class cross-referencing DNA databank. We would love to see that initiated! I can't think of anything more worthwhile that could be done for the Fjord breed. Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Genetic Diversity - Another Issue.
This message is from: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie, I don't think Solveig pointed any fingers into other people's pastures nor did she make targeted individual recriminations or be inciteful. She was insightful though and just presented some information she collected about stallions in her area and encouraged others to possibly reach beyond the normally used stallions in their area, if they are closely related. Since she included her own stallion, she was certainly not pointing fingers. You are the one being inciteful and attacking and that should be cautious of what you write in reply to others' well thought out emails.. But I don't agree with pointing fingers into other people's pastures and I'd advise against it. I know of animal lists that EXPRESSLY forbid bringing individual animal names, farms, or kennels, into list conversations about breed concerns, because someone's feelings might be hurt or all hell might bust loose! You see, it's one thing to talk about ideas, generalities, theories, projections, principles, etc, but quite another to make targeted individual recriminations. This tactic is inciteful, does nothing but muddy the waters of reason and detracts from the potential for resolving an important issue. while that could be done for the Fjord breed. Ruthie, nw mt -- Genie Dethloff Ann Arbor, Michigan
