RE: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger "Be still" is something that I am really working on right now. Yes, "head down" was one of the first things I worked on, and he still offers that as a default behavior, which is good. --- On Wed, 11/28/12, Gail Russell wrote: From: Gail Russell Subject: RE: Re: Introduction To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 4:27 PM This message is from: Gail Russell You need to train an opposite "action" as he has gotten the idea that movement is being rewarded. It is tricky to clicker train foot stuff because they get too enthusiastic. I would start rewarding for keeping all "four on the floor." Under various circumstances. Then, train the picking up of the foot and make sure to put it under stimulus control. I have never really gotten down how to have really good stimulus control. Kathy Sdao has a DVD or two on the subject. One place to look at is Clean Run, which is a dog agility training site. They have lots of DVD's on various details of training. All of it is positive reinforcement training. Not because they have a "thing" for it, but because it is the only thing that works to train winning agility dogs. Overall, it sounds like you need more of the training detail. I sympathize. I have had some mishaps training behaviors involving feet. However, these things are fixable. It does sound like you need to do a lot of training of quiet behaviors. Have you worked on "head down?" Gail Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I don't think I can read animals' minds, and I sure don't claim to be an expert on horses, but they are not black boxes anymore than other people are. I think that people are more so than animals, being more complex. Some emotions are obvious, some are subtle, but it can be very useful if you know what the emotion is. I think we can safely assume that "fear" is at the top of a horses' strong emotions. That's not really psychoanalysis, lol; it's just common sense, as fellow mammals. I don't know why Bam-Bam kicked me when I turned my attention to somebody else: jealousy, anger, pawing due to frustration, a simple reflex? I don't know why he moves his foot when I touch it--irritation, an attempt at compliance, a simple reflex? But I do know fear when I see it, even in an animal that I am not very familiar with. However, I understand why you are saying that, and I do try not to read too much into anything. I know people in general assume way too many things about why animals are doing what they do. I try to neither anthropomorphize, nor dismiss what any child could tell a scientist about what an animal is feeling. Emotions are universal, coming from a very primitive part of the brain. A lot of time, the exact emotion is somewhat irrelevant; however, if you are doing something counter to a very strong emotion, it helps to realize that, and take it into account. Especially something as basic (and potentially dangerous) as fear in an animal like a horse. Bam-Bam scared was not something that I had experienced before, and it was not fun for either of us. Yes, I have all of Alexandra's stuff, and follow her list. She was nice enough to reply personally to me when I first got the horses and e-mailed her for advice. Very good information; I think that she really uses CT to its potential with horses. A lot of it is just beyond me; so subtle; but it's very beautiful. I'm not going to just simulate drunkenness, I plan to actually get falling-down drunk and ride, so as to expose the horses to every likely situation that they may encounter. Not tonight, however; it's pretty cold, and I don't want to be incapacitated out there, if worse comes to worst. Luckily, I live in Wisconsin, a great state where drunk driving is merely frowned upon, and all those pesky laws about the operation of a vehicle while under the influence have the word "motor", in there somewhere, I think. Kidding! Seriously, I am clumsy, so falling down by them on purpose would probably be a good idea. I was watching Rick Gore acting silly and falling all over and running up waving his arms and going under them and sticking his head between their back legs--I'm sure that's all good. I am going to try to expose them to everything I can in a controlled way, so they will be ready when things are not as controlled. I can't really travel to any conferences about CT. I have young dogs and cats at home who need me. I don't even travel for work conferences anymore. In my experience, conferences are always way more trouble than they are worth, in any case. The learning/dollars is pretty low compared to just reading and talking like this. Lots of good ideas so far here. --- On Wed, 11/28/12, Gail Russell wrote: From: Gail Russell Subject: RE: Re: Introduction To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 4:37 PM This message is from: Gail Russell Be careful about all the pschoanalysis of why Bam Bam was unable to stand for the farrier. BF Skinner always cautioned that the organism (BAM BAM) should be treated as a "black box." You have no idea of his motivations or what else is going on in his head. It is enough to just accept the fact that he does not know how to deal with this situation, and figure out how to prepare him for picking up his feet in a variety of situations, including with a farrier who approaches in any old manner. I know horse trainers who pretend to be falling down drunks trying to mount their horses.get the horse used to anythingand the truth is that many many horses will eventually have to deal with a falling down drunk person :). I encourage you to buy Alexandra Kurland's books and join her "click that teaches" list. She is a trained behavioral scientist, as are some of the people on her list. Also, consider going to the Clicker Expo or to the Wicked Minds conference in January at Texas State University. GAil ? When he started with Odi, he didn't introduce himself or go slowly, just had me hold him and went at his feet.? So after that, I got Bam-Bam, and the farrier couldn't even get near him, he went wild when the farrier?started?got close to us.? He didn't rear, but he was jumping all?around and it was hard for me to hold onto.? The farrier was like, OK, no way, and
RE: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Gail Russell Be careful about all the pschoanalysis of why Bam Bam was unable to stand for the farrier. BF Skinner always cautioned that the organism (BAM BAM) should be treated as a "black box." You have no idea of his motivations or what else is going on in his head. It is enough to just accept the fact that he does not know how to deal with this situation, and figure out how to prepare him for picking up his feet in a variety of situations, including with a farrier who approaches in any old manner. I know horse trainers who pretend to be falling down drunks trying to mount their horses.get the horse used to anythingand the truth is that many many horses will eventually have to deal with a falling down drunk person :). I encourage you to buy Alexandra Kurland's books and join her "click that teaches" list. She is a trained behavioral scientist, as are some of the people on her list. Also, consider going to the Clicker Expo or to the Wicked Minds conference in January at Texas State University. GAil ? When he started with Odi, he didn't introduce himself or go slowly, just had me hold him and went at his feet.? So after that, I got Bam-Bam, and the farrier couldn't even get near him, he went wild when the farrier?started?got close to us.? He didn't rear, but he was jumping all?around and it was hard for me to hold onto.? The farrier was like, OK, no way, and he turned around and left.? The Bam-Bam was fine.??Bam-Bam just didn't want that bad guy carrying torture-implements (for all he knew) getting close to him. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Gail Russell You need to train an opposite "action" as he has gotten the idea that movement is being rewarded. It is tricky to clicker train foot stuff because they get too enthusiastic. I would start rewarding for keeping all "four on the floor." Under various circumstances. Then, train the picking up of the foot and make sure to put it under stimulus control. I have never really gotten down how to have really good stimulus control. Kathy Sdao has a DVD or two on the subject. One place to look at is Clean Run, which is a dog agility training site. They have lots of DVD's on various details of training. All of it is positive reinforcement training. Not because they have a "thing" for it, but because it is the only thing that works to train winning agility dogs. Overall, it sounds like you need more of the training detail. I sympathize. I have had some mishaps training behaviors involving feet. However, these things are fixable. It does sound like you need to do a lot of training of quiet behaviors. Have you worked on "head down?" Gail Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
