Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kathy I really appreciate your expertise in this area. I wonder also if the idea that there is another problem behind the anemia might also have been caused by the anemia or compensating for the anemia?Jean Gayle Author "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 46-49 Send $20 to: PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:31 am Subject: Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses? > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >In talking to Margaret (the breeder) I found out that one of > her vets had > a theory about the seemingly low counts in otherwise perfectly fine > horses, > which was that because they are *so* calm they store cells in their > spleen(?) > and so test lower. > The splenic storage of RBCs is part of the proverbial second wind of a racehorse. In relation to other mammals the horse has a very large spleen and does routinely store not only red cells but white cells and platelets. Under stress, psychological or physical, the spleen "dumps" these cells into the circulation. It is very dramatic in a human and even more so in a horse. Anemia in any mammal is hard to judge and as other listers have noted, is much more frequently a sign of something else rather than a disease itself. If a true anemia develops over a long period of time, you generally do not notice a change in activity because there are other compensating mechanisms that kick in. Also remember, red count and hematocrit normal values are at best only a guidline and should be established for all breeds, sexes, ages and localities independently. This is rarely done by human labs and even less frequently by vet labs so most use published data that may be old, gathered by someone outside their geographical area or for other breeds. Normal is also a statistical, not a biological term. It just means that 95% of the animals tested at a particular time and place fell within the stated range. Sorry for long post - this is one of the areas I teach (Hematology - human and other vertebrate and evaluation of clinical lab data ) and it is confusing to practitioners and lay people alike. This is why you need your veterinarian to sort out all the possibilities and signs and symptoms. Kathy
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: Ardeth Obenauf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Purina has a fairly new product out that is meant for horses that are mostly on forage and little grain. It is called Nature's Essentials. It has a good balance of vitamins and minerals(including selenium), and I use it to supplement a diet of crimped oats and pasture. So far it seems to be working well for the fjords, giving them what they need without a lot of extra calories. There are two varieties; mare and maintenance and performance. AO
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> That brings to mind that feeding horses large quantities of garlic can cause anemia. Dr. Beth Valentine mentioned this on the Virtual vet site when I did a search: http://www.ruralheritage.com/messageboard/virtualvet/1361-1.htm "If you feed enough garlic to a horse you can cause anemia due to red cell damage. I don't have an exact number of how much is too much, but for sure if you think garlic has beneficial effects on your horses, do not feed much." Here is more from Dr. Beth Valentine, DVM, PhD re: Anemia: "In my book (literally, now!) a horse is anemic if the packed cell volume (PCV, also called the hematocrit) is less than 31% or if the Red Blood Count (RBC) is less than 6.3 million per microliter. Mild anemia in horses most often reflects some other underlying problem, called anemia of chronic disease. When the underlying condition is treated, the anemia resolves on its own. So, yes, some EPSM horses have tested as slightly anemic. A horse would have to be more severely anemic than slightly for it to affect performance or attitude, but unfortunately sometimes the only thing found on testing is anemia, and so it gets diagnosed as the cause of the problems and treated for. In my experience, products such as Red Cell designed to "build the blood" are only useful in horses with true anemia, which most often occurs due to blood loss or destruction or, much less often, to iron deficiency. Anemia in draft horses is no different from anemia in light horses - in most horses with signs like yours a slight anemia only reflects some other process going on - slight anemia will not cause the lethargy you are seeing. And, a draft horse would have to lose an awful lot of blood quickly before that would cause anemia. I suspect there is another problem here. I would look hard at her muscle enzymes AST (sometimes known as SGOT) and CK (sometimes known as CPK). Unexplained lethargy in a draft horse, with or without anemia, makes me very suspicious of EPSM. My high normal for AST in horses is about 420, and for CK is 350. But, I have worked with plenty of EPSM drafts that had normal blood levels of these enzymes, even when blood was taken after exercise - only muscle biopsy allowed us to make a definitive diagnosis in these horses. Since many veterinarians are not aware of this problem, or are not aware of the subtle signs and blood changes it can cause in a draft, you might want to look at the information on it in the Contents of this site. Diet change to one that is high in fat and low in starches and sugars is often very successful at controlling problems due to EPSM" BTW Dr. Valentine has written a great book: DRAFT HORSES, an Owner's Manual" (Co-authored with Michael J. Wildenstein, CJF) Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska 50 degrees. >Could it possibly be an ingredient in his past diet..? Nutrient imbalances >can lead to anemia, not shortages, but surpluses. For example, I read this >item about leaves.. "Actually, *fresh* red maple leaves are harmless. The >wilted leaves however... cause a hemolytic anemia"
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Now another of our driving school horses has come up with anemia. -- BDF Quasar, a 5 yr. old gelding, ...> > I read up on anemia in horses and it's considered fairly rare, and is not due to a lack of iron; therefore, blood building supplements like Red Cell are not recommended anymore -- at least according to what I read on the > Internet. They mentioned Folic Acid depletion, and lack of enough > elenium. -- Carol -- SORRY to hear about Quasar's difficulties (can't believe he's 5 yrs already, seems like "we" just picked out his name) Usually when people hear the word "anemia" they are inclined to think of what's nutritionally lacking, this could be misleading.. anemia is more of a clinical sign than a diagnosis and one of the two most common causes of anemia is diet... and perhaps not necessarily a lack! Could it possibly be an ingredient in his past diet..? Nutrient imbalances can lead to anemia, not shortages, but surpluses. For example, I read this item about leaves.. "Actually, *fresh* red maple leaves are harmless. The wilted leaves however... cause a hemolytic anemia" http://www.horse-country.com/vet/newell3.html I also read something about large quantities of Broccoli causing anemia... of course you haven't done that, but I mention it as an example of a nutritional imbalance. I know you've mentioned before that you feed the residual product of the sugar beet and while I KNOW it is highly acclaimed (see link below) I also can't help but wonder if perhaps there might be the odd horse that doesn't assimilate it well, perhaps because of its fibrous quality? (I have seen a few disparaging references in pet food sites) Point being, I would try changing the existing diet and opt for simple good quality natural grass (an old remedy is sometimes the best remedy =)) Best of luck to Quasar, Ruthie, nw mt all you ever wanted to know about beet pulp http://www.horsequest.com/journal/health/beetp.htm
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I don't use the salt blocks with selenium because two of my Fjords just love the salt and I feel they would get too much selenium. I use just a TM salt block and also like to put a white plain salt block out there also. I give a vitamin mineral supplement which has Selenium in it. Jean in dreary Fairbanks, Alaska. >Now my concern is that Gunnar may be getting too much Selenium with that big >salt block.
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol I just mentioned in my last post that my warmblood Charley was found to be very anemic last month. This is his second bout. I also mentioned that he does not eat salt, However his feed has selenium in it and he gets three large scoops twice a day. I put him back on Lixitinic, Biohoof, Vitamins, Vit C, Cough free, Alegra senior horse, and the sand blast doses. He was 18 when the first diagnosis of anemic came in. Now at 25 I was not too surprised. He was not tolerating the eastern Wa grass hay and had watery poop and a sore behind. So he is back on alfalfa three times a day which has cleared up the soft stools. In a month I will have him tested again. Now my concern is that Gunnar may be getting too much Selenium with that big salt block. Jean Gayle. PS Are there similar blood lines with you anemic ones? Author "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 46-49 Send $20 to: PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol, Fjords and drafts usually show lower PCV's than a lot of other breeds. but 25 IS low..my Bjarne, when he had the shoulder infection and surgery (staph infection) had a long course of antibiotics..which dropped his red cell count. So something like that could be happening. Another thing to check out is EPSM, for the stiffness, lameness, etc. check out Dr. Beth Valentine's articles on the Rural Heritage Website, EPSM is quite common in draft breeds, and found in many other breeds as well..including Fjords. EquinePolySaccharideMyopathy. EPSM is a muscle disease in which carbohydrates are not properly utilizd, and the diet change adding oil and reducing the grains and other carbohydraes is necessary. from Dr. Valentines article: http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/epsm.htm "The muscle disease Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (EPSM) has been confirmed or suspected in over 100 draft horses, includin Belgians, Percherons, Clydesdales, Shires, Haflinger, Norwegian Fjord, Irish Draught, Friesian, draft crosses, and a draft mule. This newly-recognized disease, under research at the College of Veterinary Medicine at Oregon State University, has likely been around for hundreds of years. It has been identified in many breeds of horse, but appears to be particularly common, severe, and difficult to detect in the draft breeds." Other articles can be found at: http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/index.htm There is also a very good discussion forum: http://www.ruralheritage.com/messageboard/virtualvet/index1.htm Cehck out the archives. Jean in cold and rainy Fairbanks, Alaska, no snow yet... and I went >to back him out of the straight stall, and he was reluctant to back up. >When I got him out I noticed he was very stocked up in all four legs. -- >We gave him a bute, hosed him with cold water, walked him, and the swelling >went down, and he was moving much better. > >Then, this Friday morning when we went to bring him in from the field, he >was walking like an old arthritic horse. He seemed off on the left >ront. -- I got the vet to come out, and he examined him thoroughly >including nerve blocks and x-rays, and a blood test. -- The nerve blocks >showed nothing. The x-rays were clean, but the bloodtest came back with the >PCVs at 24 when the norm is 30 - 45 (or close to those numbers -- I can't >remember exactly).
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yes, that is the case, especially with the draft breeds. a Thoroughbred, OTOH will often be in the 40's. Maybe you should take blood after lunging them briefly? Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, cold and dreary, winter coming..34 degrees! >In talking to Margaret (the breeder) I found out that one of her vets had >a theory about the seemingly low counts in otherwise perfectly fine horses, >which was that because they are *so* calm they store cells in their spleen(?) >and so test lower. >In the case of horses actually showing signs of being anemic, though, I >don't know. Even when Heidi tested at 24 she looked and acted absolutely fine.
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A while back I went through some "anemia" with Heidi, where her count was in the low 20's (mid to upper 30's are the norm here because of the elevation), and when I had Torden tested he also tested low, upper 20's to very low 30's. The big difference with my case, though, was that my guys never ever looked or acted the least bit anemic. Heidi of course has had her problems, but none that could be tied to anemia. Torden has always been healthy (knock on wood). I did start using Red Cell and now, about 1 1/2 years later, I had all three Fjords tested. Torden came back at 36.3, Heidi is 33.8, and Brecken is 32.7 (he's only been here a week, we expect his count to go up as he adjusts). In talking to Margaret (the breeder) I found out that one of her vets had a theory about the seemingly low counts in otherwise perfectly fine horses, which was that because they are *so* calm they store cells in their spleen(?) and so test lower. In the case of horses actually showing signs of being anemic, though, I don't know. Even when Heidi tested at 24 she looked and acted absolutely fine. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] We don't have any anemia, but we feed a supplement that is made especially for our area (the right amount of selenium added). We were told if provided in a salt lick, they may not get enough of it. One of our horses LOVES the salt lick and the other doesn't. Suzan The world is so empty if one thinks only of mountains, rivers and cities; but to know someone here and there who thinks and feels with us, and though distant, is close to us in spirit --- this makes the earth for us an inhabited garden. â Johann von Goethe
Re: Anemia in Fjordhorses?
This message is from: "Carol Riviore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - In the middle of the summer, one of our driving school horses, a 7 yr. old mare named Saakje, started acting odd -- In her case it was mostly low energy. We had the vet out and he could find nothing wrong, but took a blood sample, and lo and behold, Saakje was anemic. -- I don't remember what the blood count was. -- Well, we gave her a couple of weeks off work, and upped her feed, adding supplements, and she came out of it fine. Now another of our driving school horses has come up with anemia. -- BDF Quasar, a 5 yr. old gelding, started off the season in fine form, but around mid August, he was just a little bit dull. Wasn't going with his usual enthusiasm and huge stride. -- Frankly, I just thought it was boredom with being a school horse. -- At the end of the season, Sept. 9th, Quasar was off work for about 2 1/2 weeks. Then last Friday, I took him out driving. It was hot and he has a good start on his winter coat, and when he wasn't very energetic, I put it down to those conditions. -- Then on Saturday, he was in the barn, (after being out all night) and I went to back him out of the straight stall, and he was reluctant to back up. When I got him out I noticed he was very stocked up in all four legs. -- We gave him a bute, hosed him with cold water, walked him, and the swelling went down, and he was moving much better. Then, this Friday morning when we went to bring him in from the field, he was walking like an old arthritic horse. He seemed off on the left ront. -- I got the vet to come out, and he examined him thoroughly including nerve blocks and x-rays, and a blood test. -- The nerve blocks showed nothing. The x-rays were clean, but the bloodtest came back with the PCVs at 24 when the norm is 30 - 45 (or close to those numbers -- I can't remember exactly). I read up on anemia in horses and it's considered fairly rare, and is not due to a lack of iron; therefore, blood building supplements like Red Cell are not recommended anymore -- at least according to what I read on the Internet. They mentioned Folic Acid depletion, and lack of enough elenium. -- I know the whole east coast including Nova Scotia is selenium deficient. We provide salt licks, of course, but it's questionable if they eat enough of it to get the right amount of selenium. -- Also, we don't feed much grain -- very little of it. So, the horses don't get the nutrients programed into the complete feeds. -- And, even if we did feed more grain, we'd never be able to feed Fjords the amounts recommended by the feed companies. -- It just wouldn't work for Fjords. As to all our other horses, we assume they're getting everything they need, but we don't know for sure. -- We have four horses for the Beginner Driving Vacations, and those four work very hard four to five days a week. One of them, BDF Toril, is 21, and she has more energy than some of the younger horses. -- The other adult horses worked fairly hard during the summer as they were all in full training six days a week. None of those showed any lack of energy. Our assistant manager, Kelly MacDonald, suggested I write the List and see if anyone has had similar experiences. I'm wondering particularly about horses that are in a serious work program. -- Any help anyone could offer would be appreciated by us. Carol Rivoire http://www.beaverdamfarm.com Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet, Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 Tel:(902) 386-2304 Fax:(902) 386-2149 Carole Rivoire, author of THE FJORDHORSE HANDBOOK, only book in English on the Fjord breed, available from Beaver Dam Farm, $36.95 US includes P&H http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/book.htm
