Re: Health Question
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here are the HCT values for three of my Fjords in April 1991 and 1992. These were taken as "baseline" values for future reference. Stella, 1977 mare 34.0, 34.2 Bjarne, 1975 gelding 34.2, 38.6 Bjorken, 1987 gelding 35.0, 35.8 Bjarne, in winter 1989 had a severe Staph infection in his shoulder which required surgery His blood count was low at this time, with a very high white cell count. HCT went like this: 25, 28,32,28,24 21*,25, with readings taken every 3 to 4 days, then weekly. When it dropped to 21 The vet took him off the SMZ-TMP Antibiotic which was destroying red cells and making him anemic. As you can see, his reading was up with the others in 1991. Bjorken had an apparent reaction to the vaccine shots in May, 2000, with a fever of 104.5 for 3 days. Blood tests showed HCT o 28.4% during this time. Kathleen, I can send a copy of the complete readouts of these blood tests if you are interested. I didn't want to take up space on the list to copy the whole works. Hydration or dehydration can affect the HCT: A mildy dehydrated horse will have a higher HCT. Excitement or exercise can also raise the HCT. I often wonder what the HCT of a sleeping Fjord would be, if you could get it without waking him up! Jeanin Fairbanks, Alaska, frost expected tonight! ><< I forgot to add - someone on this list may have access to the reference >ranges >for hematology and chemistry values specific to the Fjord horse. Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Health Question
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] << I forgot to add - someone on this list may have access to the reference ranges for hematology and chemistry values specific to the Fjord horse. Our reference ranges were established using mainly quarter horse and TB. I do know that they are different for Arabians and I would guess that the draft breeds will be even more different. Just from observations of other mammals I would guess that the hemoglobin/hematocrit may differ significantly from the hotter breeds. ( should be lower) while the MCV and MCHC should be similar. If this horse evolved at high altitudes the MCV in theory will be lower. If these values are not available, I would be willing to coordinate a project to help get them determined and published. Ditto chemistry values. I have one Fjord and it takes at least one hundred samples to establish a reliable start to a data base. The samples would also have to represent various age groups and stallions/geldings and mares as well as different geographic regions ( particularly altitude when looking at hematology values). I can provide sample containers and mailing containers and probably shipping to get samples here. It would be best to involve and include your own veterniarians and and their instruments in such a study and do an even more extensive comparison-that way we could see also how much variation there was in the methods being used. Also ultimately it is the veterinarian who uses the clinical data to make a diagnosis and it is done in conjunction with signs and symptoms and history. Laboratory data should NEVER be used as the sole diagnositc criterion. ( I will get off my soap box - I teach my own students, Pharmacists and Physician assistants and the concept that is the hardest to convey is that a lab test is only used to assist in a diagnosis - it does not make it ). Any intererst? >> I of course would be very interested in participating, being at 8,400' mine are probably some of the highest Fjords in the country. As for Heidi and Torden's most recent test results, I don't have copies of the data but the vet did leave this info on my machine: Heidi HCT - 28.3% Albumin - 2.13 Torden HCT - 31.5% Albumin - 2.3 Up here in the mountains the vets like to see the horses at 36 - 38% (the usual range is 32 - 52%?), and the range they're using for the albumin is 2.6 - 3.8. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO
Re: Health Question
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] << 'THE PRIDE PROJECT: How to Speak CBC in One Easy Lesson" http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/cbc.shtml Other articles by Susan Garlinghouse: http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/index.shtml As far as reference ranges for Fjord horses, I have records of baseline blood analysis done on my fjords some years ago which I can dig up for you. My vet thought they had low hematocrits. >> Thank you for those links, and I would love it if you could find those records! Hopefully they will shed some light on what is going on with my two. Well, at least help to explain the test results. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO
Re: Health Question
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Before you get too exited about the blood tests, make sure that they are > performed with an instrument and laboratory using methods, instruments and > reference ranges that are specifically designed or adjusted for animals and not > humans. AND htat there is an adequate reference range established for horses > and in particular Fjords. My specialty is Laboratory medicine including > hematology and I have owned and managed veterinary testing labs. The albumin > test most frequently used clinically uses a dye called bromcresyl purple for > albumin. It works for humans but underestimates animal albumins except for > cows. The lab should be using bromcresyl green which works better. Same for > determining anemia. There is a tremendous variation among the different > mammals on size , shape and hemoglobin concentration of their red cells. While > most human hematology analyzers work well with humans and dogs, without major > modifications results for cats and horses are questionable and camelids are > undoable. Goats and sheep do not register either. Most of these groups, with > the exception of dogs appear anemic if human criteria are used. Thats why you > need to use a lab that has established refgerence ranges for different animals > and even different breeds. The veterinary clinic I use has it's own lab and they process all of the bloodwork. Heidi has been tested there three times, and by another place (IDEXX), twice. She's tested low each time except for once, by IDEXX. I personally believe it was a fluke when she tested normal (low-normal, but in the "safe" range), as two weeks later she tested back where she normally is. The problem is the vets here don't do many Fjords, I believe I'm only their second client that has them. So, if they are trying to judge them on other breeds when the Fjords are unique maybe my two are fine as far as that goes, but it still doesn't help explain what is going on with Heidi. Also, as we are high up in the mountains (at 8,400', to be exact), the vets like to see the horses with higher levels, and with my two being "anemic" (on their scale) I can't help but be concerned...even if Torden hasn't shown any signs whatsoever that anything is wrong. He's just typical four-year-old. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO
Re: Health Question
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here is an interesting articvle by Susan Garlinghouse, MS and Barny Fleming, DVM which may help explain what some of the blood results mean : 'THE PRIDE PROJECT: How to Speak CBC in One Easy Lesson" http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/cbc.shtml Other articles by Susan Garlinghouse: http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/index.shtml As far as reference ranges for Fjord horses, I have records of baseline blood analysis done on my fjords some years ago which I can dig up for you. My vet thought they had low hematocrits. Jean in sunny, (but actually not that warm) Fairbanks, Alaska, with fall on it's way. >This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >I forgot to add - someone on this list may have access to the reference ranges >for hematology and chemistry values specific to the Fjord horse. Our reference >ranges were established using mainly quarter horse and TB. Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Health Question
This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I forgot to add - someone on this list may have access to the reference ranges for hematology and chemistry values specific to the Fjord horse. Our reference ranges were established using mainly quarter horse and TB. I do know that they are different for Arabians and I would guess that the draft breeds will be even more different. Just from observations of other mammals I would guess that the hemoglobin/hematocrit may differ significantly from the hotter breeds. ( should be lower) while the MCV and MCHC should be similar. If this horse evolved at high altitudes the MCV in theory will be lower. If these values are not available, I would be willing to coordinate a project to help get them determined and published. Ditto chemistry values. I have one Fjord and it takes at least one hundred samples to establish a reliable start to a data base. The samples would also have to represent various age groups and stallions/geldings and mares as well as different geographic regions ( particularly altitude when looking at hematology values). I can provide sample containers and mailing containers and probably shipping to get samples here. It would be best to involve and include your own veterniarians and and their instruments in such a study and do an even more extensive comparison-that way we could see also how much variation there was in the methods being used. Also ultimately it is the veterinarian who uses the clinical data to make a diagnosis and it is done in conjunction with signs and symptoms and history. Laboratory data should NEVER be used as the sole diagnositc criterion. ( I will get off my soap box - I teach my own students, Pharmacists and Physician assistants and the concept that is the hardest to convey is that a lab test is only used to assist in a diagnosis - it does not make it ). Any intererst? Kathleen Spiegel Ph.D. Program Director Clinical Laboratory Science Program Idaho State University Pocatello, Idaho [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Health Question
This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Before you get too exited about the blood tests, make sure that they are > performed with an instrument and laboratory using methods, instruments and > reference ranges that are specifically designed or adjusted for animals and > not > humans. AND htat there is an adequate reference range established for horses > and in particular Fjords. My specialty is Laboratory medicine including > hematology and I have owned and managed veterinary testing labs. The albumin > test most frequently used clinically uses a dye called bromcresyl purple for > albumin. It works for humans but underestimates animal albumins except for > cows. The lab should be using bromcresyl green which works better. Same for > determining anemia. There is a tremendous variation among the different > mammals on size , shape and hemoglobin concentration of their red cells. > While > most human hematology analyzers work well with humans and dogs, without major > modifications results for cats and horses are questionable and camelids are > undoable. Goats and sheep do not register either. Most of these groups, with > the exception of dogs appear anemic if human criteria are used. Thats why you > need to use a lab that has established refgerence ranges for different animals > and even different breeds. Kathy
