Re: very sore front feet
This message is from: "carl nielsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Jean--I used LaminaSaver for my mare who foundered almost 3 years ago. the first time I ordered it form the company Figuerola but then I found it to be cheaper through United Vet Equine. www.unintedvetequine.com Randi in S.W.Wis. - Original Message - From: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:05 PM Subject: Re: very sore front feet > This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Fred where did you get that lamina saver? Jean Gayle > > > > > > Author > 'The Colonel's Daughter" > Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 > Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press > 7403 Blaine Rd > Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: Very sore front feet
This message is from: Amy Goodloe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:05 AM -0400 6/15/05, Sam & Sue Banks wrote: According to what I have read, the bute will cause stomach ulcers more commonly at higher doses and the longer it sits in the stomach. The best way to use bute is to give it to the horse on an empty stomach (with a small amount of grain is OK, which we aren't going to do with our possible laminitic horse) and wait 1 hour before feeding any hay. Hay must stay in the stomach longer to digest, and the bute will bind with the hay and therefore sit in the stomach longer, causing the ulcers. This is interesting. Do you remember where you read this, so I can follow up on it? I have a couple of horses that need bute periodically to manage soundness problems and I've been giving it to them just before feeding them their evening hay, on the theory that having food in the stomach will buffer the bute, just as it does for a human who wants to take an Advil. I can't take Advil on an empty stomach any more after the damage caused by doing so for many years. I have to eat a full meal about thirty minutes after taking the Advil if I want to do so without additional suffering! I know that bute is not the same drug as ibuprofen, but it seems like the recommendation for most human drugs that cause stomach upset is to take them on a full stomach. Maybe a horse's stomach is just too different to make the comparison? My guess is that horses probably suffer from gastric irritation problems long before things get bad enough for them to develop an ulcer. But I suppose it would be hard to measure something like heartburn in a horse, b/c you can't see it like you can see an ulcer. And so far it's too hard (or too expensive) to treat, although I would've thought that having food in the stomach would be a good idea. But maybe not! --Amy G.
Re: Very sore front feet
This message is from: "Sam & Sue Banks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: "Sam & Sue Banks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Subject: Re: very sore front feet Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:33 AM I agree with the others, I would consider this a possible early case of laminitis and treat it as such. It won't hurt the horse if it is brusing or other things to do the following. 1) Absolutely take the horse off ALL grass immediately. It should be put into a dry lot and fed only hay. Grass and grains are high in the type of carbohydrate that encourages laminitis. Some hays are high in this type of carbohydrate, but generally most hays are better than grass. There is a web site called something like www.safegrass.org that has more information. 2) Anti-inflammatories are necessary, despite their risk. In general, it is now recommended that 1 gram of bute twice a day is sufficient, rather than the old amount of 2 grams twice a day. According to what I have read, the bute will cause stomach ulcers more commonly at higher doses and the longer it sits in the stomach. The best way to use bute is to give it to the horse on an empty stomach (with a small amount of grain is OK, which we aren't going to do with our possible laminitic horse) and wait 1 hour before feeding any hay. Hay must stay in the stomach longer to digest, and the bute will bind with the hay and therefore sit in the stomach longer, causing the ulcers. I use bute paste, more expensive, but easy to give without grain. 3) As others have mentioned, sometimes the rotation of the bone inside the hoof will take days, weeks, months to occur. It can be a help to use styrofoam, or some other support under the sole of the foot - check with your vet and farrier to determine what might be needed. There are lots of web sites with information about laminitis and related subjects such as the safegrass, and the relation of hormone imbalance to increase laminitis, and Equus magazine has had several good articles over the past few years on the subjects. I find that bute is a stronger anti-inflammatory than the Figuerola Labs InflammaSaver, and you need to get the swelling out of the lamina fast to minimize the rotation. I have used both in mild acute laminitis case with 2 of my ponies (a Morgan and a Fjord) over the years, and both of them were very mild cases that the initial vet visit did not diagnose with laminitis. I switch to InflammaSaver if needed after the horse trots sound, for me, that has been in about 2-3 weeks. You can use the LaminaSaver for both the acute phase and for maintainance, which I do. I also restrict grass intake for this horse with a grazing muzzle, rather than risk another occurance. Sue Banks, Mattaponi, VA
Re: Very Sore front feet
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "Jill E. Fishinger CPA P.C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have been paying very close attention to this discussion on founder. Our > fjords are about 1 year old and getting quite chubby. While they are > growing is founder possible or likely? Should they be rationed or are they > too young? Many years ago, my first equine, a young donkey, foundered. The vet shook her head, and said that she wouldn't have believed that it was possible to founder a growing 2-year-old on coastal California's dryland pasture in August, but Shadow managed. Part of the problem was that I had let her get a bit overweight during the winter, then she porked up even more when the grass got good in the spring. My experiences indicate that the Fjord metabolism reacts similarly to that of a donkey. I've read that equines that are overweight in their first year or two of life are at much higher risk for joint disorders. Carrying too much weight on growing bones/joints just isn't good for them. And, I can attest that it's much easier to put weight onto a slim Fjord than it is to take it off of a chubby one. IMHO, your yearlings probably ought not be "chubby", so, yes, rationing is a good idea. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: Very Sore front feet
This message is from: "Jill E. Fishinger CPA P.C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello, I have been paying very close attention to this discussion on founder. Our fjords are about 1 year old and getting quite chubby. While they are growing is founder possible or likely? Should they be rationed or are they too young? Anxious Mommy In Alma, Colorado Jill E. - Original Message - From: "Nancy Blauers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Very Sore front feet > This message is from: "Nancy Blauers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hi Everyone!I've been lurking for a spell and when I saw the notes on the > potential founder I had to write! Please take this very seriously! My QH > gelding had almost identical situation about three weeks before he really > foundered. He was very ouchy on his front feet one morning, my trainer > called the vet, who ruled out founder.We gave "Sam" a week off from > training. This was about 3 weeks before he really was in trouble, during > this time he seemed ok, so we started light work again. "Sam" then broke > out in hives, then had a really bad upper respiratory incident at a show. > The following weekend, my trainer found him lying down in his paddock > late in the afternoon and could not get him to stand. She pulled her > trailer up close to him, managed to get him up just enough to get him in > and then hauled him to the closest Equine Hospital. He was given > antibiotics& DMSO intravenous. After the intitial onset of laminitis, > which occured in ALL FOUR FEET! we brought him home and waited to see the > degree of rotation, which can happen a month to 5 months after the > initial onset. We had several x rays taken during the course of this time > and found that Sam had rotated 11 degrees in his left and 9 in his > right.His hind feet were fine. We hired a farrier who had extensive > expereince treating foundered horses. It was close to a full year before > he was sound and ridable again.My vet says he has recovered 100 > percent. I now only enjoy him for a little arena work & trail riding,& > I watch his diet like a hawk.He's out right now playing with my fjords, > his best buddy is little Theodin! There are so many triggers to set off > this horrible illness, and so many ways that it can creep up on you like > Sam's did. Please get another opinon fast! Best of luck to you and please > keep us updated. Nancy BlauersGeneva,Fl
Re: Very Sore front feet
This message is from: "Nancy Blauers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Everyone!I've been lurking for a spell and when I saw the notes on the potential founder I had to write! Please take this very seriously! My QH gelding had almost identical situation about three weeks before he really foundered. He was very ouchy on his front feet one morning, my trainer called the vet, who ruled out founder.We gave "Sam" a week off from training. This was about 3 weeks before he really was in trouble, during this time he seemed ok, so we started light work again. "Sam" then broke out in hives, then had a really bad upper respiratory incident at a show. The following weekend, my trainer found him lying down in his paddock late in the afternoon and could not get him to stand. She pulled her trailer up close to him, managed to get him up just enough to get him in and then hauled him to the closest Equine Hospital. He was given antibiotics& DMSO intravenous. After the intitial onset of laminitis, which occured in ALL FOUR FEET! we brought him home and waited to see the degree of rotation, which can happen a month to 5 months after the initial onset. We had several x rays taken during the course of this time and found that Sam had rotated 11 degrees in his left and 9 in his right.His hind feet were fine. We hired a farrier who had extensive expereince treating foundered horses. It was close to a full year before he was sound and ridable again.My vet says he has recovered 100 percent. I now only enjoy him for a little arena work & trail riding,& I watch his diet like a hawk.He's out right now playing with my fjords, his best buddy is little Theodin! There are so many triggers to set off this horrible illness, and so many ways that it can creep up on you like Sam's did. Please get another opinon fast! Best of luck to you and please keep us updated. Nancy BlauersGeneva,Fl
RE: very sore front feet
This message is from: "Frederick J. Pack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Direct purchase from: http://www.figuerola-labs.com/equineproducts.htm Best deals to be had by calling 1-800-219-1147 such as buy 3 and get a 4th for free... You have to ask for the deals. The deals that Jean mention may work out even cheaper. I just ordered 15lbs of inflammasaver and 15lbs of laminasaver direct from figuerola. I bought 4 and got a 5th one free. Then I got a flyer from them offering: buy 3 and get a 4th for free. Fred All Mail is scanned in AND out by Norton Anti-virus 2004. Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, Washington 98396 http://www.geocities.com/friendlyfred98 This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fred where did you get that lamina saver? Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: very sore front feet
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cheapest is KV VET supply.. Shipping will be free to you, too (not to me in Alaska) http://www.kvvet.com 1-800-423-8211 Lamina saver Item #41883 3 lbs. $199.99 Inflamma saver Item # 41881 3 lbs. $ 99.99 Joint Saver Item # 41879 3lbs. $119.95 I take the Joint Saver myself! Great stuff! Jean in warm and muggy Fairbanks, Alaska, where we have had downpours every night! 80 degrees again, but NO SMOKE!!! >Fred where did you get that lamina saver? Jean Gayle
Re: very sore front feet
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fred where did you get that lamina saver? Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
RE: very sore front feet
This message is from: "Frederick J. Pack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cathy, sorry to hear about Fred's sore feet. This Fred's feet are sore too, but I've only got two. We have a mini-mare that foundered. Since that time, she has been on Figuerola's Lamina Saver and Inflamma Saver. Only one relapse in 4 years. It isn't cheap, but it works... Like has been suggested, check hoof temperature...they should be cool. Check the pulse at the feet. Bute will help, but it can be dangerous if used too longulcers in the stomach and esophagus. NO GRAIN for Fred until you find out whether it is founder or not... Feed him only AIR and WATER for a while Our vet came out and made foot pads out of dental casting material for the underside of the hoof. Worked great until the Lamina-Saver kicked in. Fred All Mail is scanned in AND out by Norton Anti-virus 2004. Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, Washington 98396 http://www.geocities.com/friendlyfred98
Re: very sore front feet
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry to hear that your Fjord is so sore. A picture is worth a thousand words -- can you post some online or send to me in email? / )_~ /L/L Brigid Wasson SF Bay Area, CA www.Brigid.Clickryder.com www.MillwoodRanch.com
Re: very sore front feet
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Have you taken the pulse in his fetlock? a bounding pulse felt there is indicative. a heart rate of 60 is higher than normal indicating pain. To feel the pulse in his fetlock run your hand down around the back and sides of the fetlock joint. I wouldn't rule out laminitis (founder) Are his feet hot? did the vet use a hoof tester, feel for heat or a bounding pulse? Meanwhile you can cushion his feet with styrofoam pads, fastened on with vet wrap and duct tape..or get a pair of hoof boots..easy boots or the new boa boots which are easy to put on..and put some foam in the bottom. You can cut styrofoam pads to cushion his feet and put a Frog support there too.. http://www.laminitis.org/fitting%20frog%20supports.html tape the styrofoam pad on with duct tape. Anyway, I would get a second opinion. Here is another reference..: http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/frandlmt.htm I am no expert..so far I haven't had to deal with laminitis in my fjords, but Bjarne had a hoof abcess which was extremely painful. Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, wet morning after thunderstorms and downpours last night..cooled off from 82 degrees yesterday >Our 8 year old gelding, Fred (heavy draft model) has often been a little >tender footed after the farrier's trimming. No trouble really - one day >tip-toeing over the gravel - fine on a softer surface. This time it's >different. The farrier suggested he has had some bruising on the sole towards >the toe. (Both front feet) After the trimming, Fred was extremely sore. That >was 3 weeks ago. He seemed to be getting better, though we felt he wasn't >quite right enough to drive and ride. We have kept him away from the richer >pasture too - thinking of founder. I have seen Fred standing with his front >heels down, toes slightly raised. There does not appear to be any puncture >marks on the sole. >Our vet came by the other day and seemed to dismiss the idea of founder.
Re: very sore front feet
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> more good references: http://equisearch.com/care/hoofcare/ http://equisearch.com/magazines/Equus/spotlaminitis_032305/
Re: very sore front feet
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cathy, I do not know where you are but that sounds like founder. Elevated pulse, soreness after trimming etc. Soak in cold water, use the hose to hose his feet. He needs pain meds, bute is good but can cause ulcers over a period of time. Most important is what are you feeding? Here in western Washington we are having many founders as the grass is really richer than I have seen before. Keep him off the grass and on poor hay only. Soak his feet many times a day with the hose to cool them but most important get your Vet to treat him as tho it is founder. There is another diagnoses of "seedy toe" but I am not familiar with that. Is he over weight? My big horse Charley now twenty five is also showing signs of founder which he has never done before. Best of luck, Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: very sore front feet
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520