Re: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Why would you breed any mare or stallion that could carry the LW gene > without doing the blood test first? It only cost $25 to find out if your > horse is a carrier." Because this was in 1980---I believe this was before the test had been developed. Barb
Re: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: "Reena Giola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> My girlfriend's mare had the lethal white. Most gorgeous colt we had ever seen..and he had to be put down. was so extremely sad. at the time (this was in early'97) I don't think it was talked about much in the paint horse circle. My friend had been into paints for awhile, but she had never heard about it. Her partner in the breedings is/was a paint breeder and it was never ever mentioned. She had bred her mare three times previous to that.That year, right before the birth of the colt, the APHA journal had an article in it about Letal Whites and it was the first she had ever heard about it. According to the article, she had gotten the exact percentages that the APHA says you can get on OVERO/OVERO matings (color wisebreeding stock/colored/lethal white--think the colored ones are 50% and the other two at 25% each) and that is unfortunately what she got that year. Please don't quote me on this, it's been many years since this all happened.all I know was it was a sad year at the barn. And I don't think they had a blood test then?! By the way, not sure how many of you blanket your horses, but I have a Rambo heavy winter blanket, size 72, that has never been used. Got it for Gustav when we moved from CA to MI thinking with him being older and not used to the COLD weather, he might need it. Well, he didn't. If anyone is interested in drop me an email.We don't need it in AZ now! LOL Reena This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Why would you breed any mare or stallion that could carry the LW gene without doing the blood test first? It only cost $25 to find out if your horse is a carrier.
Re: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Barb, Why would you breed any mare or stallion that could carry the LW gene without doing the blood test first? It only cost $25 to find out if your horse is a carrier. No mare should have to go through carrying a foal to be put down. No foal should be born a lethal white. It is a very painful condition and they must be put down as soon as possible. Lisa Wiley Turnabout Portuguese Water Dogs Connecticut State Director Ponies With Purpose Corresponding Secretary FASTeam http://www.myturnabout.com
RE: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean Ernest wrote: The Lethal white > occurs in paints,,I forget which,Overo, I think. breeding two with a lot > of white may produce an lethal whit..Many don't even survive to be born. Jean, You are right about it being Overo that produces the lethal white. Howerver, it can happen to any that carry the overo gene. A friend had a crop out mare (QH who had too much for the QH registry at that time) woh had only one white spot on her belly. She had a lethal white when bred to an overo stallion. When I bred my breeding stock mare to an overo stallion I kept my fingers crossed! I lucked out! Barb Lynch
RE: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> You can see the picture of the Kvit on the NFHR website, gallery, colors. He has pink skin, would be white if he were clean, probably blue eyes. light hooves. I bet he is a beautiful horse. The Lethal white occurs in paints,,I forget which,Overo, I think. breeding two with a lot of white may produce an lethal whit..Many don't even survive to be born. It is hard to believe that two greys could produce a Kvit..I'll have to study Sponenberg's latest book and his article on the NFHR website. I have a white mare who looks like she might be a yellow..Pale yellow on her face and legs. BUT she has a sprinkling of black hairs in her mane..enough now it looks like a pale grey stripe..(thought it was dirt until I did a real good shampoo job!) She also has a bunch of black hairs in her predominately white tail. Gold eyes, dark skin and hooves, black eye liner. She is Anvil's Adel, dam is Anvil's Stina, sire Leidjo. She has full siblings that are White duns, and several like her (or yellows?) She is beautiful when she is clean! But seems to always be the dirtiest of them all (Miss Piggy!) My 30 year old gelding, Bjarne C23, has the same Grandsire on both sides, Stolman-C1. he was bred when there were few stallions available. ...Stolman was the first registered in the CFHA It appears, looking at the CLRC records, that Anne Notnes imported 6 FJords form Denmark..5 mares and one stallion. starting with #7, they are descendants of these first 6 up through # 30. It would be interesting to read the history of Fjords in Canada in the CFHA! Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, record heat yesterday and today but the smoke has rolled in from wildfires. 82 degrees. was 88 here yesterday! .>Anyhow I thought it would be a plus such that if someone >wanted to breed their grey stallion to my grey mare's, but I learned >that this could possibly produce a undesirable KVIT. Still don't know >what that is all about, I have heard about a "lethal white" but not >sure if that is a KVIT or not? Still learning and need to learn more on >this. If two greys could produce a KVIT, why couldn't two Browns? >Could two of the same of any color? And what is so bad about a KVIT >anyhow? Is it just a color gene thing, or something else that will >handicap the horse? I need details in plain English. That's how I >learn best.
RE: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It may be that the Fjord breeders forum would be a more ideal place to hash these things out, verses the general fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com forum. Maybe where this whole thread about genetic pool depletion, yada, yada, yada should have started to begin with. Personally I see maybe 20-30 years ago our stallion/ breeding pool may have been more genetically limited, and concern for this sort of thing may have been more valid back then. But I also see us going the right direction, More blood lines, more diversity, and the family tree going horizontal verses vertical. 10 years ago I occasionally saw father/daughter Mother/son breeding, but not much then, more common though was some Grandparent/Grandchild breeding. And I think that was because of the lack of either genetic variance in breeding stock, geographic location, or just people that didn't want to pay $1000 breeding fee, but wanted to make a buck or have a cute little baby. Unfortunately the people I saw doing it were the then big time breeders and not the 2 horse shows. They had 8 mares, and they were gonna have 8 foals to sell. Now I rarely hear of it and the guidelines to stay registered prohibit this sort of thing today, if it is enforced. Any how, a good direction here in the USofA, a true positive trend. I think education is the key, especially for new horse owners/breeders. Showing them how to read the registration papers/ family tree etc, and the NFHR guidelines regarding breeding. I think most people want to do right by genetics, as well as get a good quality, sound, mentally stable horse when they breed. Others just look at the bucks. Also remember education is a on going process and we must all continue this path thru life. I'm not to proud to say I still learn things, every day. Just like reading these forums. I figured it was sorta nice to have my brown stallion and mares always produce greys. Well at least 6 so far. Anyhow I thought it would be a plus such that if someone wanted to breed their grey stallion to my grey mare's, but I learned that this could possibly produce a undesirable KVIT. Still don't know what that is all about, I have heard about a "lethal white" but not sure if that is a KVIT or not? Still learning and need to learn more on this. If two greys could produce a KVIT, why couldn't two Browns? Could two of the same of any color? And what is so bad about a KVIT anyhow? Is it just a color gene thing, or something else that will handicap the horse? I need details in plain English. That's how I learn best. Maybe, as a source of education, the breeders group could come up with a couple pages on good breeding guidelines, which would be given or sent to each new owner of a registered breeding capable Fjord, either as the seller or as paperwork that would come with registration papers when you register a new horse under your name. Just my 2cents, and that may be all it's worth. Mark in sunny, somewhat dry, but the rain's a comin, Helena Montana -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:33 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Research on behalf of Fjords This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some really constructive ideas here. What about the possibilities of getting some of the breeders to participate in roundtables or presentations which could then be distributed via all the wonderful electronic media which we have. Comments?
Re: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some really constructive ideas here. What about the possibilities of getting some of the breeders to participate in roundtables or presentations which could then be distributed via all the wonderful electronic media which we have. Not everyone is going to have the time or the resources to go halfway across the continent to talk to a breeder who seems to have it right, or to talk to multiple breeders which would be even better. Lets take advantage of this wonderful age of electronics to share information, but share it in a way that personal feelings do not get trampled on. No-one has all the answers, but some of the breeders seem to have developed systems and perspectives that result in a consistency of quality product which is enviable. Lets take advantage of that expertise and respect the differences. How about a breeders symposium? I am in the category of someone very interested in breeding and the amount of information to dig through is enormous and not always readily available, or more specifically, organized into a form that makes the distillation of process and principle from a pile of facts and figures easy. For weeks my kitchen table has been covered with little lines and squiggles and horse names trying to piece together the relationships of our horses. A couple of hours with a knowlegable, proven breeder, in the presence of the horses she was talking about was worth more than months of trying to piece things together on my own, and I am used to research, and have training and experience in genetics. I am a shameless opportunist and would like to take the best from the best and incorporate it in my program. To avoid partisan comments from others on the list I will not tell who it was but she knows and I cannot thank her enough for the time she took with me on a recent vistit to her facility. If everyone interested in breeding had access to this kind of discussion in the presence of actual examples, I think that we might find that we have fewer differences than we think. Comments?
Re: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: "Warren Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think for the most part we have pretty savvy breeders here in NA. My concern is for the "back yard breeders" which most were at some point, not having enough knowledge. Some one mentioned a volunteer mentoring program which I for one would jump at. Education is key to doing anything with the quality it should be done in. I would bet that most of you started some place in the horse industry wide eyed and high hoped as did I. When it came down to having it all on your own farm it's a different story. I myself got the " now what did I get my self into " feeling. No matter how much I knew I wasn't aware how much I didn't. The horses taught me that: )) With out people wanting to continue breeding this wonderful breed where would it be?? So I guess my next question would than be why not educate new Fjord owners. Mentor them so we can have some quality education and basic knowledge so we might be able to head off the haphazard breeding and the keeping of poor quality studs or the handling of studs by folks that are either afraid of them, or not knowledgeable. Why would anyone have a stud with out having the skill to handle one is beyond me. Not to mention the legal issues that can crop. I take some offence to the term back yard breeder since that's where most breeders come from unless they were born on a breeding ranch and than it was there parents that started in the back yard. I don't know that the evaluation system is the complete answer. It is to difficult for most of us when we run farms to take time away. I for one had to drop out due to hay down. Gotta make hay when the sun shines : )) For those of us can't get to them maybe to run a taping and do video sales of evals. Have a mentor go through them with the newbies. There's a lot more thoughts in here SCARY : )) But I gotta take care of a sick kid. Roberta - Original Message - From: "Lori Albrough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Research on behalf of Fjords > This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I was just wondering what the technical definition of stallion > "over-selection" is? Isn't stallion selection a natural phenomenon, in > the wild that is? Not every male horse will grow up to breed, only the > fastest, strongest, most macho ones. The rest live in bachelor bands. So > if stallion selection is a natural phenomenon, what exactly is stallion > over-selection? There must be a technical definition, like a stallion > who is breeding so many percentage of the population of mares, or so and > so much inbreeding coefficient existing in the general population. > > I also wondered what likelihood we have of the phenomenon occuring here > in North America, where a "much-used" stallion breeds perhaps 10 mares. > I remember the year after Julie imported Flotren he was the most-used > stallion in NA and bred almost 20 mares. I wonder what that would be in > proportion to the population of breedable mares that year? And what > would be the average number of mares the average Fjord stallion breeds > in NA each year - 3 mares per year (Mike?) > > Clearly selecting for a specific trait, like breeding tall to tall to > try to get taller, is bad - but selecting for overall quality and > performance, and trying to make the most intelligent match of stallion > and mare, is good breeding sense. And whoever said breeding is a > crapshoot was right on the money. Horses have many ways to keep us humble. > > Lori Albrough
Re: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I was just wondering what the technical definition of stallion "over-selection" is? Isn't stallion selection a natural phenomenon, in the wild that is? Not every male horse will grow up to breed, only the fastest, strongest, most macho ones. The rest live in bachelor bands. So if stallion selection is a natural phenomenon, what exactly is stallion over-selection? There must be a technical definition, like a stallion who is breeding so many percentage of the population of mares, or so and so much inbreeding coefficient existing in the general population. I also wondered what likelihood we have of the phenomenon occuring here in North America, where a "much-used" stallion breeds perhaps 10 mares. I remember the year after Julie imported Flotren he was the most-used stallion in NA and bred almost 20 mares. I wonder what that would be in proportion to the population of breedable mares that year? And what would be the average number of mares the average Fjord stallion breeds in NA each year - 3 mares per year (Mike?) Clearly selecting for a specific trait, like breeding tall to tall to try to get taller, is bad - but selecting for overall quality and performance, and trying to make the most intelligent match of stallion and mare, is good breeding sense. And whoever said breeding is a crapshoot was right on the money. Horses have many ways to keep us humble. Lori Albrough
Re: Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: Mariposa Farm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It was I who brought up the subject of Stallion Evaluations in America. It was more of an educational goal for our stallion owners. What I wanted to accomplish by this is that all stallion owners would know the strengths and weaknesses of their respective stallions. ...and I felt that more knowledge was better. Thank you for responding to it and starting some dialogue - good thing someone reads the minutes! > Mark Oh. ..because the 'm' on member was small I assumed it was a Fjord individual membership person, not an NFHR BOD Member. I appreciate you clarifying your identity and intention, Mark, also your fair-minded and pleasant exchange, thank you. I commend your efforts for what you must feel is a noble endeavor. Educational goals are worthy motive, and I too can see the merit in conformational assessments, but when you add graded ribbons to the mix, emphasis on preferred stallions by promotion of evaluation high score-ranking.. you definitely have the potential for over-selection. People are schooled from youth up to aim for ribbons. As the present evaluating system stands, it is mainly those who have time and money who participate--not necessarily the best breeding candidate who may have stayed home. Of the two choices, the majority of folks will select that blue-ribboned stud even though the unevaluated stud could have better intrinsic allele value.. so whether or not evaluations are forced it is aside from the issue of diversity, as over-selection comes about through promotional marketing and a misguided emphasis as well. I am concerned that the conveyance, conformational evaluating, is evolving into an unwavering pride-laden momentum of its own, extraneous of the FJ breed's welfare. Ribbons fade, trophies tarnish, glory passes --but the breed must continue forever and it is diversity, not concentration, that allows for the survival of a species. I don't agree that this is a simple matter, in truth it is very complex, that's where professional genetic counsel comes in. The key component on this issue is flexibility... an openness for innovative ways and means of upgrading the long-range welfare of the Fjordhorse as a whole breed, and not just favoring an elite few for profit and glamour. Inclusionary instead of exclusionary. In reference to traditional Norwegian breeding practices, there are presently those Norwegians searching out this very issue of breed diversity in the Fjordhorse as well. Here is one site from the Norwegian Ministry of Agriculture, (Nordic Gene Bank Farm Animals) in which Fjords are mentioned. A conclusion statement, pg 4 under horses, states, "Considerable changes must be made in modern breeding programs in order to optimize the programs by placing more emphasis on inbreeding and kinship. The long-term negative effect of the extensive use of a limited number of sires is shown to be significantly greater than found in previous studies and models. The conclusion is that significant aspects of breeding strategies need to be changed in order to obtain optimized breeding programs." http://www.nordgen.org/english/projects/ngh-projects.htm Ruthie, nw mt US
research on behalf of fjords
This message is from: "Ursula & Brian Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthieagain, evaluation means education NOT mandatory use of specific stallions. If all stallions are evaluated the mare owners would have an education tool for selection.(what is so difficult to understand here?)..they would still have a choice in what stallion they choose for their mare. I have NEVER heard anyone promote 'best to the best ' I don't believe the NFHR is looking at licensing stallions either so no matter how a stallion scores he is still able to breed. It's that simple (to me anyhow) ursula Ursula & Brian Jensen Trinity Fjords Box 1032 Lumby BC, V0E 2G0 Canada 250-547-6303 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://okjunc.junction.net/~ujensen/
Re: Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think one of the aggravating things about "all stallions" evaluated is the control issue. We are under so many rules and regulations from our Govt. to get us all in narrow line that not only is the evaluation of all stallions not possible but would no more control the get unless you "evaluated all the brood mares" and even then don't we always wait for the birth to see what we got? Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: Mariposa Farm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Ruth, It was I who brought up the subject of Stallion Evaluations in America. (Which I'm sure you know is being done in a similar fashion in European countries, and has been for quite some time). It was not my intent to have our gene pool "shrunk" and creating a situation where only the "best are bred to the best". It was more of an educational goal for our stallion owners. My very informal proposal did not include a score that they had to make or any "licensing" involved. What I wanted to accomplish by this is that all stallion owners would know the strengths and weaknesses of their respective stallions. Most Stallions in this country breed very few mares each year and they are usually the owner's herd. That stallion has a huge impact on their breeding program and I felt that more knowledge was better. I don't think we have a problem with only a few stallions breeding the mares of North America. I also knew that my proposal would never fly this time around but I wanted to get the idea in peoples head that this is a direction we should be heading. Thank you for responding to it and starting some dialogue - good thing someone reads the minutes! Mark McGinley NFHR Director Mariposa Farm Washburn, WI
Re: Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie, I would have to agree with you. I breed Portuguese water dogs. About fifteen years ago a recessive genetic disease was discovered and a gene marker test was developed to identify carriers. The club recommended spaying and neutering all carriers. It was considered bad breeding to breed a carrier even if breeding to a non-carrier where the disease would not occur. Several years later a new problem pops up. Come to find out it was not carried by the lines that carried the first disease. Most of the dogs in those lines were spayed and neutered. The problem did not show up until that line was taken out of the gene pool. We now have a DNA test for the second disease and breeding carriers to non-carriers is not even considered a problem. Unfortunately most of one line was almost destroyed. Portuguese water dogs go back to two major lines. By trying to limit the gene pool the club nearly destroyed the breed diversity. Lisa Wiley Turnabout Portuguese Water Dogs Connecticut State Director Ponies With Purpose Corresponding Secretary FASTeam http://www.myturnabout.com
Research on behalf of Fjords
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In reading the Minutes in the spring issue of the Fjord Herald I came across an item that galvanized my unbridled interest. It says, "Evaluation-the board discussed a member's proposal that every stallion be evaluated" ..and went on to say that the BOD tabled the subject for "further study." Well, following a week of excitement management, expletives deleted, I think I am ready to offer civil comment. I protest this proposal on solid scientific information. Breeding the best-to-best has historically been a method of consistently producing handsome horses for profit, but "HISTORY" it is. Currently, this best-to-best popular school of thought is considered to be outdated by conservational geneticists, and is commonly referred to as over-selection. A person who would suggest any program that limits stallions is out of touch with reality and research. Some decades back it was discovered that this practice of only using a choice group selected from within a breed is a two-edged sword, because invariably it conversely leads to an inbreeding depression. Similar genes consequently overlap, because the total breeding population has in effect been reduced to a rare breed of its own, a "genetic bottleneck." So, while it is true that over-selection does produce prime specimens, it is also true that it INCREASES the probability of inheriting any hidden negative recessive characteristics that may go along with the animal's genotype. In the future, some of the most serious health and welfare problems in horses at large, will have been caused by continued over-selection for certain appearance and performance traits. Genetic traits are linked in complex ways and over-selecting for one trait causes corresponding changes in other traits, which become detrimentally multiplied through gene overlapping. There is now an abundance of reliable evidence that illustrates that limiting studs causes homozygosity (lack of genetic variation) and some of the documented consequences are; loss of size and bone, compromised immunity, temperament extremes, infertility, and loss of maternal instinct and foal's milk. If ensuing Fjord generations are FORCED to breed best-to-best, Fjord diversity will diminish with the coming of homozygosity. "Form does not follow function" at all, as is commonly repeated."form" helplessly follows a breeder's selection of chromosome combinations that might be haphazardly thrown together, without research, without foresight, without a breeding strategy, without caution. Is there a lifeguard at the gene pool of the Fjord horse? Who dares suggest we reduce it to an inbred "puddle" instead, by limiting studs through registry force?! I asked Professor Blackburn, an animal scientist at the Colorado State University, the National Center for Genetic Resources Preservation (NCGRP and USDA-ARS) if he thought that a restricted stud number would create a breeding ratio imbalance, possible inbreeding, and he responded by saying, "yes, the condition can result in increased levels of inbreeding and a potential loss of genetic diversity." It is only logical that any manner of genetic isolation inevitably leads to a breed's degeneration. Hellmuth Wachtel, PhD says, "it's time for a NEW approach, restricted breeding was once a valuable tool in shaping today's breeds, but these have now reached a high degree of homogeneity, it has lost its importance and turned into a fatal and disastrous habit." Strategy? ..there can be NO breeding strategy behind the suggestion of forcing stallions to be evaluated, even other diehard non-Fjord breeders who deliberately inbreed at least have a strategy, they use one inbred line to a very different inbred line, in order to retain hybrid vigor. A proposal of a Fjord breeding criteria that designates only those stallions which have been judged by practicing evaluators; for cursory assessments by individual predilections, is in no way a basis for a sound breeding strategy. there is NO underlying strategy for conservation genetics, NO direction for the future of Fjord generations, and NO research authentication, in this misguided and short-sighted member who is out of touch with modern breeding research. I have done considerable in-depth Internet research on conservation genetics, equine breed diversity, genetic drift, and inbreeding coefficients, and found VOLUMES of professional information that warns against using only chosen breed candidates, selected for superficial reasons and not multiple intrinsic values. I would be glad to share my findings with anyone. A reduced stud ratio is a potential time bomb. I urge that we seek modern information and professional breeding counsel in this matter. I implore the silent majority of the Fjord membership to contact the NFHR and speak up on behalf of Fjords and their descendants ...every voice counts, even if it's only a few words. All it takes for misinform
