RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
To John Mark Hawley: I plea ignorance. It won't happen again. Sorry. To Carl Welch and Ron Wheeler: Thx for your insight and non wanna-be-elitist views. (I am no different than anyone here in that I am learning. Thx for sharing) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Carl Welch Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 9:10 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? Why worry about code you've written before? If it were an issue then no one would be able to build more than one web page in a life time because you'll inevitably use the same embed tags more than once. No client knows how or what you code, much less who your other clients are. Also, if you let someone pay you $11 dollars an hour - then you are only worth $11 dollars an hour. --carl On 6/20/06, Ron Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Mark Lapasa wrote: > > These are most interesting points Radley. > > > > However on the topic of 'pre-made code', I am now wondering what is the > > practices of some the freelancer/consultants/etc. on the list. If people pay > > you money for code, be it 30k or 100k, is it right to use your past > > developed code on future code? > > > > I think when taking on gig's, it's meant that you are generating code they > > don't would not initially have. Once the gig is done, I think the business > > has an understanding that they paid you for the code and they own the code? > > > > > They usually own the code but not the things that you have learned > writing it. > > If they don't own the code, then does it becomes a matter of licensing? > > > If it one or 2 classes, then you can rewrite it pretty easily. If it is > a whole set of functionality that you want to reuse, it is probably a > good idea to ask for permission. They will likely say "yes" and they > will be very impressed by your ethics. > > I guess what I am asking is if you have previously developed code and use it > > on other clients, is it ok? > > > > > It leaves your new clients open to being sued. Not likely to happen but > it can be very embarrassing. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Radley > > Marx > > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:12 PM > > To: Flashcoders mailing list > > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > > > > > > > > > > apologies for keeping this thread open... > > > > From what I've gleaned, while the rate quoted to you may be low, it > > does sound like a transitionary rate and appropriate. Not that you're > > only worth it but because you sound very inexperienced in the market. > > > > What I mean by "inexperienced" is you have to ask if 30k is too low, > > and you also have another day job which sounds unrelated to your > > Flash/Flex work. So at this point, you may have to grab at what's > > offered. > > > > I'd recommend caution with this gig and make sure you're not tied to > > it too long. I'd look at it as a "paid internship" where you're > > basically getting your first "notch in your belt" as you change careers. > > > > If you haven't considered creating a portfolio for yourself, now is > > the time to build it. Don't put too much time into it and especially > > don't let it hold you in "almost done" limbo. A list of skills, a > > gallery of projects completed (even student and/or "lame" ones), and > > contact info are all you need at this stage. > > > > In the meantime, begin to look around your area and find out where > > the "real" Flash/Flex work is (studios, ad agencies, internet > > companies). Begin to make contacts. Let them know who you are and > > you're availability. > > > > Part of making $50/hr (& much more) isn't always about making a > > decent rate like everyone else does. It's often about having multiple > > potential clients needing your help and willing to pay for it. And > > each project you build adds more and more "pre-made" pieces you have > > for the next gig. Those "pre-built" pieces are there to save your > > client time, but still make you $$ - another foundation for why we > > can make much more $$ per hour. > > > > It'll take time to build up your rate, so focus on the first steps: > > do a good job with your first gig, get your portfolio up, and get in > > touch
Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
I had a situation were my hourly rate was roughly three times the hourly rate a particular company was use to paying for Flash work. They wanted me to come down in price and by a lot whereas I felt I was already a bargain. It was a short four week project and feeling confident in my capabilities I suggested something he hadn't heard before. I offered to work for them 2 days for free. If at the end of the two days they were unhappy with my work they could say "no thanks" and owe me nothing. However, should they want me to stay past the two days I get my asking rate for those two days already worked and continued for the remainder of my stay. They were comfortable with the offer and agreed. I was very confident in my capabilities so I felt it was a low risk offer. As it turned out, they asked me to stay an additional two weeks past the original four and they couldn't be happier. If you feel you are worth the rate you are asking, you shouldn't lower it. If for some reason you feel it's your only option I would recommend creating your invoice at your proper rate with a discount line at the bottom so they get use to seeing your correct hourly rate. Removing a "first project" discount (or something of the sort) in the future is a heck of a lot easier than trying to raise your hourly rate. Good luck, James Kevin Mulvihill wrote: $11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think they can pay developers peanuts Here, here. Denver is a big city comparable to L.A., where I am. And in this city, bag boys at grocery stores are making $11/hr. Even way back in '97 when I was in my last corporate job, it was costing us $15/hr. just to have a temp come in and put papers in a filing cabinet. Is that how you see yourself? As unskilled labor??? Now if the idea is just that the guy wants to check you out and make sure you can do the work, then I might give him a few DAYS at $11/hr. and then revert to an honest pay scale if he wants to keep you... And this assumes that you don't have any references or much in the way of code samples to share. The real question then becomes 'how long is it going to take to get you up to speed?' If the guy is thinking several months, then you would clearly be foolish to accept that offer. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will either... And your getting 'up to speed' could take a very long time indeed. Kevin ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
Why worry about code you've written before? If it were an issue then no one would be able to build more than one web page in a life time because you'll inevitably use the same embed tags more than once. No client knows how or what you code, much less who your other clients are. Also, if you let someone pay you $11 dollars an hour - then you are only worth $11 dollars an hour. --carl On 6/20/06, Ron Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mark Lapasa wrote: > These are most interesting points Radley. > > However on the topic of 'pre-made code', I am now wondering what is the > practices of some the freelancer/consultants/etc. on the list. If people pay > you money for code, be it 30k or 100k, is it right to use your past > developed code on future code? > > I think when taking on gig's, it's meant that you are generating code they > don't would not initially have. Once the gig is done, I think the business > has an understanding that they paid you for the code and they own the code? > > They usually own the code but not the things that you have learned writing it. > If they don't own the code, then does it becomes a matter of licensing? > If it one or 2 classes, then you can rewrite it pretty easily. If it is a whole set of functionality that you want to reuse, it is probably a good idea to ask for permission. They will likely say "yes" and they will be very impressed by your ethics. > I guess what I am asking is if you have previously developed code and use it > on other clients, is it ok? > > It leaves your new clients open to being sued. Not likely to happen but it can be very embarrassing. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Radley > Marx > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:12 PM > To: Flashcoders mailing list > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > > > > > apologies for keeping this thread open... > > From what I've gleaned, while the rate quoted to you may be low, it > does sound like a transitionary rate and appropriate. Not that you're > only worth it but because you sound very inexperienced in the market. > > What I mean by "inexperienced" is you have to ask if 30k is too low, > and you also have another day job which sounds unrelated to your > Flash/Flex work. So at this point, you may have to grab at what's > offered. > > I'd recommend caution with this gig and make sure you're not tied to > it too long. I'd look at it as a "paid internship" where you're > basically getting your first "notch in your belt" as you change careers. > > If you haven't considered creating a portfolio for yourself, now is > the time to build it. Don't put too much time into it and especially > don't let it hold you in "almost done" limbo. A list of skills, a > gallery of projects completed (even student and/or "lame" ones), and > contact info are all you need at this stage. > > In the meantime, begin to look around your area and find out where > the "real" Flash/Flex work is (studios, ad agencies, internet > companies). Begin to make contacts. Let them know who you are and > you're availability. > > Part of making $50/hr (& much more) isn't always about making a > decent rate like everyone else does. It's often about having multiple > potential clients needing your help and willing to pay for it. And > each project you build adds more and more "pre-made" pieces you have > for the next gig. Those "pre-built" pieces are there to save your > client time, but still make you $$ - another foundation for why we > can make much more $$ per hour. > > It'll take time to build up your rate, so focus on the first steps: > do a good job with your first gig, get your portfolio up, and get in > touch with the proper market. > > good luck =) > > -radley > > > On Jun 20, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Tristan wrote: > > >> Well said. I agree. I'll test the waters and jump out if it's not >> working. >> I'm still keeping my day job until I'm satisfied with coming on >> full time. >> Although, now that missiles are being tossed our way, maybe I >> should just be >> happy to be alive! Geez, I hope someday we all get along. Life's >> too short >> as it is. >> >> Sorry, off topic comment but, I just heard about it and it's scary >> not for >> just usa but, for the whole world. >> >> Love, >> T >> >> On 6/20/06, Kevin Mulvihill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>>> $11/ h
Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
Mark Lapasa wrote: These are most interesting points Radley. However on the topic of 'pre-made code', I am now wondering what is the practices of some the freelancer/consultants/etc. on the list. If people pay you money for code, be it 30k or 100k, is it right to use your past developed code on future code? I think when taking on gig's, it's meant that you are generating code they don't would not initially have. Once the gig is done, I think the business has an understanding that they paid you for the code and they own the code? They usually own the code but not the things that you have learned writing it. If they don't own the code, then does it becomes a matter of licensing? If it one or 2 classes, then you can rewrite it pretty easily. If it is a whole set of functionality that you want to reuse, it is probably a good idea to ask for permission. They will likely say "yes" and they will be very impressed by your ethics. I guess what I am asking is if you have previously developed code and use it on other clients, is it ok? It leaves your new clients open to being sued. Not likely to happen but it can be very embarrassing. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Radley Marx Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:12 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? apologies for keeping this thread open... From what I've gleaned, while the rate quoted to you may be low, it does sound like a transitionary rate and appropriate. Not that you're only worth it but because you sound very inexperienced in the market. What I mean by "inexperienced" is you have to ask if 30k is too low, and you also have another day job which sounds unrelated to your Flash/Flex work. So at this point, you may have to grab at what's offered. I'd recommend caution with this gig and make sure you're not tied to it too long. I'd look at it as a "paid internship" where you're basically getting your first "notch in your belt" as you change careers. If you haven't considered creating a portfolio for yourself, now is the time to build it. Don't put too much time into it and especially don't let it hold you in "almost done" limbo. A list of skills, a gallery of projects completed (even student and/or "lame" ones), and contact info are all you need at this stage. In the meantime, begin to look around your area and find out where the "real" Flash/Flex work is (studios, ad agencies, internet companies). Begin to make contacts. Let them know who you are and you're availability. Part of making $50/hr (& much more) isn't always about making a decent rate like everyone else does. It's often about having multiple potential clients needing your help and willing to pay for it. And each project you build adds more and more "pre-made" pieces you have for the next gig. Those "pre-built" pieces are there to save your client time, but still make you $$ - another foundation for why we can make much more $$ per hour. It'll take time to build up your rate, so focus on the first steps: do a good job with your first gig, get your portfolio up, and get in touch with the proper market. good luck =) -radley On Jun 20, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Tristan wrote: Well said. I agree. I'll test the waters and jump out if it's not working. I'm still keeping my day job until I'm satisfied with coming on full time. Although, now that missiles are being tossed our way, maybe I should just be happy to be alive! Geez, I hope someday we all get along. Life's too short as it is. Sorry, off topic comment but, I just heard about it and it's scary not for just usa but, for the whole world. Love, T On 6/20/06, Kevin Mulvihill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: $11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think they can pay developers peanuts Here, here. Denver is a big city comparable to L.A., where I am. And in this city, bag boys at grocery stores are making $11/hr. Even way back in '97 when I was in my last corporate job, it was costing us $15/hr. just to have a temp come in and put papers in a filing cabinet. Is that how you see yourself? As unskilled labor??? Now if the idea is just that the guy wants to check you out and make sure you can do the work, then I might give him a few DAYS at $11/hr. and then revert to an honest pay scale if he wants to keep you... And this assumes that you don't have any references or much in the way of code samples to share. The real question then becomes 'how long is it going to take to get you up to speed?' If the guy is thinking several months, then you would clearly be foolish to accept that offer. If you don't respect yourse
RE: RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
Oh and thanks for those who did reply, it made a difference in my decision and attitude towards the whole thing. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Sacks | BLITZ Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:41 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > Please move this thread somewhere else. If 'OT' appears in > the subject line, that ought to be a clue to everyone that > the thread no longer belongs on Flashcoders. Intellectual > property and business practice discussions don't really belong here. Not to mention it has been discussed to death here many times before. Check the archives. Check the internet. This is not some new topic. If anything, this is further proof that Flashcoders has been infested with newbies. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
> If anything, this is further proof that Flashcoders has been infested with newbies. Ouch. I'm sorry. These lists are the only lists that I can usually get accurate and "happy to help" information for the majority of the time I guess. I just don't know if Monster or salary.com are good real world examples. I was hoping to maybe get someone from Denver to reply. I feel like I had a more specific question. Thread Closed. =8o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Sacks | BLITZ Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:41 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > Please move this thread somewhere else. If 'OT' appears in > the subject line, that ought to be a clue to everyone that > the thread no longer belongs on Flashcoders. Intellectual > property and business practice discussions don't really belong here. Not to mention it has been discussed to death here many times before. Check the archives. Check the internet. This is not some new topic. If anything, this is further proof that Flashcoders has been infested with newbies. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
> Please move this thread somewhere else. If 'OT' appears in > the subject line, that ought to be a clue to everyone that > the thread no longer belongs on Flashcoders. Intellectual > property and business practice discussions don't really belong here. Not to mention it has been discussed to death here many times before. Check the archives. Check the internet. This is not some new topic. If anything, this is further proof that Flashcoders has been infested with newbies. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
Please move this thread somewhere else. If 'OT' appears in the subject line, that ought to be a clue to everyone that the thread no longer belongs on Flashcoders. Intellectual property and business practice discussions don't really belong here. > > From: "Mark Lapasa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2006/06/20 Tue PM 04:27:50 CDT > To: "Flashcoders mailing list" > Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > > These are most interesting points Radley. > > However on the topic of 'pre-made code', I am now wondering what is the > practices of some the freelancer/consultants/etc. on the list. If people pay > you money for code, be it 30k or 100k, is it right to use your past > developed code on future code? > > I think when taking on gig's, it's meant that you are generating code they > don't would not initially have. Once the gig is done, I think the business > has an understanding that they paid you for the code and they own the code? > > If they don't own the code, then does it becomes a matter of licensing? > > I guess what I am asking is if you have previously developed code and use it > on other clients, is it ok? > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Radley > Marx > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:12 PM > To: Flashcoders mailing list > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > > > > > apologies for keeping this thread open... > > From what I've gleaned, while the rate quoted to you may be low, it > does sound like a transitionary rate and appropriate. Not that you're > only worth it but because you sound very inexperienced in the market. > > What I mean by "inexperienced" is you have to ask if 30k is too low, > and you also have another day job which sounds unrelated to your > Flash/Flex work. So at this point, you may have to grab at what's > offered. > > I'd recommend caution with this gig and make sure you're not tied to > it too long. I'd look at it as a "paid internship" where you're > basically getting your first "notch in your belt" as you change careers. > > If you haven't considered creating a portfolio for yourself, now is > the time to build it. Don't put too much time into it and especially > don't let it hold you in "almost done" limbo. A list of skills, a > gallery of projects completed (even student and/or "lame" ones), and > contact info are all you need at this stage. > > In the meantime, begin to look around your area and find out where > the "real" Flash/Flex work is (studios, ad agencies, internet > companies). Begin to make contacts. Let them know who you are and > you're availability. > > Part of making $50/hr (& much more) isn't always about making a > decent rate like everyone else does. It's often about having multiple > potential clients needing your help and willing to pay for it. And > each project you build adds more and more "pre-made" pieces you have > for the next gig. Those "pre-built" pieces are there to save your > client time, but still make you $$ - another foundation for why we > can make much more $$ per hour. > > It'll take time to build up your rate, so focus on the first steps: > do a good job with your first gig, get your portfolio up, and get in > touch with the proper market. > > good luck =) > > -radley > > > On Jun 20, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Tristan wrote: > > > Well said. I agree. I'll test the waters and jump out if it's not > > working. > > I'm still keeping my day job until I'm satisfied with coming on > > full time. > > Although, now that missiles are being tossed our way, maybe I > > should just be > > happy to be alive! Geez, I hope someday we all get along. Life's > > too short > > as it is. > > > > Sorry, off topic comment but, I just heard about it and it's scary > > not for > > just usa but, for the whole world. > > > > Love, > > T > > > > On 6/20/06, Kevin Mulvihill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> > $11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think > >> > they can pay developers peanuts > >> > >> Here, here. > >> > >> Denver is a big city comparable to L.A., where I am. And in this > >> city, bag > >> boys at grocery stores are making $11/hr. Even way back in '97 > >> when I was > >> in > >>
RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
These are most interesting points Radley. However on the topic of 'pre-made code', I am now wondering what is the practices of some the freelancer/consultants/etc. on the list. If people pay you money for code, be it 30k or 100k, is it right to use your past developed code on future code? I think when taking on gig's, it's meant that you are generating code they don't would not initially have. Once the gig is done, I think the business has an understanding that they paid you for the code and they own the code? If they don't own the code, then does it becomes a matter of licensing? I guess what I am asking is if you have previously developed code and use it on other clients, is it ok? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Radley Marx Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:12 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? apologies for keeping this thread open... From what I've gleaned, while the rate quoted to you may be low, it does sound like a transitionary rate and appropriate. Not that you're only worth it but because you sound very inexperienced in the market. What I mean by "inexperienced" is you have to ask if 30k is too low, and you also have another day job which sounds unrelated to your Flash/Flex work. So at this point, you may have to grab at what's offered. I'd recommend caution with this gig and make sure you're not tied to it too long. I'd look at it as a "paid internship" where you're basically getting your first "notch in your belt" as you change careers. If you haven't considered creating a portfolio for yourself, now is the time to build it. Don't put too much time into it and especially don't let it hold you in "almost done" limbo. A list of skills, a gallery of projects completed (even student and/or "lame" ones), and contact info are all you need at this stage. In the meantime, begin to look around your area and find out where the "real" Flash/Flex work is (studios, ad agencies, internet companies). Begin to make contacts. Let them know who you are and you're availability. Part of making $50/hr (& much more) isn't always about making a decent rate like everyone else does. It's often about having multiple potential clients needing your help and willing to pay for it. And each project you build adds more and more "pre-made" pieces you have for the next gig. Those "pre-built" pieces are there to save your client time, but still make you $$ - another foundation for why we can make much more $$ per hour. It'll take time to build up your rate, so focus on the first steps: do a good job with your first gig, get your portfolio up, and get in touch with the proper market. good luck =) -radley On Jun 20, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Tristan wrote: > Well said. I agree. I'll test the waters and jump out if it's not > working. > I'm still keeping my day job until I'm satisfied with coming on > full time. > Although, now that missiles are being tossed our way, maybe I > should just be > happy to be alive! Geez, I hope someday we all get along. Life's > too short > as it is. > > Sorry, off topic comment but, I just heard about it and it's scary > not for > just usa but, for the whole world. > > Love, > T > > On 6/20/06, Kevin Mulvihill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > $11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think >> > they can pay developers peanuts >> >> Here, here. >> >> Denver is a big city comparable to L.A., where I am. And in this >> city, bag >> boys at grocery stores are making $11/hr. Even way back in '97 >> when I was >> in >> my last corporate job, it was costing us $15/hr. just to have a >> temp come >> in >> and put papers in a filing cabinet. Is that how you see yourself? As >> unskilled labor??? >> >> Now if the idea is just that the guy wants to check you out and >> make sure >> you can do the work, then I might give him a few DAYS at $11/hr. >> and then >> revert to an honest pay scale if he wants to keep you... And this >> assumes >> that you don't have any references or much in the way of code >> samples to >> share. >> >> The real question then becomes 'how long is it going to take to >> get you up >> to speed?' If the guy is thinking several months, then you would >> clearly >> be >> foolish to accept that offer. If you don't respect yourself, no >> one else >> will either... And your getting 'up to speed' could take a very >> long time &
Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
apologies for keeping this thread open... From what I've gleaned, while the rate quoted to you may be low, it does sound like a transitionary rate and appropriate. Not that you're only worth it but because you sound very inexperienced in the market. What I mean by "inexperienced" is you have to ask if 30k is too low, and you also have another day job which sounds unrelated to your Flash/Flex work. So at this point, you may have to grab at what's offered. I'd recommend caution with this gig and make sure you're not tied to it too long. I'd look at it as a "paid internship" where you're basically getting your first "notch in your belt" as you change careers. If you haven't considered creating a portfolio for yourself, now is the time to build it. Don't put too much time into it and especially don't let it hold you in "almost done" limbo. A list of skills, a gallery of projects completed (even student and/or "lame" ones), and contact info are all you need at this stage. In the meantime, begin to look around your area and find out where the "real" Flash/Flex work is (studios, ad agencies, internet companies). Begin to make contacts. Let them know who you are and you're availability. Part of making $50/hr (& much more) isn't always about making a decent rate like everyone else does. It's often about having multiple potential clients needing your help and willing to pay for it. And each project you build adds more and more "pre-made" pieces you have for the next gig. Those "pre-built" pieces are there to save your client time, but still make you $$ - another foundation for why we can make much more $$ per hour. It'll take time to build up your rate, so focus on the first steps: do a good job with your first gig, get your portfolio up, and get in touch with the proper market. good luck =) -radley On Jun 20, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Tristan wrote: Well said. I agree. I'll test the waters and jump out if it's not working. I'm still keeping my day job until I'm satisfied with coming on full time. Although, now that missiles are being tossed our way, maybe I should just be happy to be alive! Geez, I hope someday we all get along. Life's too short as it is. Sorry, off topic comment but, I just heard about it and it's scary not for just usa but, for the whole world. Love, T On 6/20/06, Kevin Mulvihill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > $11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think > they can pay developers peanuts Here, here. Denver is a big city comparable to L.A., where I am. And in this city, bag boys at grocery stores are making $11/hr. Even way back in '97 when I was in my last corporate job, it was costing us $15/hr. just to have a temp come in and put papers in a filing cabinet. Is that how you see yourself? As unskilled labor??? Now if the idea is just that the guy wants to check you out and make sure you can do the work, then I might give him a few DAYS at $11/hr. and then revert to an honest pay scale if he wants to keep you... And this assumes that you don't have any references or much in the way of code samples to share. The real question then becomes 'how long is it going to take to get you up to speed?' If the guy is thinking several months, then you would clearly be foolish to accept that offer. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will either... And your getting 'up to speed' could take a very long time indeed. Kevin ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com -- Radley Marx [EMAIL PROTECTED] 310.220.4088 http://www.radleymarx.com -- ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
Well said. I agree. I'll test the waters and jump out if it's not working. I'm still keeping my day job until I'm satisfied with coming on full time. Although, now that missiles are being tossed our way, maybe I should just be happy to be alive! Geez, I hope someday we all get along. Life's too short as it is. Sorry, off topic comment but, I just heard about it and it's scary not for just usa but, for the whole world. Love, T On 6/20/06, Kevin Mulvihill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > $11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think > they can pay developers peanuts Here, here. Denver is a big city comparable to L.A., where I am. And in this city, bag boys at grocery stores are making $11/hr. Even way back in '97 when I was in my last corporate job, it was costing us $15/hr. just to have a temp come in and put papers in a filing cabinet. Is that how you see yourself? As unskilled labor??? Now if the idea is just that the guy wants to check you out and make sure you can do the work, then I might give him a few DAYS at $11/hr. and then revert to an honest pay scale if he wants to keep you... And this assumes that you don't have any references or much in the way of code samples to share. The real question then becomes 'how long is it going to take to get you up to speed?' If the guy is thinking several months, then you would clearly be foolish to accept that offer. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will either... And your getting 'up to speed' could take a very long time indeed. Kevin ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
> $11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think > they can pay developers peanuts Here, here. Denver is a big city comparable to L.A., where I am. And in this city, bag boys at grocery stores are making $11/hr. Even way back in '97 when I was in my last corporate job, it was costing us $15/hr. just to have a temp come in and put papers in a filing cabinet. Is that how you see yourself? As unskilled labor??? Now if the idea is just that the guy wants to check you out and make sure you can do the work, then I might give him a few DAYS at $11/hr. and then revert to an honest pay scale if he wants to keep you... And this assumes that you don't have any references or much in the way of code samples to share. The real question then becomes 'how long is it going to take to get you up to speed?' If the guy is thinking several months, then you would clearly be foolish to accept that offer. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will either... And your getting 'up to speed' could take a very long time indeed. Kevin ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
You get what you pay for. You earn what you ask for. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of David Brunswick > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 10:09 AM > To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' > Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > > $11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think > they can pay developers peanuts > > David Brunswick > Multimedia Developer/OLP Administrator > FedEx Customer Information Services > Customer Service Organizational Learning > 901-434-6605 ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
$11/ hr accepting that is part of the reason why people think they can pay developers peanuts David Brunswick Multimedia Developer/OLP Administrator FedEx Customer Information Services Customer Service Organizational Learning 901-434-6605 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tristan Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 11:47 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? So, is there anyone in colorado that could give me some feedback on what they make? I looked on monster and in the 75th percentile minimum for just about any job is 50K+ $. Also, he wants to pay me 11$ an hour to get "up to speed". I think this guy is totally ripping me off but, it's worth the experience. Thanks for your input. >I'm pretty sure I can guess which currency and country Being a smartass is not cool, no? If not, my apologies. It's a mistake that anyone from any country would make. Let's just not go there. On 6/20/06, Tristan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Anyone give me some insight on what category to pick. There are so many. > > I'm currently looking in Internet and New Media > > http://monster.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_titleselect.asp?na rrowdesc=Internet+and+New+Media&narrowcode=IT02&zipcode=80209&metrocode=&x=6 6&y=16 > > > > On 6/20/06, Tristan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Ok, denver colorado > > > > > > On 6/20/06, Robert Chyko <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > > > > All depends on location > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of > > > Tristan > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 11:47 AM > > > To: Flashcoders mailing list > > > Subject: [Flashcoders] Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > > > > > > > > > Does 30-55K a year sound right with benefits for a junior developer? I > > > > > > have > > > a college degree and an extensive IT background but, I'm just now > > > getting > > > into a professional job environment developing but, I have been using > > > flash > > > for some time now. 30K sounds wa too low, would you agree? If > > > someone > > > had 2-3 years experience, what should a flash/flex developer get? What > > > > > > should they start at? > > > > > > Thanks > > > T > > > ___ > > > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > > > To change your subscription options or search the archive: > > > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > > > > > > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software > > > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training > > > http://www.figleaf.com > > > http://training.figleaf.com > > > ___ > > > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > > > To change your subscription options or search the archive: > > > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > > > > > > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software > > > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training > > > http://www.figleaf.com > > > http://training.figleaf.com > > > > > > > > ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
If you think he's ripping you off, he probably is. Jason Merrill Bank of America Learning and Organization Effectiveness Learning Technology Solutions ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] OT: Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary?
So, is there anyone in colorado that could give me some feedback on what they make? I looked on monster and in the 75th percentile minimum for just about any job is 50K+ $. Also, he wants to pay me 11$ an hour to get "up to speed". I think this guy is totally ripping me off but, it's worth the experience. Thanks for your input. I'm pretty sure I can guess which currency and country Being a smartass is not cool, no? If not, my apologies. It's a mistake that anyone from any country would make. Let's just not go there. On 6/20/06, Tristan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Anyone give me some insight on what category to pick. There are so many. I'm currently looking in Internet and New Media http://monster.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_titleselect.asp?narrowdesc=Internet+and+New+Media&narrowcode=IT02&zipcode=80209&metrocode=&x=66&y=16 On 6/20/06, Tristan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ok, denver colorado > > > On 6/20/06, Robert Chyko <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > > All depends on location > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of > > Tristan > > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 11:47 AM > > To: Flashcoders mailing list > > Subject: [Flashcoders] Junior Developer Flash/Flex Salary? > > > > > > Does 30-55K a year sound right with benefits for a junior developer? I > > > > have > > a college degree and an extensive IT background but, I'm just now > > getting > > into a professional job environment developing but, I have been using > > flash > > for some time now. 30K sounds wa too low, would you agree? If > > someone > > had 2-3 years experience, what should a flash/flex developer get? What > > > > should they start at? > > > > Thanks > > T > > ___ > > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > > To change your subscription options or search the archive: > > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > > > > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software > > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training > > http://www.figleaf.com > > http://training.figleaf.com > > ___ > > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > > To change your subscription options or search the archive: > > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > > > > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software > > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training > > http://www.figleaf.com > > http://training.figleaf.com > > > > ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
