Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
John, You forgot to tell us what happened with the polecat ! Ed K5RJI On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:56 AM, John Brosnahan -- W0UN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 26-06-08 10:22, you wrote: > >Hi Guys, > > > >I have been following this thread with some interest because I > >occasionally experience this problem with the SDR-1000. Since the > >problem seems not to occur on the IC-7000, I made a couple of > >measurements. I have my paddles connected through the key port on the > >SDR and not through the com port. The current through the contacts on > >the SDR-1000 is 4.9 mA. The current through the contacts on the IC-7000 > >is 0.2 mA. Since the oxidation problem would occur with a lower current > >and the current through contacts on the IC-7000 is much less than the > >current through the contacts on the SDR-1000 and the problem does not > >occur on the IC-7000, I have concluded that the problem is not oxidation > >. The debounce scenario is probably more likely. One can debounce the > >paddle contacts either in hardware or software. I have used a very > >reliable hardware debounce circuit for years that uses a one shot, a > >flip flop, and an inverter. I will be glad to forward this circuit to > >anyone who is interested. I have verified that a transistor closure > >will work just fine for the SDR-1000. > >I appologise for the length of this post > > > >73,Tom W0IVJ > > > Hi, Tom-- > > No need to apologize on MY account. Your post has real-world data > and is very interesting. Thanks for adding it to the debate database. > > My personal paddle problem (still need to see if I can find it) was > that there was no conductivity at low voltages between the support > post and the actual contact. Any inspection would seem to indicate > that they were solidly attached mechanically and should be > electrically as well. And they were at 9V but not at 1.5 volts! > > I once had a similar problem making a fixed antenna that was designed > to mount on a mobile whip base. I machined an round aluminum solid > bar to the proper diameter to fit into the actual antenna element -- > a 20M 1/4 wave vertical. The I drilled and tapped a 3/8-32 hole for > a standard mobile mount threaded stud. I then made the mistake of > deciding to use a cyanoacrylate (super glue) to make sure it was held > tight and would not vibrate loose -- basically Loc-Tite. But then I > decided to check the resistance between the stud and the aluminum > rod. It was open circuit. Those pesky little molecules of > cyanoacrylate managed to wick into every molecular size hole and > insulate the stud from the rod. I was really PO-ed big time! > > Certainly the debounce issue is the most likely culprit for much of > the erratic sending, but probably not the answer if you push the > paddle closed for a dot or dash and get nothing. It would be > interesting to see a study of the bounce times of various paddles. > > And I would certainly be interested in any hardware debounce circuit > you have, so if you don't mind and it is easy to do, please email me > a copy directly. [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Thanks -- John W0UN > > > > ___ > FlexRadio Systems Mailing List > FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz > http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ > Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: > http://www.flex-radio.com/ > > ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
At 26-06-08 10:22, you wrote: >Hi Guys, > >I have been following this thread with some interest because I >occasionally experience this problem with the SDR-1000. Since the >problem seems not to occur on the IC-7000, I made a couple of >measurements. I have my paddles connected through the key port on the >SDR and not through the com port. The current through the contacts on >the SDR-1000 is 4.9 mA. The current through the contacts on the IC-7000 >is 0.2 mA. Since the oxidation problem would occur with a lower current >and the current through contacts on the IC-7000 is much less than the >current through the contacts on the SDR-1000 and the problem does not >occur on the IC-7000, I have concluded that the problem is not oxidation >. The debounce scenario is probably more likely. One can debounce the >paddle contacts either in hardware or software. I have used a very >reliable hardware debounce circuit for years that uses a one shot, a >flip flop, and an inverter. I will be glad to forward this circuit to >anyone who is interested. I have verified that a transistor closure >will work just fine for the SDR-1000. >I appologise for the length of this post > >73,Tom W0IVJ Hi, Tom-- No need to apologize on MY account. Your post has real-world data and is very interesting. Thanks for adding it to the debate database. My personal paddle problem (still need to see if I can find it) was that there was no conductivity at low voltages between the support post and the actual contact. Any inspection would seem to indicate that they were solidly attached mechanically and should be electrically as well. And they were at 9V but not at 1.5 volts! I once had a similar problem making a fixed antenna that was designed to mount on a mobile whip base. I machined an round aluminum solid bar to the proper diameter to fit into the actual antenna element -- a 20M 1/4 wave vertical. The I drilled and tapped a 3/8-32 hole for a standard mobile mount threaded stud. I then made the mistake of deciding to use a cyanoacrylate (super glue) to make sure it was held tight and would not vibrate loose -- basically Loc-Tite. But then I decided to check the resistance between the stud and the aluminum rod. It was open circuit. Those pesky little molecules of cyanoacrylate managed to wick into every molecular size hole and insulate the stud from the rod. I was really PO-ed big time! Certainly the debounce issue is the most likely culprit for much of the erratic sending, but probably not the answer if you push the paddle closed for a dot or dash and get nothing. It would be interesting to see a study of the bounce times of various paddles. And I would certainly be interested in any hardware debounce circuit you have, so if you don't mind and it is easy to do, please email me a copy directly. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks -- John W0UN ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
Hi Guys, I have been following this thread with some interest because I occasionally experience this problem with the SDR-1000. Since the problem seems not to occur on the IC-7000, I made a couple of measurements. I have my paddles connected through the key port on the SDR and not through the com port. The current through the contacts on the SDR-1000 is 4.9 mA. The current through the contacts on the IC-7000 is 0.2 mA. Since the oxidation problem would occur with a lower current and the current through contacts on the IC-7000 is much less than the current through the contacts on the SDR-1000 and the problem does not occur on the IC-7000, I have concluded that the problem is not oxidation . The debounce scenario is probably more likely. One can debounce the paddle contacts either in hardware or software. I have used a very reliable hardware debounce circuit for years that uses a one shot, a flip flop, and an inverter. I will be glad to forward this circuit to anyone who is interested. I have verified that a transistor closure will work just fine for the SDR-1000. In software if polling is used to debounce a switch, the program should sample the switch closure and set a timer if the switch appears to be closed. When the timer expires, if the switch is still closed then a valid closure is flagged. With interrupts, the switch closure triggers an interrupt. The interrupt routine sets a timer. When the timer interrupt occurs, if the switch is still closed, then a valid closure is flagged. The timers in software or the one shot duration in hardware has to bridge the bouncing time of the contacts. With a single switch closure this generally is not a problem. You just set the time to be very long as compared to the bouncing time of the switch. With multiple switch closures, the problem becomes more difficult because the bounce timer must be long enough to bridge the contact bouncing but short enough to be ready for the next contact closure. At an upper limit of 60 wpm on CW assuming 5 characters per word, there will be 300 switch closures per minute or one closure per 200 milliseconds. The bounce time of a typical switch is of the order of 10 to 20 milliseconds. This factor of ten generally is enough for a hardware debounce circuit. A software debouncer may run into trouble depending on the processor speed or the interrupt latency time. On the SDR-1000, this debounce must be handled with Windows code. On the SDR-5000 it could be handled in the firmware. If the timer, whether in software or hardware, is set too short, and the bouncing is still happening when the timer expires, the state of the switch could be in either state when sampled the second time. If the switch is in the open state when the time expires the switch closure will be missed. With paddles on CW, you can hold the paddle closed indefinitely and nothing will happen. As soon as you release the paddle, you get another chance on the next closure, thus the randomness of the problem. I appologise for the length of this post 73,Tom W0IVJ Lee Mushel wrote: >Working at Hamlin in the sixties I remember well the problems of dry >contacts. I think that all we have to do is convince Gerald to put a 6C4 >in the Flex5000 close to the mike jack and wire it in the cathode circuit of >the triode. Probably get rid of all the complaints. Or you can do like I >did and buy the conditioning cable! > >Lee K9WRU >- Original Message - >From: "Ahti Aintila" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Jim Lux" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Cc: "Art Gartner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 2:59 AM >Subject: Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000 > > > > >>On 26/06/2008, Jim Lux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >>>>The key words when working with relays are debouncing, contact >>>>"wetting" currents and contamination control of contact materials. >>>>Contrary to the common belief, silver is not the best material for low >>>>voltage contacts (<24 V) due to the high breakover voltage of the >>>>naturally developing silver oxide and silver sulphide layers. Gold >>>>works much better with low voltages and low wetting currents, but is >>>>suspectible to mechanical wear. Use vacuum protected read relay >>>>contacts whenever applicable. >>>> >>>> >>>I hadn't ever thought about it before, but devising a rock solid >>>interface to any sort of contacts that someone might hook up to it is >>>quite an engineering challenge. Usually, you're designing for some >>>small subset, or you actually get to pick the contacts. >>> >>>I'd guess that you
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
At 06:38 AM 6/26/2008, you wrote: >maybe if you plated the skunk with silver. > >73 W9OY > Platinum is the ultimate in contact, it will not corrode when exposed to quite a few chemicals, medical instruments tend to use platinum for electrodes because they need ultra reliable connections, it's pricey buy so is gold. Cecil K5NWA www.softrockradio.org www.qrpradio.com "Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light." ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
Working at Hamlin in the sixties I remember well the problems of dry contacts. I think that all we have to do is convince Gerald to put a 6C4 in the Flex5000 close to the mike jack and wire it in the cathode circuit of the triode. Probably get rid of all the complaints. Or you can do like I did and buy the conditioning cable! Lee K9WRU - Original Message - From: "Ahti Aintila" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jim Lux" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Art Gartner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 2:59 AM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000 > On 26/06/2008, Jim Lux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> The key words when working with relays are debouncing, contact > >> "wetting" currents and contamination control of contact materials. > >> Contrary to the common belief, silver is not the best material for low > >> voltage contacts (<24 V) due to the high breakover voltage of the > >> naturally developing silver oxide and silver sulphide layers. Gold > >> works much better with low voltages and low wetting currents, but is > >> suspectible to mechanical wear. Use vacuum protected read relay > >> contacts whenever applicable. > > > > I hadn't ever thought about it before, but devising a rock solid > > interface to any sort of contacts that someone might hook up to it is > > quite an engineering challenge. Usually, you're designing for some > > small subset, or you actually get to pick the contacts. > > > > I'd guess that you want a fairly decent voltage (12Vish) with a decent > > current (10mA), but your input circuit also needs to tolerate > > transient voltages, etc. > > > > Something like an Optoisolator diode with an optional pullup > > (which is what they use on a lot of industrial PLCs). That would give > > you galvanic isolation, too, which is nice. > > > > Jim > > > Jim, > Optoisolator is a good solution, but even those need some kind of > debouncing circuitry, as well as reed relays (sorry for my earlier > mispelling: "read relay"!). > > Ahti > > ___ > FlexRadio Systems Mailing List > FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz > http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ > Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ > > ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
maybe if you plated the skunk with silver. 73 W9OY ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
Quoting Ahti Aintila <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on Thu 26 Jun 2008 12:59:31 AM PDT: > On 26/06/2008, Jim Lux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> The key words when working with relays are debouncing, contact >>> "wetting" currents and contamination control of contact materials. >>> Contrary to the common belief, silver is not the best material for low >>> voltage contacts (<24 V) due to the high breakover voltage of the >>> naturally developing silver oxide and silver sulphide layers. Gold >>> works much better with low voltages and low wetting currents, but is >>> suspectible to mechanical wear. Use vacuum protected read relay >>> contacts whenever applicable. >> >> I hadn't ever thought about it before, but devising a rock solid >> interface to any sort of contacts that someone might hook up to it is >> quite an engineering challenge. Usually, you're designing for some >> small subset, or you actually get to pick the contacts. >> >> I'd guess that you want a fairly decent voltage (12Vish) with a decent >> current (10mA), but your input circuit also needs to tolerate >> transient voltages, etc. >> >> Something like an Optoisolator diode with an optional pullup >> (which is what they use on a lot of industrial PLCs). That would give >> you galvanic isolation, too, which is nice. >> >> Jim >> > Jim, > Optoisolator is a good solution, but even those need some kind of > debouncing circuitry, as well as reed relays (sorry for my earlier > mispelling: "read relay"!). Of course... I assume one does most of that in software or programmable logic, as opposed to with the electrical interface. Although.. that 0.1 uF capacitor can do a lot of good Jim ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
> > John I think you're on the right track but the oxide could >be due to different paddle contact metals. Someone reported a similar >problem with a Begali paddle but I cannot find the reference for this >at the moment. Piero once used some odd alloy for his standard paddle >contacts. The only permanent solution was to swap paddle contacts with >the optional gold contacts. I don't know what the alloy was but I see >he has now switched to silver for his standard contacts. I have a Begali >paddle with the old contact material but I've never had any problems >using a Logikey K-1, so it may also be a function of the keyer. I do >treat my contacts once annually with Caig De-Oxit just as a precaution. > > 73, Bill W4ZV Hi, Bill-- FWIW-- My best guess is that there are a combination of effects going on here. 1) Some software/firmware issues that need to be resolved. 2) Possibly some hardware issues associated with very the low voltage/current signals that need to be keyed. 3) Paddle contact resistance that is not consistently low between various manufacturers' products, models, and contact materials. 4) Occasional issues with RFI that are also adding to the confusion in symptoms. 5) The contact pressure and material(s) of the key JACK and PLUG may also be a factor in all of this. 6) And maybe something we haven't even thought about yet. The problem with contact oxidation on the Dow-Key T-shaped T/R relays we were using was a slight oxidation on the GOLD contacts. I know silver oxide is still a good conductor but I do not know how it compares with gold oxide. What I do know is that silver tends to become more "ugly" with time whereas gold does not "age" in appearance as rapidly. So the question becomes whether gold is chosen for its performance after it oxidizes or chosen for its aesthetics over longer periods of time compared to silver. I don't know the answer and I am too lazy to look it up since someone probably already knows this of the top of his head. And because I have better things to do with my time this morning! ;-) I set out a trap for a skunk last night and just checked and the skunk is in there. That was Step 1 of the plan. Unfortunately Step 2 of the plan was never properly developed and now I have to figure out what to do with an unhappy and trapped skunk that will reduce the chance that the HOUSE, the adjoining LAND, and ME from getting sprayed this morning. ;-) If no one hears from me later today that means that my wife won't let me back into the house because of skunk smell. One THEORY says that I should spray down the area with water as I approach the skunk so that if he DOES spray I can use the spray/mist to help flush the smell from the air. But then this is my OWN theory and may be worth even less than my thoughts on the paddle contacts! WISH ME LUCK! I'M GOING IN! Well, I will as soon as it gets light enough to see which way the skunk is pointing! --John W0UN ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
W0UN: >What I think is happening to you is the same sort of thing. There is such a low voltage across the contacts that any sort of oxide film prevents making a good contact. For a test try cutting a thin strip of a 3x5 file card and insert it between the contacts and press the contacts closed with some force on the paper and then pull the paper out to see if the problem goes away -- at least for the moment. If it does that will indicate a thin film of oxide is building up on the contacts and the logic voltages are too low to break down the film. >The second test is a bit more difficult but would be very interesting. I have been very happy with the contact cleaner called Pro-Gold from Caig Labs. It is an organic cleaner that leaves a very thin film that prevents future oxide build up. The contact cleaner is used by NASA and I have found it to be excellent in low-level signal paths. The stuff is not cheap and it appears to be no longer available through RadioShack so you have to go to a bit of trouble to find it. But it would be an interesting test of the theory and the contact cleaner to see if it worked in this application. Although I am not claiming this to be a permanent fix either. John I think you're on the right track but the oxide could be due to different paddle contact metals. Someone reported a similar problem with a Begali paddle but I cannot find the reference for this at the moment. Piero once used some odd alloy for his standard paddle contacts. The only permanent solution was to swap paddle contacts with the optional gold contacts. I don't know what the alloy was but I see he has now switched to silver for his standard contacts. I have a Begali paddle with the old contact material but I've never had any problems using a Logikey K-1, so it may also be a function of the keyer. I do treat my contacts once annually with Caig De-Oxit just as a precaution. 73, Bill W4ZV ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
On 26/06/2008, Jim Lux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> The key words when working with relays are debouncing, contact >> "wetting" currents and contamination control of contact materials. >> Contrary to the common belief, silver is not the best material for low >> voltage contacts (<24 V) due to the high breakover voltage of the >> naturally developing silver oxide and silver sulphide layers. Gold >> works much better with low voltages and low wetting currents, but is >> suspectible to mechanical wear. Use vacuum protected read relay >> contacts whenever applicable. > > I hadn't ever thought about it before, but devising a rock solid > interface to any sort of contacts that someone might hook up to it is > quite an engineering challenge. Usually, you're designing for some > small subset, or you actually get to pick the contacts. > > I'd guess that you want a fairly decent voltage (12Vish) with a decent > current (10mA), but your input circuit also needs to tolerate > transient voltages, etc. > > Something like an Optoisolator diode with an optional pullup > (which is what they use on a lot of industrial PLCs). That would give > you galvanic isolation, too, which is nice. > > Jim > Jim, Optoisolator is a good solution, but even those need some kind of debouncing circuitry, as well as reed relays (sorry for my earlier mispelling: "read relay"!). Ahti ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
Quoting Ahti Aintila <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on Wed 25 Jun 2008 10:15:08 PM PDT: > On 26/06/2008, Jim Lux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> I don't have the F5K schematic, so I don't know what sort of >> conditioning or input circuit they use. >> > Jim gave a good list. I agree, SDR1k has a pretty reliable contact > interface. Read also this: http://www.vias.org/feee/switches_03.html > This gives the basic understanding to the designers of > electromechanical contacts and the designers of interface between > contacts and electronic circuits. > > The key words when working with relays are debouncing, contact > "wetting" currents and contamination control of contact materials. > Contrary to the common belief, silver is not the best material for low > voltage contacts (<24 V) due to the high breakover voltage of the > naturally developing silver oxide and silver sulphide layers. Gold > works much better with low voltages and low wetting currents, but is > suspectible to mechanical wear. Use vacuum protected read relay > contacts whenever applicable. I hadn't ever thought about it before, but devising a rock solid interface to any sort of contacts that someone might hook up to it is quite an engineering challenge. Usually, you're designing for some small subset, or you actually get to pick the contacts. I'd guess that you want a fairly decent voltage (12Vish) with a decent current (10mA), but your input circuit also needs to tolerate transient voltages, etc. Something like an Optoisolator diode with an optional pullup (which is what they use on a lot of industrial PLCs). That would give you galvanic isolation, too, which is nice. Jim ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
On 26/06/2008, Jim Lux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One should also distinguish between problems in the software running > in the PC (which your problem almost certainly is not) and the > firmware running inside the 5000 (which actually does the interface > to the key and debounces it, turning it into MIDI note messages) or > the hardware interface in the 5000 from the key to the microcontroller. > > This kind of thing is *hard* to make work universally, since there > are a plethora of contact closure devices out there. Even when you > control the hardware for something as simple as a keypad on a piece > of equipment, it can take a while to get it right. > > As noted, it might be an electrical issue (contact resistance, amount > of current or voltage, etc.), although, one would think, given the > enormous number of solid state keyers out there, that the interface > circuitry is pretty standardized by now. So, it might be a subtle > timing thing in the firmware (which is closed source for regulatory > reasons) and is difficult to reliably reproduce (I'm pretty sure that > the folks at flex tried a bunch of different keys and keyers on it). > > It could even be a RF interference thing (I assume you've tried it > running the rig into a dummy load, though). > > The original SDR1000 used a network with a 1K pullup to 5V, a 16K > pulldown to ground, with a 0.1 uF cap and a forward biased diode > across the 16K feeding a 74HC14 Schmitt trigger, which then fed the > parallel printer port (a LS245 or LS374, typically) and using one of > the lines as an interrupt input. > > So, on the SDR1K, you'd have about 0.7V across the open circuit > contacts, and about 5mA current when closed. The time constant is on > the order of 100 microseconds. > > I don't recall, off hand, what sort of software debouncing is done in > PowerSDR for the SDR1K. > > > I don't have the F5K schematic, so I don't know what sort of > conditioning or input circuit they use. > Jim gave a good list. I agree, SDR1k has a pretty reliable contact interface. Read also this: http://www.vias.org/feee/switches_03.html This gives the basic understanding to the designers of electromechanical contacts and the designers of interface between contacts and electronic circuits. The key words when working with relays are debouncing, contact "wetting" currents and contamination control of contact materials. Contrary to the common belief, silver is not the best material for low voltage contacts (<24 V) due to the high breakover voltage of the naturally developing silver oxide and silver sulphide layers. Gold works much better with low voltages and low wetting currents, but is suspectible to mechanical wear. Use vacuum protected read relay contacts whenever applicable. Ahti OH2RZ > ___ > FlexRadio Systems Mailing List > FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz > http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ > Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: > http://www.flex-radio.com/ > > ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
At 25-06-08 19:45, Jay Sewell wrote: >John, > >I fully understand and feel your approach is sound. I didn't mean >to imply otherwise. Wouldn't it be great if this were the cause and >the problem could then be perhaps easily addressed? It would >certainly be very useful to know one way or the other. Guys-- When a problem is complex and little progress has been made to resolve the issues I like to break it down into the smallest incremental steps. Since Art has one paddle that always works and one paddle that is intermittent and yet the rest of the setup remains the same it would seem that at least PART of the problem is within the differences in the setup. Since the only differences are the cables (which could also be swapped) and the paddles themselves, it would be instrumental to look at the very smallest possible increment -- that of the dash contact on the one paddle that malfunctions to see if contact cleaner has any effect. I think the issues are much greater than just this one item -- hence the failure to find a workable solution so far. But it will be instructional to isolate each of the different issues to understand the entire problem. NOTE: This section will not be satisfying because I cannot recall which paddle it is that I have that has a similar issue. It does not reliably key ANY rig, but checking with an ohmmeter that utilizes a 9 volt battery it ohms OK. But if I use one of the meters than only has a small voltage across the probes the closed contact looks open. I spoke with the manufacturer many years ago (late 1990s) and he knew of the issue and it was a function of how he was mounting the contact material. And there is a fix -- but I got sidetracked and never got around to requesting the fix and now the details are a bit foggy. But I may add this to my "to do" list. You might ask how I could forget such an important thing? Well, 1) I have a lot of keys and paddles, 2) I was very busy during my time as president of Alpha/Power, and 3) I ended up having open-heart surgery and then moved to Texas and much of the stuff is still packed away! So it slipped through the cracks. The GOOD NEWS is that discussion reminds me of the problem and maybe I can get the paddle fixed before the company goes out of business or I go Silent Key.;-) It is my feeling that PART of the problem lies in the fact that as micro-electronics gets smaller and smaller the voltages get lower and lower and real world things like contact resistance start to become a problem. Then the issue is whether this needs to be corrected by lowering the resistance of the paddle contacts or by changing the circuitry to work with typical (real world) paddles. (Or both) But I also think there are probably other things going on with some of the keying issues like this that have been raised and that includes things like RFI, etc. I am just commenting on one small piece of the puzzle since I have first-hand knowledge of similar issues. But I am not commenting on things which would be entirely speculative on my part and with which I have had no experience. At the very least you get a peek into my scientific way of looking at things. Just remember -- This is not really a PROBLEM -- just an interesting technical PUZZLE that will be FUN to resolve! ;-)(I am a half-full kind of guy -- if you can't fix it, then feature it.) --John W0UN ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
You can try using the COM port to key the rig. I think the new contact material sometimes acts like a semiconductor instead of a conductor in some circuits. Pin 4 is common Pin 6 dit, Pin 8 dah. You can get the plug for a buck or so at Radio Shack. You set up the COM port under Setup/DSP/Keyer I use this port for my external keyer input. You can find the reference in the SDR-1000 manual around page 150 73 W9OY ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
At 05:45 PM 6/25/2008, Jay Sewell wrote: >John, > >I fully understand and feel your approach is sound. I didn't mean to imply >otherwise. Wouldn't it be great if this were the cause and the problem >could then be perhaps easily addressed? It would certainly be very useful >to know one way or the other. > >I have not understood, though, why my keys, which are types that seem to be >relatively commonly owned in the ham community, only cause this disruption >of keying in the 5000 and not in other rigs. Perhaps the other rigs have >a higher contact voltage/current that might explain that. I also don't >understand why more users have not noted this problem, or perhaps there are >some that have that are not discussing it or some who are using keys that >don't demonstrate it. One should also distinguish between problems in the software running in the PC (which your problem almost certainly is not) and the firmware running inside the 5000 (which actually does the interface to the key and debounces it, turning it into MIDI note messages) or the hardware interface in the 5000 from the key to the microcontroller. This kind of thing is *hard* to make work universally, since there are a plethora of contact closure devices out there. Even when you control the hardware for something as simple as a keypad on a piece of equipment, it can take a while to get it right. As noted, it might be an electrical issue (contact resistance, amount of current or voltage, etc.), although, one would think, given the enormous number of solid state keyers out there, that the interface circuitry is pretty standardized by now. So, it might be a subtle timing thing in the firmware (which is closed source for regulatory reasons) and is difficult to reliably reproduce (I'm pretty sure that the folks at flex tried a bunch of different keys and keyers on it). It could even be a RF interference thing (I assume you've tried it running the rig into a dummy load, though). The original SDR1000 used a network with a 1K pullup to 5V, a 16K pulldown to ground, with a 0.1 uF cap and a forward biased diode across the 16K feeding a 74HC14 Schmitt trigger, which then fed the parallel printer port (a LS245 or LS374, typically) and using one of the lines as an interrupt input. So, on the SDR1K, you'd have about 0.7V across the open circuit contacts, and about 5mA current when closed. The time constant is on the order of 100 microseconds. I don't recall, off hand, what sort of software debouncing is done in PowerSDR for the SDR1K. I don't have the F5K schematic, so I don't know what sort of conditioning or input circuit they use. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
John, I fully understand and feel your approach is sound. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Wouldn't it be great if this were the cause and the problem could then be perhaps easily addressed? It would certainly be very useful to know one way or the other. I have not understood, though, why my keys, which are types that seem to be relatively commonly owned in the ham community, only cause this disruption of keying in the 5000 and not in other rigs. Perhaps the other rigs have a higher contact voltage/current that might explain that. I also don't understand why more users have not noted this problem, or perhaps there are some that have that are not discussing it or some who are using keys that don't demonstrate it. Unfortunately, you may have caught me at a time when I have developed a very strong sensation that the folks at Flex seem to be ignoring this problem while it seems to represent to me a basic flaw in an otherwise potentially good system. It seems to be one that should in my humble opinion be addressed before some other problems since it is a very basic function of a ham radio to key CW properly. In retrospect, my venting led me to bring in some other possibly unrelated flaws I have noted and I apologize for doing that in this thread. And I suppose I am venting my frustration and concern because after spending an inordinate amount of time worrying and fiddling with this defective keying coupled with the other flaws, I am having to set the radio aside for now, while I wait for an undetermined time for fixes to occur, and because I am not getting much value out of it, and because I have a growing realization that I have apparently bought an experimental radio rather than one that is polished enough to enjoy using on a daily basis. John, thanks for your ideas. 73, Jay - Original Message - From: "John Brosnahan -- W0UN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jay Sewell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Art Gartner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000 > At 25-06-08 12:57, Jay Sewell wrote: >>Hi John and Art. >> >>I've read your description of the problem, Art, and I have read the ideas >>presented by John. I would like to comment on this situation based on my >>own experience. My Flex5000A was new in March. >> >>I would like to know the experience of others in this regard >> >>I understand the logic of what John is presenting. The things you discuss >>may well be a factor to some degree with this problem with keying, but my >>observations seem to indicate this isn't the problem, or at least not the >>whole problem. > > > Hi, Jay-- > > I was more interested in offering a test to better understand the issues > rather than offering any sort of long-term solution. > > Since one of Art's paddles has occasional problems and one does not it > would be informative to see if the issue is just a matter of contact > resistance due to oxidation. If the contact cleaner solves the problem, > even only on the short term, it would suggest that some keys have higher > contact resistance or are more susceptible to contact oxidation than > others and a more permanent fix for this specific issue should be pursued > such as higher contact voltage/current to help get through the molecular > lever oxidation. > > If in fact this does not solve the problem on the short term, then there > clearly other factors are at work and need to be addressed. > > My idea was just a first step in trying to get to the root of the problem, > rather than a fix. > > --John W0UN > > ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
At 25-06-08 12:57, Jay Sewell wrote: >Hi John and Art. > >I've read your description of the problem, Art, and I have read the >ideas presented by John. I would like to comment on this situation >based on my own experience. My Flex5000A was new in March. > >I would like to know the experience of others in this regard > >I understand the logic of what John is presenting. The things you >discuss may well be a factor to some degree with this problem with >keying, but my observations seem to indicate this isn't the problem, >or at least not the whole problem. Hi, Jay-- I was more interested in offering a test to better understand the issues rather than offering any sort of long-term solution. Since one of Art's paddles has occasional problems and one does not it would be informative to see if the issue is just a matter of contact resistance due to oxidation. If the contact cleaner solves the problem, even only on the short term, it would suggest that some keys have higher contact resistance or are more susceptible to contact oxidation than others and a more permanent fix for this specific issue should be pursued such as higher contact voltage/current to help get through the molecular lever oxidation. If in fact this does not solve the problem on the short term, then there clearly other factors are at work and need to be addressed. My idea was just a first step in trying to get to the root of the problem, rather than a fix. --John W0UN ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
in a reasonable time. I suppose this problem with the CAT control may be beyond the basic keying problem that Art and others have described, but just the same it may somehow be related and since it is problem with keying may indicate that the problem could be more related to software flaws than to the oxide on the key contacts. I would like to hear about the experience of others Jay W5SL - Original Message - From: "John Brosnahan -- W0UN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Art Gartner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000 > >> >>-Original Message- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Art Gartner >>Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:06 AM >>To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz >>Subject: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000 >> >>I just got a new P4 paddle from K8RA. About every once in awhile the >>dah paddle does not make a connection, i.e. I get nothing out. My >>Vibroplex works fine. I thought it might be the cable so I switched >>cables. Same results. I unchecked iambic to just manually key the >>transmitter and the same trouble. Vibroplex okay, P4 problems. Has >>anyone had problems like this with a specific paddle? BTW the P4 is >>a large hunk of brass, makes the Vibroplex look like crud. >> >>Art, KA4M > > > Hi, Art-- > > I am interested in your results and have a couple of little tests > that I hope you can possibly make. > > We used to see the same sort of thing with Dow-Key relays used in a > series of delay lines for a radio astronomy experiment. You could > clean the contacts and everything was fine for a time. But after a > few days or a few weeks, the following effect started happening. You > would still see the HF/VHF "signals" from the radio astronomy > antennas but the phase delays would no longer be correct. Turns out > gold oxide would form on the contacts and was a molecule thick and > the relays were no longer making good contact. But you would still > have signals because there was capacitance between the contacts that > coupled the signals through but also added phase shift due to the > series reactance of that capacitance. All you would have to do was > to wipe a strip of paper between the contacts and everything would be > OK for a few days or weeks. But then the problem would show up > again. The real issue was that the contacts were not designed to > "wipe" properly and microvolt-level signals were not enough to break > down this one-molecule layer of oxide. We fixed the problem by > running the 12 volt DC voltage to the preamps through the relays > rather than injecting the preamp power AFTER the relays. And > ultimately we replaced the entire Dow-Key relay system with some > special mercury relays that forever solved the problem. These > Dow-Key relays had gold contacts and were the typical "ham-type" > T-shaped relays used for decades for transmit/receive switching. > > What I think is happening to you is the same sort of thing. There is > such a low voltage across the contacts that any sort of oxide film > prevents making a good contact. For a test try cutting a thin strip > of a 3x5 file card and insert it between the contacts and press the > contacts closed with some force on the paper and then pull the paper > out to see if the problem goes away -- at least for the moment. If > it does that will indicate a thin film of oxide is building up on the > contacts and the logic voltages are too low to break down the film. > > The second test is a bit more difficult but would be very > interesting. I have been very happy with the contact cleaner called > Pro-Gold from Caig Labs. It is an organic cleaner that leaves a very > thin film that prevents future oxide build up. The contact cleaner > is used by NASA and I have found it to be excellent in low-level > signal paths. The stuff is not cheap and it appears to be no longer > available through RadioShack so you have to go to a bit of trouble to > find it. But it would be an interesting test of the theory and the > contact cleaner to see if it worked in this application. Although I > am not claiming this to be a permanent fix either. > > But then you must understand that I am a research physicist and > really ENJOY doing little experiments like this! Maybe one of your > friends in the local area has some of the Caig Labs Pro-Gold and can > loan you a "squirt" of the stuff. Not saying it will be a "forever" > permanent fix but it would be interesting to identify if the oxide > cleaning properties of the Caig Labs cle
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
> >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Art Gartner >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:06 AM >To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz >Subject: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000 > >I just got a new P4 paddle from K8RA. About every once in awhile the >dah paddle does not make a connection, i.e. I get nothing out. My >Vibroplex works fine. I thought it might be the cable so I switched >cables. Same results. I unchecked iambic to just manually key the >transmitter and the same trouble. Vibroplex okay, P4 problems. Has >anyone had problems like this with a specific paddle? BTW the P4 is >a large hunk of brass, makes the Vibroplex look like crud. > >Art, KA4M Hi, Art-- I am interested in your results and have a couple of little tests that I hope you can possibly make. We used to see the same sort of thing with Dow-Key relays used in a series of delay lines for a radio astronomy experiment. You could clean the contacts and everything was fine for a time. But after a few days or a few weeks, the following effect started happening. You would still see the HF/VHF "signals" from the radio astronomy antennas but the phase delays would no longer be correct. Turns out gold oxide would form on the contacts and was a molecule thick and the relays were no longer making good contact. But you would still have signals because there was capacitance between the contacts that coupled the signals through but also added phase shift due to the series reactance of that capacitance. All you would have to do was to wipe a strip of paper between the contacts and everything would be OK for a few days or weeks. But then the problem would show up again. The real issue was that the contacts were not designed to "wipe" properly and microvolt-level signals were not enough to break down this one-molecule layer of oxide. We fixed the problem by running the 12 volt DC voltage to the preamps through the relays rather than injecting the preamp power AFTER the relays. And ultimately we replaced the entire Dow-Key relay system with some special mercury relays that forever solved the problem. These Dow-Key relays had gold contacts and were the typical "ham-type" T-shaped relays used for decades for transmit/receive switching. What I think is happening to you is the same sort of thing. There is such a low voltage across the contacts that any sort of oxide film prevents making a good contact. For a test try cutting a thin strip of a 3x5 file card and insert it between the contacts and press the contacts closed with some force on the paper and then pull the paper out to see if the problem goes away -- at least for the moment. If it does that will indicate a thin film of oxide is building up on the contacts and the logic voltages are too low to break down the film. The second test is a bit more difficult but would be very interesting. I have been very happy with the contact cleaner called Pro-Gold from Caig Labs. It is an organic cleaner that leaves a very thin film that prevents future oxide build up. The contact cleaner is used by NASA and I have found it to be excellent in low-level signal paths. The stuff is not cheap and it appears to be no longer available through RadioShack so you have to go to a bit of trouble to find it. But it would be an interesting test of the theory and the contact cleaner to see if it worked in this application. Although I am not claiming this to be a permanent fix either. But then you must understand that I am a research physicist and really ENJOY doing little experiments like this! Maybe one of your friends in the local area has some of the Caig Labs Pro-Gold and can loan you a "squirt" of the stuff. Not saying it will be a "forever" permanent fix but it would be interesting to identify if the oxide cleaning properties of the Caig Labs cleaner has some effect on the problem. Good Luck -- John W0UN ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
See the following KB article. CW Paddles "Bounce" Issues with the FLEX-5000 http://kb.flex-radio.com/article.aspx?id=10487 -Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Art Gartner Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:06 AM To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000 I just got a new P4 paddle from K8RA. About every once in awhile the dah paddle does not make a connection, i.e. I get nothing out. My Vibroplex works fine. I thought it might be the cable so I switched cables. Same results. I unchecked iambic to just manually key the transmitter and the same trouble. Vibroplex okay, P4 problems. Has anyone had problems like this with a specific paddle? BTW the P4 is a large hunk of brass, makes the Vibroplex look like crud. Art, KA4M ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
[Flexradio] K8RA P4 Paddle with Flex5000
I just got a new P4 paddle from K8RA. About every once in awhile the dah paddle does not make a connection, i.e. I get nothing out. My Vibroplex works fine. I thought it might be the cable so I switched cables. Same results. I unchecked iambic to just manually key the transmitter and the same trouble. Vibroplex okay, P4 problems. Has anyone had problems like this with a specific paddle? BTW the P4 is a large hunk of brass, makes the Vibroplex look like crud. Art, KA4M ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
