Re: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff
Eric Ellison wrote: Now Gerald – K5SDR suggested on Teamspeak session a couple of weeks ago that we have separate Reflectors for the technospeak guys from the “new users” who might be ‘turned off by the jargon” and the ‘technospeak”…. I have mixed feelings about it. What do you think? This is ham radio, but also it is ham radio on the move and a new exciting ‘edge’ of technology. I don’t think we should be divided at this point. If you are a new ham and don’t have an interest in SVN-XYLO-SAXO-FPGA then punch up the next message. Personally I am currently bypassing most messages AM related. I don’t think NOW is the time to divide the momentum on this Reflector. Ham radio, just like this forum is a mixture of many interests. If you have an interest in “Snowbounce” Mike King – KM0T is here to answer your questions! He will see messages in that interest area. I have NEVER seen Bob – N4HY not respond to a message on Linux. It’s all a part of the future of ham radio! We are not ready to separate except in the ‘subject’ line! I think we over-use the reflector. For newer users, I think a forum format is better. Things lay out in a much more organized fashion. People can easily find five month old posts by topic. This is much more important for someone new who are less interested in what's currently under discussion than on topics that were probably covered (if they could but know it) six months ago. There's the manuals and any supplemental material we create as well. Even the archive of this is not an ideal way to find what you want. A real forum is going to be more focussed. Larry WO0Z
Re: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff
Eric E., Thanks for some very succinct explanations. Let me put forth a couple of concerns we have about how to best use the reflector and forum resources. Due to the nature of a "software" radio, we will always be releasing new beta software that will have bugs. The discussion on this reflector of "beta bugs" has been a huge source of confusion to new and potential customers. It gives the impression that the radio is unstable or unfinished. Five years from now this will still be an issue unless you the users and we the manufacturer have run out of good ideas. Somehow I doubt that. Our wish list is longer today than it was three years ago when we shipped serial number uno. We have thought of creating a "Beta and Experimental Reflector" to separate the discussion of the new and experimental stuff from that of the officially released software. It could potentially make it less intimidating to the new user and the potential customer. I agree that splitting the reflector could dilute the resources who help the new user. The email reflector has been a big improvement in some ways over the Forum because it is much more real time. It has been a great help to FlexRadio because many of you know more than we do about specific applications of the radio. The Forum may actually be better from a FAQ standpoint but it can become out of date very quickly as the software evolves. Since the reflector started, the traffic on the website Forum has gone down dramatically. This indicates to methat the immediacy of the reflector meets the needs of the larger population better than the Forum. However, the Forum has the ability to organize archive topics in a much more user friendly way than the reflector. It also has the capability to imbed easily graphics. With that said, I am very interested in hearing your thoughts on how we can better serve the diverse needs of the neophyte to the advanced experimenter. All are important the hobby of amateur radio. I would like to know what you think about the following: 1) Should we create a separate reflector for "Beta Software and Experimental Topics?" The proposal would keep this reflector with a general interest and supportfocus. 2) How can we better utilize the website Forum, which now has fairly low traffic? Would it help to have volunteer moderators who monitor the Forum to make sure people get their questions answered? 3) How do we address the misperception of product instability caused bythe never ending improvements that will come in the software over the years? 4) How do we make sure that new users and potential users feel comfortable posting their questions? How do we make sure they get the answers they need? Your comments are welcome. 73, Gerald Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR President FlexRadio Systems 8900 Marybank Drive Austin, TX 78750 Ph: 512-250-8595 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.flex-radio.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric EllisonSent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:19 PMTo: Flexradio@flex-radio.bizSubject: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff Folks A Reflector member contributed a PM suggesting that I clarify some of the terms the I, and others have been using on the Reflector since the acronyms can be daunting to recent members reading. I find this a very reasonable request. Ill start with that: FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) An integrated circuit which is essentially a hardware etch-a-sketch. About 4 manufacturers make them. You actually write a program with tools offered by the manufacturer and create your own customized integrated circuit. It can be just about anything, from a microprocessor to a high speed counter, to a light switch, when you press the button it lights the light. Price range is $10 to $1800. It is an order of magnitude beyond a PIC (programmable interface controller). If you are a C programmer it is worth a look. Beyond that you will have to read for yourself about these digital diamonds in the rough Xylo (product name from FPGA4FUN) Is an experimental FPGA board with resources like USB (Universal Serial Buss), VGA, (Video Graphic Adapter), and other common I/O tools on board, with drivers on board to experiment with FPGAs. Offered by FPGA4FUN.com. Plug it into a USB port on a computer and begin experimenting with FPGA for about $100. A hobbiest thingy like ham radio. Saxo (product name from FPGA4FUN) A variant of the Xylo above. The website also has experiments and products such as an oscilloscope which plugs into the parent board. Not a joke! I intend to buy the scope and use it in the shack! SVN A program which integrates into the file system on your computer to access files stored on a server (can be on the same machine). SVN stands for Subversion. In the simplest form it could be
Re: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff
At 06:09 AM 2/3/2006, Larry Loen wrote:
Eric Ellison wrote:
Now
Gerald K5SDR suggested on Teamspeak session a couple of weeks ago
that we have separate Reflectors for the technospeak guys from the
n
snip
I think we over-use the reflector. For newer users, I think a forum
format is better. Things lay out in a much more organized fashion.
People can easily find five month old posts by topic. This is much more
important for someone new who are less interested in what's currently
under discussion than on topics that were probably covered (if they
could but know it) six months ago. There's the manuals and any
supplemental material we create as well. Even the archive of this is not
an ideal way to find what you want. A real forum is going to be more
focussed.
I've got my fireproof suit on, so...
Forums and maillists are both horrid for product support type
purposes. What you really want, but is expensive and tedious to produce,
is someone skilled to go through all those posts and produce useful
documents and applications notes, and an index to them. Look at the MS
Knowledgebase for an example. Someone has a problem, it gets solved, and
someone takes the time to write up a generalized answer, categorize it,
title it appropriately, add keywords, etc.
A mailing list is handy when you have a quick question, you get the answer,
and the thread dies (and hopefully, the apnote/faq editor adds the question
to the BIG list). Mailing lists are also nice for philosophical
discussions (which are basically group conversations), but require much
editing of the product to winnow out the useful data (if any). Mailing
lists also have a context and regular players: after a while, you know
who's going to comment on various things, where they're coming from,
etc. New entrants to the mailing list sometimes find this intimidating,
because its sort of like learning Japanese: so much is implied based on
shared cultural experience.
Forums are sort of a middle ground, in that they tend to be sorted into
threads (especially if well moderated, and the moderator moves posts
between forums when appropriate), but when they grow past a certain size,
even with a search engine, you can't find what you need. The real problem
with forums is that they don't have a convenient way to look at what's
new in the past couple days without looking in all the forums. You just
get a last post in this forum on MM-DD- by user at the top
level. Forums can work really, really well when run by a manufacturer, and
are used for product support, because they can properly categorize the
posts, link right to where the answer is (i.e. which manual do I look in?),
and create new forums when a new topic pops up.
One thing that I have noticed on at least one mailing list (Tesla Coil
Mailing List - http://www.pupman.com/) is that new entrants will often come
in with a simple question. The question could no doubt be answered by
looking at the list archives (which are searchable), but, really, the
question is more of a request for introduction to the list community. It's
the responses to the question that determine if the list is friendly or
cliqueish. The best responses are of the form: {
Here's the answer, and more detail is available at URL of specific post,
or you can search the list for these keywords:A B and C.
}
The worst answers in mailing lists are: It's in the archives, go search,
and stop wasting our time or Not again, that's been beaten to death, go
away. {On the TCML, that's reserved for screeds about free energy or
Tunguska or I have a new theory of physics and Maxwell as all wrong.}
Think of a mailing list as a big meeting at a conference, or even the local
ham club meeting. When you walk in the room, there will be small clumps of
people who all know each other, and are talking about their latest projects
and activities. Then, there's a huge mass of unaffiliated people who are
drifting around on the edges. A lot depends on whether the people in the
clumps make an effort to include the others, and how a newbie with a
question is treated. Or, maybe, it's like a high school dance, with all the
girls standing in packs talking to each other, with the guys standing
around the edges watching, but that's perhaps a bit extreme (although, I
have participated in lists that were much like that)
Personally, I like the Flex mailing list.
Jim W6RMK
Re: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff
Hi All Thanks for the tutorial Eric. I'm an old dog, but hopefully no too old to leasrn new tricks. I agree that fragmenting the list is not a good idea. Learning by immersion is good IMHO. Those of us who are not as software savvy have a unique opportunity to learn from some real pros. We just have to suck it up and ask questions because not everyone has had the same impetus or opportunities to absorb the same knowledge as anyone else. Everyone on the list has some gem of wisdom that others can profit from and the the opposite applies. I don't think I've run into anyone on this list who will look down their nose at anybody for asking questions. Bill AD5OL Eric Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/02/06 11:18PM Folks A Reflector member contributed a PM suggesting that I clarify some of the terms the I, and others have been using on the Reflector since the acronyms can be daunting to recent members reading. I find this a very reasonable request. I'll start with that: FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) An integrated circuit which is essentially a hardware etch-a-sketch. About 4 manufacturers make them. You actually write a program with tools offered by the manufacturer and create your own customized integrated circuit. It can be just about anything, from a microprocessor to a high speed counter, to a light switch, when you press the button it lights the light. Price range is $10 to $1800. It is an order of magnitude beyond a PIC (programmable interface controller). If you are a C programmer it is worth a look. Beyond that you will have to read for yourself about these digital diamonds in the rough Xylo (product name from FPGA4FUN) Is an experimental FPGA board with resources like USB (Universal Serial Buss), VGA, (Video Graphic Adapter), and other common I/O tools on board, with drivers on board to experiment with FPGA's. Offered by FPGA4FUN.com. Plug it into a USB port on a computer and begin experimenting with FPGA for about $100. A hobbiest thingy like ham radio. Saxo (product name from FPGA4FUN) A variant of the Xylo above. The website also has experiments and products such as an oscilloscope which plugs into the parent board. Not a joke! I intend to buy the scope and use it in the shack! SVN A program which integrates into the file system on your computer to access files stored on a server (can be on the same machine). SVN stands for Subversion. In the simplest form it could be a letter to your mother which you edit and make changes to over a period of time. Oh Oh you made a mistake or don't like the current version! Alas, you wish you had the last version. Tough luck! You are stuck with the current and you spent HOURS on it! Subversion lets you look at the last X versions and even cut and paste between versions. THEY are labeled versions, and there is always one current version. Change scenario to 5 folks teaming up to edit the Flex-Radio user manual, cause manuals are their thing! All 5 have server and local access to the manual and make changes. (Pretty Confusing! And we tried this on Teamspeak!). SVN organizes this collaborative effort by keeping previous versions, and facilities to merge various versions. SYNERGY! The SVN program written by experts and offering it for GPL and free have given us the tool to operate on a document project as a TEAM! You don't need to know how it works, just how to use it for your benefit. This IS the subject of this weeks Teamspeak forum and our expert and SVN server provider Dale - WA8SRA will be there to answer questions. I am going to ram it down your microphone! It IS a GOOD thing for team collaboration on any team document project! Now Gerald - K5SDR suggested on Teamspeak session a couple of weeks ago that we have separate Reflectors for the technospeak guys from the new users who might be 'turned off by the jargon and the 'technospeak.. I have mixed feelings about it. What do you think? This is ham radio, but also it is ham radio on the move and a new exciting 'edge' of technology. I don't think we should be divided at this point. If you are a new ham and don't have an interest in SVN-XYLO-SAXO-FPGA then punch up the next message. Personally I am currently bypassing most messages AM related. I don't think NOW is the time to divide the momentum on this Reflector. Ham radio, just like this forum is a mixture of many interests. If you have an interest in Snowbounce Mike King - KM0T is here to answer your questions! He will see messages in that interest area. I have NEVER seen Bob - N4HY not respond to a message on Linux. It's all a part of the future of ham radio! We are not ready to separate except in the 'subject' line! Just my 2 cents. Thanks Eric2 - AA4SW
Re: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff
Hi Gerald -- My $0.02: First, I think the mailing list(s) are a huge improvement over the forums. It's an issue of push vs. pull -- I'm much more likely to read an email that ends up in my inbox than I am to remember to go to the forum and work my way through the postings. Forums are great for long-term availability of info, but (IMHO) they are a horrible approach to near-real-time discussion (and, for me at least, the email interface is a lot more efficient way to read and reply; there are far fewer clicks involved). Second, I think you might consider three reflectors: flex-radio for general, non-technical discussion, flex-radio-beta for discussion of beta bugs and features, and flex-radio-futures for the Xylo/FPGA/Linux etc., etc. conversations. If you only want two lists, I'd separate out the beta discussions. Moving discussion of beta version problems/requests/etc. to its own list would reduce both traffic *and* is this a finished product or not confusion on the main list. 73, John Gerald Youngblood wrote: Eric E., Thanks for some very succinct explanations. Let me put forth a couple of concerns we have about how to best use the reflector and forum resources. Due to the nature of a software radio, we will always be releasing new beta software that will have bugs. The discussion on this reflector of beta bugs has been a huge source of confusion to new and potential customers. It gives the impression that the radio is unstable or unfinished. Five years from now this will still be an issue unless you the users and we the manufacturer have run out of good ideas. Somehow I doubt that. Our wish list is longer today than it was three years ago when we shipped serial number uno. We have thought of creating a Beta and Experimental Reflector to separate the discussion of the new and experimental stuff from that of the officially released software. It could potentially make it less intimidating to the new user and the potential customer. I agree that splitting the reflector could dilute the resources who help the new user. The email reflector has been a big improvement in some ways over the Forum because it is much more real time. It has been a great help to FlexRadio because many of you know more than we do about specific applications of the radio. The Forum may actually be better from a FAQ standpoint but it can become out of date very quickly as the software evolves. Since the reflector started, the traffic on the website Forum has gone down dramatically. This indicates to me that the immediacy of the reflector meets the needs of the larger population better than the Forum. However, the Forum has the ability to organize archive topics in a much more user friendly way than the reflector. It also has the capability to imbed easily graphics. With that said, I am very interested in hearing your thoughts on how we can better serve the diverse needs of the neophyte to the advanced experimenter. All are important the hobby of amateur radio. I would like to know what you think about the following: 1) Should we create a separate reflector for Beta Software and Experimental Topics? The proposal would keep this reflector with a general interest and support focus. 2) How can we better utilize the website Forum, which now has fairly low traffic? Would it help to have volunteer moderators who monitor the Forum to make sure people get their questions answered? 3) How do we address the misperception of product instability caused by the never ending improvements that will come in the software over the years? 4) How do we make sure that new users and potential users feel comfortable posting their questions? How do we make sure they get the answers they need? Your comments are welcome. 73, Gerald Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR President FlexRadio Systems 8900 Marybank Drive Austin, TX 78750 Ph: 512-250-8595 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.flex-radio.com http://www.flex-radio.com/ _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Ellison Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:19 PM To: Flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff Folks A Reflector member contributed a PM suggesting that I clarify some of the terms the I, and others have been using on the Reflector since the acronyms can be daunting to recent members reading. I find this a very reasonable request. I'll start with that: FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) An integrated circuit which is essentially a hardware etch-a-sketch. About 4 manufacturers make them. You actually write a program with tools offered by the manufacturer and create your own customized integrated circuit. It can be just about anything, from a microprocessor to a high speed counter, to a light switch, when you press the button it lights the light. Price range is $10 to $1800. It is an order of magnitude beyond a PIC
Re: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff
I have passed control and ownership of this reflector to FlexRadio officially. I no longer own it and the following are my opinions. Eric's paragraph is not 2 cents worth, it is a mountain of gold. I like one community, end of story. Open your mouth (or keyboard) and ask a question if you do not understand something. Bob N4HY Eric Ellison wrote: Now Gerald – K5SDR suggested on Teamspeak session a couple of weeks ago that we have separate Reflectors for the technospeak guys from the “new users” who might be ‘turned off by the jargon” and the ‘technospeak”…. I have mixed feelings about it. What do you think? This is ham radio, but also it is ham radio on the move and a new exciting ‘edge’ of technology. I don’t think we should be divided at this point. If you are a new ham and don’t have an interest in SVN-XYLO-SAXO-FPGA then punch up the next message. Personally I am currently bypassing most messages AM related. I don’t think NOW is the time to divide the momentum on this Reflector. Ham radio, just like this forum is a mixture of many interests. If you have an interest in “Snowbounce” Mike King – KM0T is here to answer your questions! He will see messages in that interest area. I have NEVER seen Bob – N4HY not respond to a message on Linux. It’s all a part of the future of ham radio! We are not ready to separate except in the ‘subject’ line! Just my 2 cents. Thanks Eric2 – AA4SW
Re: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff
Gerald and All, The whole area of a SDR is one that is going to require a lot of technical hand-holding for the average ham, so you need to address this fact. On the subject of having two reflectors, I was and still am, on a reflector about antennas where there was a lot of technical talk that some of the users found hard to understand, so they split the reflector into two, one for users who had operational questions and one for experts. After a month or so, there was no one on the users' reflector. I can see that happening here. When I was setting up my SDR system I had a lot of questions and I never failed to get answers, most from some of the experts on the reflector. So if you split the reflectors, you risk the chance that some of the most knowledgeable persons won't be on the users' reflector to answer the questions of beginners. As for the beginners using the non-beta releases, that lasts for only so long. It is normal for hams who are technically inclined to use the latest and most feature full release. Some suggestions. Use the forums to keep track of on a continuing basis, all the technical developments. New users should be encouraged to go to the forums to find out the status of latest developments and also to receive answers to reoccurring technical questions. Good marketing too. In sure you can have enough volunteers to keep the forums current. As for Beta software and reporting bugs, I feel that is a unpleasant reality and I don't know how to get around the appearance that the software is unstable. Perhaps more frequent stable revisions with fewer new features, thus fewer betas for each stable release. I realize that documentation has to follow the stable releases, but perhaps every time you make a minor release, like 6.1, 6.2, you post pages to update the manual, and then reissue the manual only on major releases, like on 7.0, 8.0 73, Chas, W1CG At 10:21 AM 2/3/2006, Gerald Youngblood wrote: Eric E., Thanks for some very succinct explanations. Let me put forth a couple of concerns we have about how to best use the reflector and forum resources. Due to the nature of a software radio, we will always be releasing new beta software that will have bugs. The discussion on this reflector of beta bugs has been a huge source of confusion to new and potential customers. It gives the impression that the radio is unstable or unfinished. Five years from now this will still be an issue unless you the users and we the manufacturer have run out of good ideas. Somehow I doubt that. Our wish list is longer today than it was three years ago when we shipped serial number uno. We have thought of creating a Beta and Experimental Reflector to separate the discussion of the new and experimental stuff from that of the officially released software. It could potentially make it less intimidating to the new user and the potential customer. I agree that splitting the reflector could dilute the resources who help the new user. The email reflector has been a big improvement in some ways over the Forum because it is much more real time. It has been a great help to FlexRadio because many of you know more than we do about specific applications of the radio. The Forum may actually be better from a FAQ standpoint but it can become out of date very quickly as the software evolves. Since the reflector started, the traffic on the website Forum has gone down dramatically. This indicates to me that the immediacy of the reflector meets the needs of the larger population better than the Forum. However, the Forum has the ability to organize archive topics in a much more user friendly way than the reflector. It also has the capability to imbed easily graphics. With that said, I am very interested in hearing your thoughts on how we can better serve the diverse needs of the neophyte to the advanced experimenter. All are important the hobby of amateur radio. I would like to know what you think about the following: 1) Should we create a separate reflector for Beta Software and Experimental Topics? The proposal would keep this reflector with a general interest and support focus. 2) How can we better utilize the website Forum, which now has fairly low traffic? Would it help to have volunteer moderators who monitor the Forum to make sure people get their questions answered? 3) How do we address the misperception of product instability caused by the never ending improvements that will come in the software over the years? 4) How do we make sure that new users and potential users feel comfortable posting their questions? How do we make sure they get the answers they need? Your comments are welcome. 73, Gerald Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR President FlexRadio Systems 8900 Marybank Drive Austin, TX 78750 Ph: 512-250-8595 Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:
Re: [Flexradio] Beginners - Experts - Terminology and stuff
Hmmm... perhaps a two tier distribution of beta's is worth considering.Initially distribute a beta drop in source form only and let the bleeding edge people that like playing with such things build it and see how it does. If it looks good after a week or so, release a binary distribution of that code for the folks a bit behind the bleeding edge. If it did not do so good, don't release it and fix the things that did not look so good, add more feature/function and try again with a source drop. Would mean fewer binary drops and less churn for the folks that don't quite want to be at the bleeding edge. It would be inclusive in that anyone who wants the absolute latest and greatest could get it, but they'd have to do some work to do so. To succeed a bleeding edge contingent of people would have to spring up -- I suspect I'd be interested in pulling source drops as they come out - not sure how many others would be. Probably need on the order of a half dozen or dozen bleeding edge people for such a scheme to work. Just a thought, Cheers, Bill (kd5tfd) At 09:21 PM 2/3/2006, Charles Greene wrote: Gerald and All, ... edited ... As for Beta software and reporting bugs, I feel that is a unpleasant reality and I don't know how to get around the appearance that the software is unstable. Perhaps more frequent stable revisions with fewer new features, thus fewer betas for each stable release. ...edited...
